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Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by PK Gaming, Oct 17, 2012.

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  1. Super Mario Bro

    Super Mario Bro All we ever look for

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    I don't think Xatu should be ranked higher than Espeon. Sure, it can be splashed more easily on most teams, but Espy makes full Baton Pass chains a pretty powerful force. It can also pass Calm Mind in mini-chains.

    So yea, Espeon should be Rank B. Nothing can duplicate its role of passing Calm Mind while blocking hazards, and it makes an entire play-style (as degenerate as it is) viable.
  2. erisia

    erisia (macho) brace yourselves
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    In regards to Togekiss, I think C-tier is a pretty good place for it to be.

    "Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are typically inferior to Pokemon in the above ranks."

    It can attempt to fill the same para-flinching niche that Jirachi does with Body Slam, Air Slash, Roost, and a coverage move, but the latter takes the cake most of the time due to its resistances, lack of SR weakness, and the ability to set SR itself if desired. Nasty Plot Togekiss works really well in combination with Jirachi however, and it can break through most opponents if you can paralyse them in advance. This isn't too hard if you have something like Ferrothorn, Shuffler Dragonite or a Jirachi of your own in the wings. Unfortunately it's a little eclipsed by Tornadus-T if Drizzle is up, but Togekiss is somewhat better at staying in and sweeping through teams in the late game due to Roost, better standing bulk, and the excellent Nasty Plot.

    If Togekiss got Serene Grace Hurricane, of course, then that would be another story... :p
  3. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

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    kingdra can sweep unprepare rain teams as much as riolu can sweep unprepared stall teams js. i don't think its ability to manhandle rain is worth its liability. especially since prepared rain teams can beat it or simply dent it and stuff. its great antimeta, but liability elsewhere. can't do much to sun, to hail, to weatherless, or even sand imo.

    i actually want to say i <3 riolu, but i would never use it on a serious team. only if i was bored ;3
  4. TaBuu

    TaBuu

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    I used to have a pretty unhealthy obsession with that bird. I mean just look at the bird. It has Wings of Power, Talons of Destruction, and Hair Style of Swag:
    [​IMG]
    I too think it is pretty underrated with a Scarf. It can easily revenge things such as Breloom, Keldeo, Terrakion and Latios. On HO Teams it'd work real well thanks to Intimidate, U-Turn, Respectable Speed and High Attack. Staraptor is blessed with a beautiful movepool. Brave Bird and Close Combat work well together terrorizing the entire OU meta. Return is situational but is a solid choice. U-Turn is a given. C-Rank is where it should be though as it is outclassed by other Scarfers such as Jirachi, Landorus or Terrakion.
    ::::::::::::::::::::::::
    [​IMG]
  5. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

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    Staraptor looks like a pretty shitty check to Breloom:

    +1 (intimidate) 252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Staraptor: 255-302 (81.99 - 97.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

    -1 (intimidate) 244+ Atk Breloom Focus Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Staraptor: 237-280 (76.2 - 90.03%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
  6. TaBuu

    TaBuu

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    .....*Facepalms in shame*......
    The great predator of the air falls to a walking mushroom...
    :::::::::::::::::::::::
    [​IMG]
  7. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

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    The thing with Staraptor is it pretty much needs a scarf to be somewhat viable.

    It might not have a lot of switch ins, HOWEVER, Tornadus-T is such a threat that every team carries a flying resist and SR. This means Staraptor is more or less shitty atm. When Torn-T gets banned it might get better, but for right now it is not that great. I daresay it should go to D Tier.
  8. Wizarus

    Wizarus

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    Skarmory, Bronzong, Metagross, and Jirachi are the only things that can safely switch into Staraptor in that are viable in OU. This is a poke that has a chance to OHKO 4/0 Landorus-T through Intimidate after rocks. I think it's at least C-Tier worthy.
  9. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

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    Rotom-W switches into BB safely. and Jirachi is SUPER common for checking Torn-T. Especially if you play weatherless, which was my point. They might be FEW, but they are certainly used a lot (Wash and Rachi I mean). Which was why I said Raptor is losing out. Cause its counters are most used to wall / check / counter Torn-T, which is a huge threat atm otherwise.
  10. Wizarus

    Wizarus

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    Rotom-W will almost never want to switch into Staraptor. CB Reckless Double-edge will always OHKO, and its Choice Scarf Returns will always 2HKO. Even its Choice Scarf CCs come dangerously close to 2HKOing Specially Defensive Rotom-W, and U-turn just means good match-ups. It can't switch into anything but BB(Actually it can't even switch into that, CB Reckless BB will always 2HKO SPD Rotom-W after rocks)

    Jirachi is common, that's why I listed it as one of it's counters. Even still, CB Staraptor 2HKOs specially defensive Jirachi, and CM Rain Jirachi with CC 53% of the time after rocks.
  11. Lord of Bays

    Lord of Bays

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    I've enjoyed OHKOing a great deal of Rotom-Ws with CB Double-Edge. Hell, Brave Bird 2HKOs any nonphysically-defensive Rotom-W (does a minimum of 51%). Reckless makes Staraptor insanely powerful; more powerful than Salamence and Dragonite. Seriously. I did the calcs, and Jolly Brave Bird is more powerful than Adamant Outrage from both of them.
  12. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

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    choice band? i was referring to the scarf set since thats the only one I ever see used.

    if you predict correctly I guess Raptor Band is about as menacing as Band Rakion but with lower speeds, huge recoil damage, and a weakness 4 rocks. Band Rak does most of the same things and threats more of the meta (seriously, if you predict X to come in you can SE half of them). The thing with that bird is that its sr weak and frail (and lets not forget the damned recoil damage = lolpriority) while Terrakion is neither of these things. (since terrak can switch from BP and not worry about SR damage....)

    The only difference is that Star can spam a flying STAB. Wouldn't Specs Tornadus-T work just a bit better in this area? Sure its not hitting on the physical side but in all fairness if you predict things like Rotom-W to switch into Specs Nadus you can 2HKO with Focus Blast after Rocks; Just like Double Edge.

    My beef with DE is that its recoil w/ reckless + SR + frailness = can't really switch in much. Not being able to switch into attacks sucks whereas Tornadus-T or Terrak retain bulk to do so and still have that power Raptor has.

    Jirachi is also super common; not to mention speed tie with JOLLY band versions (which im unsure supports the band calcs you gave earlier, and it outspeeds adamant versions). Rachi also has a scarf set and can wreck band, it gets TWave, which screws you, and it gets a strong STAB.

    Do I need any more reason to hate this bird?
  13. CTC

    CTC The Lord Shepherd shall guideth ye cattle
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    Tsk Tsk Tsk, so the truth comes out. After having seen me sweep countless teams with riolu, how can you say that Shurt? </3
    Also Staraptor with scarf and final gambit is a great hole opener denting steels for a sweeper. Underused and underrated imo
  14. Wizarus

    Wizarus

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    It needs support(Rapid Spin). I don't hear people saying Band Dragonite and Scarf Salamence sucks because they have a SR weakness, no you use Rapid Spin with them.

    There are key differences to Tornadus-T and Staraptor. Tornadus-T needs rain, doesn't have a secondary STAB, is specially based, and doesn't come close to 2HKOing Jirachi with Superpower. Band CC from Staraptor can 2HKO SPD Jirachi after rocks, so yes, it can 2HKO Jolly Jirachi on the switch if it wins the speed tie, and Jirachi doesn't have Choice Scarf. And I will say again, all of Rotom-Ws most common sets can't switch into Staraptor at all. SPD Rotom-W is 2HKO'd by CB Brave Bird.


    B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outclassed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.


    By definition, Staraptor belongs in B-Tier. D-Tier is far too low for Staraptor.
  15. BlackLight

    BlackLight

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    My only problem with Staraptor is the massive problem of switching in. Its bulk is weak, and it doesn't have a large amount of weaknesses. Getting Staraptor into the fight is hell. I had to use Volt Switch + Rapid Spin Forretress to get it in, because if Staraptor takes a hit, it tends to die, very, very quickly. It's good, though, as those Brave Birds hurt like hell. I personally like BandRaptor with BB/CC/UTurn/Quick Attack, and Quick Attack was quite useful for nailing potential checks, such as weakened Latios. However, I do feel as though it wasn't worth it a lot of the time, and I would have rather gone with something a little scarier at times (BandMence XD)
  16. Reymedy

    Reymedy They live and die by my command.
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    Having 75% with Staraptor and 75 with Mence/Nite is clearly not the same. You can't compare it, moreover because their coverage is insane, Staraptor's one is not so great because the options he can run are really limited.
    Dragonite also got a way to recover, Mence too even if it's not so used. They also got a pretty usable SpA stat, I think Staraptor is pretty ridiculous in comparison.

    The typing also, excuse me, but Staraptor typing is just awful. You can't compare it to a Dragon Typing.
    Band Staraptor is slow, really slow thus gets killed by both priorities (it does resist 0 priorities) and other Scarfer.

    I only find the Final Gambit set filling a real niche.
  17. Wizarus

    Wizarus

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    I could see if the pokemon outclassing Staraptor were coming from B-Tier, but all the pokemon mentioned that would outclass Staraptor are A and S ranked.

    Locking yourself into Outrage is actually a thing, and the only other viable physical Dragon-Type move is Dragon Claw, which isn't exactly powerful. You're also Lowballing Starptor's coverage. Flying/Normal with CC gets insane coverage, to the point where only 4 pokemon viable in OU are switching into Band Staraptor without dying. 100 Speed isn't "really slow" at all. Of course scarfers are going to outspeed it, scarfers are meant to outspeed everything without a Choice Scarf or modifiers.

    Edit: Just wanted to point out that Staraptor also gets Roost, for what it's worth. Although I really can't speak for 3 attacks + Roost set being viable, since I haven't used the set.
  18. Siggu

    Siggu

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    And if we consider ALL the pokémon available in the games, the only one that resists Staraptor's Normal/Flying/Fighting coverage is... Rotom

    Much like a previous post said, I think the only problems Staraptor has are its reliance on recoil moves and its frailness. If it manages to switch in... good luck
  19. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
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    Staraptor should be in D Rank imo. Yeah sure Reckless + BB + 125 Atk is nice and all but the bird has bad bulk, is SR weak, takes a ton of recoil to use its best move, and dies easily from priority. I have not seen any variant of Staraptor killing more than one Pokemon in the oppsing team before dying from a combination of SR + recoil + priority. I also agree that the prevelance of flying type resists due to the popularity of Torn-T makes Starpator quite useless right now.

    And lol about Kingdra, just lol. You guys are underastimating the fuck out of it... Its only niche is an anti-rain measure? Then why RD Kingdra gives offensive teams one hell of a time, especially Sun teams (and Rain teams but everybody knows this). It is a solid B rank poke, and it really is a shame that not more people are using it, just because they are stuck in the ''anti-rain poke mentality'' and prefer other anti-rain measures.
  20. Master of the Six Kings

    Master of the Six Kings

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    I can't imagine Starpator being anything but C rank. I agree that its reliance on recoil moves does kill its viability, but if you can get it in before rocks, or around rocks, it can do work. Having CC is such a godsend for the bird. C's clause of "crippling weakness" really seems like it describes Staraptor perfectly. It seems to fit in with the other C rank mons.

    Although, i really don't see Virizion in C tier. It recieved the shallowest support moveset of any Grass Pokemon i've ever seen (no spores, powders, seeds, or anything) and its offensive stats force it to use set up moves to do anything. His set up moves also show how shallow its offensive movepool is, being Dual Stab and Stone Edge or Dual Stab Hidden power coverage, which can easily be sponged once its set is revealed. Its mixed set can be alright with Work up, but its inability to boost its speed really makes it a poor setup sweeper and it takes a turn or two to set up and be outsped by near any scarfer. It is D tier with the best of them imo.
  21. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio @Fighting Necktie
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    I think B-Rank is a perfect spot for Kingdra. It is a bit outclassed by Latios on the special side and Salamence/Haxorus on the physical, in that these Pokemon perform basically the same offensive job without being dependent on weather. Kingdra's all kinds of out-classed as a bulky water-type.

    That said, out-classed or not, I think people forget that it's still very effective as an offensive Dragon even when its not raining. It's not as good as the others, but Kingdra's LO/Specs Draco Meteors still smash a lot of shit in sand/sun. It's STAB combo still puts people between a rock and a hard place in the right situation. I use max Speed Timid, and with its natural bulk, Kingdra's survivability actually lets it beats out quite a few offensive and defensive opponents one-on-one. Those 4x resistances to Water- and Fire-attacks come in handy more often than you realize as well. That Steel-Resistance is always so golden on any offensive poke. :D

    So even at its least useful, Kingdra is still a nice blend of offensive Dragon and bulky water-type. It's survivability (mix of bulk/speed) and lack of weaknesses makes it a defensive asset, while its STAB Dragon/Water attacks make it a definite offensive one. It's far from the best bulky water-type, and not the most destructive offensive Dragon, but it can do a bit of each, and remains effective-- it's often "good enough", even outside rain, when it's least useful.

    Then there's the opposite side, when Rain is up, Ferrothorn is gone, and you are packing one of the most destructive, broken Pokemon in the game. A Pokemon that would be feared even in Ubers, and far-outclassed Shaymin-S, Darkrai, Manaphy, etc. in test round 1 of BW-- more broken, more destructive, more frustrating to deal with. Unstoppable. Traits that are even more invaluable when you're facing down Torn-T, Thund-T, and Keldeo. Don't play around them, don't take them on directly. Just blast them all the fuck away in an instant.

    Considering Kingdra's overall usefulness, I'd say B-Rank is the best spot. Outside rain it's a bit outclassed, but it's good enough on its own merits; while when it gets the support it needs, you're dealing with S+++ BAN IT NOW level power. B seems like a good compromise.
  22. Wizarus

    Wizarus

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    Why do people keep on mentioning these Flying-type resisters that counter Tornadus-T like they matter?

    -Jolteon is lol always OHKO'd by CB BB after rocks.
    -Thundurus-T is almost always OHKO'd by CB BB after rocks.
    -Rotom-W(or all Rotoms for that matter)is always 2HKO'd by CB BB after rocks outside of Bold varients, which is not a Tornadus-T counter.
    -Specially Defensive Zapdos is always 2HKO by CB BB after rocks.

    That's Brave Bird killing them on the switch.


    -Almost all forms of Jirachi risk being 2HKO'd by Band CC after rocks
    -The standard Sassy Bronzong risks being 2HKO'd by Band CC after rocks
    -Specially Defensive Skarmory even has a chance of being 2HKO'd by Band CC

    Those are all the pokes designed to counter Tornadus-T losing to Staraptor outside of Metagross, which is about as non-existent as Staraptor. Staraptor needs support to work, I agree, but it does function well if it gets it.
  23. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

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    Scarf Zappy (friend uses at 1700 on PO) lolfucks CB / CS Staraptor
    Scarf Rotom-W fucks Raptor since -1 def after CC. Scarf doesn't 2HKO I believe bulky Rotom-W w/o DE, for the reckless does but you lose 47%
    Zong walls you
    Band is beaten by max speed Jirachi Thunder or Iron Head spam, and scarf also pwns (and you must run jolly to speed tie, which I think misses the 2HKO w/o rocks).

    Oh and lets not forget that Torn-T guarantees everyone running SR more than ever (though it was used a lot b4 too).

    With Rocks, every scarf should OHKO Staraptor. JS. Also can't switch in nearly at all to any offensive piviot after rocks thanks to shitty typing + bulk. Leave it in C Tier
  24. Wizarus

    Wizarus

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    Sorry, but I disagree.

    Choice Scarf Staraptor will always OHKO 4/0 Scarf Zapdos with Double Edge after rocks, Band Staraptor doesn't even need SR, and BB will ensure that Zapdos cannot switch in again if SR are on the field.

    Scarf Staraptor has a 93% chance to OHKO 4/0 Scarf Rotom-W with Double Edge after rocks, will always 2HKO with CC after rocks, and even has a 98% chance to 2HKO with Brave Bird after rocks. Choice Band doesn't need SR to achieve the OHKO with Double Edge, will ensure that Rotom-W can't switch in again after CC or BB, and U-Turn will always 2HKO after rocks.

    Scarf Staraptor can't touch the standard Bronzong with anything but U-Turn, but Band Staraptor has a 33% chance of 2HKOing Sassy Bronzong with CC after rocks.

    The standard 252HP/252Spe Timid Jirachi is 2HKO'd 53% of the time by Choice Band CC after rocks. The same goes for the standard 252/0 Specially Defensive Jirachi. Sub Paralysis Jirachi is always 2HKO'd by CC after rocks and has a 91% chance of doing so without them. Choice Scarf Jirachi can force CB Staraptor out. And this is coming from 252/252 Jolly Reckless Staraptor.

    Every Scarfer OHKOing Staraptor doesn't matter, as those Scarfers can't switch in outside of Jirachi, which can once. And Staraptor can just switch out. It's too low in D-Tier, but people seem to want it in C-Tier, which is fine.
  25. Lord of Bays

    Lord of Bays

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    Scarf Zapdos? Scarf Rotom-W? Do you realize that Staraptor carries Double-Edge and is also base 100 speed? And neither can switch in?
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