1. Welcome to Smogon! Check out the Smogon Starters Hangout for everything you need to know about starting out in the community. Don't forget to introduce yourself in the Introduction and Hangout Thread, too!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

Tangrowth (BW2 Revamp) [QC: 3/3] [GP: 2/2]

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by blazeVA, May 6, 2013.

  1. blazeVA

    blazeVA

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2011
    Messages:
    43
    Sorry for taking so long, going to implement to GP check above.

    Now, about the second set, I'll talk to ginganinja and the people who QCed the skeleton about it. I remember seeing from swamprocket's old thread that Double Chlorophyll was actually removed from the original skeleton when swamprocket had it initially. I'm on the fence about it myself. I really don't find the lower speed to be too much of an issue. Few Scarfers can take down a full health Tangrowth with the exception of Latios and Victini/Darmanitan. The latter two aren't seen often, and Venusaur really doesn't like Scarf Latios either. I spent a while playtesting Tangrowth out and I found it works pretty well as a solo-Chlorosweeper.

    But i'll look into it, and again, apologies for taking so long about this.
  2. ginganinja

    ginganinja Member of the Gamefreak ORAS Balancing Team
    is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2009
    Messages:
    3,792
    O.k a couple of things.

    Firstly, lets be clear here, Venusaur is a much MUCH better Chlorophyll Sweeper than Tangrowth. Its faster, its walled by less, it has nice well rounded bulk, it has good typing etc etc. This isn't to say that you cannot run Tangrowth, but if you ARE running Solo Tangrowth on a team, you need to answer WHY you are using it over Venusuar, because Venusaur borderline outclasses it.

    Secondly, Tangrowth is slow. This just cannot be understated. There is a difference between a 20% + 2 +2 Venusaur (which is unrevengable outside of priority, changing the weather, or Scarf Lati@s) and a 20% +2 +2 Tangrowth which gets revenged by pretty much every scarfer, Between your low speed, LO damage, SR damage, and any damage you might have taken via setting up, its a lot easier for a scarfer to switch in and do enough damage to defeat you.

    Just going to highlight this line, because you are underrating the power of scarfers vs Tangrowth. Here are some calcs against standard scarfers.

    Note that Rotom-W cannot OHKO Tangrowth.... but after Stealth Rock +1 one round of Life Orb damage, your done. Heck, If Stealth Rock is up (not saying it always will be but to put things into perspective) and if Rotom-W rolls max it will kill you, period. If you rolls low you are sitting at something like 3% health after Life Orb damage, which is just lol. Sure, if you are at 100% full its not OHKOing, but thats not the point, because as long as Scarf Rotom-W is around, you are not sweeping.

    Lets look at another Scarfer.

    This example isn't the best one, since it involves changing the weather which means Venu and Tangrowth no longer outspeed... but Politoed is a standard scarfer so I feel like I need to mention it. Now look at Tangrowth. Its getting OHKOed after SR, shit, it cannot even kill Politoed without dying. It cannot use a single damaging attack since that means Politoed revenges it. Venusaur on the other hand can (if required), tank the Ice Beam and Giga Drain back some health.

    Yea, you lose to this scarfer as well, especially when it has well over a 50% shot at OHKOing you, and again, you cannot kill it without dying.

    Yep, you don't beat this thing.

    If Garchomp runs Fire Blast then you are, in fact, toast.

    This is the big one, because Scarf Keldeo is standard as fuck and it has a chance to OHKO you from full health, and the smallest bit of residual damage will only increase its changes.

    So "technically" from full health Tangrowth can take hits from many scarfers, it is true. The issue is that all of the above scarfers WILL prevent Tangrowth sweeping a team, and if its your solo clorophyller, then that is big. If I have a rain team, I would potentially be fine swapping my Scarf Keldeo for your Tangrowth, especially if its your only Chlorophyll user and if I wouldn't need Keldeo for your Volcarona or somethnig. Contrast this to Venusaur, which usually makes Keldeo a deadweight due to its excellent bulk, speed, and Giga Drain.

    Basically, summing up, Tangrowth NEEDS another chlorophyll user with it, or its not sweeping through teams, because you CANNOT sweep when nearly every scarfer besides Terrakion wins against you (either KOing you or utterly crippling you). Typically, Venusaur is a sun teams win condition, because bugger all outspeeds it, and it destroys everthing, while Tangrowth is a worse win condition because it requires scarfers to be gone. Tangrowth has a nice niche in that it weakens walls for other Chlorophyll sweepers such as Venusaur and Sawsbuck, thus allowing them to get crucial KOs they might otherwise miss out on (For instance, Latias does not like going head to head against Tangrowth, as it means Venusaur has a chance at beating it when it falls low). Furthermore, Rain teams hate double chlorophyll since there are now 2 grass types you need to beat (which pack super effective coverage on most of your team) and that is frustrating.

    tl;dr

    I have my approval assuming you would follow my recommendations. If you want to proceed, you will either need to convince me that my point is wrong, change your analysis to reflect my analysis, or find someone else to approve this analysis (and hope they don't support my recommendations!). Tangrowth is best used in conjunction with Venusaur and other chlorophyll sweepers, and this NEEDS to be heavily addressed.
  3. blazeVA

    blazeVA

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2011
    Messages:
    43
    Okay, I understand. I forgot about quite a few scarfers, my fault. I'll change the latter analysis. Now to figure out how to word it...
  4. tehy

    tehy

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2010
    Messages:
    1,620
    When you talk about teammate synergy, expand a bit, you're giving very little detail there, often just saying they have good synergy

    Power whip sucks if you're burned, which may happen due to scald and just Jellicent WoW

    For OO synthesis, leech seed also gives you healing

    Checks and Counters needs to be just kind of overhauled, you don't need more than 2-3 paragraphs at most. Start with:Defensive set, before sleep powder, after sleep powder HP ice, after sleep powder HP fire. Then chlorophyll, HP ice, HP fire. The beginning paragraph can just be cut down to a single sentence that leads off the next paragraph 'Tangrowth is hard to counter since it's defensive and has regenerator/sleep powder.'
  5. Ender

    Ender #scrublyfe
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2013
    Messages:
    312
    Amateur Proofread
    I used to lurk on these forums a lot, especially in C&C, but not so much recently. However, I'm looking to get back into the swing of things, so I figured that I would start here.

    [​IMG]
    GP Approved 1/2 once changes are made.
    If you have questions about any changes I recommended, please let me know.

    Deletions
    Additions
    [Comments]

    Proofread (open)

    [Overview]


    <p>Tangrowth had a good niche back in the days of Excadrill, but it can still hold its own. Although Tangrowth lost its most useful niche with the exclusion of Excadrill from OU, it can still be a valuable addition to many teams. However, since Amoonguss got Regenerator in BW2, Tangrowth gained more competition faces more competition than ever before for a team slot, especially since it was already overshadowed by the vaunted Ferrothorn. The famed Ferrothorn also seems to be a better defensive Grass-type. However, that is not to say that Tangrowth is entirely useless; in fact, it has several distinct advantages over its more popular contemporaries. Tangrowth does have some good points over the two though, it Tangrowth has more physical bulk than Amoonguss, and has access to Regenerator and Sleep Powder, unlike over Ferrothorn. It can even take an offensive approach with Chlorophyll, which makes it a powerful mixed sweeper than that can catch teams off-guard. Unfortunately, this is the extent of Tangrowth's usefulness. This is where the good points stop however. It has trouble with rain, sun, and hail teams, since it doesn't have enough special bulk its special bulk is not enough to stomach survive powerful moves such as Fire Blast, Blizzard, and even Hydro Pump. Additionally, powerful mixed sweepers can spell an early doom for Tangrowth. However, Tangrowth does have the ability niche of being able to take on most physical attackers and sweep unprepared teams.</p> [I use ability over niche because niche implies it is something that only Tangrowth can do, which isn't the case in this situation].

    [SET]
    name: Physically Defensive
    move 1: Sleep Powder
    move 2: Leech Seed / Knock Off
    move 3: Giga Drain / Power Whip
    move 4: Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Fire
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Regenerator
    nature: Bold / Relaxed
    evs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Tangrowth has very nice physical bulk, and this set takes full advantage of it. This set takes full advantage of Tangrowth's impressive physical bulk. With Regenerator, it can safely scout powerful physical attackers such as Terrakion and switch out if need be, healing one-third of its health every time it does so. This gives it a great advantage over other physical walls such as Ferrothorn, since it can switch out with little to no repercussions. Sleep Powder is a great move for incapacitating a switch-in putting a switch-in to sleep, and with BW sleep mechanics, this means that the opponent will be remain useless throughout most of the match. Leech Seed gives Tangrowth more recovery, especially against Pokemon with high HP stats. This also It is helps to heal other teammates, because Tangrowth often switches out of a seeded opponent and brings new teammates in [Isn't this implied?]. Knock Off is another option to make opposing Pokemon less effective by removing their item. It's especially useful against physical Choice item users or even against Keldeo locked into Secret Sword. Giga Drain is the best choice for a STAB move, as it heals Tangrowth even more and easily 2HKOes Pokemon such as Terrakion and physically defensive Hippowdon, while neither of them can break through Tangrowth. Power Whip, however, is a more powerful option for hitting Tyranitar, specially defensive Politoed, and Jellicent, but it has lower accuracy than Giga Drain and doesn't have the added benefit of healing heal Tangrowth either. The final move is a choice between two different Hidden Powers;. [changed semicolon to period] Hidden Power Ice is the preferred option for hitting [you have an extra space here] Dragon-types such as Dragonite and Salamence, keeping them from setting up on Tangrowth while dealing with the Choiced variants easily. Hidden Power Fire, on the other hand, can hit Steel-types such as Scizor, Forretress, and Ferrothorn, for good damage, especially in the sun.</p>

    [ADDTIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The EVs on this set can be tweaked to outspeed certain threats and defeat them before they give you problems. A spread of 248 HP / 168 Def / 84 Spe can be used to outspeed specially defensive Jellicent and either put it to sleep or 2HKO it with Power Whip. A spread of 248 HP / 128 Def / 124 Spe lets you outspeed uninvested Scizor and neutral-natured Tyranitar. Be aware that this This will lower Tangrowth's physical bulk though, thus making it more susceptible to 2HKOes from the likes of Choice Band Tyranitar after Stealth Rock damage. If a Relaxed nature is used, one is using a Relaxed nature, then Tangrowth will need a lot more EVs: [changed ; to :] 156 for Jellicent and 200 for Scizor, and it may not be worth lowering its physical bulk for a slightly more powerful Power Whip. However, a Relaxed nature is better for catching Jellicent on the switch, 2HKOing it even if Tangrowth is gets burned on the next turn. Other moves that one could use include Stun Spore to spread even more status around, though this is an inefficient use defeats the purpose of Tangrowth, as Amoonguss mostly outclasses it with this set of moves. Leaf Storm is another powerful option for hitting Pokemon such as Jellicent, as it can possibly 2HKO specially defensive Jellicent with Stealth Rock damage, but a lowered Special Attack makes it a lot easier for Dragon- or Steel-types to setup on you, especially Dragonite. Earthquake is your best option against Jirachi, especially particularly the Calm Mind variants who can shrug off Hidden Power Fire, and it also easily deals with Heatran. Focus Blast is your best move against Ferrothorn in rain, though it has shaky accuracy and won't always 2HKO. It is also Tangrowth's best move for hitting the Kyurem formes on the switch.</p>

    <p>One of the best partners for Tangrowth is Heatran, as Heatran has excellent synergy with it, and they resist every one of each other's weaknesses except for Heatran's Fighting weakness, but Fighting. Heatran can also spread burns around with Lava Plume, making Tangrowth's job a lot easier, and walls some of the special attackers that give Tangrowth problems. Heatran also does well against sun and hail teams, which are both of which are problems for Tangrowth, while Tangrowth can handle the various Ground-, Water-, and Fighting-types that give Heatran trouble a lot of problems. Another option great idea is to pair Tangrowth up with Slowbro or Slowking, since it this forms a dual-Regenerator core that can be a nightmare to face. Entry hazards trouble Tangrowth, as they cut into its best form of recovery in Regenerator. Spinners such as Tentacruel are good for the nice synergy they have with Tangrowth, and Tentacruel can handle rain teams with Rain Dish and good defenses. Forretress is another option since it gives another physically defensive Pokemon to pair Tangrowth up with, but the shared Fire weakness can be is problematic.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Chlorophyll Sweeper
    move 1: Growth / Swords Dance
    move 2: Power Whip
    move 3: Earthquake
    move 4: Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Fire / Sleep Powder
    item: Life Orb
    ability: Chlorophyll
    nature: Naughty / Adamant
    evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe

    <p>This Tangrowth plays a completely different role from the other set, focusing more on dealing damage then taking it. While one may want to use Venusaur instead of Tangrowth, Tangrowth can deal with priority moves a lot better thanks to its great natural bulk[end sentence]. and it Tangrowth also has a much stronger higher Attack than Venusaur and access to Power Whip, over Venusaur which is surprising for teams who prepare for it instead of Tangrowth. Growth is the preferred boosting move on this set, as it raises both offenses, thus allowing Tangrowth to use a strong Hidden Power. If one Tangrowth is not using any special attacks, Swords Dance is the better choice for setting up outside of weather or as a weather inducer comes in, as Tangrowth outspeeds every weather inducer outside of Choice Scarf Politoed and Tyranitar, and can slam both of them with Power Whip. This will give away the fact that Tangrowth isn't running any special moves, however, and that could keep prevent it from having much of an impact. Power Whip is the STAB move of choice because it packs a lot of power, and can easily OHKO specially defensive Pokemon such as Blissey who might give Venusaur trouble. since it is physical, a lot of specially defensive Pokemon such as Blissey who might be able to take on Venusaur are easily OHKOed by it. Earthquake easily OHKOes is the best move for taking out Heatran and Jirachi, easily OHKOing both of these Pokemon. It is also the best move against Volcarona and other Fire-types. The last move is a choice of between either Hidden Power for more coverage or a speedy Sleep Powder. Hidden Power Ice is again the preferred option as without it, Dragon-types will give you the problems, especially Dragonite and Salamence since they greatly resist Power Whip and are immune to Earthquake. Hidden Power Fire, however, is best for hitting Scizor, Skarmory, and Ferrothorn, and it also gets a power boost under the sun. In addition, both Hidden Powers will deal a lot of damage to Grass-types as well. Sleep Powder is a final the last option, and it that can be used to disable a switch-in and allow Tangrowth to get a free boost, but Grass / Ground has poor coverage is not very good and Tangrowth will lose to quite a few Pokemon without the help of a Hidden Power.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>A Naughty nature is used because all priority outside of the rare Vacuum Wave Lucario is physical, and lowering Tangrowth's Defense will make it more vulnerable to priority; it also allows it to go mixed more effectively. If you are Tangrowth is using Sleep Powder, an Adamant nature is the best choice since you it won't be using its Special Attack.</p>

    <p>Ninetales is an obvious partner because of Drought, since Tangrowth outside of sun is a very sub-par offensive Pokemon if used offensively. Keep in mind that its Speed is still pretty low even with a Chlorophyll boost, so Choice Scarfed Fire-types that can take advantage of the sun such as Darmanitan, Victini, and even Infernape [removed comma] are good revenge killers for Tangrowth to be paired up with. Heatran is again a great teammate becauase it keeps hail teams at bay for Tangrowth, it works great well in the sun as well, and has very good synergy with Tangrowth. It can also be paired along with Venusaur, allowing by utilizing Tangrowth to break through walls such as Blissey and Heatran [can Tangrowth actually break through Heatran though? I realize it can outspeed an OHKO with Chlorophyll, but it can't switch in safely; however, this is a digression, so I won't comment on it further] so that the much faster Venusaur can sweep. Choice Scarf Terrakion is a great teammate to beat other Fire-types on opposing sun teams, as Choice Scarf variants will easily outspeed and defeat Tangrowth. Tangrowth will also beat most of Terrakion's checks and counters, especially Landorus-T and Scizor. If you want to run Hidden Power Fire, then Mamoswine can easily beat Dragon-types with Ice Shard, making it easier for Tangrowth to sweep the opponent's team.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>A Choice Specs set with Leaf Storm / Focus Blast / Sleep Powder / Hidden Power Fire is also a good set, as Regenerator will allow it to play a very strong "hit-and-run" play style. Its base 50 Speed and shaky coverage holds this set back though, making it difficult for Tangrowth to beat some faster teams. Synthesis can be used on the defensive sets for more recovery, but with the ever changing weather, it is not very reliable and Tangrowth has Regenerator to heal itself a lot of HP anyways. Toxic is also another option, as it can be used to combat Blissey keep Blissey at bay, but many of the other walls that Tangrowth would like to get by, such as Heatran, Forretress, and Skarmory, are not affected by it. Rock Slide is best for hitting Volcarona and Thundurus-T, but it doesn't have good coverage on any other threats, and has a low base power for a coverage move.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>As the defensive Tangrowth is going to be switching in and out a lot, bringing in a counter against it can be difficult; [changed , to ;] however, it isn't too difficult to predict when it will switch, allowing you to potentially defeat its switch-in. The threat of Sleep Powder cannot be ignored eitehr either, as losing a potential counter to sleep is never beneficial a good thing.</p>

    <p>Latias is probably one of the best counters for the defensive set, since it can set up a Substitute of on Sleep Powder, and then just Calm Mind from there. Tangrowth cannot break Latias's Substitute with Hidden Power Ice if she is at +1, which allows Latias to either boost at her leisure or take out Tangrowth with boosted special moves. Celebi is also another excellent counter, as it doesn't worry about Sleep Powder because of Natural Cure, and it can boost, set up Stealth Rock, or simply attack it while Tangrowth struggles to do anything meaningful in return. Ironically enough, Amoonguss is also a good counter, as with its good special bulk it doesn't worry about Hidden Power Ice, and can Spore Tangrowth or use its own Hidden Power to damage it. Other Grass-types are also can be good counters, especially if they pack a special move. Venusaur can put it Tangrowth down with a STAB Sludge Bomb, while Virizion can boost on Tangrowth and defeat it with Focus Blast or Hidden Power.</p>

    <p>Heatran is an issue if Tangrowth doesn't run Earthquake, as it takes little from Giga Drain or Hidden Power and easily beats Tangrowth with Fire Blast or Lava Plume. Other Fire-types give Tangrowth problems because they can deal a lot of damage to it with their super effective STAB moves. Darmanitan can even push an OHKO on Tangrowth with Flare Blitz, while Victini can use Blue Flare to hit in it on the special side; they both fear a possible Earthquake, [added comma] however. While Dragonite and Salamence need to worry about Hidden Power Ice, Dragonite can easily set up on any Tangrowth without that lacks it, [added comma] while Salamence can use uses Fire Blast or Draco Meteor to easily defeat Tangrowth. Both of the Kyurem formes are good counters because they can either muscle through Tangrowth or use Ice Beam and Blizzard to hit it on its special side. Toxicroak is an absolute terror for Tangrowth to face in rain, since Tangrowth cannot break Toxicroak's Substitutes, making it easy for Toxicroak to set up Bulk Ups and KO it with Drain Punch. In general, Steel-types are your best bet if Tangrowuth does not run Hidden Power or Earthquake. Scizor will take a huge chunk out of it with U-turn, while Magnezone and Jirachi can set up and defeat Tangrowth with special attacks.</p>

    <p>The Chlorophyll sweeper set is harder to counter because of its great power and coverage, but it becomes much less of a threat if it does not run a Hidden Power., if one chooses to drop Hidden Power, it does become easier. Skarmory is probably the best counter overall if Tangrowth lacks Hidden Power Fire, since it easily survives a +2 Hidden Power Ice and Whirlwinds it away. If it lacks Hidden Power, then Skarmory is basically untouchable, boasting a 4x resistance to Power Whip and an immunity to Earthquake. Dragonite and Salamence are also on in a similar boat, as Dragonite can set up on Tangrowth and Salamence can beat it with Fire Blast. Venusaur can switch in on Power Whip, outspeed it in the sun, and use Sludge Bomb to wipe it out. Choice Scarfed Fire types can easily revenge kill Tangrowth because of its low speed. Abomasnow can slow it down by changing the weather and threaten an immediate KO with Blizzard.</p>[/quote]

    Last edited: Aug 1, 2013
  6. Oglemi

    Oglemi gimme
    is a Tournament Directoris a member of the Site Staffis a Community Contributoris a Pokemon Researcheris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributoris an Administratoris a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
    C&C Leader

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2009
    Messages:
    9,079
    implemented that check and added one of my own

    we're done here
    Ender likes this.
  7. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2009
    Messages:
    5,158

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)