So many weather teams... Is non-weather viable?

[Electrolyte]

Non weather teams aren't reliant on weather like weather teams are, which in itself is another team slot since weather teams must run a perma-inducer on their team.

This is true, but the whole point of weather is to 'make up' for the slot of the inducer AS WELL AS give even more advantages to the team. The advantages Rain can bring for a team should often outweigh the losses used to fit in an inducer with good synergy- and it often DOES make up for it- which is why weather is so popular. If the slot lost for weather brought more bad to teams than good from the weather boost, I'm sure weather would be used a whole lot less.

If you put in numbers, which usually only work on paper yet still provide an accurate view of advantages of weather teams, it mught look something like this:

Total Amount of weather boosts x power of boost - 1 (Inducer) = Net advantage of using that weather. (in pokemon)

Let's plug in some numbers. Say, there's a standard Poli / Rachi / Torn-T / Keldeo / Latios / Rotom-W Rain team. (I'm using Rain since it's largely regarded as the best field effect) The amount of offensive boosts would be, not counting inducers since they are the 'negative':

Keldeo's HPump
Tornadus's Hurricane
Latios's Surf
Rotom's HPump

Now, times power of boosts:
1 HPump x 1.5 Water boost
1 Hurricane x 10/7 Accuracy boost
1 Surf x 1.5 Water boost
1 Hpump x 1.5 Water boost

Add it all up and we get 3 x 1.5 + 1 x 10/7 = approx 6.

Now, -1 for Politoed = 6-1= 5.

So, if all that was used throughtout the match was Rain boosted moves, facing a team with Rain would be like facing the team with FIVE WHOLE MORE POKEMON than if they didn't use Rain, because pf the boosts Rain gave. Getting hit by 2 Keldeo's HPumps in Rain would equal getting hit by 3 Keldeo HPumps out of Rain. 2 Latios Surfs in Rain = 3 out of it. The Rain effectively almost doubles the amount of offensive 'pokemon' you face.

Now, I recognize that this method isn't the most accurate way to display weather advantages- as ther are many other factors involved that have not been accounted for. However, it does show one thing- that the boost weather gives often far outweighs the disadvantages of using weather inducers, as long as the team uses the weather efficiently to some point.

For demonstrative purposes, I'll do a Hail calculation with Aboma / Kyu / Tenta / Reun / Conk / Heatran

moves boosted by Hail:
Kyu's Blizzard

Boost:
1 Blizzard x 10/7 Accuracy boost = 10/7 -1 to account for Abomasnow: 3/7. This number is a lot less than the amount for Rain- but it's sti higher than 0 / negative. Hail brings advantages, but often not nearly as much as Rain.

 

[Shurtugal]

I only meant that in this respect Weatherless teams have something weather teams can't brag. Weatherless teams should be able to combat every kind if team whereas weather teams struggle to defeat opposing weather because of their reliance to their own weather . Weatherless function despite opposing weather; which was my point.

I did not mean to imply that weather teams are not viable because they have huge advantage vs non weather teams, I only meant to point out that Weatherless teams have non reliance as sort of a niche.

 

[Deglas]

@Electrolyte: Quintupling isn't quite accurate in the example you gave. The Pokemon of the rain team may have offensive boosts, but they do not take hits as if they were five times as many. Additionally, they do not get extra moves to use for coverage/utility that adding more Pokemon to the team would bring. Also, single moves being boosted does not nessecarily mean that the Pokemon's offensive strength is boosted by the same factor.

 

[Electrolyte]

@Electrolyte: Quintupling isn't quite accurate in the example you gave. The Pokemon of the rain team may have offensive boosts, but they do not take hits as if they were five times as many. Additionally, they do not get extra moves to use for coverage/utility that adding more Pokemon to the team would bring. Also, single moves being boosted does not nessecarily mean that the Pokemon's offensive strength is boosted by the same factor.

I do realize that my equation isn't the most accurate way of displaying advantages, and I'm not sure how to phrase it in a better way but essentially if the pokemon were using only those moves that would be a pretty accurate way to show boosts.

Also, you can't disagree with the fact that weather DOES grant boosts in some way, so I was only trying to show the boosts in an understandable equation.

@shurtugal: I understand, I just used your statement to justify lol

I do agree that weather grants many boosts, but I think that weatherless 25 Pokemon teams would beat 5 Pokemon + 1 weather inducer teams 100% of the time, unless the 25 Pokemon team was used by an idiot.

Oh, right not quintuple, but almost double lol, math error; fixed

 

[Deglas]

I do agree that weather grants many boosts, but I think that weatherless 25 Pokemon teams would beat 5 Pokemon + 1 weather inducer teams 100% of the time, unless the 25 Pokemon team was used by an idiot.

 

[Shurtugal]

I also don't like that formula.


Just say this: rains benefits from nerfing certain attacks and decreasing damage to boosting water-type moves is supposed to make up for the inducer slot. Sun / Hail / Sands effects have the same objective. I think you overstate weather a bit, and I just want to put more emphasis on the reliance everyone seems to ignore.


Take that same rain team: you could say if sun is up its like losing the extra five Pokemon you had plus losing the weather-reliant polemon like Feraligatr and TornT

 

[Electrolyte]

Yes, you could add weakness to other teams for a more reliable formula, in fact I'm sure there's a lot I've missed, but I wanted to keep it simple and specifically address the idea that the poor quality of many inducers could possibly null the advantages of using weather.

 

[Luckstard.]

Non weather team?

Yes, it's possible, but so hard. That's why I'm expecting to drizzle and drought will be ban.

 

[yee]

I only meant that in this respect Weatherless teams have something weather teams can't brag. Weatherless teams should be able to combat every kind if team whereas weather teams struggle to defeat opposing weather because of their reliance to their own weather . Weatherless function despite opposing weather; which was my point.

I did not mean to imply that weather teams are not viable because they have huge advantage vs non weather teams, I only meant to point out that Weatherless teams have non reliance as sort of a niche.

One thing I personally think is very important to consider on a weatherless team is "Am I really not way better off against other weather if I just throw on TTar / Hippo?" For example Venusaur is no longer able to just clean house nearly the same way and the team will very likely function the same with or without sand, just less weak to Rain and Sun- I consider Sand teams non-weather these days.

 

[Shurtugal]

I actually agree with that, sand is like the weather used to keep you not as sun / rain weak imo, with the additional plus of SR and possible pursuit trapping (or phy wall for stall teams hippo, not to mention residual damage)

 

[verycoolguy]

Now, -1 for Politoed = 6-1= 5.

I usually don't think of Politoed as a forced slot space for the sake of aiding teammates, but more like a Pokemon with an ability that powers up its STAB by x1.5, making it a powerful threat on its own.

 

[blitzlefan]

If Gen VI adds even more weather abusers to increase even more the advantage of Weather > Nonweather, I'm really hoping Drizzle/Drought/Sand Stream/Snow Warning will be banned. Also, I remember a time back around HGSS to early BW1 when Sand was just overwhelmingly obnoxious, so if just Drizzle/Drought are banned, Sandstorm will increase in ubiquity and overwhelm the tier as well. IMO, Hail doesn't need the ban, but if all other weathers are banned, Hail should be too (at least in OU). As much as I like weather and its effectiveness, it really imposes a barrier on the creativity of teambuilding and viable pokes.

Also, Electrolyte has a point. Even though the mathematical advantages aren't perfect, the analogy still stands. With all the STAB boosts, accuracy boosts, neutering of Fire-moves, etc. that Rain brings to the field, it's hard/impossible to argue there are NO advantages of Rain > nonweather/every other weather. However, nonweather teams can/should slap on a Hail/Sand inducer because letting the opponent run free with their Rain while not running any way to change the weather is tilts the odds highly in their favor.

 

[Shurtugal]

Yeah but I also have a point; relying on weather gives you a disadvantage vs opposing weather and really puts stress on winning the WW. Sure rain members are powered up, but they're also downgraded by opposing Sun / Hail / Sand. I just feel that weathers hinderance is so overlooked. I feel that weather sort of balance each other out, with rain at a slight advantage due to suspect TornT.

Rain gets too much credit because of SS and TornT (Kedly is used more on opposing teams in my experiences).

 

[Deluks917]

Tyranitar adds alot of ype weaknesses to your team. If you don't like having too many triple weaks to one type tyranitar can make team building hard.

 

[Luckstard.]

Ban sand storm? Why?

x1,5 in SpDef of rock-type? Yes, 2 Pokemon : Ttar and Terrakion.

Stabb ground, rock and steel-types attack? Yes, 1 Pokemon : Landorus, and sheer force is better than sand force and so many immun to ground, misses of stone edge and no steel-type move.

x2 speed? Yes, Sandslash and Stoutland : There are no Venusaur.

The most broken Pokemon in TSS is Ttar...

That's why rain and sun are more broken than TSS.

 

[Electrolyte]

You'd have stress, but it's more of a high risk / reward situation- with the bonus that the reward is often much larger than the risk. Losing the weather war doesn't always mean losing the match; I've always made sure that my teams don't fully rely on weather and can still win even if I lose the WW. Besides, there are many pokemon Rain can use that counter Sun teams / Sand teams easily, and vice versa.

 

[yee]

I can personally say having one mon with few weaknesses that had near Blissey level of bulk (90% of 252 HP bliss's bulk with max special defense) with Pursuit, the ability to cut off Rain / Sun, nudge out the 100s of Pursuit weak threats at 350-360 speed, chip away Leftovers on walls, make Terrakion a bit more ridiculous and hit very very hard itself was never an issue on my teambuilding. It will help your team stand up to much more if you weren't using weather before and would have the ability to do so often even if having counterweather wasn't so vital, it's weaknesses really aren't very hard to cover nowadays especially with the addition of Landorus-T, which can quick check the most powerful phsyical threats better than Gliscor could.

 

[Wizarus]

It's difficult trying to counter/check everything on a weatherless team and still maintain originality. Hyper offense can get away with it, because they try to kill you before you kill them, but balanced offense, balanced defense, semi-stall, and full stall all suffer from this.

This is compounded by the fact that some weather starters themselves are not bad pokemon at all. Tyranitar is one of 2 viable pokemon in OU that can pursuit trap, it learns SR with 100/110/159(174 max) defenses, and the CB set can punch holes in teams. Hippowdon is physically and specially bulkier than Skarmary, learns SR and Roar, and has an instant recovery move. Politoed is a fairly average bulky water, but it has just enough bulk to withstand attacks from both ends, has a high enough SPA, rain-boosted Hydro Pump, and coverage to go offensive, and gets good support moves like Encore, Hypnosis, and the rare Perish Song to go alongside the broken rain-boosted Scald. Abomasnow is mediocre, but even it has a few niches like Ice Shard with 120 base physical and special moves and workable attacking stats. Ninetales...is crap, I admit. People just use her just for OP Fire attacks and chlorophyll sweepers.

 

[Hugin]

If Gen VI adds even more weather abusers to increase even more the advantage of Weather > Nonweather, I'm really hoping Drizzle/Drought/Sand Stream/Snow Warning will be banned. Also, I remember a time back around HGSS to early BW1 when Sand was just overwhelmingly obnoxious, so if just Drizzle/Drought are banned, Sandstorm will increase in ubiquity and overwhelm the tier as well. IMO, Hail doesn't need the ban, but if all other weathers are banned, Hail should be too (at least in OU). As much as I like weather and its effectiveness, it really imposes a barrier on the creativity of teambuilding and viable pokes.

Also, Electrolyte has a point. Even though the mathematical advantages aren't perfect, the analogy still stands. With all the STAB boosts, accuracy boosts, neutering of Fire-moves, etc. that Rain brings to the field, it's hard/impossible to argue there are NO advantages of Rain > nonweather/every other weather. However, nonweather teams can/should slap on a Hail/Sand inducer because letting the opponent run free with their Rain while not running any way to change the weather is tilts the odds highly in their favor.

Hail is allowed in lower tiers even though Drought Vulpix isn't. Hail is really just so minor that even NU doesn't care much about it.

The obvious counter for non-weather to use against weather is Rain Dance Kingdra. If your oppt has Rain, you get a swift swimmer, and if they have sun/sand, you kill their inducer then change the weather.

 

[nygerman]

I am the anti-weatherless, out to make the metagame more interesting by using teams that counter weatherless teams.

 

[Schpoonman]

Weather, though much more rain and sun than sand or hail, brings so many advantages to the table that the lesser malleability/diversity is made up and then some. Look at all the suspects since March 2011; I believe there have been 3 tests that were unrelated to weather: Blaziken, Kyurem-B, and Genesect. Of course, Blaziken is infinitely harder to wall in the sun thanks to Flare Blitz and Genesect benefits from every weather except hail (boosted Flamethrower, reduced Fire weakness/boosted HP Water, and residual damage to enemies from Sandstorm). Hell, even Round 6 found that the "weaker" weathers had Abilities that were broken, even if it still kinda feels like a pretense to drop Garchomp.

This just goes to show how powerful weather is. One of the easiest ways to deal with weather is to run something like Rain Dance Kingdra. You have to abuse weather right back to beat it sometimes. Offense, which means you're hitting fast and hard, giving rain and sun less opportunity to entrench itself and do some damage, is by far the most viable weatherless strategy. Balance and stall (semi- and full) are slower to get rolling, which means powerhouses like Venusaur and Tornadus-T have a better chance of getting rolling first.

 

[Voltage]

Adding to what Bays said. If you have to use a slot on your team to abuse the other weather, you effectively end up almost wasting a spot on your team. If your counter to a certain weather is still there and the weather isn't, you end up at a disadvantage.

Just Sayain

 

[Deluks917]

Yee what tyranitar sets do you find easy to fit on most teams?

I always found the SpD set opened me to something no matter what 3 attacks I chose.

 

[TheArchangle]

Non-weather is viable. The best team I ever made was without weather imo.

 

[yee]

@725roy and deluks917

1. There are different levels of running pokes to counter weathers- there is running Kingdra which is accepting liability against any non rain team, and then there is running things like Scarf Keldeo, which is menacing against rain while doing the standard revenge killing job well. Others like SpD Rotom-W really just happen to do very well against rain and are exactly the kind of thing you'd support your team with if rain wasn't even a focus.

2. Scarf Tar and CB Tar are always the easiest sets, in that order. ScarfTar has incredible utility outrunning Starmie / Lati@s / Gengar / Terrakion (every relevant unboosted fast mon besides Zam / Torn-T) while BandTar can act as a powerful tank against a lot of special things, using its impressive blend of power and special bulk. Both need to be used carefully in a full-on weather war but you shouldn't have trouble finding utility in them. SpD Tar has always been "meh" IMO while the other two sets will probably never be the disappointing cog in the team.