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Gen 5 The RU Viability Ranking Thread

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by Molk, Oct 5, 2012.

  1. complete legitimacy

    complete legitimacy Honko's Happy Funtime With Men
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    I disagree with moving Magmortar up. Hurricane Moltres has kinda taken over its niche because Slowking can't beat Moltres 100% of the time either now. They both require a lot of support, and Moltres is more threatening to more teams. Also, with the rise of Toxic Spikes, this means that Moltres is a lot more suited to beat common stall builds (although Regirock stall beats Moltres). Magmortar is pretty outclassed now; its only redeeming factor is Vital Spirit, which means that you should only use Magmortar over Moltres if you're absurdly weak to HP Fire Lilligant or something.
    atomicllamas likes this.
  2. Magcargo 2

    Magcargo 2
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    Hurricane's only has a 15% chance to 2HKO Slowking if Stealth Rock is not factored in. Even with Stealth Rock, it only has a 49% to 2HKO it due to its low accuracy.
    EDIT: My bad. I misunderstood complete legitimacy
  3. SilentVerse

    SilentVerse Into the New World
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    Except Magmortar also has to predict to hit Slowking with Thunderbolt on the switch, while Moltres can just spam its ridiculously spammable Hurricane to hit whatever comes in hard. Magmortar is still a good wallbreaker for sure, but the fact that it requires a lot more prediction to gain something that could probably be just as easily achieved by Moltres with some luck makes it, imo, sort of outclassed. Honestly, when I play stall, I tend to find Moltres so much more difficult to answer because at least you can outplay Magmortar; Moltres is just going to hit whatever switches in ridiculous hard, which means that more often than not, unless I carry a dedicated counter like Lanturn or Regirock, I have to hope that Moltres misses some crucial Hurricanes in order to not lose something to it, whereas with Magmortar I can often just switch around until it dies from Tspikes. Because of that, Magmortar is fine in mid / low B imo.
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  4. Laurel

    Laurel Pain is only temporary
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    I just want to add something to the discussion Moltres vs Magmortar. I'm not sure if this has all already been said... SV seems to have covered most, but Tres is a beast compared to Magmortar. Yes, Magmortar can also hit stall, and has a slightly more diverse move pool and is less weak to rocks and electric-type attacks. However, Moltres does everything Magmortar does and better. It has a healing move in roost, so it can actually still do serious damage to your opponent even if they have rocks up. Also, as everyone said it can just spam Hurricane without prediction, which Magmortar requires. Furthermore, Moltres can run a variety of sets, Magmortar is much more limited. Occasionally you run into a sub Magmortar or if you're playing RU Creativity Mortar the Explorer [I had to]. However, Moltres can run phazing sets, toxi stall sets, specs sets, you name it. In addition, it's faster, and overall has better defensive stats. I think the only advantage Magmortar may have is more accurate coverage moves and less weak to stealth rocks. It also cannot be slept... lol. However, that does not mean it is a bad pokemon it just is not as good as Moltres and IMO I disagree with moving it up.

    Also, I think Absol is a good pokemon, but not Mid A worthy. Thoughts? Perhaps it should be moved to Low A.
  5. Celever

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    Absol was only in Mid A? I assumed it was Top A, but on second thought Mid A works well.

    In this bulky metagame Absol is actually quite good at being a frail powerful nuke. It has the ever so annoying Sucker Punch+Pursuit combo that everyone hates, great coverage with Fire Blast and Superpower and is an overall great Pokemon. This isn't a long post since Absol is very simple: Great revenge-killer, immune to Psychic so can sometimes get switch-ins and trap, can also function as a Choice Scarf, though not very well, has good coverage. Flaws being it's slight 4MSS and obvious frailty, but I think his positives are so good he belongs in Mid A.
  6. Laurel

    Laurel Pain is only temporary
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    Absol is very frail and has trouble switching in to anything. Most pokemon that carry Psychic that it might want to switch in on, Mesprit, Uxie, Slowking, all carry a status move, and the the former two have u-turn. It needs Pursuit + Sucker to even be usable, and thus lacks coverage. It can run a mixed set, but then it's even more frail and suffers from lack of power on the physical side. The only set I'd ever consider is Dread Plate / LO honestly. This might sound stupid but it traps Psychic types... some of them. What else does it do really.
  7. Molk

    Molk tfw zoroark
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    Alright i'm going to make one update today, although i'd like some more discussion on Pokemon such as Lilligant, Absol, etc before making any changes there. It should also be taken into account that if both Lilligant and Absol move up and down respectively, that mid A rank is going to be pretty barren, which might show that we've overrated/underrated some Pokemon that might belong there (maybe maybe not, just something to think about). As for the Pokemon themselves, i'm pretty neutral on both, but if i form a solid opinion i'll be sure to post

  8. TROP

    TROP [02:45] <~Molk> i have a personal hatred for druddigon
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    lol. Those fire blasts don't really need investment to KO what they need to (steelix, escavalier, and tangrowth along with hitting ferro without taking iron barbs damage). I want to know how it lacks power on the physical side when even the fire blast absol uses 252 attack with a positive attack nature, mixed absol is no weaker than any other absol set when it comes to physical attacking. And inb4 silly tbolt gimmicks, only target you are realistically hitting harder is mola who is beating Absol anyway. Psycho Cut gets the job done against Poliwrath and Qwilfish most of the time with the added bonus of hitting standard Amoonguss and the mighty Throh/Gurdurr harder. Loss of "bulk" on something with 65/60/60 defense is never going to matter because it won't take more than a hit from anything stronger than scald Mola.
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2013
  9. Laurel

    Laurel Pain is only temporary
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    It needs investment to kill Tangrowth even with SR it's not guaranteed. You're also required to run life orb over dread plate which really whittles down your HP.

    0 SpA Life Orb Absol Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tangrowth: 307-361 (75.99 - 89.35%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    124 SpA Life Orb Absol Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tangrowth: 354-419 (87.62 - 103.71%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

    You need 124 SpA to guarantee the kill, and that is a Tangrowth with 0 SpD investment. In return, an offensive Tangrowth can KO with Leaf Storm, and a defensive one can put Absol to sleep. I also have run a ton of SpA to hit a Lilligant trying to set up since Molk hyped it to heck (as it deserves). However, yeah Fire Blast can't even OHKO Lilli LOL. It's weak w/o investment tbh imo. I understand the argument it kills what it needs but meh. I just don't love it. It's also really slow :c
  10. TROP

    TROP [02:45] <~Molk> i have a personal hatred for druddigon
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    lol serious? the Fire Blast should be used after Tangrowth absorbs any hit, not before, Night Slash+Fire Blast easily KOs tangrowth attempting to switch in, which is all it needs to do. And who cares if fire blast doesn't ohko Lilli(it will have a quiver dance boost before you even attempt to use fire blast anyway) when Sucker Punch does that 75% of the time after sr(realistically it always kills because lilli won't be above 85% most of the time), and Night Slash/Superpower come really close.
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 23, 2013
  11. Laurel

    Laurel Pain is only temporary
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    I was talking about Growth that comes in after Absol kills something. People have done it vs me and it just KOs back or sleeps and heals with regen etc
  12. atomicllamas

    atomicllamas Pope Druddigon the 420th
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    Sorry Laurel, but I am going to have to disagree with you about Absol, the mixed set is absolutely potent at what it is supposed to do, lure physical walls while maintaining the ability to pick off fast threats with sucker punch. It has the strongest priority in the tier (possibly the game?), decent mixed attacking stats, and a lolsie ability. So many Steelix, Tangrowth, and Escavalier think they can switch in on Absol with impunity only to be KOed by Fire Blast (or damaged beyond repair in the case of Steelix). Then there is the fact that dread plate Absol is also really good in this meta with all of the Uxie and Slowking running around the tier. I don't think I can see something that functions simultaneously as a revenge killer and (either) a lure/wallbreaker or a trapper as any lower than Mid A. Absol should stay.
  13. Laurel

    Laurel Pain is only temporary
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    Fine :(

    Can someone explain to my why Duosion is high C? I have not seen a single one since the hail ban.
  14. ScraftyIsTheBest

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    Yeah I'd agree with everything said about the Absol matter, it's one of the best offensive Dark-types that can be pretty dangerous. Trop and atomicllamas hit the nail on the head with it imo.

    Also, Molk has a post as to why Duosion is Top C.

  15. EonX

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    Yeah, Absol is p. damn frail, but the fact that its main set (All-Out Attacker) can revenge kill and clean regardless of the moves chosen is really cool. The last slot (Fire Blast and Pursuit) gives it added offensive utility depending on what your team needs more. Fire Blast ruins physical walls and lets Absol fill in as a wallbreaker while Pursuit lets it play deadly mindgames with some of the top threats in the tier (Slowking, Uxie, Mesprt, etc.) thus allowing it to be an effective offensive trapper. I've only had a chance to use it recently as I had never really had a way to fit it onto my other teams, but it works amazingly. Definitely deserving of its spot in Mid A and it should stay there.
  16. Molk

    Molk tfw zoroark
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    After thinking about it for a bit and throwing the idea around on irc, does anyone else think Spiritomb might fit a bit better in mid A than top A? Of course, Spiritomb is a really good Pokemon, theres no denying that, but i think it has a few key flaws that prevent it from measuring up to threats such as Durant, Moltres, Sigilyph, etc, that might make it fit a little bit better in mid A rank with Mola, Absol, Lilli, Tang, etc. Spiritomb's offensive sets are pretty solid and give more offensive teams a good Pursuit trapper and check to Ghost, Psychic, and Fighting-type Pokemon, but in my opinion it suffers a little bit from redundant offensive coverage (Dark- and Ghost-type moves hit essentially the same things, and Spiritomb doesn't really have any fighting moves or anything outside of Hidden Power. This can be quite annoying at times, and this redundant coverage leaves Spiritomb a bit vulnerable to Steel-types such as Aggron, Durant, and Klinklang, that can come in on anything but Will-O-Wisp and pose an immediate threat. The latter two run Lum Berry and Substitute quite a bit too, respectively, meaning they can shield themselves from even Will-O-Wisp. Outside of this redundant offensive coverage, many of Spiritomb's good offensive moves are either weak (Shadow Sneak and Pursuit if the opponent stays in) or situational (Sucker Punch only works if the opponent Attacks, free switch in for the opponent if used at the wrong time) which is also really annoying, especially on say CBtomb where being locked into any of these moves can be terrible. As for the defensive sets, they're also very solid and hold quite a few Stall teams together, but even this Spiritomb varient has some flaws. First and foremost, Spiritomb lacks any method of reliable recovery outside of Pain Split and Rest, both of which have drawbacks, making it somewhat easy to wear down over the match with repeated hits/entry hazards damage. It should also be noted that while Spiritomb has no type weaknesses and3 immunities, it has a lack of important resistances to work with, making it somewhat hard for it to wall things outside of the Normal, Fighting, and Psychic-types its built to check, as it takes neutral damage from pretty much anything else and has trouble recovering off that damage before it ends up KO'd. Idk, maybe its just me, but i feel these flaws are enough to take Spiritomb out of top A rank and into mid A rank.
  17. Worldtour

    Worldtour left: Hitmonchan right: rest of RU
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    I agree with Molk, but I also have a Pokemon that I don't think deserves Top A, and that's Mesprit. I know SilentVerse briefly brought this up, but I want to elaborate on my position.

    Is there truly a set that is making Mesprit a metagame defining threat? Even many of the Top A Pokemon are some of the most threatening sweepers in the metagame or some of the best supporters, and when I think of Mesprit, there isn't anything that I think "jeez this variant (or two) is really hard to deal with." I mean, looking at the other Top A Pokemon, Sigilyph is perhaps the ultimate stallbreaker in the tier due to Magic Guard, Moltres requires you to have Stealth Rock up or get wrecked, Qwilfish is hands down the best defensive spiker in RU, Smeargle is (probably) the best offensive hazard user in RU, Rotom-C is in many ways the best scarfer alongside Emboar, and Durant and Gallade set a high standard for physical attackers in the tier thanks to their high power + set up moves. Mesprit doesn't really have a "focus" per se, and the only one in Top A (or even S for that matter) that has a rank attributed to having a ton of sets is Gallade and maybe Uxie, and even then there are definitely distinct sets that I think of as very good (any Swords Dance set for Gallade, Support and SubCM for Uxie). As a result of not really having one of "those sets", I don't really keep Mesprit in mind when I am teambuilding, and I don't seem to have problems with it most of the time. When I DO have a problem with Mesprit its usually the SubCM set because it dodges Sucker Punches. But here's the thing - SubCM is less threatening than Uxie's similar set due to having less bulk and less speed, resulting in bad things such as Entei being able to outspeed and OHKO it.

    I also really think its versatility is really overrated. Unless you are playing with that honestly pretty bad Choice Band set, every Mesprit will have a STAB move, Thunderbolt, and/or Ice Beam. The other moves it may have are Stealth Rock, Calm Mind, U-turn, Trick, Healing Wish, or a Fire move. While this is certainly quite a field to work with, it really means Mesprit has nothing to prevent itself from being trapped by Spiritomb, it loses to Escavalier unless it is carrying HP Fire + Specs or a Fire Gem, it still can't really do anything about its speed issues unless it is holding a Scarf (which I don't think is that great of a set), gets destroyed by Sucker Punch (a very common move) unless it is using SubCM, etc. It also cannot really do much about special walls without carrying Psyshock, which really is a trait every Psychic-type can call their own. In most situations I would rather use Sigilyph as a Calm Mind user or all-out attacker thanks to its higher speed, Magic Guard, and similar coverage as well as instant recovery, while Mesprit only really has the bulk and some extra utility moves to call an advantage. And yet Sigilyph is in the same rank as Mesprit. I don't think Mesprit's occasional utility moves don't bring it enough to make it on a level equal to it.

    I respect it has utility, but I think Mesprit is a Low A due to a lack of general dangerousness with one particular set, something I really think holds it back from being a threat. Mid A is the highest I'm willing to accept, but its definitely not up there with the other Top A mons imo.
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  18. ScraftyIsTheBest

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    While I don't necessarily agree with Mesprit in Low A, I could see Mid A being a good fit for it. It's still capable of doing a lot for a team, it can set up Rocks or attempt a sweep with CM, and it's pretty versatile in the sense of what roles it can fill. I've been using a SubCM Mesprit to great success, and it has some good power to it and Sub allows it to dodge Pursuit from Escavalier and Spiritomb, I'd honestly say I like SubCM Mesprit better than SubCM Uxie, tbh. It's a capable offensive threat with CM or Specs, and honestly although it usually runs Psychic STAB+Ice Beam+Thunderbolt a lot, that's some pretty good coverage it's got in that moveset, and Ice Beam is imo pretty awesome to do some hefty damage to Druddigon (one of the best Pokemon in the tier). 80 Speed also isn't that terrible, so mesprit still can do pretty well.

    I could agree with moving it down from Top, but I feel Mid A probably seems better than Low imo.

    I agree with Spiritomb for Mid A though. A big problem with it imo is its lacking coverage; this is a problem given one thing; it lets Escavalier and Durant in for absolutely free; which is pretty bad. Also, CB Tomb has a major problem with Sucker Punch's shakiness, and many things can go wrong when using CB Sucker Punch, not to mention Shadow Sneak is weak as shit. Spiritomb has nice defenses, but it has the problem of abysmal HP (like a lot of Ghosts, such as Cofag and Dusclops in UU), and no reliable recovery wither. Mid A fits it well.

    I might come back with some proposal later, for the record
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  19. EonX

    EonX One of a Kind
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    Spiritomb: Yeah, I'm agreeing with Molk on this one. The biggest downfall Spiritomb has is its lack of coverage on Steel-types and the fact it has to resort to Will-O-Wisp to threaten them in any way. Otherwise, Molk and Scrafty p. much covered my thoughts on this one.

    Mesprit: I really don't think Mesprit should be Low A. That said, I do believe Mid A to be a good fit for it. It has a lot of versatility and each set on-site (bar CB) is p. good with the proper support. It's coverage is really good since the only common Pokemon that easily beat it are Spiritomb and Escavalier (TBolt does a number on Durant and Uxie has no real way of touching it). Otherwise, everything gets hit decently hard, including Druddigon, Slowking, and Sceptile getting hit for super effective damage. There isn't one set that's incredibly dangerous, but there also isn't one set that is really terrible either (again, sans CB)
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  20. Worldtour

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    Uxie can learn Thunderbolt too - the only real difference in their offensive movepools is Ice Beam. I would argue that it is better at taking on Durant than Mesprit actually, considering Uxie cannot be OHKOed by anything other than an CB X-Scissor after Stealth Rock and then use Thunder Wave to pretty much shut down Durant. Lum variants avoid this but cannot OHKO Uxie. Neither should be staying in anyway since Durant is way faster than both, but Uxie has an equal if not better chance against Durants. Uxie typically shuts down Sceptile anyway with Thunder Wave or can eventually beat it with Psyshock on CM. It can hit Druddigon hard, yeah, but Sucker Punch is extremely potent and does a number against Mesprit (about as much as you're doing back to it with Ice Beam) unless you are using SubCM. SubCM doesn't really dodge Pursuits, as its still super effective and probably backed up by a Choice Band - like I said it does dodge Sucker Punches well but SubCM on Uxie I still think is usually better due to bulkier substitutes, other than immediate power which is not as important.

    Ice Beam really isn't that important tbh. Most Grasses dont like Psychic and Dragons other than Druddigon are somewhat uncommon and probably get mostly 2HKOed by Psychic other than Dragonair and Zweilous. You cover Flyers with Thunderbolt and the only Ground-types in RU are Rhydon and Golurk. It's nice coverage vs Golurk Druddigon and Lilligant but I wouldnt call Ice Beam amazing additional coverage.
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2013
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  21. ScraftyIsTheBest

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    Uxie still is weaker though, and needs boosts. Not arguing that it's worse, uxie is obviously the better mon since it's a hell lot bulkier. We shouldn't even be arguing about this anyway at this point, obviously Mesprit is mid A material at best, of course it can't lay claim to the best at any role but it does well at what it needs to do. So let's all stop pls :)

    Speaking of Uxie, I think it should go back to Mid S. It's still imo a great support Pokemon, and its bulk and support movepool are really good. It provides great support with SR, T-Wave, etc. and can keep momentum intact with U-turn. It can also set up Sunny Day, Rain Dance, and TR, and is pretty bulky and reliable to get that job done. Thunder Wave is also fucking amazing to cripple faster threats that might threaten your team, and in general uxie is a really good support mon. It's also somewhat versatile and SubCM is pretty neat too. The only problem is it's weak and has a bad Dark weakness, but that's only keeping it from Top S imo. I think it should move back up to Mid S, feel free to disagree though.
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  22. DittoCrow

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    Mesprit has always been extremely underwhelming for me since its lower defenses get in the way of taking on Fighting-types. I also hate to stack Psychics because that makes me Pursuit weak, so I never really use Mesprit because I like my Psychic-type to be able to deal with these threats more reliably. It's also annoying that it doesn't even have a 50% chance to OHKO lead Druddigon with an Ice Gem-boosted Ice Beam. I also agree with Swamp-Rocket's points.

    Also I want to bring up moving Zangoose to Mid B. Zangoose gets manhandled by many of the top threats. Quick Attack is pretty weak, so it can't beat most faster threats like Durant, Emboar, and Rotom-C. It's also beatable by really common threats like Kabutops, Escavalier, and Spiritomb and worn down very easily by residual damage and stuff like Alomomola + Steelix. It's hard for Zangoose to do well in this meta so it should not be anywhere near A Rank.
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  23. Molk

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    Alright, going to make a few updates.

    I'm someone who has quite a bit of experience with Zangoose from that RMT i made a while ago and all, but i haven't used it in a while, so i'll have to test it out again and see how it is in the current metagame. I just want to point out though that Escav has to be really careful switching into Zangoose, as non boosted CC+toxic boosted CC 2HKOs Escav after Stealth Rock before it can do much of anything, and after a Toxic Boost even facade gets an easy 2HKO after Stealth Rock, making it a bit harder to switch in on goose with escav than it looks. (it can definitely come in after a KO and Pursuit though, although it'll still be taking a major beating from CC).
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2013
  24. col49

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    I'm inclined to agree with DittoCrow on the matter of Zangoose, and if I may take it just a step further, I think that some of the other currently high-ranking vanilla Normal-types (specifically Tauros, Cincinno, and even Kanga :[ ) should be brought under a degree of scrutiny; while I won't say that these Pokemon are no longer "good", I've observed in play that they are not quite as effectual as they once were. Tauros, while still a dangerous 'mon in its own right as a cleaner, isn't nearly as effective a core-breaker as it once was, as dedicated stall builds now see spdef 'tomb and alomomola nearly as staples, while balance is found toting golurk and qwilfish (who, while not taking eq / zen headbutt well, does severely impede it via intimidate pivoting), as well as previously unseen sets such as occa berry escavalier, to check tauros quite comfortably. kanga, while my friend and forever viable in my book, took a nice hit when offense stopped being the omnipresent playstyle (going back quite a bit :x ), especially since Kanga comes awfully close to being "dead weight" against many common stall builds, since the combination of steelix+alomomola disrupts kanga's ability to wear down normal-type checks / counters while effectively preventing them from receiving Wishes. While certain elements managed to "level out" his worth (answers to Normal-types for balance are either quite easy to wear down like rhydon / esca, beaten because of Scrappy like golurk / rotom-n, or are just "throw qwilfish at it", kanga still donks smeargle offense, etc.), it never really fully recovered to the level of feasibility it was once at. As for Cincinno, I won't lie, I've always considered it a rather sub-par 'mon; it doesn't quite core- or wall-break without significant hazard support (and at that point I'm wondering why I'm not just running Tauros), its efficiency as a offensive utility thanks to a ton of multi-hit moves is so often either overshadowed by a wholly better 'mon or so niche that it rarely is useful, and so many staples of common archetypes just inherently handle it comfortably (esca / magnets / drudd [rough skin hurts yo] / tangrowth are all there for balance, steelix / bulky ghost of choice for stall, tons of priority / durant / the fact that nothing gives it a switch-in opp for offense, etc.). I will acknowledge that the current state of the metagame favors cincinno much more than it has in quite a while (grass-type coverage is much more relevant for momo / golurk, 'tomb > missy on stall is a plus since it can 2hko after sr most times), the fact that it gets pressured heavily by so many different mainstays of the tier just really deters me from considering it on most teams. What's more, all of these 'mons have to account for TSpikes on one level or another now, something they haven't had to do for quite a while until now. Not to say they aren't bad or anything, just that they have become less effective in the current metagame (imo), and I feel as though that should be represented here accordingly. I won't put any kind of a grade on it, since I'm no good at those sorta things, so I suppose you could consider this "food for thought", and those of you who are better at this sorta thing can gauge for yourselves whether my points are valid / where they belong.

    Sorry for the poorly organized clump of thoughts, really need to organize my thoughts when I post haha
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  25. Molk

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    Alright, just going to let everyone know that i'm probably going to make some updates tommorow depending on any discussion we might get. (I would've done it today but downtime and all ;-;). Anyways, here are some of my comments on Zangoose and my current standing on it.

    So after testing Zangoose a bit, i've found it just as effective as ever when it comes to demolishing slower teams once it gets going because of its huge amount of raw power between STAB Toxic Boosted facade, Close Combat, and Night Slash. For reference, Toxic boosted Zangoose's Facade is a little bit stronger than CB Druddigon's Outrage, and thats with a neutral nature! definitely very strong and worth the teamslot if you can activate the orb. So i don't think that it should move down too significantly to like mid/low B, but i honestly wouldn't be against moving Zangoose down to Top B rank. Zangoose may be incredibly strong, but it is admittedly held back by its fraility. Because of it's mediocre base defenses and lack of resistances, activating Toxic Orb can be challenging on occasion, especially against teams with a lot of heavy hitters, as it can be a pain to get Zangoose into the match (usually i use Volt Switch and send Zangoose after a KO/switch, double switch, switch it in on a weak attack from a defensive Pokemon, or revenge kill a weakened threat, i've even switched it directly into a Toxic a few times!). On top of this, even if Zangoose takes a hit and its Toxic Orb activates, it's still a timer that can be worn down pretty quickly if you're not careful, which can be annoying especially when you're short on HP and need that raw power for multiple turns. So overall, while goose is still a powerful and effective Pokemon, these flaws could be enough to justify a drop down to Top B rank, but i don't think it should be moved down further.

    I'll give Kanga a try too now that i have a few teams built around her :].
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2013

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