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Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by PK Gaming, Oct 17, 2012.

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  1. Vemane

    Vemane

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    Deoxys D is dominant? When is the last time you stepped onto the ladder? And it most certainly provides far more support thatn deoxys. Infinite sand+Getting rid of other weathers >>>>>> than a layer of rocks and one of spikes (maybe).

    Tyrannitar's merits as a pokemon are supplementary to the sand it provides; it is most certainly a better poke than poli or ninetalrs, while still providing similar support.

    And as mentioned, it serves as a nice way to deal with other whethers, simply by chaanging them. It can double sandslash+stoutland's speed, it can make lando extremely strong, and it can provide a very nice bulk boost to pokes like terrakion (ie... Gene ( in that meta) could no longer ko, it can now take dcalds, etc) plus the residual damage
  2. masterful

    masterful

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    Deo-D is almost assured SR and at least 1 layer of spikes, while Ttar can only put up SR/Pursuit trap as his team support. He is going to die before the opponent's Politoed, if not because of Dugtrio, because of the fact that he's weak to eeeeeverything that a rain team has. Torn-T can OHKO him, Toed can OHKO him, Keldeo can OHKO him, Dugtrio can OHKO him, Thundurus-T can probably OHKO him. These are the pokes that are running the meta, and he can't stand up to them! Tyranitar for S-rank is out-of-this-world dumb.
  3. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

    Joined:
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    1. Chople Berry makes it so Torn-T can't OHKO him; which also means Thundy-T can't as well.
    2. Choice Banded TTar can OHKO Choice Scarf Politoed's locked into Ice Beam (or Surf; pursuit as they switch), and also destroy both switching Ninetales and pursuit fucks sleeping Torn-T (Breloom is an amazin partner for this). Torn-T can't switch into Banded Stone Edge as well, making it a... check?
    3. Pursuit support is amazing since it eliminates the Lati twins (making its support amazing for Pokemon like Terrakion or Keldeo who don't necessarily like Latias's ability to wall their fighting STABs. )
    4. It's ability to break through stall walls with Band (SE 2hkos both Chansey and Skarm) is something Hippo could never brag without lolSand Force.
    5. It's ability to run a Scarf is something that Hippo can't brag (as it can check non-scarf'd Keldy and Rak).

    Just putting these things out there that it isn't complete dead weight vs. Rain. The Band'd Tyranitar's pratically kill everything rain has to offer if it gets a free switch (Superpower takes Ferro / Crunch 2HKOs anything that can't resist / Pursuit traps things that are problematic like sleeping Torn-T or possibly Politoed).

    Also, I don't get your point because everything that you mentioned also harms / effects Hippo. Torn-T 2HKOs Hippo after Rocks (I think this even applies to the SDef variant but I'm too lazy to calc so that's up for grabs), so it can KO / HP Ice from Thundy-T 2HKOs (especially if it gets +2 from Nasty Plot) / Specs Toed's Hydro Pump OHKOs (at least Banded Tar outspeeds) / Keldeo can OHKO him. The only exception is Dugtrio, which is a very slight difference considering most rain doesn't run him.

    tl;tr: TTar has more merits than your giving credit for. I'm still on and off about the S Tier thing, I think it certainly has a chance for S rank. Looking forward to more discussion on that.


    EDIT:

    @ Lord of Bays:

    Nice catch. I updated my post.
  4. Lord of Bays

    Lord of Bays

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    I'm sorry, Scarf Tyranitar outspeeds Dugtrio? Scarf Tyranitar outspeeds base 115s, not 120s.
  5. masterful

    masterful

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    1) Chople Ttar also loses out on being actually threatening, and still gets OHKOd through Chople after some U-turn/Volt Switch + hazards damage.
    2)I'm not comparing Ttar against Hippo, I'm comparing him to a hypothetical S-rank pokemon. If someone locks themseleves into Ice beam vs a Choice Band Ttar, that player messed up. That has nothing to do with Ttar being S-rank. I'm just saying that it can't safely switch into any of these things. I didn't say Tornadus-T checks Ttar, I'm not retarded, and who in god's name switches Ninetales in on Ttar? If you assume your opponent is always terrible, then yes, Ttar is very good.
    3) Pursuit is good for trapping, I already agreed to that. Does it make Ttar S-rank? No.
    4) Sooooo, being a slower version of Band Terrakion with worse coverage is the argument for Ttar being S-rank? If that's not true, feel free to correct me, but having a Choice band makes a lot of pokes good wallbreakers, and does not in any way make ttar special, especially when it has so few chances to come in and fire off a free attack since Band Ttar is killed by pretty much all the pokes I listed before.
    5) Once again, not saying it's worse than Hippo, just that it's worse than S-rank. Also, Scarf Tyranitar is not even close to being good enough to qualify as a set worthy of pushing a poke into the S tier.

    Ttar has merits, I'm not denying it, but in this meta, he's just not nearly as good as he used to be, and definitely not S rank by any definition.
  6. Vemane

    Vemane

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    What do you mean he can only put up stealth rock or pursuit trap?

    Do you not realize he has SAND STREAM???

    The thing that MAKES him a top-tier OU threat.

    If you /cough/ read any of my posts, you would realize I was not arguing tyrannitar itself as s-tier, I was arguing his ability to summon sandstorm.

    Which is FAR more valuable than deoxys' job (who is quite easy to 2hko before it sets up any spikes, and is easily replacable in many teams)

    So get over tyrannitar itself and look rather at its ability: sandstream, as well as the fact that tyrannitar isn't a bad pokemon in itself (as opposed to some of the other weather starters).
  7. zpattack12

    zpattack12

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2012
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    I think the difference is the benefits that rain brings to a team is the big factor. Sand does not do much compared to Rain, which makes Politoed a better supporter.
  8. RabidChipmunk

    RabidChipmunk

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    Jul 18, 2012
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    Sand Stream is what makes Tyranitar A-tier; Unnerve Tyranitar is completely useless. All Sand Stream does is make Rock-type Pokemon specially hardier (hit them with one of the tiers many, many Fighting attacks and they'll still crumble), increase the damage done by Pokemon with Sand Force (i.e. Landorus), speed up Pokemon with Sand Rush (i.e. Stoutland and LOL Sandslash), and cancel out Leftovers recovery. Compared to things like Rain and even Sun, Sand is relatively limited in options.
  9. Vemane

    Vemane

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    Speaking of which, moving away from tyrannitar for the time being as you are correct in that, at least in this meta, sand is less potent than rain and sun, I would like to nominate Sandslash for b-tier.

    In my opinion, sandslash is a VERY solid b-tier pokemon, and here is why:

    I find that sandslash fits this role, and even beyond.


    [​IMG]
    -Sandslash is quite the potent sweeper, along the lines of a mini-excadrill, in sand.
    -It does not hit as hard as excadrill, but is able to cause quite a large bit of damage (as will be displayed later)
    -It has above average physical bulk, allowing it to take priority attacks decently
    -It is able to attain perfect coverage with a moveset of earthquake, stone edge, and x-scissor.
    -It has 1 greater speed than a nuetral +1 base 100 pokemon when Adamant, meaning that it sits at an extremely nice immediate speed tier, though it is not as difficult to revenge as excadrill
    -Sandslash can run rapid spin, freeing up a slot for another pokemon while being able to beat almost all spinblockers

    [​IMG]
    Sandslash @ Life Orb
    Trait: Sand Rush
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Swords Dance
    - Stone Edge
    - Earthquake
    - X-Scissor

    Sandslash is immediately powerful, and immediately lighting fast with this set, capable of denting many things and able to force many switches to setup.

    Calcs:
    Show Hide

    252 +2 Atk Life Orb Sandslash (+Atk) Earthquake vs 252 HP/252 Def Politoed (+Def) : 87.5% - 102.6% 1hko with rocks

    252 Atk Life Orb Sandslash (+Atk) Earthquake vs 4 HP/0 Def Politoed: 76.71% - 90.68% 25% chance to 1hko with 1 switch into rocks

    252 +2 Atk Life Orb Sandslash (+Atk) Earthquake vs 252 HP/4 Def Ferrothorn: 87.22% - 102.56% 62% chance to 1hko with 1 switch into rocks

    252 +2 Atk Life Orb Sandslash (+Atk) Earthquake vs 252 HP/252 Def Ferrothorn (+Def) : 65.62% - 77.56% Very clean 2hko, 1hko with 30% prior damage

    252 +2 Atk Life Orb Sandslash (+Atk) Earthquake vs 0 HP/0 Def Garchomp: 113.76% - 123.13% 1hko

    252 +2 Atk Life Orb Sandslash (+Atk) Earthquake vs 0 HP/0 Def Breloom: 89.66% - 105.36% 75% chance to 1hko with rocks

    252 +2 Atk Life Orb Sandslash (+Atk) Stone Edge vs 252 HP/0 Def Rotom-W: 80.59% - 94.74% 50% chance to 1hko after rocks


    These just showcase sandslash's strength against a few threats. Give it some hazards support and the opponent will be hard pressed to find anything to deal with it midgame!
  10. RabidChipmunk

    RabidChipmunk

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    My problem lies in that bolded section: outspeeds +1 base 100's. Ordinarily that'd be pretty awesome, but base 100 speed just isn't what it used to be anymore. As far as I'm concerned, if you rely on speed to sweep but can't outspeed +1 base 108's, I don't really have time for you. Keldeo and that Lati twins will easily kill you, either after you score a kill yourself, or as you try and Swords Dance to get a sweep going.

    I really like Sandslash, to be honest, but I don't think he has the moxie to be a threat in any way in this metagame, even if those calcs are pretty impressive. He can Rapid Spin, so I guess that's pretty cool for making him a sort of poor man's Sand team Starmie, but I see little use for him outside of that.
  11. Vemane

    Vemane

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    Which is why I support his movement to b tier

    Alongside the likes of other "slow" threats like jolteon and stoutland (he definitely deserves the same as stout if anything), and zapdos, and toxicroak

    He has a niche and he packs a punch. And requiring only sand support and the elimination of a possible scarfer is not all that much support to ask of a pokemon who can run through teams

    He can't quite make it in a-tier, but he is certainly on the same level as many b-tier pokemon
  12. Vemane

    Vemane

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2010
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    398
    I'm not examining him as a spinner, though, moreso as a sweeper. Sandslash's immediate speed and power under sand are almost unmatched, and completely so in b-tier.

    I feel as if the sand support rather places him under "can properly fill an offensive niche" of b-tier, or even "can sweep significant something or whatever" of the a-tier (though his other flaws, most notably his speed and complete reliance on sand hold him back from a).

    As the calcs I posted previously showed, he is extremely powerful offensively, and his base 100 attack is misleading because of his ability to run adamant without any drawbacks really.

    Against offensive teams, he can often 1hko the lot.

    Otherwise, he can 2hko gliscor and skarm at +2, allowing him to destroy even defensively oriented teams.

    The only thing preventing him from sweeping often is other weather, though pairing him with Gothitelle or Dugtrio or running Dual Sand can mitigate this. Or even allowing the weather starter to switch in, only to be 1hkod by earthquake (no matter what occurs, sandslash is normally able to take out at least 2 pokemon)

    Priority is hard pressed to stop him due to his nice physical bulk, giving him further grounds against offensive teams.

    Also, here are calcs against virtually everything in ou. There are no rocks involved (so if rocks are up, things like dragonite are 1hkod):
    Show Hide

    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 39.65 - 46.89% (balloon)
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 43.82 - 51.54% (balloon)
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 44.61 - 52.99%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 47.45 - 55.93%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 24+ Def Gliscor: 54.1 - 63.73%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Skarmory: 58.08 - 68.56%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 244+ Def Hippowdon: 59.76 - 70.47%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 236 HP / 216 Def Breloom: 61.25 - 72.18%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Donphan: 64.32 - 76.04%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 64 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 65.28 - 77.2%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Forretress: 65.25 - 77.4%
    +1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 66.77 - 78.68%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 69.68 - 82.12%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 69.94 - 82.38%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4+ Def Hippowdon: 72.61 - 85.71%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 73.15 - 86.07%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gliscor: 73.19 - 86.59%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 74.14 - 87.5%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 76.23 - 89.81%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 76.47 - 90.09%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 78.12 - 91.87%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Deoxys-D: 79.6 - 94.07%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 80.52 - 95.37%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 228 HP / 0 Def Hippowdon: 81.4 - 96.13%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Forretress: 81.63 - 96.32%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 82.5 - 97.19%
    +1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gyarados: 82.48 - 97.71%
    +1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Gyarados: 82.69 - 97.96%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 83.33 - 98.14%
    +1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Salamence: 83.24 - 98.22%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 83.59 - 98.45%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 176+ Def Cloyster: 83.16 - 98.67%

    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 84.66 - 100%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 184 HP / 4 Def Rotom-W: 84.66 - 100%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Donphan: 86.19 - 101.82%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Politoed: 87.23 - 102.86%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Ferrothorn: 87.74 - 103.41%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 88.08 - 103.76%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 88.71 - 104.7%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 88.71 - 104.7%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 88.71 - 104.7%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Jellicent: 90.07 - 105.7%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 228+ Def Latias: 89.28 - 105.76%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 192 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur: 90.54 - 106.59%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Deoxys-D: 90.78 - 106.9%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Multiscale Dragonite: 93.49 - 109.9%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 12 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 94.69 - 111.36%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 244 HP / 136+ Def Vaporeon: 94.8 - 111.68%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 98.06 - 115.21%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 100.82 - 119.42%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 128 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 106 - 124.54%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 106.56 - 125.19%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 48 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-D: 109.09 - 128.45%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 212 Def Vaporeon: 109.22 - 128.67%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gyarados: 110.15 - 129.94%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Gyarados: 110.43 - 130.27%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Salamence: 110.91 - 130.71%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 111.69 - 132.16%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 112.5 - 133.13%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 112.82 - 133.52%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 117.94 - 138.95%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 192 HP / 64 Def Reuniclus: 118.82 - 139.85%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 36 Def Jellicent: 122.52 - 144.05%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Latias: 124.17 - 146.42%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Latias: 125 - 147.25%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gastrodon: 124.88 - 147.41%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 160 HP / 36 Def Gastrodon: 125.8 - 148.13%
    +1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 176 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 126.13 - 149.06%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Politoed: 128.38 - 151.3%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mamoswine: 128.53 - 151.52%
    +1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 88 Def Gyarados: 128.7 - 151.66%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mamoswine: 129.28 - 152.2%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cloyster: 128.21 - 152.28%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 64 Def Dragonite: 130.56 - 154.14%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 131.57 - 154.79%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 152 HP / 0 Def Latias: 134.21 - 158.11%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Jellicent: 135.41 - 159.89%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Latios: 136.53 - 160.71%
    +1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 137.1 - 162.02%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 137.72 - 162.98%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 172 Def Abomasnow: 138.8 - 163.8%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Dragonite: 139.37 - 164.24%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 139.57 - 164.41%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 140.15 - 165.02%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 140.72 - 165.56%
    +1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 141.38 - 166.46%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 224+ Def Jirachi: 141.58 - 166.58%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Genesect: 143.46 - 168.55%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 144.55 - 170.06%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 145.98 - 172.53%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 149.23 - 175.95%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Venusaur: 149.66 - 176.82%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latias: 150.66 - 177.48%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Celebi: 151.98 - 178.96%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Politoed: 153.1 - 180.43%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 4 HP / 0- Def Hydreigon: 154.6 - 182.51%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 165.23 - 194.7%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 166.97 - 196.6%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 167.49 - 197.21%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 176 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 168.53 - 198.13%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Venusaur: 168.77 - 199.66%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 96+ Def Celebi: 169.8 - 200.74%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 170.05 - 201.37%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 88 Def Gyarados: 171.29 - 201.81%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 177.47 - 209.15%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 188 HP / 0 Def Abomasnow: 178.8 - 210.59%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Abomasnow: 180.76 - 212.91%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 180.53 - 213.35%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 181.22 - 214.17%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 164 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 180.99 - 214.32%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 183.18 - 215.36%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Espeon: 185.92 - 219.46%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Dragonite: 186.68 - 219.81%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Espeon: 187.72 - 220.95%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ninetales: 188 - 221.42%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 188.51 - 222.35%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 156 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 188.68 - 222.36%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 189.42 - 222.96%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 191.83 - 226.48%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 236+ Def Tentacruel: 204.12 - 240.65%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 204.7 - 241.83%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 204.96 - 242.71%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 205.64 - 243.52%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tornadus-T: 207.02 - 244.14%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 207.26 - 244.86%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 208.69 - 246.15%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 220 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 208.83 - 246.71%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 209.64 - 247.07%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 214.68 - 253.46%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 176 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 214.8 - 253.76%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 240 Def Tentacruel: 222.8 - 262.08%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 226.6 - 267.54%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Abomasnow: 227.41 - 267.91%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 227.27 - 268.32%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Magikarp: 230.21 - 270.87%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Thundurus-T: 231.33 - 273%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 241.81 - 285.67%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Terrakion: 260.68 - 307.43%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 262.34 - 308.95%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 263.15 - 309.9%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 240 HP / 216+ Def Volcarona: 271.96 - 321.02%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ninetales: 281.42 - 332%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 244 HP / 12 Def Toxicroak: 294.56 - 347.55%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Toxicroak: 299.45 - 352.44%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 32 Def Dugtrio: 301.42 - 354.97%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash X-Scissor vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Alakazam: 307.53 - 361.9%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 136 HP / 0 Def Ninetales: 306.85 - 361.99%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dugtrio: 316.98 - 374.05%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ninetales: 343.2 - 404.87%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Magikarp: 345.05 - 405.49%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Infernape: 350 - 411.9%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Infernape: 351.19 - 413.31%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Toxicroak: 357.79 - 421.1%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tentacruel: 368.56 - 433.77%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 368.79 - 435.1%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 96 Def Magnezone: 368.89 - 435.17%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 384.93 - 453.76%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 385.93 - 454.94%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Infernape: 391.12 - 460.4%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 160 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 419.08 - 493.16%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Jolteon: 429.88 - 506.64%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jolteon: 432.47 - 510.33%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 148 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 433.33 - 511.63%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 457.4 - 539.19%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 458.82 - 540.86%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Volcarona: 469.77 - 553.37%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 472.99 - 556.59%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 475.17 - 561.03%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 488.65 - 576.95%
  13. Gehenna

    Gehenna

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2010
    Messages:
    208
    I always felt that Sandslash was outclassed by Stoutland if it wasn't spinning, idk maybe the STAB on EQ makes up for it.
  14. Vemane

    Vemane

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2010
    Messages:
    398
    The calcs were not arguing solely for its placement in a higher tier (as displayed by magnezone and terrakion, etc.)

    They serve to show what sandslash beats, as well as what beats it (thus not glorifying it).


    In the case of #11, scarf landorus t. ;)

    For #18, I believe sandslash outspeeds both of them. (it just misses out on the terrakion bunch and up if im not mistaken in terms of legitimate threats)

    #19- in some cases, it comes down to change the weather now and lose the weather war or get swept completely, in which case ninetales could switch in and have something else now revenge kill. The rest serve to show his ability (although obvious) to get past threats to sand like celebi et al.

    I feel him and lando do different jobs, though. Lando is best at either a) sheer force sweeping or b) scarf spamming earthquake and functioning as a revenge killer as opposed to an all out sweeper

    And in the senses that lando does outclass him, that would be why he is in A rank and slash would be in B. He is not totally outclassed by lando by any means, only in a specific role (ie. immediate power eq spam)



    Stoutland and sandslash are completely different.

    Stout cleans up (IF every steel... and rock... and bulky poke... and etc. are gone) late game, and that is one of the only roles he can fill (lol normal stab).

    Sandslash sets up and powers through many teams

    I suggest trying him @ whoever. The results are much better than they seem on paper
  15. Vemane

    Vemane

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2010
    Messages:
    398
    I disagree!

    | Landorus-Therian |
    +----------------------------------------+
    | Abilties |
    | Intimidate 100.000% |
    +----------------------------------------+
    | Items |
    | Leftovers 46.973% |
    | Choice Scarf 25.081%

    Fairly common, but it is unimportant, and so I digress :P

    Concerning adamant/jolly:
    I see. If anything, it still is faster than the likes of keldeo, terrakion, etc. which certainly has some merit when adamant. :)

    By the time sandslash does go out though (midgame/late game) the things it can't ko should be weakened to the point where they are indeed ko-able, something that isn't too difficult in sandstorm after quite a bit of time.

    I don't like how it says "a good portion of ou," as I find it misleading. It is outsped by the majority of /scarved/ pokemon, but that is the case with virtually every non-scarved mon! So I don't feel it should be held as too much of a detriment.

    While landorus's sd set is stronger, it, unlike sandslash, is outsped by a good portion of NON scarved mons, making it very difficult to run in this meta (though against defensive teams, it works wonders)

    And finally, try not to get involved with picturing him as a top-tier threat, because that isn't what I'm trying to portray him as. I'm trying to put him alongside the likes of toxicroak and zapdos and co. (very obviously not top-tier threats!), not in the a or s tiers. ^_^
  16. Avira

    Avira

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2009
    Messages:
    243
    I think that Zapdos should move down to C-Tier. It's just a specialized check to Tornadus-T that gets destroyed by pretty much every other relevant special attacker. I guess it also checks Scizor, but there are better checks to the most commonly seen Pokemon in OU than Zapdos.
  17. Gehenna

    Gehenna

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2010
    Messages:
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    Ok, I'm seriously tired of people talking shit about Zapdos. No one even considered him a bad poke until people started arguing about him on the suspect thread. Zapdos is by no means a bad mon, and when it receives Lightningrod it will be even more solid.
  18. Nova

    Nova Palisades
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

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    The problem with Zapdos is that although it is a solid Pokemon overall, it's outclassed by other Pokemon in OU in its main roles. As a Special sweeper, Thundurus-T is more efficient with a much higher Special Attack stat, 1 more point in base Speed that is very crucial in outspeeding the numerous Pokemon sitting at base 100 Speed, and access to Nasty Plot which sends his Special Attack soaring, being able to 2HKO Blissey with some hazards down. As a Specially Defensive wall and primary check to Tornadus-T, Jirachi and Rotom-W outperform Zapdos in this role. Jirachi has many more resistances than Zapdos and access to Stealth Rock and Wish to support the rest of the team. Rotom-W has only one weakness that is not a very common attacking type (Grass), better checks Rain teams than Zapdos does due to a resistance to Water type attacks, and can more freely abuse Volt Switch as he does not have a Stealth Rock weakness. Rotom-W can usually handle Scizor as well, due to 4x resistance to Bullet Punch and being able to outspeed Scizor and hit the bug with Hydro Pump or cripple it with Will-o-Wisp before it can U-turn. As a Physical wall, Landorus-T outclasses Zapdos with its Intimidate ability and ability to also check Terrakion. Zapdos is a great Pokemon, but typically there are other Pokemon that can perform the role Zapdos is performing more effectively.
  19. MicfiJasan

    MicfiJasan

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2012
    Messages:
    136
    Just a little nitpick here, but since Keldeo is a suspect this round shouldn't it be S-rank? Cuz right now the tier definitions do not coincide with the current suspect test.
  20. blitzlefan

    blitzlefan shake it off!

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2012
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    IMO, Keldeo doesn't deserve its suspect status and chances are it's not going to be banned. Torn-T has a good chance of moving up to Ubers, but Keldeo is just a special variant of Terrakion (that gains a massive boost in Rain) and has reliable checks/counters in Lati@s, Jellicent, etc. I like Keldeo where it is, and there's no point in moving it to S-Tier simply because of it being suspect.
  21. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2011
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    While I think almost all of us don't think Keldeo is broken what-so-ever, it is still an amazing attacker and an absolute monster under the rain, the specs set even has a tiny chance to 2HKO its counters like Celebi and Amoonguss with hydropump in the rain. Now that's power. The scarf set can give offensive teams problems, and the calm mind and specs set screw over any defensive team without a direct counter. Again, I don't think its anywhere near broken, but it certainly is a force to reckon with. It may be S-tier worthy in its own right ignoring its current suspect status.
  22. Vemane

    Vemane

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    I feel as if terrakion is S-Tier, than keldeo more than deserves it. Whether or not it fits the description is one thing, but it most certainly performs on a same, or greater, level than terrakion.
  23. Gehenna

    Gehenna

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2010
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    Keldeo and Hippowdon for S-Tier.
  24. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

    Joined:
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    I agree Keldeo, however, Hippowdon is not S-Tier material. It is washed away by the Water-type attacks running around, it either has bad special bulk or worse physical bulk that don't let it counter things like Terrakion as effectively (this depends on where you invest EVs), and it lacks the same offensive presence that Tyranitar has. While it's true that Hippowdon hits very hard for a wall, unfortunately there are many things immune to Earthquake these days. Although Hippowdon has reliable recovery, and doesn't care about Dugtrio unlike Tyranitar, Hippowdon unfortunately has some flaws that prevent him from being solid S-Tier.
  25. G-Von

    G-Von

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
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    I actually brought this topic up the second I heard he was a suspect, and I forget what three users it was, but they all completely shutdown the idea of Keldeo being S-tier worthy. I think its at least viable since Keldeo hits like a truck on both sides offensively, only needs rain to perform at full capacity (which isn't even necessary; just overkill sometimes), and is for the most part the special version of Terrakion. The only thing holding Keldeo back is the fact it doesn't have anything to increase it's speed outside of a Choice Scarf unlike Terrakion.
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