CAP 1 Smogon's First "Create a Pokemon": Syclant Testing

[eric the espeon]

1) Get rid of Tail Glow
If it gets the TG in, Syclant is just too powerful. Tail Glow doesn't make sense. Tail Glow is basically a "special move" for a select few pokemon, and Syclant should not be one of them.

at first i agreed with this totaly, but now i see i was probably wrong. it helps syclant but i dont think it makes him broken, however i think a poll where only those who have had 15+ battles with syclant and decent batleing experience can vote would help.

2) Syclants speed should not be 121
The extra 1 point appears overly-contrived; just make it 120. It should not be that fast anyway with those attacking stats (110-115 speed commonly mentioned as acceptable). Nothing else in the game is that fast, and hits that hard from both sides, with that much movepool.

its part of the stat spread, but it does seam odd... i dunno about this one.

3) Reduce the size and variety of the movepool
It can do just about anything. It has the biggest movepool this side of Mew. The only pokemon with that much movepool variety are things like Clefable, and Clefable doesn't have stats like Syclant.

dissagree. its movepool is fine.

4) Get rid of Fire Fang
A Bug/Ice pokemon should not have a fire move, regardless of the concept or the sprite.

i dont like the fact it can use a fire move, i think it should go.

5) Mountaineer is broken
In some cases, it removes a 4x weakness, which is unprecedented in the game. It eliminates Stealth Rock, which is ridiculous for a Bug/Ice pokemon that should take 50% from SR.

Mountineer is not broken, but it is contrived. i think a poll may help, maybe my "ice shell" idea has a chance after all?

1) Do nothing.
We can all cite many examples of Pokemon that had a certain perception when they were introduced, which later turned out to be false. Maybe that will happen here.

i think waiting is good, but we must do something if people continue to have these opinions.

2) Re-open/Re-do several of the Syclant polls and invite all those that have playtested to participate.
Now that we have playtesting experience, the discussion and results in the polls may be significantly different.

3) Open some very specific polls about certain aspects of the pokemon and "fine tune" Syclant.
Perhaps the first poll could be a vote on which aspects we should "fine tune". Take a few of the top vote-getting issues, and sub-poll from there.

this is kinda the same as 2, but a bit better. i like this idea.

If we do any form of polling, then Cooper might want to put his mini-mod hat back on and lead the charge. If we don't change anything now, then we need to figure out a plan for proving/disproving these complaints.

ask him if he wants to, if not someone else will.

 

[NatKing]

I agree with Doug, on all of those points.

Syclant should NOT get an ability that negates passive damage on the switch-in, under any circumstances. I believe that's what you meant by Ice Shell, Eric?

 

[Luck]

The stats are unchangeable that is the stats the community as whole picked.I did not see the movepool thread for syclant but i know there is some question about tail glow.

Mountaineer is fine,So far,people are going have to bring proof that mountaineer give syclant an fair advantage so far it does not.I have begun my syclant testing,so far scylant is proving to be very frail and i would hate to see it without mountaineer

Syclant so far doing what is suppose to be a part of the over used game and not dominating.It is early to change anything with syclant.My suggestion is and i am going to bold this Wait until 5 create a pokes are done then reassess the pokes.The mummy poke begin create now is high defense fighting which in essence counters syclant.Also it is safe guess that new fire type will be one of the next three pokes made it will probably counter syclant too.You may be fixing something that does not need to be fixed.Think about it

 

[eric the espeon]

I agree with Doug, on all of those points.

Syclant should NOT get an ability that negates passive damage on the switch-in, under any circumstances. I believe that's what you meant by Ice Shell, Eric?

not ALL passive damage, SR is already negated and only spikes + toxi spikes are blocked by ice shell that mountineer does not block. i think all rock attacks are more important than spikes on a pokemon with a 4x rock weak.

 

[Bull of Heaven]

I think that we should do nothing.

Syclant has already been created. We already took the time to carefully go over every detail. To me, it seems almost wrong to take something that we proudly finished and suddenly begin to change everything because a few people complained.

If the majority of the people wanted these changes, they would have voted for them in the polls. Some of the complainers missed the polls. Does this mean that they should be reopened? I don't think so. If you missed Syclant's polls, join the next ones. If we reopen the polls, they will never close because new complainers will take the places of any old ones we satisfy. We might remove Mountaineer just to see that someone read about it and wants it back. People need to just accept that we can't all be completely satisfied and that Syclant is what it is.

I think that Syclant should only be changed if it is proven to be broken, and so far, that has not happened. The last thing we need is for Ice Shell to come back because someone just can't accept that the majority of the voters didn't want Syclant to have it. If we open the polls again, every one person will think that his/her complaint is too important to be outvoted, and we'll be forced to go through poll after poll after poll.

As for Fire Fang, if Steelix can learn it, I see no reason for it to be removed from Syclant's movepool. A 4x weakness doesn't stop Dragonite from learning Ice Punch.

 

[Urza]

i do think that a reassesment of what syclant gets is in order, and a lot of the things it ended up with are rather ridiculous. it's an incredibly powerful poke, definitely, and there isn't anything wrong with that, but still, there does have to be some respect for the limits of the game. very few things have the sweeping potential that syclant has with very limited set up, and many of them are very centralizing (garchomp, gengar, salamence and infernape all come to mind).

that being said, i like luck's suggestion of waiting a bit before reassessing. since this is it's own metagame, it needs time to actually be a metagame. perhaps if the create-a-pokemon polls begin to move quicker as the community becomes more experienced with them, this process can get moving.

just a few thoughts...

 

[indianunit02]

Once he's summoned on to the field and starts boosting up he's near unstoppable. The only thing bad with syclant is that he's hard to summon. For this reason alone I feel that (although he may be powerful) he's not uber material because of his frailty. Still i do feel he does need some tweaking. The only thing i would change with syclant is his movepool which seems to accomodate far too many good moves for him. The other suggestions as posted previously are also good ideas including the fact that we should continue to test him. I will continue to play with him to see if he really is as powerful as everyone says he is.

 

[Instinctive]

Having played with and against Syclant numerous times now, I must say:

Fire Fang has never been used by anybody anyway, may as well ditch it for flavor.

As good as Syclant is, anything physical is countered well by Steelix, Metagross, Zong, Jirachi, Skarm. Special can be countered by all three aforementioned Steel/Psychics.


Overall, I think Syclant is well balanced. Remember Mountaineer does NOT remove a 4x weak. It stops it for the switch-in. The switch in. The switch in. Get it? Any other turn, a rock attack destroys Syclant.

121 speed is a bit strange. knock it down to 120, or even 115 for a bit of balance if you are concerned.

 

[RaikouLover]

scylant is not broken in the slightest. Any strong steel type kills him off.

 

[Hyra]

I think that we should do nothing.

Syclant has already been created. We already took the time to carefully go over every detail. To me, it seems almost wrong to take something that we proudly finished and suddenly begin to change everything because a few people complained.

If the majority of the people wanted these changes, they would have voted for them in the polls. Some of the complainers missed the polls. Does this mean that they should be reopened? I don't think so. If you missed Syclant's polls, join the next ones. If we reopen the polls, they will never close because new complainers will take the places of any old ones we satisfy. We might remove Mountaineer just to see that someone read about it and wants it back. People need to just accept that we can't all be completely satisfied and that Syclant is what it is.

I think that Syclant should only be changed if it is proven to be broken, and so far, that has not happened. The last thing we need is for Ice Shell to come back because someone just can't accept that the majority of the voters didn't want Syclant to have it. If we open the polls again, every one person will think that his/her complaint is too important to be outvoted, and we'll be forced to go through poll after poll after poll.

As for Fire Fang, if Steelix can learn it, I see no reason for it to be removed from Syclant's movepool. A 4x weakness doesn't stop Dragonite from learning Ice Punch.

I agree entirely with this, except we might want to tweak all of the Pokemon a little after we have like 20 or so of them. This will give us a better idea of what is balanced and what isn't. Of course, I mean only the moves. Ability and Stats went through many polls, those should never be revoked. They were decided on and are the heart of Syclant. Changing any of these essentially gives us a new Pokemon entirely. I'm sorry you missed the polls, but these options won around 66% to 33% in the polls. Look it up if you don't believe me. Why should some people who weren't even here (and in some cases not even a member of Smogon at the time)?

 

[DougJustDoug]

Just because I posted several common complaints, does not mean I am advocating any changes in particular. In fact, I think Syclant is just fine as it is. If I changed anything, I would change the speed. The 121 is just begging for criticism. But, I don't think that extra point is affecting its playability very much either way. I would not change Mountaineer one bit. If for no other reason, than the fact that I've spent so much time getting it programmed correctly ;-)

As I said in my post, I think we have a "Perception Problem" with Syclant. It wouldn't be a very big deal, if the server hadn't exploded in popularity. My original expectation was that the server would allow a few of us from the CAP project to test out our creations. I really did not expect to have thousands of users and thousands of battles a day. But, since it has happened, this little fakemon we created has become a very visible billboard for the CAP Project, and by extension -- Smogon. Right now, I don't think the perception is that this is a brilliant creation by the deep-thinking pokemon experts at Smogon. I think a widely-held perception is that we created a completely broken pokemon and we must be brain-dead to think otherwise.

The question is, "Do we really care what people think?"

The contrarians amongst us probably say, "Fuck all the dumb-ass noobs that pull a drive-by on our server and talk shit about our pokemon!" I think we should pay a little more heed. Not because the pokemon is, in fact, broken. But, because all this server traffic has me thinking that we have chanced upon something that is bigger than we ever expected.

There are LOTS of modified Shoddy servers out there. Several of them have special moves, rules, etc. But people aren't going to those servers. They are coming to our server. And they're coming in droves. I don't know the reason why. Maybe it's the affiliation with Smogon. Maybe the "Create-A-Pokemon" name is so intriguing that people can't resist the urge to check it out. Maybe it's just the idea of really battling with a new pokemon. Maybe they don't like Official. It's probably a combination of all of the above. But, the sheer numbers have made me readjust my thinking on this whole thing.

I think we should do something to manage the perception problem with Syclant. One way to do that is to change Syclant. But, as it has been stated, people will always bitch. If we accede to every little complaint, we'll never stop changing this thing.

But that is not the only way to help manage the problem. Maybe we simply advertise the process and/or standard by which changes will be warranted. What are the criteria that determine if a pokemon is "broken"? I have no idea how to answer that question. But this is a large group of smart people. I'm sure we can come up with something.

So far, I've been asking for logs; with some hope that might allow us to have a discussion based on tangible data. Very few logs have been forthcoming. Porky is the only one I recall that has done so. I'm trying to write some reports that might shed a little light on the situation. Unfortunately, that's going to take a while.

In the meantime, what is the point of our playtesting? Certain individuals are getting battle experience with Syclant. But, based on the discussions, it doesn't seem like we are really getting any further than we did when it was all theorymon. A bunch of people think Syclant is fine, and a bunch of people think it is broken.

I don't think we should say "Syclant is set in stone. No changes will be made. EVER!" I don't think anyone is actually advocating that. So, let's figure out how changes might be made. What's the time frame? What are the criteria? How will the change process be handled? Once we get that down, we can make it known to everyone. At least that way there is visibility to the process, and that might stem the negative perception.

It won't stop the complaining, but it will give us a concrete response. It's a helluva lot better than the current back and forth. "Syclant is broken!" "No it's not!" "Yes it is!" "No it's not!"........... ugh.

 

[Sunday]

Everyone needs to realise one thing here, 121 speed is a very important number. This allows it to reach 375 speed with a +Spe nature, and as we all know 373 speed is a very importand number to be able to reach, expecially on a sweeper. Please don't nuter it to 120, I do not think people realise what big a difference that could actually make!

Syclant needs to be able to outspeed the base 120's (Dugtrio, Alakazam and Sceptile) because if he can not it will add quite a few Pokemon to the useable revenge-killer list.

 

[Rena22]

Syclant needs to be able to outspeed the base 120's (Dugtrio, Alakazam and Sceptile)

No it doesn't. Dugtrio, Alakazam and Sceptile all fear Ice Shard and would all be forced to run +Speed natures to even have a chance of outrunning Syclants that don't run Ice Shard, thus lowering the damage they can do to other pokes.

 

[Sunday]

Sceptile often ends up with a Substitute, and Subseeding varities always carry Hidden Power Fire. Forcing them into a speed tie just adds one more Pokemon to the list of ones that Syclant can't revenge kill, and that's a list that we have witnessed rapidly decline as long as we have had the server up.

Also Dugtrio similarily uses Sucker Punch, which I am quite certain is a 1HKO, expecially if Syclant is running -Def nature.

 

[Time Mage]

Still, I think 121 speed was a cheap choice. Just giving it ONE more base point so it can outrun 120s in the most efficient way doesn't strike me as a fair decision. 120 speed works just as fine, since, as mentioned already, both Sceptile and Dugtrio fear Ice Shard, and Alakazam could use some help by not getting yet another clear counter.

In fact, the only changes I'd advocate is a slight reduction of its movepool and changing its speed to 120. I think those changes would be for good.

But anyway, from my experience, Syclant is not broken. It is, however, really dangerous and capable of sweeping entire teams once it sets up.

 

[Sunday]

I think, however, people may be forgetting the entire reason people voted for that particular base stat spread. Was the speed the selling point? I need to recheck the thread but if people voted for this distribution based on the speed stat it would be blaspheme to change it...

If you check these threads, you will see that 120+ Speed was one of the selling points of both the winning stat spreads!

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33784
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33578

Both of hem has a little bit more than 120 speed for a reason, and we voted for them based on that! Mario with Lazers reads: Speed: 121 (being Naive with 160 EVs, beats any Infernape)

Hyra's reads: Speed is an awesome little stat. This guy will either sit nicely above the 120 Speed group or the 115 Speed group. With 123 Speed, he could also run an attack boosting nature if desired, because it would sit at 345 with Max Speed.

 

[Time Mage]

Votes are done when everything is theorymon, and incomplete theorymon, at that. I'm not saying the pokémon should be completely overhauled, but after a few more ones are added, everything should get revised and tweaked.


While polls have to be respected, if we are aiming to make truly competitive and balanced pokémon, we should tweak them after enough playtesting. A feedback process is necessary to make them worthy of consideration, in my opinion. It'd be foolish to think that polls alone will make the pokémon perfectly viable, taking into account all battle situations. A reality check is necessary.

Also, mind you, I was very worried about Syclant being too good before testing it, so it works both ways. It serves to detect unbalances, and to realize some things aren't as terrible as they sounded.

 

[Sunday]

You say that, but where is your evidence 121 speed is broken? Everything so far has just been "We should change it it doesn't seem 'right'" What kind of a reason is that? People aren't trying to change it because it is broken, or it causing problems, it's because they believe it doesn't fit!

 

[Time Mage]

And that's why I say that, while I don't like the 121 speed, I'm not proposing to change it. Rather, what I say is that we wait, test it thoroughly along with other CAP pokémon, and then, revise them all when enough battle experience is collected.

One thing is what I would like to do, and the other is what I think it has to be done. And I try to distinguish both.

 

[indianunit02]

The more i start to read these posts the more i start to agree with lord sunday and dougjustdoug. If you think about I think syclant having base 121 speed is like garchomp having base 102 speed. Those extra 2 points allow it to outrun all base 100 speed pokemon showing that it's a fast pokemon. Syclant having base 121 speed shows that it is faster than all base 120 speed pokemon also showing he's a fast pokemon. Eh just a thought.

As I said in my post, I think we have a "Perception Problem" with Syclant.

I have to say i totally agree with this. Our bitching and moaning primarily stems from the fact that syclant "looks" powerful when he probably isn't.

 

[Sunday]

The more i start to read these posts the more i start to agree with lord sunday and dougjustdoug.

I can't believe he read my posts and still thought I supported cutting down the speed IV. My stance is the exact opposite... >.<

 

[Luck]

I think, however, people may be forgetting the entire reason people voted for that particular base stat spread. Was the speed the selling point? I need to recheck the thread but if people voted for this distribution based on the speed stat it would be blaspheme to change it...

If you check these threads, you will see that 120+ Speed was one of the selling points of both the winning stat spreads!

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33784
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33578

Both of hem has a little bit more than 120 speed for a reason, and we voted for them based on that! Mario with Lazers reads: Speed: 121 (being Naive with 160 EVs, beats any Infernape)

Hyra's reads: Speed is an awesome little stat. This guy will either sit nicely above the 120 Speed group or the 115 Speed group. With 123 Speed, he could also run an attack boosting nature if desired, because it would sit at 345 with Max Speed.

Thanks for posting that the two final sets had speeds 121 and 123 proving the community on whole wanted the higher speed. Read the thread people it shows people wanting fast pokemon possible because they taught it would be frail(glass cannon).When the community picks something we should be very careful to change it.Things should pretty much be consensus among people before we look to change something and so far that is not the case.

 

[indianunit02]

I can't believe he read my posts and still thought I supported cutting down the speed IV. My stance is the exact opposite... >.<

thats not what i said. I said it shouldn't be changed. I think you misinterperted my post. that or i said something wrong.

 

[Jenigmat]

At the moment the only real objection to keeping 121 base speed is that it "looks weird". It's not like the 121 has any real reason against it other than being out of place. And with things in game like Electivire's Attack stat (123), Dragonite's Attack (134), and Garchomp's Speed (102), there is a precedent set for 121 Speed. There is no real reason to switch. Of course, anything with base 125+ is still outspeeding Syclant, and competitively lowering the base speed to 120 will only change 50% of the battles that involve both Syclant and a base 120 with the same nature. Admittedly, it won't change too much. For two of the more important Base 120s, Dugtrio and Sceptile, the fact that Syclant can go first doesn't change, because Ice Shard will take a nice chunk out of each.

 

[Urza]

i don't think that reopening some of those stat numbers would be inappropriate if it came to a community thing, based on playtesting, and up for community debate. but not now. at a later date. and make it a community thing.