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Teambuilding 101 (Round 2: Django, DTC, EBeast)

Discussion in 'BW NU' started by Zebraiken, Nov 1, 2012.

  1. Django

    Django
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    Yeah what I meant was it takes a ridiculous amount of time to get above ~1700 or so where you can start facing decent teams, and before that you just spend hours getting trampled by the most ridiculous shit that you're not prepared for. Couple that with the fact that like 4 alts have been ruined by extreme amounts of luck and yes, I am upset. I'll get there eventually it's just a lot longer and more boring than playing with offense.

    Also DTC you were ded for ages...
  2. ebeast

    ebeast she's probably sexting nprtprt
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    Yeah I have experienced the whole alt getting ruined by luck thing that messed up like 3 of my alts I was laddering with. With that team my games usually are around 40 - 80 turns, although after playing about 20 games I've actually been finding stall somewhat enjoyable. (unless it's Stall vs Stall, I don't ever want to play that) Even though it takes forever, feeling in control of the match most of the time is a great feeling. Except when I face counterteam crap like Taunt + Pain Split + Heal Bell Misdreavus, I had to freeze it with Regice's Ice Beam and setting up all of my hazards then to stand a chance before I changed my Garbo's spread.
  3. DTC

    DTC ˢᵉʳᶦᵒᵘˢ
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    Stall is a challenging team archetype to make if you want a successful team. You have to acknowledge the fact that you cannot beat everything. Beating able to reliably beat every top threat and have the tools a stall team appreciates is very challenging. However, a well built stall team is extremely hard to break through. Whenever I have used stall teams in the past, I noticed that there were usually one or two threats on an opposing team that are annoying to beat, and the rest is pretty easy to wall.

    Alright, so now to talk about my team. I really wanted to use Ampharos, but I decided to go a different route when building my team. Sorry people who were banking on me using Ampharos! So what did I decide on? I decided on using stall with Musharna and Spikes. I have always been a huge fan of Musharna. It's such a reliable Pokemon with its amazing bulk and formidable offenses. Heal Bell is very useful for stall teams to have as well. Calm Mind Musharna also gives me a win condition, which I think is important for every team to have.

    There really is not a big slate of Pokemon with Spikes in NU, so I decided to go with Garbodor. I am not much of a fan of Garbodor. It's pretty bulky, but it is very easy to wear down which is unfortunate. To compliment Garbodor's Spikes, I decided to use RestTalk Throh. Throh does not offer any useful resistances, but it is quite bulky and arguably the best phazer in the tier. I have always been annoyed by the lack of good phazers in the tier. It is quite troublesome for teams like this.

    The next two Pokemon were put on the team without much thought. Mostly because there is little thought needed. Lickilicky and Regirock are the two most reliable defensive Pokemon in the tier. They can wall practically anything that tries to attack them. Amoonguss is up there too, but unfortunately I did not have room for it on this team! Anyways, I love Lickilicky and Regirock, but unfortunately they are both weak to Fighting-types. Thankfully, Musharna and to a lesser extent, Garbodor, solve that problem.

    Alright, so now I have phazing, cleric, and hazards covered. A spinblocker would be nice, but I am not too concerned about that. I am more concerned about the dilemma I am faced with: Offensive Water-types, Emboar, Musharna, Haunter, and SubBU Braviary are huge threats to my team. I obviously cannot cover all of them. That is impractical. I will have to come to some kind of compromise.

    I considered many Pokemon for this last spot: Ludicolo, Mantine, Frillish, Regice, Amoonguss, and Ampharos. I eventually decided to go with a physically defensive Frillish. Frillish is a very solid answer to Emboar and Swords Dance Samurott. It also does well against Musharna to an extent and brings Taunt to the table. Two other things I also appreciated was the fact that Frillish can spinblock and its Normal immunity. Having another solid Normal-type answer is always great. Unfortunately, since I decided to use a physically defensive spread with Bold (Choice Band Emboar has a much easier time 2HKO'ing Calm Frillish), special attacking Water-types are still a gigantic pain, but Frillish can at least tank an attack or two from them and use Toxic. SubBU Braviary can be Taunted, but Braviary can just smash Frillish with Brave Birds. This is not exactly how I want things to be, but it is good enough. You cannot have everything.

    Now I have decided Pokemon, but I have not exactly figured out the movesets. I had a good idea of what I would use in mind, of course. Everything was pretty straightforward besides a few things. I stuck Toxic on quite a few Pokemon because it is a generally good move and helps with problem threats like SubBU Braviary. I considered using Psych Up Regirock, but decided against it. Toxic generally has more utility. I particularly like Drain Punch on Garbodor. Drain Punch is an awesome move because it hurts stuff and heals at the same time. Unlike Giga Drain, Drain Punch is backed by a good offensive typing. To help with the Haunter problem, I decided to use Rock Blast as the last move on Garbodor.

    I am pretty confident in my team now. It has plenty of Pokemon I enjoy using as well as a Pokemon that is rather unexplored by both me and the rest of the active NU playerbase: Throh.

    Importable (open)

    Musharna @ Leftovers
    Trait: Synchronize
    EVs: 240 HP / 252 Def / 16 Spd
    Bold Nature
    - Calm Mind
    - Moonlight
    - Psychic
    - Heal Bell

    Garbodor @ Black Sludge
    Trait: Aftermath
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spd
    Impish Nature
    - Spikes
    - Toxic Spikes
    - Drain Punch
    - Rock Blast

    Throh @ Leftovers
    Trait: Guts
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SDef
    Careful Nature
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk
    - Circle Throw
    - Ice Punch

    Regirock @ Leftovers
    Trait: Clear Body
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
    Impish Nature
    - Stealth Rock
    - Psych Up
    - Stone Edge
    - Drain Punch

    Lickilicky @ Leftovers
    Trait: Oblivious
    EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SDef
    Careful Nature
    - Wish
    - Protect
    - Return
    - Dragon Tail

    Skuntank @ Black Sludge
    Trait: Aftermath
    EVs: 252 Atk / 220 SDef / 36 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Pursuit
    - Sucker Punch
    - Poison Jab
    - Taunt


    Cheers
  4. ebeast

    ebeast she's probably sexting nprtprt
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    DTC your team is really good and Throh and Musharna work very well to support to the stall and abuse the hazards, cool choices! Pokemon that seem extremely annoying would have to be Haunter (even with Garbo Rock Blast), Eelektross, and Misdreavus. Is there a specific strategy you use to deal with these Pokemon or is there any change you could make to try and work this out?
  5. FLCL

    FLCL
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    hi dtc, duosion seems really annoying to your team, especially if its the last mon. you should consider night shade over scald on frillish since its quite redundant with toxic anyways.

    also you need 16 speed on regirock and garbodor for max speed torkoal and golem
  6. DTC

    DTC ˢᵉʳᶦᵒᵘˢ
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    I have decided to use Psych Up > Toxic on Regirock and replaced Frillish with Skuntank. This will make it much easier for me to beat troublesome threats such as Braviary, Duosion, Musharna, Haunter, and Misdreavus.

    EBeast, I am not concerned about Eelektross unless it has Acid Spray and is supported by hazards or SubCoil. Both sets are quite uncommon in this meta.
  7. FireMage

    FireMage Burnt out
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    Questions for DTC
    Why did you choose to put the remaining 8 EV's in Def rather than say, Attack on Lickylicky? Does it survive anything relevant or would it be wasted in attack? (for a slightly stronger Dragon Tail? )
    Why not choose Cloud Nine over Oblivious as it's ability? Helps against any weather abusers which might muscle their way through Licki. (I'm not sure if Wish is an egg move or event...If it's an event move then ignore, lol)
  8. Django

    Django
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    Yeah I'll clear that up, Wish is illegal with Cloud Nine, and Wish is absolutely essential (having them together would be AMAZING).
  9. DTC

    DTC ˢᵉʳᶦᵒᵘˢ
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    Hey guys, I encourage you to test the teams that have been posted in this thread. I will be testing EBeast's and maybe Django's soon. Django, please include an importable for lazy people!
  10. Amarillo

    Amarillo
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    Hi DTC i fought your stall on the ladder just now. What do you even have against Ground-types? For you to trap Golurk with Skuntank you need to sacrifice stuff. And because how stall works you can't really sacrifice stuff from the get-go. Especially to a threat that's really common. You have even worse time vs. Ground types that you can't trap with Skuntank?

    How do you deal with them

    You need a tangela / alomo either way, IMO.
  11. DTC

    DTC ˢᵉʳᶦᵒᵘˢ
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    Most Ground-types are easy enough to handle with either Musharna or Lickilicky. Golurk, however, is an exception. To play around Golurk, I have to predict around it and try to trap it with Skuntank. Not the best strategy, I know, but there is not much I can do about it without messing my team's synergy up. Toxic Regirock would have been nice, but I like Psych Up for SubBU Braviary and other statboosters.
  12. Django

    Django
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    Ya I didn't want to post an importable since I was still testing it but now I've given up tyring to ladder because it takes wayyyyy to long, here it is!
    Show Hide
    Regirock @ Leftovers
    Trait: Clear Body
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 SDef / 8 Def
    Careful Nature
    - Stealth Rock
    - Psych Up
    - Rock Slide
    - Earthquake

    Frillish @ Eviolite
    Trait: Water Absorb
    EVs: 248 HP / 216 Def / 44 Spd
    Bold Nature
    - Recover
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Night Shade
    - Toxic

    Lickilicky @ Leftovers
    Trait: Own Tempo
    EVs: 252 SDef / 248 HP / 8 Def
    Careful Nature
    - Wish
    - Heal Bell
    - Protect
    - Dragon Tail

    Skuntank @ Leftovers
    Trait: Aftermath
    EVs: 248 HP / 218 SDef / 44 Spd
    Serious Nature
    - Sucker Punch
    - Taunt
    - Pursuit
    - Poison Jab

    Tangela @ Eviolite
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 252 Def / 252 HP / 4 SAtk
    Bold Nature
    - Giga Drain
    - Synthesis
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Leech Seed

    Torkoal @ Leftovers
    Trait: White Smoke
    EVs: 252 Def / 248 HP / 8 SDef
    Bold Nature
    - Toxic
    - Rapid Spin
    - Lava Plume
    - Hidden Power [Grass]

    I honestly feel like this team covers the enitre meta really well, provided you can play well. There was no threat I came up against and thought: "Well fuck, I can't beat that", and it only lost because people started pulling hax out of their ass. Feel free to ask anything about the team and I'll do my best to explain it!
  13. Amarillo

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    Nice nature on Skuntank.
  14. Django

    Django
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    lmao I've actually been playing with that the whole time. Strong.
  15. citro

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    I HAVE SOME QUESTIONS :toast: :toast: :toast:

    1. Why have you chosen Earthquake over Drain Punch on Regirock? Drain Punch is fantastic for healing purposes, and seen more because Regirock doesn't have any reliable recovery. It pretty much covers the same things as Earthquake, and since Regirock is not primarily an attacker (shown by the lack of Attack investment) I don't see the power as much of an issue.

    2. What do the speed EVs on Frillish help it outrun? Frillish isn't very fast in the first place, and I would like to know if there is a particular threat you outspeed and burn with that spread.

    3. On Lickilicky, what's the purpose of Dragon Tail over Body Slam? Your team has no hazards except Stealth Rock to abuse phazing with. Furthermore, without a consistent STAB move, you can be set up on by many dangerous pokemon with Substitute.

    4. That Skuntank spread is new to me. Why do you have three offensive moves on a set with 0 Atk EVs? You are now notably less effective against threats like Musharna and other bulky Psychic types, not to mention Sucker Punch will be pretty weak coming off an uninvested 91 attack stat and won't really revenge kill nearly as many things as you'd hope it to. Example calc: 0Atk Skuntank (Neutral) Sucker Punch vs 4HP/0Def Zangoose (Neutral): 42% - 50% (123 - 145 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 1% chance to 2HKO.

    5. Without an effective spinner that can actually threaten Ghost types, I'd imagine you'll struggle against most Spikestacking teams. How do you deal with them usually and would you consider replacing your Torkoal with a more offensive set like SMASHKOAL?

    6. What is your actual 'win condition' of the team? Other stall teams built in this project have utilised Spikes to wear down the opponent's pokemon that much faster. They take advantage of having a check to nearly every threat in the tier to force switches and rack up residual damage. While you can also cover most pokemon in the metagame, your main form of damage output seems to be Toxic, which is a very slow way to deal damage and can be got around quite easily (Substitute, Magic Guard, Heal Bell etc). Reliance on Toxic stalling also explains why you've got so bored laddering!
    I'm not trying to pick apart your team lol, but I would really like to hear your thoughts on these. also i'm not as much of a noob as i sound right now :(
  16. Django

    Django
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    Honestly I threw it there when teambuilding so it wouldn't be a completely free switch for Golurk. I know I've got it covered by Tangela, but still. It also helps immensely against boosting Poison-types (which could otherwise seriously hurt me). Drain Punch would certainly be usable but I haven't yet felt the need for it over EQ.

    They are for minimum Speed Golem, and on that same Speed tier it hits Armaldo, Marowak and Throh.

    One of the key uses I've found so far is stopping opposing Wish-passers from passing to whatever they want. Dragon Tailing out whatever they pass to with Alomomola is very satisfying, and can change a game. I honestly haven't run into a lot of Substitute users, and the ones I do can be dealth with (Gorebyss with Frillish, and Braviary with Regirock)

    Originally I had Toxic over Poison Jab, but actually hitting stuff as it came in was too valuable. The reason for the EV spread is I really, really, need a reliable counter to Psychic types like Gardevoir, and Skuntank is among the best you can get. Even though Sucker Punch doesn't do that much without investment, I often don't need to OHKO stuff like Zangoose, as it will be easily worn down by the rest of my team.

    I think Spinning is a lot easier than you're making out. The only relevant Ghost-types in the tier are Haunter, Drifblim, Misdreavus and Frillish. Haunter and Drifblim are seriously not an issue, they are easy to wear down and do not want to switch in on Lava Plume. As for Misdreavus and Frillish, both can be trapped and worn down by Skuntank, as well not wanting to take a Toxic as they switch in. Couple this with the fact that a lot of Spikestacking teams don't even run Ghosts, and spinning is not a huge issue for me. SMASHKOAL could work, but I love being able to switch in on Emboar and have a secondary check to other Physical attackers.

    This is the one isse I have with the team, and the reason I stopped laddering with it. I just oculdn't find a way to fit an effective win condidtion on the team without completely opening it up to another threat somewhere, so I just went with it. The team still works, and can work around stuff that is immune to Toxic, it just takes a long time.

    Thanks for the comments !

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