Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

[Magcargo]

No. That's it. I'm done. I kept quiet last time people argued for this because I had already argued for dropping it and didn't feel like it was necessary since PK seemed to be on my side. Gastrodon is NOT GOOD IN THIS META. He's complete setup fodder for almost all setup sweepers except for Lucario and Thundurus-T. He certainly can't switch in on setup sweepers. Example: Dragonite has Multiscale up and uses DD. Gastro switches in, and eats an Outrage to the face only to do pitiful damage to Dragonite with Ice Beam. Not only that, but most banded Pokémon can at least 2HKO it anyway (some like Dragonite, Kyurem-B, and Haxorus can OHKO with prior damage).
But the real reason Gastrodon sucks is that this is a Landorus/Keldeo/Breloom metagame. Gastrodon is 2HKO'd at least by all three of those, and is easy setup fodder for Breloom. Not only that, but because this is a LKB metagame, Celebi is also everywhere. Ferrothorn has always been a staple as well, as has Venusaur. People don't really prepare for Gastrodon (cause they really never have to). But they DO prepare for Rotom-W, so Grass types are surprisingly common, and all of them beat Gastrodon. YES, he has a niche. But he doesn't deserve to be up there with some of the best walls in OU like Jellicent and Amoongus. Keep it C Rank!

Now I disagree with you here. Gastrodon is NOT a setup folder for every sweeper. Sweepers like terrakion, garchomp and salamence cannot simply switch in and setup because they fear scald and Ice beam. Just because he can't switch in on setup sweepers doesn't make him bad, as only dedicated walls like skarmory and blissey can do that. Banded dragonite haxorus and kyurem-b are the strongest attackers in OU and even jellicent is OHKO'd by their attacks. Specs keldeo also can't 2HKO gastrodon with secret sword either. Sure it may be 2HKO'd by breloom and landorus, but so are jellicent, tyranitar and certain hippowdon variants. Also, gastrodon has the ability to counter calm mind jirachi, heatran without hp grass, starmie, thundorus-t without grass knot and much more. Gastrodon can also run an offensive set because of how easy it is to get a storm drain boost. Gastodon may have quite a few flws, but its many pros outwiegh them. It deserves low or even mid B-rank.

 

[Lavos]

reposting since it got largely ignored and i feel it's a major issue

petitioning that jellicent be moved up to a-rank

the guy who posted above me really got me thinking about this. why is such an integral pokemon to certain playstyles in the same rank as pokemon like espeon, sableye, and ditto that see little to no competitive usage? jellicent is the best spinblocker in the game right now since it's able to defeat every single spinner (sans toxic tenta, who beats gar + sab too) and it's also got enough bulk, status, and access to taunt + reliable recovery to make it worth using outside the sole role of a spinblocker. not to mention jellicent's absolutely key to a successful bw2 sand stall team, as the specially defensive version is a hard wall to any keldeo variant lacking a specs hp ghost, and it also checks sheer force landorus, life orb tank latias, and other common special-attacking sights quite nicely. overall jellicent is simply a fantastic utility pokemon to have on any defensively oriented team. clearly deserving of a-rank imo

 

[victinivcreate1]

reposting since it got largely ignored and i feel it's a major issue

DOnt forget my argument bro. I went into more detail and got some calcs in there as well.

 

[Memphis Grizzly]

I must say that I agree with arguments that are being made for Jellicent, now that everyone sees that point of view is questionable. I believe it's passed down to a C-rank solely on the idea that Stall as a whole is not viable on this metagame with only a few ladder successful teams to back it up, as most "good" players don't back up Stall in major tournaments. Still this train of thought doesn't defer the fact that Jellicent is huge accent to Stall; whether it's "viable" or not. It's a huge staple and in it's own right it has great qualities that have been stated above.

 

[victinivcreate1]

I must say that I agree with arguments that are being made for Jellicent, now that everyone sees that point of view is questionable. I believe it's passed down to a C-rank solely on the idea that Stall as a whole is not viable on this metagame with only a few ladder successful teams to back it up, as most "good" players don't back up Stall in major tournaments. Still this train of thought doesn't defer the fact that Jellicent is huge accent Stall; whether it's "viable" or not. It's a huge staple and in it's own right it hasgreat qualities that have been stated above.

Not just that Jellicent is great on stall. The combination of JelliThorn can beat stall singlehandely.

I have a team which features the duo and they power through Stall Completely. Ferro sets up spikes. Spinner? Donphan switches in. I swtch Jelly. Donny cant spin and I can OHKO with Surf/Hydro Pump.

Tentacruel is easy to play around if its not a SubToxic set, which Ferro takes on.

 

[Memphis Grizzly]

Not just that Jellicent is great on stall. The combination of JelliThorn can beat stall singlehandely.

I have a team which features the duo and they power through Stall Completely. Ferro sets up spikes. Spinner? Donphan switches in. I swtch Jelly. Donny cant spin and I can OHKO with Surf/Hydro Pump.

Tentacruel is easy to play around if its not a SubToxic set, which Ferro takes on.

Well I'm not implying any sort of combination, just Jellicent as a whole. I find that it being paired with any Pokemon irrelevant. Now as for Tentacruel vs. Jellicent it is possible to play around, but on Rain teams I think the team slot will more likely be filled by Tentacruel which also hinders Jellicent's popularity. They might not fulfill the same role, but both share a common typing.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Well I'm not implying any sort of combination, just Jellicent as a whole. I find that it being paired with any Pokemon irrelevant. Now as for Tentacruel vs. Jellicent it is possible to play around, but on Rain teams I think the team slot will more likely be filled by Tentacruel which also hinders Jellicent's popularity. They might not fulfill the same role, but both share a common typing.

Oh ok. But Landorus I requires some team support, or Latias laughs at it. Thats why BandTar is so popular these days.

 

[Halcyon.]

I'd definitely throw my support behind putting Jellicent in A rank. I find that a lot of the teams I make have serious problems with Jellicent, whether it's the physically or specially defensive one. Very few things can flat-out OHKO it at full health if it has the right spread. And usually those things are pretty frail (Breloom and Thundurus-T for example) and they don't like having to switch in and out every time a Jellicent appears. Plus, pairing it with a Ferrothorn creates a wonderful defensive core which, again, few things can break through. Seems to be the very definition of A rank to me.

 

[victinivcreate1]

I'd definitely throw my support behind putting Jellicent in A rank. I find that a lot of the teams I make have serious problems with Jellicent, whether it's the physically or specially defensive one. Very few things can flat-out OHKO it at full health if it has the right spread. And usually those things are pretty frail (Breloom and Thundurus-T for example) and they don't like having to switch in and out every time a Jellicent appears. Plus, pairing it with a Ferrothorn creates a wonderful defensive core which, again, few things can break through. Seems to be the very definition of A rank to me.

So far Thundy T can break through JelliThorn, but it has to be Mild/Modest and must rely on Focus Miss to beat Ferrothron. Even Superpower fails to 2HKO Ferrothorn.

 

[Eleman]

JelliThorn is a combo that I loved to use before Thundurus T and Techniloom came into the metagame. For those of you saying that JelliThorn is very hard to counter, honestly it isn't. Both Ferro and Jelli are countered by things such as Thundurus T, Breloom, Magnezone and many others. Two of the three pokemon I listed are very dangerous and common in the current OU metagame. This is a serious flaw for Jellicent because it is weak as a wall to many pokemon in the metagame. I see it as a pokemon with its own unique niche that can be used very effectively, but definitely not A-Rank material because of it just not being able to counter some of the most dangerous pokemon in OU. It definitely requires team support and can sometimes just be a liability depending on what team it faces. Like a rain team I faced a while ago. I used a sun team and with Venusaur, I swept straight through the other guy's team once toed was weak enough using Jellicent as setup bait. It was not fast enough to hit me with the taunt and it was pretty much gg at that point. So as I said earlier this proves my point that Jellicent absolutely needs team support to function well and it has many flaws that put a damper on its walling capabilities. But in the end, I see Jellicent as a very good pokemon for teams in need of a bulky water and although it has several major flaws, it is still a pokemon that you can count on.

 

[victinivcreate1]

JelliThorn is a combo that I loved to use before Thundurus T and Techniloom came into the metagame. For those of you saying that JelliThorn is very hard to counter, honestly it isn't. Both Ferro and Jelli are countered by things such as Thundurus T, Breloom, Magnezone and many others. Two of the three pokemon I listed are very dangerous and common in the current OU metagame. This is a serious flaw for Jellicent because it is weak as a wall to many pokemon in the metagame. I see it as a pokemon with its own unique niche that can be used very effectively, but definitely not A-Rank material because of it just not being able to counter some of the most dangerous pokemon in OU. It definitely requires team support and can sometimes just be a liability depending on what team it faces. Like a rain team I faced a while ago. I used a sun team and with Venusaur, I swept straight through the other guy's team once toed was weak enough using Jellicent as setup bait. It was not fast enough to hit me with the taunt and it was pretty much gg at that point. So as I said earlier this proves my point that Jellicent absolutely needs team support to function well and it has many flaws that put a damper on its walling capabilities. But in the end, I see Jellicent as a very good pokemon for teams in need of a bulky water and although it has several major flaws, it is still a pokemon that you can count on.

Can Politoed wall Thundy-T? Can Politoed wall Breloom? No.

Yet it is S-Rank because of its great Rain.

Jelly can be A rank because it stops Keldeo COLD.

That single reason should be why Jelly belongs in A rank.

 

[Lavos]

it's ferrocent not jellithorn ~_~

 

[Punchshroom]

Goddamn, does that really matter? People get it, though I personally like Jellithorn better because it rolls off the tongue.

 

[Memphis Grizzly]

Why am I not crowned to the top?

A Rank Material

• Counters most Keldeo variants
• Checks Landorus-I
• Most viable spin blocker
• Great utility and flexible defenses
• Staple to Stall
• Reliable recovery

 

[victinivcreate1]

Why am I not crowned to the top?

A Rank Material

• Counters most Keldeo variants
• Most viable spin blocker
• Great utility and flexible defenses
• Staple to Stall
• Reliable recovery

Dont forget it can reliably beat Landorus Incarnate.

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Jellicent: 179-212 (44.3 - 52.47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Factor in Leftovers recovery and Jellicent is safe.

0 SpA Jellicent Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Landorus: 288-340 (90.28 - 106.58%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

Good chance to OHKO back with Ice Beam. Scald/Surf/Hydro Pump 2HKOs.

 

[GCSChris]

I agree that jellicent should be A rank. Althoughy one could argue that tentacruel is usually better, I strongly disagree. Don't get me wrong, tentacruel is amazing, but jellicent boasts a recovery, access to other utility such as taunt, water absorb, and scald/toxic/will-o'-wisp. It also can stop Lantorus-I, something tentacruel can not do. It's an extremely reliable spin-blocker, and has outstanding typing.

 

[Anty]

I also think jelly should be A-Rank as it can take a lot of hits, recover off the damage and burn physical attackers. It has also started to make some pokemon use psyshock over psychic and it gets waterspout, just if you want some gimmicky choice scarf set

 

[ZandgaiaX]

Can Politoed wall Thundy-T? Can Politoed wall Breloom? No.

Yet it is S-Rank because of its great Rain.

Jelly can be A rank because it stops Keldeo COLD.

That single reason should be why Jelly belongs in A rank.

Politoed is S-rank because with Drizzle, it's an instant support. One that can only be beaten by a different weather. Not to mention that having a politoed on your team makes other pokémon on your team more powerful. Like ferrothorn, tentacruel and keldeo.

Politoed in and of itself isn't even B-rank.

 

[Prinz]

I support Jellicent for the A-rank as well. It's a very very good counter for Keldeo and a nice check to Landorus-I too, which are both extreme dangerous threats nowadays. It's also the best spin blocker right now and the only viable in my opinion, Gengar loses to both Starmie and Tentacruel and it's has a bad staying power in general, Sableye loses to Starmie and it has some problem to deal with Tentacruel, especially if rain is up and it has not a very good defensive statistics though. What else? Spiritomb, Cofagrigus and Dusclops has good defensive statistics but they haven't a reliable recovery move and I don't see how they can work fine in the current metagame honestly... So yeah Jellicent is the best spin blocker in my opinion, it only loses to Tentacruel if it is running a Substitute Toxic set and to Offensive Starmie if Jellicent is not Specially Defensive or if Starmie is running an extreme offensive set with Thunder and Life Orb, which isn't really common though since many people prefer running Defensive Starmie to have a check to Rain teams (Politoed and Keldeo mainly) and to Terrakion too nowadays. Ah, of course Jellicent has Recover which is a reliable recovery move and which with its good bulk make the Jellyfish a really good spin blocker, as I already said. Jellicent can also give some problem to any Stall team with Taunt but this isn't really important imo since Stall teams aren't very common but of course give problems to Stall teams isn't not bad. The only bad thing is the weakness to Pursuit which makes Jellicent quite easily to deal with, since Tyranitar is enough to eliminate it (and if Tyranitar Pursuits the Jellyfish, Keldeo can sweep more easily later of course). However, Jellicent is definitely A-rank material.

 

[Magcargo]

Like I said before, toxicroak is rain reliant and very frail. Even though he can beat quite a few threats, he has subpar bulk and takes damage from every other weather. Unlike venusaur, he doesn't have access to a sleep move to potentially cripple the opponent. His attack and speed are rather low for a sweeper and even tough he has sucker punch to remedy this somewhat, Pokemon like jellicent and gengar can play around this by using a status move. He also has trouble with quite a few psychic types. He has many advantages, but his flaws leave him in top B-Rank.

BTW, reuniclus should go up to top B-rank because of his lack of life orb recoil, bulk and his amazing power. His low speed can become an advantage in trickroom, where he can comfortably destroy teams lacking scizor, tyranitar and jirachi.

 

[Vemane]

Like I said before, toxicroak is rain reliant and very frail. Even though he can beat quite a few threats, he has subpar bulk and takes damage from every other weather. Unlike venusaur, he doesn't have access to a sleep move to potentially cripple the opponent. His attack and speed are rather low for a sweeper and even tough he has sucker punch to remedy this somewhat, Pokemon like jellicent and gengar can play around this by using a status move. He also has trouble with quite a few psychic types. He has many advantages, but his flaws leave him in top B-Rank.

Top B-Rank?

I'd put him mid at BEST... if not low.

• INCREDIBLY Reliant on rain, as mentioned
• This reliance does not give him 2x speed or extra damage, it gives him a bit of healing... Not getting worn down is nice, but c'mon...
• Slow
• Sucker punch is nice but unreliable

 

[Memphis Grizzly]

Agreeing that Toxicroak should remain where it stands, the numerous amounts of psychic and ground types in OU really stagger it's sweeping capabilities. It's second typing is rather flimsy, and it's overall coverage is lack lusting. It's fragility is easy to exploit where even a Choice Band Bullet Punch bites

252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 24 HP / 0 Def Toxicroak: 229-271 (73.16 - 86.58%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Though it has great effects on teams that are unprepared for Toxicroak it's easily played around.

 

[Gary]

Toxicroak is amazing once it sets up, but there lies the problem. Reliance on rain and being incredibly frail hinders his sweeping potential. Breloom works out better then Croak because of his boosted priority, Spore, and all around better dual STAB. I've rarely seen Croak use Poison Jab or Sludge Wave lol. Still, Croak is still quite a threat, and should easily reside in either B+ or B tier. I think B+Tier fits it best.

 

[flamingfire77]

I petition for Vaporeon to move from C Rank to the B Rank.

It's walling can be annoying as hell, especially in rain, where it can endlessly stall with Toxic, damage and burn with Scald, and phaze with Roar. This is capped off with Hydration, (which, IMO is a much better ability than Water Absorb as it avoids the omniscent Toxic that destroys walls) allowing it to use Rest and not sleep.

It's the definition of a B rank portion as a supportive Pokemon, as it can wall given the right amount of support (which, in it's case, is usually rain). Electric-type moves only do a bit of damage because of its sky-high Spec. Def.

I believe Vaporeon belongs in the B Rank and is very underrated as a supportive threat.

 

[Squidsauce]

There have been numerous posts about moving Jellicent to A with literally 0 opposition. This goes back many, many pages. Whoever is in charge of this thread either move it or post why there's hesitation, cause there's either massive oversight or the opinion of one person stopping a great mon.

Btw taunt on jellicent let's it beat a lot of things as well. Fits even on offensive teams