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The Next Best Thing - Croagunk

Discussion in 'BW LC' started by dcae, Apr 21, 2013.

  1. dcae

    dcae naughty list

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    Approved by blarajan;
    credit to Fatty for the OP



    [​IMG]
    The Next Best Thing...
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]


    What is this?:

    I'm pretty sure all of us LCers feel as though there is some untapped power within the LC environment. There is substantial evidence for this idea in the form of one commonality for most tiers, LC included: there always seems to be one or more new-fangled, hyped up sets that weren't originally main-stay or seen as "viable" by the community, but somehow has taken the metagame by storm. This can be seen in DPP OU (with Special Lucario transitioning to SD Lucario, Heatran eventually running items other than Choice Scarf, and the influx of ChestoRest Kingdra) in ADV (with the vaunted TyraniBoah now becoming almost an urban myth in comparison to Special and DD Tyranitar, and the increasing popularity of SupeRachi) and in BW OU (with the advent of SubSalac Terrakion, SubDisable Gengar, and ChestoRest Volcarona). Yes, some of these sets may have been found early on with respect to the creation of the tier or fairly recently, the point is, though, that there seems to be an endless supply of effective and potent sets out there yet to be discovered, especially factoring in metagame swings and the possible tier shifts. The purpose of this project will be to systematically subject each and every LC pokemon to a collective body of research in an attempt to uncover these "hidden gems", so to speak, and hopefully spark some creativity throughout the LC community, which many argue is very lacking of variety.

    The Process:

    Each week, I will choose a different LC Pokemon, sometimes chosen by random, sometimes chosen by curiousity, of which participants will try to personally create a new set for that is not already on-site or in the process of being put on-site. Participants will be given 3 days to create their set, with discussion about the particular sets being promoted throughout, and on the 6th and 7th day of the week, a vote will be held to choose which user's set represented the most creative and simultaneously competivitely viable set to utilize in the current LC metagame. Once the votes are tallied and a winner is crowned, the set will be archived in the OP and the process will start all over again for the next pokemon specimen.

    What are we looking for?:

    Specifically, I want to stress the importance of the balance between creativity and viability when picking a set to post for the Pokemon in question. There's a very fine line between a "creative" set and a "gimmick", and this project is not meant to produce gimmicks, rather emphasize the ability to think outside the box when using a specific Pokemon in order to maximize it's potential. Having said that, I would also like to deviate from simple one move / item changes. For example, using Life Orb over Eviolite does nothing to show any untapped potential DD Scraggy has because we already have a basic understanding of what DD Scraggy is and does, it's just now better at dealing damage . The same goes for using Payback over Knock Off on Mienfoo, it doesn't yield productive discussion or results for the project. I am looking for sets that test what we think we know about checks or counters, so-called standards, and what it means to be viable. Maybe a particular option for a Pokemon looks inferior at first glance for that particular pokemon, but dig deeper and try and find what it might mean in the big picture, for the entire team.


    The next test subject is...​

    [​IMG]
    Chinchou




    Things to consider:

    • What is thought to "counter" this pokemon?
    • Is there anyway to bypass this pokemon's so-called "counters?
    • What moves are seldom used on this pokemon, but have the most upside?
    • What niches can this pokemon potentially fill in the current metagame?
    • What opposing pokemon does this pokemon do well against?
    • How can this pokemon benefit it's teammates?
  2. dcae

    dcae naughty list

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    Archive Reserve



    [​IMG]Mienfoo - Sarkynin
    Show Hide

    Mienfoo @ Life Orb
    Trait: Regenerator
    Level: 5
    Shiny: Yes
    EVs: 236 Atk / 36 Def / 236 Spd
    Jolly Nature
    - Substitute
    - Payback
    - Hi Jump Kick
    - Baton Pass

    236 Atk Life Orb Mienfoo Payback (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 21-26 (95.45 - 118.18%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO
    236 Atk Life Orb Mienfoo Payback (100 BP) vs. 36 HP / 120 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 16-21 (69.56 - 91.3%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    Mienfoo easily scares out a lot of opponents, such as Porygon, Lileep, Lickitung or Magnemite. He can easily abuse this with substitute, allowing it to then pass it to a teammate or launch a powerful Hi Jump Kick. Meanwhile, if a Misdreavus switch-in, he just has to use payback to see the little ghost teared apart by the move while it only managed to destroy the substitute with shadow ball... And he only lost 35% of its HP by doing so, which are easily recovered by Regenerator! This foo works best in a voltturn core, since he's a bit frail on its own to switch in things, and he maintains momentum too with baton pass, even if it doesn't inflict damage.
  3. Kenny

    Kenny don't expect me

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    [​IMG]
    Mienfoo @ Eviolite
    Trait: Regenerator
    Level: 5
    EVs: 156 HP / 76 Atk / 196 Def / 76 Spd
    Impish Nature
    - Baton Pass
    - Swords Dance
    - Drain Punch
    - Substitute

    Mienfoo, being able to run both defensive and offensive sets, can use a variant of the defensive set: Baton Pass. Mienfoo can be a very reliable Baton Passer, and can even Baton Pass multiple times due to recovery ability it Drain Punch and Regenerator. This basically allows you to get free Substitutes up, allowing for easier Baton Passing. It can also set up a sub when the opponent would expect a strong move, and switch out. It may not be the best, but it's the next best!
  4. The Unlucky one

    The Unlucky one

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    Mienfoo @ Eviolite
    Trait: Regenerator
    Level: 5
    EVs: 156 HP / 76 Atk / 196 Def / 76 Spd
    Impish Nature
    - Drain Punch
    - Knock Off
    - U-turn
    - Reflect

    I heard this from a few people before and took a shot at it. It's not really completely unheard of but still hasn't received the light of day yet. With Reflect, Knock Off, Drain Punch, and Regenerator. Mienfoo can outlast any physical attacker 1v1 and a few of them on the switch in. It is just a slight spin on the standard Bulky Mienfoo which a lot of people know at this point. But Reflect allows it to outlast some physical attackers it usually can't such as the ability to defeat Timburr with a bit of prior damage. Reflect+U-Turn is also amazing as you can use that refelct for another teammate to abuse (I tend to use it with Tirtouga, they both hate Foongus though) and go for a sweep from there. Overall Reflect Mienfoo is something that more people should start to use even though some of the more experienced LCers kinda know about it.

    @below lol
  5. ebeast

    ebeast she's probably sexting nprtprt
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    [​IMG]
    Mienfoo (M) @ Eviolite
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 156 HP / 76 Atk / 196 Def / 36 SpD
    Impish Nature (+Def, -SpA)
    - Reflect
    - Drain Punch
    - U-turn
    - Knock Off

    Reflect looks like a weird move on Mienfoo, but between Reflect, Knock Off, and Drain Punch, Mienfoo has an easy time disposing of physical attackers. Reflect cuts the damage Mienfoo takes from physical attacks by half, Knock Off removes Eviolites to allow Mienfoo to hit back harder, and Drain Punch is a decent powered STAB that heals Mienfoo. Any damage sustained from this is also easily healed thanks to Regenerator. Mienfoo loses no utility while using this set as it can still U-turn to scout or Knock Off an incoming Pokemon's Eviolite.

    EDIT: ninja'd asjndqwndasmdod,mwio
    I guess i was the unlucky one...
    TROP likes this.
  6. ABfloww

    ABfloww

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    [​IMG]

    Mienfoo @ Eviolite
    Trait: Regenerator
    Level: 5
    EVs: 156 HP / 76 Atk / 196 Def / 76 Spd
    Impish Nature (+def, - SpA)
    - Drain Punch
    - Stone Edge
    - U-turn
    - Taunt

    Common counters to Mienfoo are pokemon such as Foongus, Shroomish, Slowpoke, Missy, etc. With this set, the aim is to basically to use taunt, basically forcing that pokemon to use a move such as Giga drain, shadow ball, etc, so that you can get a free switch into a set up sweeper, and potentially set up to sweep. this could include any shell smashing pokemon like Tirtouga, Clamperl, Omanyte or Scraggy to get that free Dragon Dance.
    Stone Edge is the preferred move over knock off, just as a move to hit flying types for super effective damage. U- turn also gives you momentum which is very nice going into a counter for the pokemon that the opponent might send in while dishing out some damage.

    -idea suggested/ improved by the unlucky one
  7. Sashay

    Sashay From The Ashes
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    [​IMG]

    Mienfoo @ Eviolite
    Trait: Regenerator
    Level: 5
    EVs: 156 HP / 76 Def / 76 Spd / 196 Spe
    Impish Nature
    - Baton Pass
    - Calm Mind
    - Payback
    - Substitute

    This set is for those unsuspecting players expecting the routine Fake Out/Knock Off/U-turn-out combination every time they see Mienfoo, so they switch in their Misdreavus to take the Fake Out, or they switch in their least valuable Pokemon on the team to take the Knock Off, whatever the player considers is the lowest risk, which is often not something that poses a huge threat to Mienfoo, as they don't want their star Pokemon losing their Eviolite or Scarf. Sub or Calm Mind on the switch as they expect the Fake Out/Knock Off, and set up. Payback is there to scare Misdreavus enough to keep it from setting up while you set up, as it's a clean 2HKO with Eviolite. Prediction is very necessary to pull this off, and be frugal with revealing your moves too early because once the opponent realizes you don't have a Fighting attack, they will send out Scraggy to set up on you without fear. Also beware of Brave Bird users such as Murkrow and Doduo.

    If done correctly, you can pass Calm Mind boosts and maybe even a Sub to a Special Shell Smash user with high Defense, such as Clamperl or Shellder, and sweep very easily. Clamperl may not need to Smash after being passed the boosts in order to devastate the opponent's team, though Shell Smash will help you outspeed its counters. Give it a try! I hope my input is helpful or at least thought-provoking! ^_^
  8. apt-get

    apt-get I'll treasure that moment as I smiled, when I wasn't alone
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    Things to consider:

    • What is thought to "counter" this pokemon? The best counter is generally thought to be Misdreavus and various ghost-types.
    • Is there anyway to bypass this pokemon's so-called "counters? Mienfoo has a niche move in its movepool, payback. While it doesn't activate anymore if they switch-in, you can still use it to your advantage with a move that blocks the opponent's attack, if you know what I mean.
    • What moves are seldom used on this pokemon, but have the most upside? Payback, Substitute and Baton Pass are almost never used on Mienfoo; however, with regenerator and its good speed, it's actually a nice subpasser.
    • What niches can this pokemon potentially fill in the current metagame? Beat its primary counter, Misdreavus, semi-reliably or weaken it to the point it'll be KOed later easily by a teammate.
    • What opposing pokemon does this pokemon do well against? Ghost-types and most walls are easily beaten.
    • How can this pokemon benefit it's teammates? It can easily pass them a substitute for them to setup or have free attacks; but its biggest niche is to eliminate the Ghost-types that often annoy double fighting-cores.
    [​IMG]
    #REKT (Mienfoo) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Regenerator
    Level: 5
    Shiny: Yes
    EVs: 236 Atk / 36 Def / 236 Spd
    Jolly Nature
    - Substitute
    - Payback
    - Hi Jump Kick
    - Baton Pass

    236 Atk Life Orb Mienfoo Payback (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 21-26 (95.45 - 118.18%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO
    236 Atk Life Orb Mienfoo Payback (100 BP) vs. 36 HP / 120 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 16-21 (69.56 - 91.3%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    Mienfoo easily scares out a lot of opponents, such as Porygon, Lileep, Lickitung or Magnemite. He can easily abuse this with substitute, allowing it to then pass it to a teammate or launch a powerful Hi Jump Kick. Meanwhile, if a Misdreavus switch-in, he just has to use payback to see the little ghost teared apart by the move while it only managed to destroy the substitute with shadow ball... And he only lost 35% of its HP by doing so, which are easily recovered by Regenerator! This foo works best in a voltturn core, since he's a bit frail on its own to switch in things, and he maintains momentum too with baton pass, even if it doesn't inflict damage.

    edit - i think reflectfoo will win this one, it's just so good
  9. Rowan

    Rowan not a professor
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    Mienfoo @ Eviolite
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 156 HP / 76 Atk / 196 Def / 76 Spd
    Impish Nature (+def, - SpA)
    - Low Sweep
    - Hi-Jump Kick
    - U-turn
    - Knock Off / Fake Out

    Probably not the best, but I can't think of anything else that hasn't already been said. Basically, it can beat Murkrow on the switch in, by Low Sweeping it so it outspeeds and KOs with HJK. But yeah, Murkrow's the only real thing that it couldn't beat but now so it's not really the best.


    I'm putting support behind Swords Dance+Substitute+Baton Pass as it's an incredible thing to set up a Scraggy sweep when Misdreavus switches in with SD or set up a Tirtouga sweep as Larvesta switches in with Sub. Reflect and Taunt are also pretty decent but Baton Pass is really good. I don't know why it doesn't have an analysis anymore. :(

    also, inb4 chieliee mentions HP Psychic...
  10. Artemisa

    Artemisa

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    Mienfoo (M) @ Eviolite
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 76 Atk / 196 Def / 236 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Hi Jump Kick
    - Taunt
    - U-turn
    - Knock Off

    This is the version of Taunting Mienfoo I've been using for a long while. It's the same thing ABfloww said except I run it with max speed because I like outspeed Dwebble, and tie with Drilbur so I can prevent any hazards. Knock off is preffered over Fake Out because the niche of Mienfoo is to support your team by knocking off eviolites making the opposing pokemon weaker. SE is more of a sweeper move that's best paired up with LO imo.


    Things to consider:

    • What is thought to "counter" this pokemon? I believe Mienfoo has no counter unless it is the last pokemon alive in the battle. You can say Missy and ghost switch in, but Mienfoo can just easily take a shadow ball and just u-turn out. It can do this with all the ghost "counters" especially with Taunt Mienfoo.
    • Is there anyway to bypass this pokemon's so-called "counters? U-turn is the way Mienfoo bypasses it's counters and creates momentum also Taunt can stop missy and you can u-turn to a check or trapper.
    • What moves are seldom used on this pokemon, but have the most upside? Taunt is the main move I use in this set. It stops so many walls from statusing my team.
    • What niches can this pokemon potentially fill in the current metagame? Mienfoo has the ability to support teams. Stop hazard setters and pivots from statusing your team mainly.
    • What opposing pokemon does this pokemon do well against? Basically any pokemon bar Murkrow (and any other fast birds) and Abra (and any other fast psychic types).
    • How can this pokemon benefit it's teammates? Knocking off eviolites and creating momentum with Taunt + U-turn, helping pokemon set up etc.


    Messed up hardcore on this post. Hope I cleared it up.
  11. Nozzle

    Nozzle

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    Just wanting to point out that Ebeast and The Unlucky One's sets are basically the except the former has 36 SpD and the latter has 76 Spe EV's. I see that they are posted at bassicaly the same time but should we do anything about it?

    Edit: lol nvm
  12. Leafshield

    Leafshield

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    I think the first person to post the set should be considered the originator of the set by these means. The sets are nearly identical and I'm not sure if the difference in EVs is enough to justify the two sets being voted upon separately (not implying that they should be voted upon together, but to just choose one or the other according to what the people think about the EVs.)

    Of course this is the opinion barked from a grain of salt, so the community would have to decide for themselves.
  13. dcae

    dcae naughty list

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  14. mikel

    mikel @ air baloon
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    Sarkynin

    excellent set, letting you lure and very often KO murkrow and misdreavus, the two biggest threats in the metagame.
  15. The Unlucky one

    The Unlucky one

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    Am I allowed to say Ebeast? If not, I pick Sarkynin
  16. ebeast

    ebeast she's probably sexting nprtprt
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    Feranfell
    TROP likes this.
  17. Molk

    Molk Crustle knocked off the opposing Rhydon's Assault Vest!
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  18. TROP

    TROP *tips fedora*
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  19. Electrolyte

    Electrolyte Fastest man alive
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    Ugh, I'm really torn between Sark's SubPass Foo and EBeasts's Screens+U-Turn. On paper, both look as if they're completely viable and have a niche in the metagame. However, I think I'm going to have to go with Sarkynin's SubPass Foo.

    Both Foo sets try to mix in offensive and support for Mienfoo- but the SubPass set aims at Foo'd offensive checks and Reflect aims to defeat Mienfoo's defensive checks and counters. This difference in offense / defense is what makes the SubPass set all the more effective, because it helps its team but also excels at taking down opposing threats rather than defensive walls. SubPass is more suited for Foo, in my opinion, because it not only lets Foo pass and help a teammate, but it also provides Foo with the ability to support without sacrificing any of its offensive capabilities. SubFoo hits like a truck and effectively removes Flying and Ghost types, most of which are fast+frail. It can still function like a regular Mienfoo in terms of damage. Plus, it has Sub and Baton Pass, which can also support its team just as much as Reflect can. For instance, against a Foongus, you could Subup against the Spore and then pass to a teammate that resists Grass so they can set up. Reflect is also great but the set can not afford to carry the offensive power SubPass does. Plus, Reflect is very situational; it only applies when handling physical walls, which the Sub set can do quite well too. The SubPass set jist seems as if it's more geared towards the common balanced / offensive team, which makes it more solid than the bulky / offensive Reflect set.

    Why only SubPass and not SubSDPass? SubSD pass is geared entirely around support, as with only one STAB move, even a boosted Foo is not much of an offensive threat. SD+Sub Pass is simply trying to cover too much at once- it's sacrificing coverage and power for the sake of a bit more support that's hard to successfully set up.

    Reflect and LO SubPass are both great sets, but I think SubPass is a bit better in terms of support and offense. Just my two cents.
  20. ABfloww

    ABfloww

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    i vote for Sarkynin's set. Really is quite an intelligent one. it was used against me twice and it really is clever,taking out especially misdreavus a major threat and usually the first preffered switch in to mienfoo.
  21. McRider

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  22. apt-get

    apt-get I'll treasure that moment as I smiled, when I wasn't alone
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    EBeast, since it's one of the foo sets that I like the most. Reflect really helps countering a lot of physical threats and drain punch+regenerator keeps it healthy through the battle.
  23. Mylo Xyloto

    Mylo Xyloto

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  24. wiitle

    wiitle Daughter of a back-alley doctor
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    Ebeast
    I have actually used reflectfoo quite a bit over the last 2 months and I have began to prefer it over the standard fake out foo. It is a very useful set and it even helps Mienfoo a lot with Murkrow.
  25. Rowan

    Rowan not a professor
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    Feranfell

    I just love the ability to either pass Swords Dance or Substitute from Mienfoo, both work really well with the right team mates.

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