1. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

Starmie (BW2 Update)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by alexwolf, Apr 13, 2013.

  1. Jukain

    Jukain .leaf
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2011
    Messages:
    4,088
    am check (open)

    [Overview]

    <p>Starmie holds the title of the best offensive spinner in OU, making it a staple on many offensive teams. Starmie's great Speed, decent power, and broad coverage make it a great revenge killer and difficult to switch into without dedicated special walls, and also allow it to get past anevery OU spinblocker in OU. Furthermore, Starmie's main STAB moves get a power boost from rain, a very common battle condition in BW2, making it even harder to switch into. Aside from functioning as an offensive spinner, Starmie can perform defensive duties as well, as it has access to the neat combination of Recover and Natural Cure, something that no other spinner has, giving it great durability and many chances to clear the field of entry hazards.</p>

    <p>Even though Starmie's typing gives it good STABs, it also gives it an unfortunate weakness to Pursuit, which Tyranitar and Scizor can capitalize on if they have the necessary health to do sosurvive an attack or carry a Choice Scarf. Another problem for Starmie is that, even though it is not easy to wall, some Pokemon that wall it are very popular. Ferrothorn and specially defensive Celebi are both omnipresent Pokemon that cand both shut down Starmie while also carrying Stealth Rock themselves (and Spikes in Ferrothorn's case), preventing Starmie from using Rapid Spin as long as they are on the field. Finally, Starmie is pretty frail, even for an offensive Pokemon, meaning that it fails to find as many switch-in opportunities as it would want,(RC) in a metagame where rain-boosted Water-(hyphen)type attacks are everywhere.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Offensive Rapid Spin
    move 1: Hydro Pump / Surf
    move 2: Thunderbolt / Psyshock
    move 3: Ice Beam
    move 4: Rapid Spin
    item: Life Orb / Leftovers
    ability: Natural Cure
    nature: Timid
    evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>With a combination of Speed, power, and coverage, Starmie has everything it needs to become a threatening offensive presence as well as 2HKO anevery spinblocker in OU. Hydro Pump hits most Pokemon that don't resist it hard and has excellent neutral coverage. It can also be boosted by rain, pumping Starmie's power to ridiculous levels and allowing it to 2HKO most offensive Pokemon that resist it, including Latios and Keldeo, two of the bulkiest offensive Pokemon ofin OU. If accuracy is preferred over power, Surf is the next choice, but the power difference is very big and causes Starmie to miss out on many OHKOs and 2HKOs. Thunderbolt gives Starmie coverage againston Water-types, and is especially important asowing it to 2HKOes physically defensive Jellicent, ensuring that Starmie can later use Rapid Spin. On the other hand, Psyshock gets STAB, hits for super effective damage some Pokemon that resist Water-type moves, such as Tentacruel, Breloom, and Keldeo, for super effective damage and allows Starmie to 2HKO specially defensive variants of Jellicent and Rotom-W most of the time, Kyurem-B, and Blissey, all after Stealth Rock damage. Ice Beam covers the Grass- and Dragon-types that resist Starmie's main STAB, 2HKOing most of them with a few exceptions, namely specially defensive Celebi, Ferrothorn, Kyurem, and Kyurem-B. Rapid Spin is Starmie's most important feature, as it clears its side of the field ofrom entry hazards and turns Starmie into the best offensive spinner in the game, helping Starmie's teammates switch in more easily, especially those that are weak to Stealth Rock. you've already established that starmie is a great offensive spinner and rapid spin isn't what makes starmie a great offensive spinner -- its other attributes do</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Life Orb versus Leftovers is a choice between power and survivability; with Life Orb, Starmie is incredibly difficult to switch into as it hits extremely hard, while with Leftovers, Starmie can last for much longer with Leftovers. Also, Life Orb works very well if Starmie is being used on a rain team, as the rain boost combined with Life Orb makes Hydro Pump really hard to switch into, even 2HKOing most offensive Pokemon that resist it, such as Latios and Keldeo. tbh this whole sentence is redundant -- you explain this in detail in the set comments -- remove it imo except for the bit about rain teams On the other hand, Leftovers is the best option if Starmie is being used on a sand team, as Life Orb in addition to sand damage would be too much residual damage for Starmie to handle.</p>

    <p>If using Life Orb, Analytic is an excellent option over Natural Cure, taking advantage of the switches that Starmie forces to hit the switch-in very hard. With Life Orb and rain support, Analytic-boosted Hydro Pump is strong enough to 2HKO a lot of common switch-ins to offensive Starmie when combined with the appropriate coverage move and Stealth Rock. For example, specially defensive variants of Rotom-W and, (AC) Celebi, as well asnd 252 HP Latias,(RC) are 2HKOed by Hydro Pump and Psyshock or Ice Beam respectively. Recover is an option over Ice Beam to ensureallow Starmie canto last longer in the match and switch into bulky Water-types easier. However, Starmie usually needs all of its coverage moves, so fitting Recover in can be hard. If using Starmie on a rain team, Thunder is a great move for the second slot, ands it allows Starmie to always 2HKO anyll Jellicent variants as long as it holds Life Orb, something no other move can achieve (Analytic-boosted Life Orb Thunder always OHKOes physically defensive Jellicent after Stealth Rock, (AC) however). Hidden Power Fire is another option that can be used and is, (AC) being especially useful if Starmie is being used on a sun team, whereas it can OHKO one of Starmie's biggest counters &mdash;Ferrothorn&mdash;with the help of sun and Life Orb, Ferrothorn. However, it has little use outside of hitting Ferrothorn, as Hydro Pump handles most Steel-types anyway, and Starmie likes to be in rain, in whereich Hidden Power Fire is neutered. Hidden Power Grass and Grass Knot can be used oin the second slot, still covering Water-types,(RC) while also hitting Gastrodon and Rotom-W hard, though the latter only with Hidden Power. Grass Knot 2HKOes Gastrodon and Jellicent, while Hidden Power Grass 2HKOes Rotom-W and Gastrodon. Expert Belt can replace either of the two main items,(RC) to take advantage of Starmie's great super effective coverage, but Starmie will miss the extra power on neutral hits that Life Orb provides or the survivability Leftovers offers.</p>

    <p>Starmie enjoys having partners that can beat Ferrothorn, Gastrodon, Chansey, and Blissey, the only Pokemon that hard wall Starmie. Breloom is the best Pokemon for this role, easily beating anyll of those Pokemon one on -(hyphen)on-(hyphen)one. Terrakion and Lucario are good choices as well, but they can't set up on Gastrodon like Breloom can. Scizor can either threaten those Pokemon immediately with a Choice Band set,(RC) or threaten for a sweep with a Swords Dance set, all the while also dealing with Celebi, a hard checkounter to Starmie. starmie isn't ever beating sdef celebi... Politoed is a good teammate as the rain it brings boosts the power of Hydro Pump and allows Starmie to use Thunder, making Starmie even more difficult to wall. Kyurem-B and Kyurem are also problematic for Starmie, especially variants with Substitute and Roost, so Scizor, Jirachi, and Ferrothorn are good partners to help against them. Jirachi and Ferrothorn can also set(add space)up entry hazards, which Starmie appreciates to get many OHKOs and 2HKOs. examples here, perhaps? Outside of rain, Heatran is another Pokemon that works very well with Starmie, having good defensive synergy with it, setting up Stealth Rock, and dealing with some of Starmie's worries, such as Celebi, Ferrothorn, and Kyurem-B that lack Earth Power. Finally, Keldeo forms a potent offensive combo with Starmie, especially on rain teams, where one of them weakens the opponent's Water-type checks and counters and the other one sweeps later in the match.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Bulky Rapid Spin
    move 1: Rapid Spin
    move 2: Scald
    move 3: Psyshock / Ice Beam / Thunderbolt
    move 4: Recover
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Natural Cure
    nature: Timid
    evs: 248 HP / 32 Def / 4 SpA / 224 Spe
    ivs: 0 Atk

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This set takes advantage of Starmie's bemost useful defensive traits, Natural Cure and Recover, to turn Starmie into a reliabler spinner that can last for the whole game. Rapid Spin clears the field from entry hazards, letting Starmie act as a great team player on almost any team. Scald is Starmie's primary STAB, hasving decent power and a neat burn chance, which givinges Starmie the potential to neuter some of it'(remove apostrophe)s common switch-ins, (AC) such as Ferrothorn and Kyurem-B. Psyshock is a very useful move on Starmie, allowing it to OHKO the most common spinblocker, Gengar, deal a minimum of 80% damage to Breloom, and 2HKO Keldeo (regardless of Calm Mind boosts) and Terrakion in sand, all Pokemon that Starmie outspeeds. If Dragon-types are big threats to Starmie's team, Ice Beam should be used over Psyshsock, whichas it OHKOes Dragonite and Salamence (the former after Stealth Rock), 2HKOes Latios, 2HKOes Latios and Hydreigon after Stealth Rock, and deals meaningful damage to most Grass-types. Thunderbolt deals good damage to most Water-types, which Starmie can easily switch into, and letsting Starmie OHKO Gyarados after Stealth Rock, actllowing it to act as a great check to it. Recover is one of the main advantages of Starmie over other defensive spinners, giving it great longevity,(RC) and combined with Natural Cure allows Starmieing it to switch into a multitude of defensive Pokemon and find many opportunities to use Rapid Spin.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The EV spread maxes out Starmie's HP, giving it enough bulk to stick around for an extended period of time. 32 Defense EVs are used to avoid the OHKO from Choice Band Terrakion's Stone Edge,(RC) and the OHKO from Ferrothorn's Power Whip, meaning that after Ferrothorn is burned not even a critical hit can OHKO Starmie, enabling Starmie to outstall Ferrothorn with ease. The Speed investment allows Starmie to outspeed Timid Gengar, as well asnd Tornadus, while 4 EVs go to Special Attack in order to always OHKO 4 HP Gengar with Psyhshock. Outspeeding Gengar is crucial to make sure it doesn't spinblock Starmie. The rest of the EVs go into Defense to give Starmie a bit more physical bulk. Lastly, 0 Atk IVs ensure that Starmie takes the minimum damage possible from Sableye's Foul Play, which is useful as Sableye might want to spinblock Starmie.</p>

    the bit about the defense evs was explained, you don't need to say it again


    <p>Starmie is one of the few Pokemon that learn Reflect Type, (AC) and it can put it to good use. By replacing its coverage move with Reflect Type, Starmie can deal with some of its most common enemiechecks, namely Tyranitar, Ferrothorn, and Rotom-W, as all of those Pokemon fail to do any significant damage to Starmie after it uses Reflect Type, allowing itStarmie to beat all of them one on -(hyphen)on-(hyphen)one. Psychic can be used over Psyshock to hit Conkeldurr and Breloom harder,; (semi) however, (AC) Psyshock hits the most important targets harder, (AC) such as Keldeo after it has used Calm Mind and Terrakion under sand, (AC) harder. Thunder is a viable coverage move on rain teams, allowing Starmie to deal meaningful damage to Jellicent and even havinge a 25.78% chance to 2HKO pshysically defensive variants after Stealth Rock. Starmie can also use 124 EVs in Special Attack to always 2HKO physically defensive Jellicent after Stealth Rock with Thunder, although the loss of bulk is annoying. Starmie can drop Recover to run Ice Beam, giving it great all -(hyphen)around coverage and allowing it to act as a decent revenge killer. However, this means that Starmie will not stick around for long, losing most of its utility as a defensive spinner and leaving it as an option mostly for offensive teams. Toxic can gobe used over one of Starmie's coverage moves, allowing it to simultaneously beat Jellicent and Sableye,(RC) as well as badly cripple Kyurem and Latias, but those are its only significant uses.</p>

    <p>Starmie appreciates strong Fighting-types as teammates, as they can break through its biggest roadblockcounters, namely Ferrothorn, Tyranitar, and Rotom-W. wrong use of "roadblocks" Terrakion and Breloom can beat all of those Pokemon,(RC) or set-(add space)up on them in the case of a Pursuit-locked Tyranitar. Partners that can beat Jellicent are very helpful as well, as this Starmie variant is unable to get past it. Celebi completely shuts Jellicent down, while Choice Band Tyranitar with a lot of Speed investment can OHKO Jellicent with either Crunch or Pursuit before it is burned, depending on whether Jellicent stays in or switches out. Celebi and most Dragon-types can easily switch into Starmie so teammates to handle them are needed. Heatran checks all of those Pokemon; Ferrothorn, Skarmory, and Scizor, do the same to a lesser degree. Ferrothorn also helps with Jolteon, which can outspeed and KO Starmie, as well asnd havings excellent defensive synergy with Starmie, making for an exceptional teammate.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Choice Specs
    move 1: Hydro Pump / Surf
    move 2: Psyshock / Thunderbolt
    move 3: Trick
    move 4: Rapid Spin / Ice Beam
    item: Choice Specs
    ability: Natural Cure
    nature: Timid
    evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>With a Choice Specs equipped, and possibly rain support, Starmie is able to 2HKO most of OU with just Hydro Pump, minimizing the need for prediction against anythingll but a few targets. Surf still hits very hard while being much more reliable, howeverbut the power drop is quite noticeable. Psyshock deals with some of the Pokemon that can avoid the 2HKO from Starmie's Water-type attacks, such as Blissey and specially defensive variants of Jellicent and Rotom-W, while also OHKOing many important Pokemon, including Keldeo, Breloom, and Tentacruel (the last after Stealth Rock). On the other hand, Thunderbolt has the advantage of 2HKOing anyll Jellicent variants with the help of Stealth Rock and OHKOing Gyarados, but has generally less utility in general than Psyshock. Trick makes Starmie even harder to switch into, crippling any defensive answer to it, including the omnipresent Ferrothorn and Celebi, and is one of the main distinguishing features of Starmie over the other common Water-type Choice Specs wielder, Keldeo. Furthermore, by getting rid of Choice Specs with Trick, Starmie gains the advantage of being able to switching moves and is able to use Rapid Spin without becoming utter set(remove space)up bait. Rapid Spin works great with Trick, as after Starmie cripples one of its counters with it, it can work as a spinner too, allowing Starmie to effectively takefill three main roles for its team: hard hitter, lure, and spinner. However, if Rapid Spin support is not of great importance for Starmie's team, (AC) then Ice Beam is the next best option,(RC) to deal with the Grass- and Dragon-types that check Starmie, such as Celebi and Latias.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>This set greatly benefits from rain, as very few Pokemon can avoid the 2HKO from Hydro Pump in rainthe weather, making Politoed a very good teammate. The presence of rain also allows Starmie to use Thunder, which hits just as hard as a STAB Psyshock and has a nifty 30% paralyzesis chance, which can screw over tbh "screw over" sounds immature and informal but that's up to you I guess... some of Starmie's common switch-ins, such as Latios, Latias, and Kyurem-B. Analytic is a great option over Natural Cure, especially if Starmie has rain support, where Analytic-boosted Hydro Pump and Thunder becomes incredibly lethal; to give you an example, with the Analytic boost, Thunder always OHKOes physically defensive Jellicent and rain -(hyphen)boosted Hydro Pump deals 51.7 - 60.79% to standard Ferrothorn. While this set doesn't have any real counters due to the extreme power behindthat rain and Choice Specs -(hyphenboosted Water attacks provides, as well as Trick, bulky Grass- and Dragon-types are still problematic to Starmie. Terrakion, Weavile, Breloom, and Scizor are all great offensive partners for Starmie, as they can take advantage of Starmie's common switch-ins, such as Celebi, Ferrothorn, and Latias, and even trap most of them in Weavile's and Scizor's case. On the defensive side, Celebi and Ferrothorn can both handle the Electric-(hyphen) and Grass-(hyphen)type attacks that threaten Starmie,(RC) while also setting up entry hazards that help Starmie get certain OHKOs and 2HKOs. examples? Finally, any offensive Pokemon with similar counters to Starmie makes for a good partner, as this Starmie is a fine lure due to its unexpectedly strong attacks and Trick, which cripple many of its common checks and counters, especially those that lack reliable recovery, such as Ferrothorn and specially defensive Rotom-W. Choice Scarf Keldeo, Dragon Dance Gyarados, and Swords Dance Feraligatr are all Pokemon that can sweep easily after Starmie successfully weakens the opposing team.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Choice Scarf
    move 1: Surf / Hydro Pump
    move 2: Ice Beam
    move 3: Thunderbolt
    move 4: Trick
    item: Choice Scarf
    ability: Natural Cure
    nature: Timid
    evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>While Starmie doesn't have the highest Special Attack around, its great Speed and wide coverage allow it to become a decent revenge killer that can outspeed the whole metagame when holding a Choice Scarf. Hydro Pump is Starmie's main STAB, OHKOing Pokemon such as Terrakion and Landorus,(RC) while also allowing Starmie to sometimes clean up late-game, with(RC) if rain is present. Surf is more reliable,(RC) but misses the guaranteed OHKO on Terrakion and makes it much harder for Starmie to clean up. Ice Beam takes care the plethora of boosting sweepers weak to it, such as Salamence, Dragonite, and Garchomp, while also hitting Grass-types super effectively. Thunderbolt deals with Gyarados and Keldeo to an extent,(RC) and allows Starmie to hitas well as hitting most other Water-types for solid damage. Trick rounds off the set and makes sure that Starmie won't be the easiest thing to switch into, as well as making Starmie much more useful against defensive teams.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Psyshock can be used over Thunderbolt to take advantage of the fact that Starmie outspeeds Choice Scarf Keldeo, as StarmiePsyshock can OHKO it after a bit of residual damage, unlike Thunderbolt, which barely deals over half to Keldeo and struggles to do any real damage to Keldeoit if it has accumulatquired any Calm Mind boosts. Psyshock also hits Venusaur harder than anything else Starmie can use, usually OHKOing it after Life Orb or Stealth Rock damage. Given that Choice Scarf Starmie outspeeds standard Venusuaur under sun, it can be very helpful in a tight situation. Thunder can replace Thunderbolt if Starmie is being used on a rain team, as the extra power and improved paralyzesis chance are always appreciated. Rapid Spin can also be used over Thunderbolt for teams that can already deal with Water-types and have only one slot to dedicate for both a spinner and a revenge killer.</p>

    <p>Starmie needs to have Ferrothorn, Celebi, Latias, and sturdy Water-type resists taken care of in order to work effectively. The classic Starmie partners work well, which means that Scizor, Terrakion, and Breloom are all great choices. Politoed is also a very beneficial teammate to power up Starmie's main STAB and give Starmieit some sweeping potential after Water-type resists have been weakened or eliminated.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Starmie can use a Ddual Sscreens set, but it faces major competition byfrom Azelf, which has the advantage of access to Stealth Rock and Taunt over Starmie, making it a more successful Pokemon in that role overall. However, Starmie does have some advantages over Azelf, and those are Water-type STAB, Recover, Natural Cure, and Rapid Spin, so make sure to take advantage of them. Hidden Power Fire can be used on any set if Starmie is being used on a sun team, mainly to hit Ferrothorn and Scizor, two Pokemon that can hit Starmie hard and Starmie can't properly damage otherwise (under sun). Hidden Power Grass and Grass Knot are options for teams that struggle with Gastrodon and Rotom-W,(RC) while still hitting most Water-types, (AC) such as Jellicent and Politoed. However, Starmie loses coverage againston Flying-types as well as Tentacruel and Gyarados, leaving it easier to wall in general. Signal Beam can be used on any offensive set to 2HKO Celebi, one of Starmie's hardest enemies to remove. When used on a hail team, Starmie can opt to use Blizzard over Ice Beam, highly increasing its damage output. Thunder Wave allows Starmie to support its team and cripple some of Starmie'its usual switch-ins, including Latias, Kyurem, and Kyurem-B. Starmie can also support its team by changing the weather to more favorable or less threatening conditions with Rain Dance or Hail. This strategy is more effective if the opponent's weather starter is down, though. Rain Dance powers up Starmie's Water-(hyphen)type STAB moves,(RC) but isn't effective against Rrain teams, while Hail is only therusable to cancel out the opponent's weather,(RC) but is effective against all of the most popular weathers.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Chansey and specially defensive Celebi are the best counters to Starmie, as they are able to handle every single one of Starmie's sets with no worries, except for the rare Trick and the even rarer offensive sets with Analytic. Ferrothorn completely walls Starmie, can punish the use of Rapid Spin with Iron Barbs, and can OHKO back with Power Whip,(RC) while only fearing a Scald burn from defensive variants, which admittedly troubles Ferrothorn a lot. Blissey can take on most Starmie variants easily, fearing only Psyshock from Life Orb and Choice Specs variants and Trick. Calm Mind Latias can switch into anything Starmie has, except for Life Orb-boosted Ice Beam, and start setting up on it, making it an excellent check to Starmie. Defensive variants of Kyurem-B wall most offensive sets of Starmie and can set up on them, but it can't switch into the defensive Starmie so well, as int fear ofs a Scald burn, which would neuter Kyurem-Bit. Kyurem makes for a very good switch-in to defensive Starmie, as unlike Kyurem-B it doesn't mind getting burned, and can set up a Substitute to comfortably start attacking. All offensive versions of Kyurem and Kyurem-B can also check offensive Starmie with Leftovers pretty well, avoiding the 2HKO from anyll of its moves even with Stealth Rock up. Anyll Jellicent variant is are also very good checks to Starmie, walling Starmie's defensive set and preventing Rapid Spin from working. Furthermore, physically defensive Jellicent walls offensive Starmie sets with Psyshock while specially defensive Jellicent walls offensive Starmie sets with Thunderbolt (Thunder 2HKOes both variants easily though). Rotom-W, especially if it runs the specially defensive set, is an excellent switch-in to Starmie, resisting Hydro Pump and not fearing mostany of its coverage moves,(RC) aside from Life Orb or Choice Specs -(hyphen)boosted Psyshock and Thunder. Amoonguss is a good check to Starmie that lack Psyshock, as it is able to switch into anything but Ice Beam and 2HKO Starmie with Giga Drain. Any Starmie set that lacks Ice Beam can be taken advantage of by the various Dragon-types that reside in OU, such as Dragonite and Latios.</p>

    <p>Pursuit users have the potential to eliminate Starmie under certain circumstances. Tyranitar can trap and KO Starmie with Pursuit, provided it switches in as Starmie uses Rapid Spin or comes in for free, in some other way(RC) and avoids getting burned from Scald. Scizor can do the same with Pursuit,(RC) as long as it too gets in for free,(RC) but fails to trap Life Orb and Choice Specs Starmie in rain, whichas those sets can OHKOes it with Hydro Pump in the weather. Weavile is the only Pursuit user that has the advantage of outspeeding Starmie, but like other Pursuit users, it struggles to switch into Starmie, (AC) as Hydro Pump from offensive variants threatens to OHKO and Scald from defensive sets can neuter Weavile with a burn. Finally, most faster Pokemon can revenge kill Starmie. For example, Jolteon, Alakazam, Choice Scarf Latios, Choice Scarf Terrakion, and Choice Scarf Landorus can all dent or OHKO Starmie, but most of them can't really switch in.</p>

    The biggest issues were the usage of commas, as well as, and but. I'll explain the latter.

    You can't say:
    There are two options to correct this. The first is removing the comma before but:
    The second is adding an "it" after the but:
    You also misused "any" a lot. It is not an acceptable substitute for "all"; you cannot use it as such.
  2. GatoDelFuego

    GatoDelFuego xXFaze GatoXx
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
    Mentor

    Joined:
    May 29, 2011
    Messages:
    3,001
    I'll say

    [gp]1/2[/gp]
  3. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2009
    Messages:
    6,946
    Thx guys, i will make sure to refrain from using ''any'' to mean ''all'' from now on. One more check pls!
  4. relaunched

    relaunched

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2012
    Messages:
    299
    additions deletions comments

    Show Hide
    [Overview]

    <p>Starmie holds the title of is the best offensive spinner in OU (RC) , making it and a staple on many offensive teams. (Honestly I would just delete "making it a staple on many offensive teams" because it doesn't really add much but it's up to you.) Starmie's great Speed, decent power, and broad coverage make it a great revenge killer and that is difficult to switch into without for all but dedicated special walls to switch into; this difficulty is only magnified under the common field condition of rain, and also allow it to get past every OU spinblocker. Thanks to these traits, Starmie can get past every OU Spinblocker. Furthermore, Starmie's main STAB moves get a power boost from rain, a very common battle condition in BW2, making it even harder to switch into. Aside from functioning as an offensive spinner, Starmie can perform defensive duties, as it has access to the neat combination of Recover and Natural Cure, something that no other spinner has, giving it great durability and many chances to clear the field of entry hazards.</p>

    <p>Even though Starmie's typing gives it good STABs, it also gives it an unfortunate weakness to Pursuit, which Tyranitar and Scizor can capitalize on if they have the necessary health to survive an attack or carry a Choice Scarf. Another problem for Starmie is that, even though it is not easy to wall, some Pokemon that wall it are very popular. Ferrothorn and specially defensive Celebi are both omnipresent Pokemon that can shut down Starmie while carrying Stealth Rock themselves (and Spikes in Ferrothorn's case), preventing Starmie from using Rapid Spin as long as they are on the field counteracting the effect of Rapid Spin as long as they face Starmie. Finally, Starmie is pretty frail, even for an offensive Pokemon, meaning that it fails to find as many switch-in opportunities as it would want in a metagame where rain-boosted Water-type attacks are everywhere.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Offensive Rapid Spin
    move 1: Hydro Pump / Surf
    move 2: Thunderbolt / Psyshock
    move 3: Ice Beam
    move 4: Rapid Spin
    item: Life Orb / Leftovers
    ability: Natural Cure
    nature: Timid
    evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>With a combination of Speed, power, and coverage, Starmie has everything it needs to become a threatening offensive presence as well as , (AC) 2HKOing every spinblocker in OU. Hydro Pump hits most Pokemon that don't resist it hard and has excellent neutral coverage. It can also be boosted by rain, pumping Starmie's power to ridiculous levels and allowing it to 2HKO most even offensive Pokemon that resist it, including Latios and Keldeo, two of the bulkiest offensive Pokemon in OU. If accuracy is preferred over power, Surf is the next choice, but the power difference is very big and causes Starmie to miss out on many OHKOs and 2HKOs. Thunderbolt gives Starmie coverage on Water-types and is especially important as it 2HKOes physically defensive Jellicent, ensuring that Starmie can later use Rapid Spin. On the other hand, Psyshock gets STAB, hits some Pokemon that resist Water-type moves, such as Tentacruel, Breloom, and Keldeo, for super effective damage and allows Starmie to 2HKO specially defensive variants of Jellicent and Rotom-W most of the time, Kyurem-B, and Blissey, all after Stealth Rock damage. Ice Beam covers the Grass- and Dragon-types that resist Starmie's main STAB, 2HKOing most of them with a few exceptions, namely specially defensive Celebi, Ferrothorn, Kyurem, and Kyurem-B. Rapid Spin is Starmie's most important feature, as it clears its side of field of entry hazards, helping Starmie's teammates switch in more easily, especially those that are weak to Stealth Rock.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Life Orb versus Leftovers is a choice between power and survivability; with Life Orb, Starmie is incredibly difficult to switch into as it hits extremely hard, while with Leftovers, Starmie can last for much longer. Life Orb makes Starmie a heavy hitter that is difficult to switch into normally and devastating when paired with rain, but sacrifices the longevity given to it by Leftovers, a necessary item for Starmie on sand teams to keep residual damage from getting out of hand. Also, Life Orb works very well if Starmie is being used on a rain team, as the rain boost combined with Life Orb makes Hydro Pump really hard to switch into. On the other hand, Leftovers is the best option if Starmie is being used on a sand team, as Life Orb in addition to sand damage would be too much residual damage for Starmie to handle.</p>

    <p>If using Life Orb, Analytic is an excellent option over Natural Cure, taking advantage of the switches that Starmie forces to hit the switch-ins very hard. With Life Orb and rain support, Analytic-boosted Hydro Pump is strong enough to 2HKO a lot of common switch-ins to offensive Starmie when combined with the appropriate coverage move and Stealth Rock. With Stealth Rock and rain support, Analytic gives Starmie the ability to 2HKO many of its common switch-ins. For example, specially defensive variants of Rotom-W and Celebi, as well as 252 HP Latias are 2HKOed by Hydro Pump and Psyshock or Ice Beam respectively. In particular, Hydro Pump on a switch to Rotom-W, Celebi, and 252 HP Latias, followed by the appropriate coverage move, makes short work of these would-be counters. Recover is an option over Ice Beam to allow Starmie to last longer in the match and switch into bulky Water-types easier. However, Starmie usually needs all of its coverage moves, so fitting Recover in can be hard. If using Starmie on a rain team, Thunder is a great move for the second slot, as it allows Starmie to always 2HKO all Jellicent variants as long as it holds Life Orb, something no other move can achieve (Analytic-boosted Life Orb Thunder always OHKOes physically defensive Jellicent after Stealth Rock damage). (The deleted part is close to irrelevant, as all this does is save Starmie an extra 10% HP.) Hidden Power Fire is another option that can be used and is especially useful if Starmie is being used on a sun team, where it can OHKO one of Starmie's biggest counters&mdash;Ferrothorn&mdash;with the help of Life Orb. If you have problems with Ferrothorn, Hidden Power Fire can OHKO it in sunny weather with the help of Life Orb. However, it has little use outside of hitting Ferrothorn, as Hydro Pump handles most Steel-types anyway, and Starmie likes to be in rain, where Hidden Power Fire is neutered. Hidden Power Grass and Grass Knot can be used in the second slot, still covering Water-types while also hitting Gastrodon and Rotom-W hard, though the latter only with Hidden Power. Grass Knot 2HKOes Gastrodon and Jellicent, while Hidden Power Grass 2HKOes Rotom-W and Gastrodon. Expert Belt can replace either of the two two main items to take advantage of Starmie's great super effective coverage, but Starmie will miss the extra power on neutral hits that Life Orb provides or and the survivability Leftovers offers.</p>

    <p>Starmie enjoys having partners that can beat Ferrothorn, Gastrodon, Chansey, and Blissey, the only Pokemon that hard wall Starmie. Breloom is the best Pokemon for this role, easily beating all of those Pokemon one-on-one. Terrakion and Lucario are good choices as well, but though they can't set up on Gastrodon like Breloom can. Scizor can either threaten those Pokemon immediately with a Choice Band set or threaten for a sweep with a Swords Dance set, all the while also dealing with Celebi, a big obstacle to Starmie. Politoed is a good teammate as rain boosts the power of Hydro Pump and allows Starmie to use Thunder legitimizes use of Thunder, making Starmie even more difficult to wall. Kyurem-B and Kyurem are also problematic for Starmie, especially variants with Substitute and Roost, so Scizor, Jirachi, and Ferrothorn are good partners to help against them. Jirachi and Ferrothorn can also set up entry hazards, which Starmie appreciates to get many OHKOs and 2HKOs, such as the guaranteed 2HKO on 252 HP Latias with Ice Beam and the almost near-guaranteed 2HKO on 56 HP Kyurem-B with Psyshock. Outside of rain, Heatran is another Pokemon that works very well with Starmie, having good defensive synergy with it, setting up Stealth Rock, and dealing with some of Starmie's worries, such as Celebi, Ferrothorn, and Kyurem-B that lack Earth Power. Finally, Keldeo forms a potent offensive combo with Starmie, especially on rain teams, where one of them weakens the opponent's Water-type checks and counters and the other one sweeps later in the match.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Bulky Rapid Spin
    move 1: Rapid Spin
    move 2: Scald
    move 3: Psyshock / Ice Beam / Thunderbolt
    move 4: Recover
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Natural Cure
    nature: Timid
    evs: 248 HP / 32 Def / 4 SpA / 224 Spe
    ivs: 0 Atk

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This set takes advantage of Starmie's best defensive traits, Natural Cure and Recover, to turn Starmie into a reliable spinner that can last for the whole game. Rapid Spin clears the field from entry hazards, letting Starmie act as a great team player on almost any team. Scald is Starmie's primary STAB, having decent power and a neat burn chance, which gives Starmie the potential to neuter some of its common switch-ins such as Ferrothorn and Kyurem-B. Psyshock is a very useful move on Starmie, allowing it to OHKO the most common spinblocker, Gengar, deal a minimum of 80% damage to Breloom, and 2HKO Keldeo (regardless of Calm Mind boosts) and Terrakion in sand, all Pokemon that Starmie outspeeds. If Dragon-types are big threats to Starmie's team, Ice Beam should be used over Psyshock, as it OHKOes Dragonite and Salamence (the former after Stealth Rock), 2HKOes Latios, 2HKOes Latios and Hydreigon after Stealth Rock (You just said it 2hkoes Latios and also 2hkoes Latios after Stealth Rock. Did you mix up Latis? Whatever it was, fix the redundancy.) , and deals meaningful damage to most Grass-types. Thunderbolt deals good damage to most Water-types, which Starmie can easily switch into, and lets Starmie OHKO Gyarados after Stealth Rock, allowing Starmie to act as a great check to it. Recover is one of the main advantages of Starmie has over other defensive spinners, giving it great longevity and combined with Natural Cure allowing it to switch into a multitude of defensive Pokemon and find many opportunities to use Rapid Spin.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The EV spread maxes out Starmie's HP, giving it enough bulk to stick around for an extended period of time. 32 Defense EVs are used to avoid the OHKO from Choice Band Terrakion's Stone Edge and Ferrothorn's Power Whip, meaning that after Ferrothorn is burned not even a critical hit can OHKO Starmie, enabling Starmie to outstall Ferrothorn with ease. (Not true because of Leech Seed. It's more like a standstill if Ferrothorn has that.) The Speed investment allows Starmie to outspeed Timid Gengar and Tornadus, while 4 EVs go to Special Attack in order to always OHKO 4 HP Gengar with Psyshock. Outspeeding and OHKOing Gengar is crucial to make sure it doesn't can't spinblock Starmie effectively. Lastly, 0 Atk IVs ensure that Starmie takes the minimum damage possible from Sableye's Foul Play minimizes confusion and Foul Play damage, which is useful as Sableye might want to spinblock Starmie.</p>

    <p>Starmie is one of the few Pokemon that learn Reflect Type, and it can put it to good use. By replacing its coverage move with Reflect Type, Starmie can deal with some of its most common troubles, namely Tyranitar, Ferrothorn, and Rotom-W, as all of those Pokemon fail to do any significant damage to Starmie after it uses Reflect Type, allowing Starmie to beat all of them one-on-one. Psychic can be used over Psyshock to hit Conkeldurr and Breloom harder; however, Psyshock hits the most important targets, such as Keldeo after it has used Calm Mind and Terrakion under sand, harder. Thunder is a viable coverage move on rain teams, allowing Starmie to deal meaningful damage to Jellicent and even have a 25.78% chance to 2HKO physically defensive variants after Stealth Rock. Starmie can also use 124 EVs in Special Attack to always 2HKO physically defensive Jellicent after Stealth Rock with Thunder, although the loss of bulk is annoying. Starmie can drop Recover to run Ice Beam, giving it great all-around coverage and allowing it to act as a decent revenge killer. However, this means that Starmie will not stick around for long, losing most of its utility as a defensive spinner and leaving it as an option mostly for offensive teams. Toxic can be used over one of Starmie's coverage moves, allowing it to simultaneously beat Jellicent and Sableye as well as and badly cripple Kyurem and Latias, but those are its only significant uses.</p>

    <p>Starmie appreciates strong Fighting-types as teammates, as they can break through its biggest enemies, namely Ferrothorn, Tyranitar, and Rotom-W. Terrakion and Breloom can beat all of those Pokemon or set up on them in the case of a Pursuit-locked Tyranitar. Partners that can beat Jellicent are very helpful as well, as this Starmie variant is unable to get past it. Celebi completely shuts Jellicent down, while Choice Band Tyranitar with a lot of significant Speed investment can OHKO Jellicent with either Crunch or Pursuit, depending on whether Jellicent stays in or switches out. Celebi and most Dragon-types can easily switch into Starmie so teammates to handle them are needed. Heatran checks all of those Pokemon; Ferrothorn, Skarmory, and Scizor, (RC) do the same to a lesser degree. Ferrothorn also helps with does well against Jolteon, which can outspeed and KO Starmie, and has excellent defensive synergy with Starmie, making for an exceptional teammate.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Choice Specs
    move 1: Hydro Pump / Surf
    move 2: Psyshock / Thunderbolt
    move 3: Trick
    move 4: Rapid Spin / Ice Beam
    item: Choice Specs
    ability: Natural Cure
    nature: Timid
    evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>With a Choice Specs equipped, and possibly rain support, Starmie is able to 2HKO most of OU with just Hydro Pump, minimizing the need for prediction against all but a few targets. Surf still hits very hard while being much more reliable, but the power drop is quite noticeable. Psyshock deals with some of the Pokemon that can avoid the 2HKO from Starmie's Water-type attacks, such as Blissey and specially defensive variants of Jellicent and Rotom-W, while also OHKOing many important Pokemon, including Keldeo, Breloom, and Tentacruel (the last after Stealth Rock). On the other hand, Thunderbolt has the advantage of 2HKOing all Jellicent variants with the help of Stealth Rock and OHKOing Gyarados, but has less utility in general is less generally utile than Psyshock. Trick makes Starmie even harder to switch into, crippling any defensive answer to it, including the omnipresent Ferrothorn and Celebi, and is one of the main distinguishing features of Starmie over the other common Water-type Choice Specs wielder, Keldeo. Furthermore, by getting rid of Choice Specs with Trick, Starmie gains the advantage of being able to switch moves and is able to use Rapid Spin without becoming utter setup bait. Rapid Spin works well great with Trick, as after Starmie cripples one of its counters with it, it can work as a spinner too, allowing Starmie to effectively fill three main roles for its team: hard hitter, lure, and spinner. However, if Rapid Spin support is not of great importance for important for Starmie's team, then Ice Beam is the next best option to deal with the Grass- and Dragon-types that check Starmie, such as Celebi and Latias.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>This set greatly benefits from rain, as very few Few Pokemon can avoid the 2HKO from Starmie's Hydro Pump in rain, making Politoed a very good teammate. The presence of rain also allows Starmie to use Thunder, which hits just as hard as a STAB Psyshock and has a nifty 30% paralysis chance, which can screw over some of Starmie's common switch-ins, such as Latios, Latias, and Kyurem-B. Analytic is a great option over Natural Cure, especially if Starmie has rain support in rain, where Analytic-boosted Hydro Pump and Thunder becomes incredibly become lethal; to give you an example, with the Analytic boost, Thunder always OHKOes physically defensive Jellicent and rain-boosted Hydro Pump deals 51.7% - 60.79% to standard Ferrothorn. While this set doesn't have any real counters due to the extreme power that rain and Choice Specs-boosted Water-type attacks provide, as well as Trick and Trick's ability to cripple would-be walls, bulky Grass- and Dragon-types are still problematic to Starmie. Terrakion, Weavile, Breloom, and Scizor are all great offensive partners for Starmie, as they can take advantage of Starmie's common switch-ins, such as Celebi, Ferrothorn, and Latias, and even trap most of them in Weavile's and Scizor's case. On the defensive side, Celebi and Ferrothorn can both handle the Electric- and Grass-type attacks that threaten Starmie while also setting up entry hazards that to help Starmie get certain OHKOs and 2HKOs, such as the the nearly guaranteed 2HKO (98.83% chance) on specially defensive Jellicent with Thunderbolt and the guaranteed 2HKO on Blissey with Psyshock, both after Stealth Rock damage. Finally, any offensive Pokemon with similar counters to Starmie makes for a good partner, as this Starmie is a fine lure due to its unexpectedly strong attacks and Trick, which cripple many of its common check and counters, especially those that lack reliable recovery, such as Ferrothorn and specially defensive Rotom-W. Choice Scarf Keldeo, Dragon Dance Gyarados, and Swords Dance Feraligatr are all Pokemon that can sweep easily after Starmie successfully weakens the opposing team.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Choice Scarf
    move 1: Hydro Pump / Surf
    move 2: Ice Beam
    move 3: Thunderbolt
    move 4: Trick
    item: Choice Scarf
    ability: Natural Cure
    nature: Timid
    evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>While Starmie doesn't have the highest Special Attack around, its great Speed and wide coverage allow it to become a decent revenge killer that can outspeed the whole metagame when holding a Choice Scarf. Hydro Pump is Starmie's main STAB, OHKOing Pokemon such as Terrakion outside of Sandstorm and Landorus while also allowing Starmie to sometimes clean up late-game if rain is present. Surf is more reliable but misses the guaranteed OHKO on Terrakion and makes it much harder for Starmie to clean up. Ice Beam takes care of the plethora of boosting sweepers weak to it, such as Salamence, Dragonite, and Garchomp, while also hitting Grass-types super effectively. Thunderbolt deals with Gyarados and Keldeo to an extent, as well as hitting while hitting most other Water-types for solid damage. Trick rounds off out the set and makes sure that Starmie won't be the easiest thing isn't easy to switch into, as well as making Starmie much more useful against especially by defensive teams.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Psyshock can be used over Thunderbolt to take advantage of the fact that Starmie outspeeds Choice Scarf Keldeo, as Psyshock can OHKO it after a bit of residual damage, unlike Thunderbolt, which barely deals over half to Keldeo and struggles to do any real damage to it if it has aquired any Calm Mind boosts. Psyshock also hits Venusaur harder than anything else Starmie can use, usually OHKOing it after Life Orb or Stealth Rock damage. Given that Choice Scarf Starmie outspeeds standard Venusaur under sun, it can be very helpful in a tight situation. Thunder can replace Thunderbolt if Starmie is being used on a rain team, as the extra power and improved paralysis chance are always appreciated. Rapid Spin can also be used over Thunderbolt for teams that can already deal with Water-types and have only one slot to dedicate for both a spinner and a revenge killer.</p>

    <p>Starmie needs to have Ferrothorn, Celebi, Latias, and sturdy Water-type resists taken care of in order to work effectively. The classic Starmie partners work well, which means that Scizor, Terrakion, and Breloom are all great choices. Politoed is also a very beneficial teammate to power up Starmie's main STAB and give it some sweeping potential after Water-type resists have been weakened or eliminated.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Starmie can use a dual screens set, but it faces major competition from Azelf, which has Stealth Rock and Taunt over Starmie, making it a more successful Pokemon in that role overall. However, Starmie does have some advantages over Azelf, and those are Water-type STAB, Recover, Natural Cure, and Rapid Spin, so make sure to take advantage of them. Hidden Power Fire can be used on any set if Starmie is being used on a sun team, mainly to hit Ferrothorn and Scizor, two Pokemon that can hit Starmie hard and Starmie can't properly damage otherwise under sun, and even outside of it in Ferrothorn's case. Hidden Power Grass and Grass Knot are options for teams that struggle with Gastrodon and Rotom-W while still hitting most Water-types, such as Jellicent and Politoed. However, Starmie loses coverage on Flying-types and Tentacruel as well as Tentacruel and Gyarados, leaving it easier to wall in general. Signal Beam can be used on any offensive set to 2HKO Celebi, one of Starmie's hardest enemies to remove. When used on a hail team, Starmie can opt to use Blizzard over Ice Beam, highly increasing its damage output. Thunder Wave allows Starmie to support its team and cripple some of its usual switch-ins, including Latias, Kyurem, and Kyurem-B. Starmie can also support its team by changing the weather to more favorable or less threatening conditions with Rain Dance or Hail. This strategy is more effective usually only effective if the opponent's weather starter is down, though. Rain Dance powers up Starmie's Water-type STAB moves but isn't effective is redundant against rain teams, while Hail is only usable to cancel out the opponent's weather but is effective against all of the most popular weathers.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Chansey and specially defensive Celebi are the best counters to Starmie, as they are able to handle every single one of Starmie's sets with no worries, except for the rare Trick and the even rarer offensive sets with Analytic. Ferrothorn completely walls Starmie, can punish the use of Rapid Spin with Iron Barbs, and can OHKO back with Power Whip while only fearing a Scald burn from defensive variants, which admittedly troubles Ferrothorn a lot. Blissey can take on most Starmie variants easily, fearing only Psyshock from Life Orb and Choice Specs variants and Trick. Calm Mind Latias can switch into anything Starmie has, except for Life Orb-boosted Ice Beam, and start setting up on it, making it an excellent check to Starmie. Defensive variants of Kyurem-B wall most offensive sets of Starmie and can set up on them, but can't switch into defensive Starmie so well, in fear of a Scald burn, which would neuter Kyurem-B. Kyurem makes for a very good switch-in to defensive Starmie, as unlike Kyurem-B it doesn't mind getting burned, and can set up a Substitute to comfortably start attacking. All offensive versions of Kyurem and Kyurem-B can also check offensive Starmie with Leftovers pretty well, avoiding the 2HKO from all of its moves even with Stealth Rock up. All Jellicent variants are also very good checks to Starmie, walling Starmie's defensive set and preventing Rapid Spin from working. Furthermore, physically defensive Jellicent walls offensive Starmie sets with Psyshock while specially defensive Jellicent walls offensive Starmie sets with Thunderbolt (Thunder 2HKOes both variants easily though). Rotom-W, especially the specially defensive set, is an excellent switch-in to Starmie, resisting Hydro Pump and not fearing any of its coverage moves aside from Life Orb or Choice Specs-boosted Psyshock and Thunder. Amoonguss is a good check to Starmie that lack Psyshock, as it is able to switch into anything but Ice Beam and 2HKO Starmie with Giga Drain. Any Starmie set that lacks Ice Beam can be taken advantage of by the various Dragon-types that reside in OU, such as Dragonite and Latios.</p>

    <p>Pursuit users have the potential to eliminate Starmie under certain circumstances. Tyranitar can trap and KO Starmie with Pursuit, provided it switches in as Starmie uses Rapid Spin or comes in for free in some other way and avoids getting burned from Scald. Scizor can do the same with Pursuit as long as it too gets in for free but fails to trap Life Orb and Choice Specs Starmie in rain, as those sets can OHKO with Hydro Pump. Weavile is the only Pursuit user that has the advantage of outspeeding Starmie, but like other Pursuit users, it struggles to switch into Starmie, as Hydro Pump from offensive variants threatens to OHKO and Scald from defensive sets can neuter Weavile with a burn. Finally, most faster Pokemon can revenge kill Starmie. For example, Jolteon, Alakazam, Choice Scarf Latios, Choice Scarf Terrakion, and Choice Scarf Landorus can all dent or OHKO Starmie, but most of them can't really switch in effectively.</p>


    [gp]2/2[/gp]
  5. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2009
    Messages:
    6,946
    GP implemented. Some things to note:

    I didn't remove the comma in the first sentence of the set comments of the offensive spinner, as Starmie's offensive presence and its ability to 2HKO every spinblocker are two separate facts, and the latter is not a product of the first, as your change implies.

    You basically said that a OHKO makes no difference than a 2HKO which is absurd. By OHKOing Jellicent after SR, you don't only save 10% of your life, you also avoid the possibility of Jellicent coming in later to attempt and block Starmie's spin, as well as the possibility of Jellicent absorbing Hydro Pump with Water Absorb. A dead Jellicent is very different from a weakened Jellicent, simple as that.

    And Starmie has Rapid Spin which removes Leech Seed, leaving Ferrothorn with no healing source, unless he keeps spamming Leech Seed, which only has 16 PPs, while Starmie can slowly harass Ferrothorn with Scald and heal whenever necessary.

    I don't think that it is necessary to state this. Iirc we don't mention sand every time we talk about a OHKO-2HKO on Terrakion with a special attacks. Sand is something extra, and unless stated is not present.

    Unless there is an issue with what i didn't implement, this is done!
  6. relaunched

    relaunched

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2012
    Messages:
    299
    A combination of Leech Seed and Iron Barbs makes it hard for Starmie to keep its health at max, meaning that a crit Power Whip (out of sixteen) can often give Ferrothorn the win. Starmie might still have the advantage, and certainly doesn't mind much when you take other teammates into account, but it's definitely not true that Starmie can outstall Ferrothorn "with ease", as Ferrothorn with Power Whip and Leech Seed have a significant chance of beating it one-on-one.

    So I think you should delete the highlighted words. Also, so sorry for putting my comment in blue when it should've been in green. Outside of the Ferrothorn change, I agree that you shouldn't implement the ones you mentioned.
  7. dice

    dice follow @smogmogu for hot content
    is a Contributor Alumnusis Smogon Frontier's Arcade Star

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2012
    Messages:
    2,112
    If Ferrothorn gets Scald'd, it's going to lose most of the time. It's not a standstill except it gets a Leech Seed up and a crit, but this is a very unlikely scenario. I agree with alexwolf.

    edit: scms'd and waiting for cache
  8. relaunched

    relaunched

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2012
    Messages:
    299
    It's not a standstill no matter what, as it shouldn't come down to PP Stall or some such, so I shouldn't have used that term. However, repeated Leech Seed and Iron Barbs damage in tandem with Power Whip clearly mean Starmie will very rarely be at full health. To explain a common situation, if Starmie is Seeded it can either Recover, bringing it to at most 7/8 after Leech Seed, or it can spin, bringing it to at most 13/16 after past turn's Leech Seed damage and Iron Barbs. This situation repeats, as Ferrothorn harasses Starmie with Leech Seed and Power Whip. It's worse if Ferrothorn has Protect. Consider that the possibility of a critical hit among 8 Power Whips is 40%, or among 16 Power Whips is 64%, this amounts to a significant chance of Ferrothorn winning. I wish we could run a simulation on this situation, as this would allow us a definitive answer. However, my logic seems fairly sound here. Ferrothorn likely loses most of the time (when burnt, of course), but it's misleading to say that Starmie beats it "with ease" or that Ferrothorn winning is "very unlikely." Saying this is like saying that Stone Edge is a very reliable move.
  9. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2009
    Messages:
    5,158
    Uploading, good work alexwolf.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)