The forgotten foe: McGar

[CWW]

Because Focus Blast misses too many times...

With the introduction of D/P and beasts such as Garchomp, numorous things that were thought to be standard changed. Slow setups like Curselax went to the thrash bin. Skarmory became a lot less effective with the advent of Close Combat. Specsmence basically forced Blisseys to pack Ice Beam. It became painfully obvious that there aren't any uses for specific counters such as McGar anymore in these times.

I wonder...

Sure, Choice Specs, Scarf and Life Orb can make Gengar a menace, but it forces the user to predict well lest it be walled. Hypnosis and Focus Blast, while being great additions, aren't too reliable and Explosion has the nasty effect of not being able to hurt Steel and Ghost. So why not add Subpunching to its arsenal?

Although McGar needs Substitute to punch, it doesn't have problems switching in with three immunities and two x4 resistances (albeit off 60/65/75 defenses). With the addition of two more Choice items, this will often induce an opponent to switch out, fearing a serious whoop ass, which will give it an opportunity to sub up. With a sub up and ready to Focus Punch, Thunderbolt or Shadow Ball/HP Ice, there's not a lot that can safely switch in.

Weavile can't do much now as Focus Punch OHKOs it. With Focus Sash it'll survive, but it won't be able to guarantee a OHKO on 272/156 Gengar with Pursuit without Choice Band. 272 HP will generate 68 HP subs and heal back 17 HP with leftovers which leaves it at 221 HP. Max Jolly Weavile can only do about 191-225 damage. Granted, Weavile is primarily used as a revenge killer.

Not only does Substitute allow Gengar to scout, it makes attacks like Pursuit and Sucker Punch less effective which would have taken out Gengars in most situations. Granted, Spiritomb points and laughs at Gengar, so it's irrelevant in that case.

It doesn't really counter Skarmbliss anymore, but I believe it can still pack a punch.

 

[megamanac]

Its a surprise once in awhile to face a McGar, but it just doesn't work as well as it did back in advance.

 

[metroidmania]

It just seems like a way to reminisce to me. It's just not as effective as before. Although it could hit hard when no one sees it coming.

 

[StrangerDanger]

iirc, i think it was posted before that a max SPATK focus blast will always do more damage to blissey than Focus punch will.

And if you're not hurting blissey...what are you hurting?

 

[Fatecrashers]

With hypnosis and focus blast gengar got some better toys to play with this gen.

 

[Sovereign]

You guys are all underestimating the damage from focus punch.

 

[NickPresta]

Well, would you care to post some calculations? How much damages comes from FP?

 

[Fishin]

iirc, i think it was posted before that a max SPATK focus blast will always do more damage to blissey than Focus punch will.

Really? That doesn't seem right...I thought Focus Punch could definitely do over 50% to Blissey, which Focus Blast can't manage.

EDIT: Focus Punch from a neutral nature and with no EV's does about 45% damage max. With 252 attack EV's, it's 53.36% - 62.75%. With no EV's and a Life Orb, 50.42% - 59.38%.

 

[teekay]

I would absolutely use focus punch before I'd use focus blast. Anything below 80 accuracy I will not touch, except a status move like hypnosis or stun spore or something.

Even if it's true a max attack focus blast will do more to blissey, it's not true that it's more reliable. Just set Gar up so that ice beams won't break its subs, and it is a much more effective Blissey killer.

I'm not suggesting this is the most dangerous Gengar. But purely for dealing with Blissey, I absolutely do think it's as good as you'll get.

 

[sa17dk]

Ive always liked subpunching with Gengar against Blissey, not because its more effective (dont actually know if it is or not) but because I hate the accuracy on Focus Blast.

 

[Tinnacious]

If this is for dealing with Blissey, wouldn't Blissey break your Sub with Ice Beam?

 

[Phuquoph]

Sub isn't that great an idea now since Sandstorm being everywhere fucks you up. Hypnosis/Focus Punch/Shadow Ball/Thunderbolt works really well though.

I ran it with Naive, 40 Atk / 216 Spd / 252 SpAtk @ Expert Belt. Focus Punch OHKOs Weavile and minimum HP Tyranitar (it still does 89 - 100% if Tyranitar has max HP) and 49 - 58% to a maxed out Blissey, 53 - 62% to a max HP/min Defense Snorlax. Just try to sleep/Focus Punch them on the switch and you'll be fine (most of the time).

 

[Dietrich]

I think SubstiFpunch Gengar still works in DP but it needs a little complement for example Toxic Spikes, if Gengar use Substitute and the oponent bring his Blissey out to wall a possible Shadow ball or thunderbolt she is going to get poisoned by the Toxic spikes, in that moment use Focus punch, everything seems like in Advance but you will see a moment where Blissey needs to use Softboiled because of the posion instead of using Ice beam to break your subs ( even if she has lefties ) and that gives you the chance to make another Substitute and then repeat the combo.

If you have the 2nd lay of toxic spikes this will work pretty well and now Blissey can't stop Substigar, the same thing for many Special attackers using substitute + Toxic spikes on the field in order to kill blissey (ie Nasty plot Houndoom with subs + Toxic Spikes, or Nasty plot Togekiss with subs + Toxic Spikes ).

 

[Anti]

If this is for dealing with Blissey, wouldn't Blissey break your Sub with Ice Beam?

McGar is the reason Ice Beam was on Blissey in advance. Seems these days a lot of battlers use Blissey with Seismic Toss as their only attack. Stealth Rock, Sing, Aroma, etc. And other stuff, it's really got options. Leaves it open to Gengar I guess.

Sub isn't that great an idea now since Sandstorm being everywhere fucks you up. Hypnosis/Focus Punch/Shadow Ball/Thunderbolt works really well though.

I ran it with Naive, 40 Atk / 216 Spd / 252 SpAtk @ Expert Belt. Focus Punch OHKOs Weavile and minimum HP Tyranitar (it still does 89 - 100% if Tyranitar has max HP) and 49 - 58% to a maxed out Blissey, 53 - 62% to a max HP/min Defense Snorlax. Just try to sleep/Focus Punch them on the switch and you'll be fine (most of the time).

That is really cool.

The standard EV spread for a special based McGar with focus punch used to be 252 SpAtt/176 Spd/80 Att with hasty nature. Now that Pokemon like Infernape can pack as much as 346 speed, you may opt to allocate those attack EVs to speed.

I'm in the process of getting two different McGars for my thread now, both with HP Ice and necessary iv's, but before I started I talked to McGraw about it. It ended up with two sets.

GENGAR @ Leftovers **TruMcGar
Hasty
252 Speed, 176 Attack, 82 Sp. Attack - Gets 210 Attack and still 316 Sp. Attack.

~Substitute
~Focus Punch
~HP Ice
~Thunderbolt

Mcgraw said that generally without a boost, Shadow Ball doesn't do as much as you'd want it to so HP Ice goes there. This one is made to kill just Blissey with Focus Punch, 210 Attack is the 2HKO.

GENGAR @ Life Orb ** Mardigar
Lonely
252 Attack, 176 Speed, 82 - Enough for 300 Speed. Could have more for Adamant Chomp / base 95's, but whatever.

~Hypnosis
~Focus Punch
~Thunderbolt
~Shadow Ball

This was both of our ideas. It's designed to be able to hit more things with Focus Punch, such as T-Tar harder. Life Orb + Sub is real bad so Hypnosis goes there, and Shadow Ball gets that extra kick.

 

[Jumpman16]

Anti, you talk about people being dumb enough to not give Blissey any Special Attack EVs, but then you go and use a 0HP/0SpD Gengar with a -SpD Nature on your Sub Gengar. Even with just 4SpA EVs Blissey does a minimum of 29% with Ice Beam to the Naive 261HP/169SpD, and if people are using the ones I recommend, all five have Ice Beam and at least 212 SpA as the main option, which means Gengar needs at least 223 SpD to have a chance for its sub not to break (min 24.9% damage). Gengar needs a lot of HP and SpD EVs to take a Blissey Ice Beam, and as you realize that's probably not worth it, you realize that a Subless variant is probably the way to go.

 

[Anti]

Oh crap, my bad. I forgot about the - nature on sp. defense :(

EDIT: Ran the numbers, and even neutral gengar takes min 26% from 4 Sp. Attack Bliss. Interesting. I only encountered Ice Beam not doing enough practically on Netbattle. Curious.

I know the analysis goes for a boost in Sp. Attack, and that's definitely the way to go. I've just seen a lot of Bliss's that run max HP / defense. Either way, Subless is really the best. Good thing it got the Hypnosis accuracy boost as well.

lol I read a quote once Jumpman where you were like "No Ice Beam on Cleric Blissey... my brain says no, but my heart... MY HEART SAYS YES."

 

[CWW]

Sub isn't that great an idea now since Sandstorm being everywhere fucks you up. Hypnosis/Focus Punch/Shadow Ball/Thunderbolt works really well though.

I ran it with Naive, 40 Atk / 216 Spd / 252 SpAtk @ Expert Belt. Focus Punch OHKOs Weavile and minimum HP Tyranitar (it still does 89 - 100% if Tyranitar has max HP) and 49 - 58% to a maxed out Blissey, 53 - 62% to a max HP/min Defense Snorlax. Just try to sleep/Focus Punch them on the switch and you'll be fine (most of the time).

While an interesting and effective set, this will only work once against Blissey as she won't switch in a second time once they find out it has Focus Punch. Then Gengar has to switch in on her and Hypnosis before it can Focus Punch.

With Sandstorm running rampant as you say and Ice Beam (with 104 SpA EVs) doing around 33 - 39% against a -SpD nature Gengar, it doesn't leave many opportunities for Gengar to do its thing. Sleep clause doesn't help either.

Truth be told, Substitute can't do anything against Blissey with Ice Beam. Thankfully, there are better Blissey counters around now.

 

[ThunderKiss]

I agree with the fact that sandstorms and hail team really hurts a sub version.

But I prefer to play a safe Gengar with 100 % accurate move than a Hypnosis and focus blast Gengar.

I've played this one:

Gengar@Leftovers
Focus Punch
Substitute
Thunderbolt
Shadow Ball

252 Spé attk 252 attack 6 HP + attk spé - def

Yes, I know no speed. French way of Pokemoning I guess. You all know how to play it. Switch in a immunity or toxic or whatever. Sub on the scared pokemon. Hit.

FP is 2HKO on Blissey

Honestly nothing can really take a stabbed shadow ball and not being weak to FP.

I know quite difficult to use but still a huge threat. Use it with an Ice beam taker pokemon (heatran, houdoomd fire dog etc....) and a wisher if possible.

Still a great pokemon. It's true that TSS haxed Garchomp is so much easy to use but I don't think it's even funny.

 

[Aeroblacktyl]

Oh crap, my bad. I forgot about the - nature on sp. defense :(

EDIT: Ran the numbers, and even neutral gengar takes min 26% from 4 Sp. Attack Bliss. Interesting. I only encountered Ice Beam not doing enough practically on Netbattle. Curious.

Maybe that's because ADV and DP have different damage forumlas......

 

[Dan Dan]

I have to agree with Phuq, I prefer using Hypnosis to Substitute, even though the accuracy sometimes hurts, I feel it gives me more maneuverability and makes switching easier.

 

[cim]

McIceGar is dead. Really. It's designed to kill Blissey and no longer does with all the Calm Minders, Boltbeamings, and stuff (which you already said so). Focus Blast hits often enough anyway, plus you don't need two turns to run it like Subpunch.

Runing McIceGar as a Blissey counter I always compared to running Nosepass as a Skarmory counter. They are both great counters for what they're meant to counter (Skarmbliss and Skarmory, respectively), but aren't too useful other than for countering, McGar since Focus Punch is all prediction and Nosepass since it is Nosepass.

 

[leafgreen386]

Maybe that's because ADV and DP have different damage forumlas......

Every time I've tested it, the DP damage formula has either done the same or slightly less.

While an interesting and effective set, this will only work once against Blissey as she won't switch in a second time once they find out it has Focus Punch. Then Gengar has to switch in on her and Hypnosis before it can Focus Punch.

Well, then... good. If bliss isn't switching into gar, that means something else has to take the hit for it. I don't see the problem here.

 

[cim]

Every time I've tested it, the DP damage formula has either done the same or slightly less.


Well, then... good. If bliss isn't switching into gar, that means something else has to take the hit for it. I don't see the problem here.

The problem is people can just switch to a Fighting resist or a physical wall. Keep in mind Blissey isn't Gengar's only counter.

 

[leafgreen386]

Are you stupid? If the foe is too scared to send in blissey, why would you be focus punching in the first place? You use one of your other three moves, and that is what something else is taking instead of bliss.

 

[husk]

GENGAR @ Life Orb ** Mardigar
Lonely
252 Attack, 176 Speed, 82 - Enough for 300 Speed. Could have more for Adamant Chomp / base 95's, but whatever.

~Hypnosis
~Focus Punch
~Thunderbolt
~Shadow Ball

This was both of our ideas. It's designed to be able to hit more things with Focus Punch, such as T-Tar harder. Life Orb + Sub is real bad so Hypnosis goes there, and Shadow Ball gets that extra kick.

Why would you max attack? You can 2hko bliss with no attack and a neutral nature...max SpAtk shadow ball with LO is so devastating I'm not sure why you would give that up especially when the pokemon that absorbs them the best is afraid to come in because you'll 2hko it.