SpeedShuffling: A Discussion of Swift Destruction (+1 example set!)

What do you think?


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What about the stuff that's faster? If so, how much support will this need? I understand that this is a team concept, but can you post some logs to show its effectiveness?
The 3 Assistshufflers all work with insanely high speedlevels. Persian works with 541, Purugly with 532 and Smeargle with 409. Bar some rare Scarfers, there's nothing to fear.

Reposting the weaknesslist due to new page:
-Hail/Sandstorm: because the Assistshuffling pokémon carries choice scarf, it'll only have a maximum of 16 turns to attack before it dies to the residual damage. On top of that, Tyranitar is quite common.
Solution: This is probably the biggest threat to Assistshuffling teams. Sadly, weather moves are selectable through Assist, and even if you would be able to clear the skies, the opponent can simply switch in Tyranitar again. The best thing you can do is pack 3 Assistshufflers and hope that 48 turns is enough.
-Priority Moves: Even when using max HP, Persian, Purugly and Smeargle stay very frial and get 2HKOd by for example CB Scizor's Bullet Punch.
Solution: Counter isn't selectable through Assist and a good way to get rid of priority users, as long as Counter actually OHKOs. Your opponent won't Bullet Punch your Swampert again after he sees it could be his only chance of survival against the strategy. Reflect, although selectable through Assist, turns a lot of Priority moves from 2HKOs to 3 or even 4HKOs.
-The final pokémon: It's impossible to shuffle the final pokémon to death because it can't be phazed.
Solution: Unselectables like Counter, Mirror Coat and especially Destiny Bond can quickly finish off the final opponent. Also, seeing as it probably already has taken a lot of damage, unselectables like Chatter and Focus Punch can probably finish them off without too much Attack investment. Perish song, although selectable, can net the win 100% of the time as long as you're able to stall out for 3 turns.
-Unphazable pokémon: Suction Cups and to a lesser extend Soundproof Pokémon cannot be phazed and therefore are immune to the strategy.
Solution: Again, unselectables can do the job here, but are harder to pull off because these pokémon will likely be at near-full HP. Luckily, these pokémon are quite rare. Soundproof pokémon can still be phazed with Whirlwind, so you'll just need some luck to defeat them.
-Lack of entry hazard: If the opponent prevents you from setting up entry hazard or Rapid Spins it away, you can phaze all you want, but won't get anything out of it.
Solution: Rapid Spinners are quite rare nowadays, and won't get the time to Rapid Spin anyways if you play well enough. However, setting up the first time is the biggest problem. A lot of leads are designed to prevent setting up SR, and a lot of moves that would ease setting up entry hazard like Taunt can't be choosen due to Assist being able to select them. You could make Skarmory scarfed and simply outrun these leads, but you'll have to sacrifice something for the second setup. Luckily, even if your Skarmory faints, Assist can still select Spikes and SR and if it doesn't it will still prevent the opponent from attacking. As long as your opponent doesn't carry priority moves or Sandstorm/Hail, you can simply stall out until you setup some entry hazard. You will probably lose an Assistshuffler this way, though. If you're really afraid of Rapid Spin, you could pack a Ghost to block it, but there aren't many Ghosts that can use moves that could be useful to the team otherwise.
- Levitating SR resisters: Pokémon like Flygon and Bronzong are immune to Spikes and Resist SR. Without any help, it would take 32 turns of phazing to KO them. If they carry Leftovers, that even makes them completely immune to the strategy.
Solution: Unselectables sadly don't really cut it against these threats. Flygon is most of the time Scarfed and will outspeed Destiny Bond Scarf Smeargle, and Bronzong will probably use Hypnosis. Gravity is a great solution to this, as with 3 layers of Spikes up, all pokémon switching in will receive 25% damage. There aren't any pokémon with Gravity that can learn Roar/Whirlwind, however.
 
What is the list of Pokemon that can learn both Whirlwind and Roar, for reference? I think the best way to combat the weakness to persistent weather and priority users like Scizor might be to use this strategy in UU, since Persian, Purugly, Blastoise, and Drapion are all available in UU, but this is contingent on there being enough usable Roar + Whirlwind users in the tier.
 

Legacy Raider

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What is the list of Pokemon that can learn both Whirlwind and Roar, for reference? I think the best way to combat the weakness to persistent weather and priority users like Scizor might be to use this strategy in UU, since Persian, Purugly, Blastoise, and Drapion are all available in UU, but this is contingent on there being enough usable Roar + Whirlwind users in the tier.
Aerodactyl, Skarmory, Ho-Oh, Lugia, Tropius, Rampardos, Drapion, and Smeargle. If Smeargle drops down into UU then an UU Assist team could be an interesting experiment.
 
Well at the moment the only problem I can see from a theorymon perspective is that there are no UU Spikers that also learn either Roar or Whirlwind. That means we'd have to rely on Stealth Rock and Toxic Spikes which, although unreliable and leaving us with Steel types completely ignoring our strategy, could still work since Focus Punch can clean up nearly every Steel type in the UU metagame.

So the team would look something like:

Rampardos @ Focus Sash
-Stealth Rock
-Roar
-Whirlwind
-Sleep Talk

Drapion @ Choice Scarf
-Toxic Spikes
-Roar
-Whirlwind
-Sleep Talk

Persian @ assistant set
Purugly @ assistant set

Aggron @ Leftovers
-Counter
-Focus Punch
-Roar
-Sleep Talk

Blastoise @ Leftovers
-Mirror Coat
-Focus Punch
-Roar
-Sleep Talk

That gives us the same ratio as the OU team, though it requires us to go through a few more hoops. With the last two Pokemon against any surviving Steel types, if they attack directly Counter/Mirror Coat will eventually finish them off and if they don't, Focus Punch will. The only way it works worse than the OU version is if Donphan comes in on Rampardos, as it can just infinitely Rapid Spin, or if the opponent has a grounded Poison to absorb the Toxic Spikes every time. The latter is unfortuantely quite common, but the strategy could still theoretically work off of just Stealth Rock. Maybe Furret as a third Assistant would help, too?

Obviously this is all theorymon because Shoddy can't test it but it might be even more viable since Hippopotas and Snover are way less common in UU than TTar and the grownup versions of those two are in OU.
 
Stop whining, how should we know what some random other forum thought up?

And nobody ever claimed the Aeodactyl set "his set". Claiming you thought up a set is retarded, anyways.

Back ontopic: sc4rs, I doubt you can pull off this strategy without Spikes. With only T-Spikes and SR, Steels will completely distroy you. Using it in UU seems like a great idea, even though Octillery and Cradily are more common there. Let's hope Smeargle get's alowed in UU.
 
I dunno if this is pointed out so far, but how are you going to kill the last pokemon of your opponent's team? You can't shuffle that sadly. And for so far as i know, you don't want to teach your other pokemon any moves that Assist picks that are not called Roar or Whirlwind, so how?
 
I dunno if this is pointed out so far, but how are you going to kill the last pokemon of your opponent's team? You can't shuffle that sadly. And for so far as i know, you don't want to teach your other pokemon any moves that Assist picks that are not called Roar or Whirlwind, so how?
If you read the thread, you'll see that there are quite a few attacking moves, like Thief, Counter, Mirror Coat, and Focus Punch, that aren't selected by Assist. That, or Poison damage from Toxic Spikes, is how you'd deal with the last pokemon.

As far as Steel types ruining the strategy go, how many Steel types does the average UU team run? If the average UU team only has 1 Steel type (Registeel or Steelix, usually) then it doesn't mess up the strategy at all - that Steel type will just always be the last Pokemon that the opponent has alive. Then you proceed as your normally do with disposing of the last Pokemon.

Also, I think Choice Scarf on Drapion is the wrong choice after thinking about it, because 1 layer of Toxic Spikes is technically better for shuffling since it does more damage in one turn.
 
You may be right about the lack of steels in UU, but I personally think it's a very big risk. You can't throw everything on the "Counter will handle it"-staple. Poisons are also more common in UU, so you could easily lose your TSpikes, and only using SR won't be enough.

I have to admit I hardly ever play UU, so I might be wrong.
 
You may be right about the lack of steels in UU, but I personally think it's a very big risk. You can't throw everything on the "Counter will handle it"-staple. Poisons are also more common in UU, so you could easily lose your TSpikes, and only using SR won't be enough.

I have to admit I hardly ever play UU, so I might be wrong.
And since I can't test it on Shoddy, I guess I'll be waiting with you on Smeargle's usage to drop to UU before I make it. :)
 
Yeah, the discussion is getting a bit pointless without the possibility to test things out. I think we should put this idea into the fridge and wait until shoddybattle 2 is released.
 
Hey everyone, I was wondering if I could get your opinion on this speedshuffling Tropius moveset I was planning to try on my Sunny Day team. Well, here goes:

Tropius
Item: Leftovers
Ability: Chlorophyll
Nature: Timid
EVs: 252 HP / 6 Def / 252 Spe

Attacks:
Solarbeam
Rest
Sleep Talk
Whirlwind

This Tropius is designed for use only after spikes, toxic spikes or stealth rock have been set up and sunny day has been activated. With the given EVs Tropius should have a speed of around 221 which is then doubled by chlorophyll to around 442. Spam solarbeam until you take some damage then rest and use sleep talk. Since sleep talk can't choose solarbeam as an attack you will automatically use whirlwind which, since it was chosen by sleep talk loses its super low priority. Switch around the opponent for two turns, racking up the spikes/toxic spikes/stealth rock damage then start over again. Solarbeam may be ignored completely if you just want to infinitely shuffle the opponent's team until the sunny day boost wears down. You may also baton pass speed boosts to tropius instead of using sunny day but then solarbeam becomes pretty much useless.

I'm not sure if the given EV's give it the best hp/def/sd combination or if a yache berry might be a better alternative for tropius but perhaps you guys could help me with that? The same moveset can also be done on a Shiftry but Shiftry has more weaknesses and lower defensive stats.
 
Just thought of something which might be helpful for this strategy. Since Copycat cannot be selected as a move from Assist, what if you used a lead with Copycat so that you could most likely stealth rock without actually having stealth rock, this would lead to one less move selectable by assist and raise the chances of shuffling.

Sadly not many Pokemon learn copycat, maybe something like:

Clefable @ Flame Orb
Magic Guard
Impish
252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
~ Counter
~ Copycat
~ Gravity
~ Trick

If Clefable copycats the Stealth Rock from the opposing lead, you can switch to a Spikes user and start spiking and use Clefable later on to trick Flame Orb for steels resisting Tspikes bar Heatran. Gravity to help spikes and Tspikes.

By the way, sorry if this is Necroing.
 
"Hello there, everyone! Today I (Light, if you don't know me) am here to discuss a strategy that is so incredibly rare that many people have probably gone their entire Pokemon careers without even so much as hearing of it, much less seeing someone use it. The technique that I am here to discuss with all of you is something which I dub “SpeedShuffling.”
Yagami as you can see never said that he created the strategy. In fact he gave credit to others by saying it was so rare and probably no one has seen it. He was just spreading the word about it.
So before you go on your stolen rant, why don't you read what he wrote..
And who knows maybe that guy found it somewhere else..you really just don't know.

Anyway, on topic. I have faced a team that utilized this fairly well. It is a really damaging and destructive. The problem he ran into was Rapid Spin (which I had, which made his phazing annoying yes, but slowly everything died from me hitting it from all sides.\
You need to utilize it properly, and only pokemon that are as fast as Latias can fully exploit it.
 
Its quite funny how I just a few weeks ago tried the areodactyl set with rest/talk/roar/whirlwind. and now theres even a thread on smogon about it.

Well my experience with the set tought me that it was better as some sort of a scouter by revealing whole teams before they even had moved once. As I had problems with laying down alot of spikes I usually tended to just use SR with the hippo and then switch to aero. From there I usually used rest -> s talk or whirlwind and started to kill sashes, scout opponents team and do some times quite much SR dammage.
But sometimes it just failed me totaly.
 
I don't really like the idea but I like Light so I voted the second option!
I'm pretty much an offensive-heavy player, though I can see fitting this into a U-turn team that focuses on scouting and piling on passive damage, then breaking the opponent with something like Lucario.
 
I voted the second option, but I don't think you're stupid I just believe its not going to work in high level play. We do need people to think outside the box every now and then, keeps this game interesting.

I could see it as somewhat workable strategy in Doubles since you'll have less turns to get hit by Sandstream, etc., but due to the unreliability of this strategy... Good effort though.
 

jc104

Humblest person ever
is a Top Contributor Alumnus
Anybody considered using spore on smeargle on the assist team? - it's hardly a bad thing to select through assist. Could also be used to set up the final poke for a focus punch.
 
As for finishing one's last Pokemon, clearly Bronzong and Claydol are major issues here, being resistant to any and all forms of Entry Hazards. Thankfully Destiny Bond can help here. Or, in the case of Zong, Counter :]
 

Lee

@ Thick Club
is a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnus
*deletes/edits posts*

Can we drop the rubbish about this being stolen? A few replies have already been deleted and yet they're still flowing in so please consider two things before you go jumping on your high horse.

1) Nobody owns the rights to an idea.

2) Observe the second set - http://www.smogon.com/rs/pokemon/crobat

Note it's an ADV analysis - that set has sat in that analysis for many years now - long before it was posted in the link that Light supposedly stole it from. Honestly, I went through the hassle of joining just to check and it was only posted two months ago. Do we go running over there to shout at them for stealing 'our' idea? No, because that would be pathetic. Grow up.
 
I built and tested an assist shuffling team, and it failed miserably. Priority sucks, but the biggest problem is actually the occasional use or stealth rock, spikes, or t spikes as they kill off your assist shuffler.
 
I've been looking at this set for a while now, and for some reason it just doesn't seem very viable.

If it was to work however I believe it would need a lot of team support which I think someone has already mentioned.

It just seems like a wasted team slot to me, has anyone tested and can comment on this?
 
Anybody considered using spore on smeargle on the assist team? - it's hardly a bad thing to select through assist. Could also be used to set up the final poke for a focus punch.
Persian used assist. Persian used Spore. Poke #1 fell asleep.

Next turn odds are you will whirlwind the sleeping pokemon out... so later on:

Persian used assist. Persian used Spore. (sleep clause). Scizor used bullet punch. Persian fainted.

Unless the pokemon you put to sleep is faster than Persian it wont have a chance to wake up, so sleep clause will be activated and it sets you up to fail later on.
 

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