1. The moderators of this forum are Jellicent, Bedschibaer, and Lutra.
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.
  3. Click here to ensure that you never miss a new SmogonU video upload!

Gen 5 The RU Viability Ranking Thread

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by Molk, Oct 5, 2012.

  1. Molk

    Molk Godlike Usmash
    is a Tutor Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2011
    Messages:
    4,176
    Alright, going to make a few updates.

    I'm someone who has quite a bit of experience with Zangoose from that RMT i made a while ago and all, but i haven't used it in a while, so i'll have to test it out again and see how it is in the current metagame. I just want to point out though that Escav has to be really careful switching into Zangoose, as non boosted CC+toxic boosted CC 2HKOs Escav after Stealth Rock before it can do much of anything, and after a Toxic Boost even facade gets an easy 2HKO after Stealth Rock, making it a bit harder to switch in on goose with escav than it looks. (it can definitely come in after a KO and Pursuit though, although it'll still be taking a major beating from CC).
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2013
  2. col49

    col49
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2011
    Messages:
    1,955
    I'm inclined to agree with DittoCrow on the matter of Zangoose, and if I may take it just a step further, I think that some of the other currently high-ranking vanilla Normal-types (specifically Tauros, Cincinno, and even Kanga :[ ) should be brought under a degree of scrutiny; while I won't say that these Pokemon are no longer "good", I've observed in play that they are not quite as effectual as they once were. Tauros, while still a dangerous 'mon in its own right as a cleaner, isn't nearly as effective a core-breaker as it once was, as dedicated stall builds now see spdef 'tomb and alomomola nearly as staples, while balance is found toting golurk and qwilfish (who, while not taking eq / zen headbutt well, does severely impede it via intimidate pivoting), as well as previously unseen sets such as occa berry escavalier, to check tauros quite comfortably. kanga, while my friend and forever viable in my book, took a nice hit when offense stopped being the omnipresent playstyle (going back quite a bit :x ), especially since Kanga comes awfully close to being "dead weight" against many common stall builds, since the combination of steelix+alomomola disrupts kanga's ability to wear down normal-type checks / counters while effectively preventing them from receiving Wishes. While certain elements managed to "level out" his worth (answers to Normal-types for balance are either quite easy to wear down like rhydon / esca, beaten because of Scrappy like golurk / rotom-n, or are just "throw qwilfish at it", kanga still donks smeargle offense, etc.), it never really fully recovered to the level of feasibility it was once at. As for Cincinno, I won't lie, I've always considered it a rather sub-par 'mon; it doesn't quite core- or wall-break without significant hazard support (and at that point I'm wondering why I'm not just running Tauros), its efficiency as a offensive utility thanks to a ton of multi-hit moves is so often either overshadowed by a wholly better 'mon or so niche that it rarely is useful, and so many staples of common archetypes just inherently handle it comfortably (esca / magnets / drudd [rough skin hurts yo] / tangrowth are all there for balance, steelix / bulky ghost of choice for stall, tons of priority / durant / the fact that nothing gives it a switch-in opp for offense, etc.). I will acknowledge that the current state of the metagame favors cincinno much more than it has in quite a while (grass-type coverage is much more relevant for momo / golurk, 'tomb > missy on stall is a plus since it can 2hko after sr most times), the fact that it gets pressured heavily by so many different mainstays of the tier just really deters me from considering it on most teams. What's more, all of these 'mons have to account for TSpikes on one level or another now, something they haven't had to do for quite a while until now. Not to say they aren't bad or anything, just that they have become less effective in the current metagame (imo), and I feel as though that should be represented here accordingly. I won't put any kind of a grade on it, since I'm no good at those sorta things, so I suppose you could consider this "food for thought", and those of you who are better at this sorta thing can gauge for yourselves whether my points are valid / where they belong.

    Sorry for the poorly organized clump of thoughts, really need to organize my thoughts when I post haha
    Celever, Magcargo and Worldtour like this.
  3. Molk

    Molk Godlike Usmash
    is a Tutor Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2011
    Messages:
    4,176
    Alright, just going to let everyone know that i'm probably going to make some updates tommorow depending on any discussion we might get. (I would've done it today but downtime and all ;-;). Anyways, here are some of my comments on Zangoose and my current standing on it.

    So after testing Zangoose a bit, i've found it just as effective as ever when it comes to demolishing slower teams once it gets going because of its huge amount of raw power between STAB Toxic Boosted facade, Close Combat, and Night Slash. For reference, Toxic boosted Zangoose's Facade is a little bit stronger than CB Druddigon's Outrage, and thats with a neutral nature! definitely very strong and worth the teamslot if you can activate the orb. So i don't think that it should move down too significantly to like mid/low B, but i honestly wouldn't be against moving Zangoose down to Top B rank. Zangoose may be incredibly strong, but it is admittedly held back by its fraility. Because of it's mediocre base defenses and lack of resistances, activating Toxic Orb can be challenging on occasion, especially against teams with a lot of heavy hitters, as it can be a pain to get Zangoose into the match (usually i use Volt Switch and send Zangoose after a KO/switch, double switch, switch it in on a weak attack from a defensive Pokemon, or revenge kill a weakened threat, i've even switched it directly into a Toxic a few times!). On top of this, even if Zangoose takes a hit and its Toxic Orb activates, it's still a timer that can be worn down pretty quickly if you're not careful, which can be annoying especially when you're short on HP and need that raw power for multiple turns. So overall, while goose is still a powerful and effective Pokemon, these flaws could be enough to justify a drop down to Top B rank, but i don't think it should be moved down further.

    I'll give Kanga a try too now that i have a few teams built around her :].
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2013
  4. ss234

    ss234 bop.

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2012
    Messages:
    778
    Zangoose for low B sounds good. Any decently strong hit and zangoose dies, and while yes it hits like a truck its p damn easy to check since quick attack is weak and as previously mentioned any decelty strong neutral attack will kill it. The reliance on activating toxic orb also hampers it. It's a gr8 wallbreaker, no denying that, but it has some big flaws.

    Kangaskhan should prolly be low b too, mainly because its just so damn easy to wall. Escavalier, durant, steelix, rhydon-all very dangerous pokes that can switch in almost for free, since kanga's coverage simply isn't strong enough against these mons. It does wonders against heavy offense, thanks to fake out and sucker punch, but the fact is it is very easy to wall and that imo prevents it from being A rank.

    Tauros tho is solid A imo. That combination of coverage, power, speed and surprising physical bulk is fantastic and makes it a huge threat against common offensive teams. The fact that its very difficult to wear down thanks to the lack of lo recoil also helps. Tauros isn't particularly easy to wall either-the special fire coverage stops steelix, esca and tangrowth ruining it.
  5. Molk

    Molk Godlike Usmash
    is a Tutor Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2011
    Messages:
    4,176
    Alright, time to updates, just going to do the Zangoose and Kangaskhan moves for a while, although the other Normal-types are still up for discussion ofc, i'd like to bring up cinccino in particular though since quite a few players have called it overrated as of late despite its high usage.

  6. EonX

    EonX One and Only
    is a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributoris a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    May 27, 2011
    Messages:
    2,480
    Cinccino: Ok, I can see the intrigue in this thing. It has Skill Link, a STAB multi-hit move, and Bullet Seed to hit Rock-types. It also has U-turn to scout for checks and counters. However, there are two types of Pokemon it is absolutely powerless against: Ghost-types and Steel-types. Spiritomb is one of the most common Pokemon in the tier and it absolutely shits on Cinccino. It can Will-O-Wisp it or just smack it with Sucker Punch / Foul Play. Ferroseed is one of the more common defensive Pokemon and it just laughs at whatever Cinccino tries to do. Iron Barbs also makes Cinccino commit suicide if Ferroseed switches in on a Tail Slap (it's like 62% in passive damage plus possible LO recoil and hazard damage) If Ferroseed doesn't float your boat, there's Escavalier, Steelix, Aggron, and even Durant that you can use. The first 3 can take anything and Durant only comes close to fearing CB Rock Blast. All 4 of these Pokemon can then just use Cinccino to either launch powerful attacks (Escavalier, Aggron, and Durant) or use it as setup bait (Steelix and Durant) It's also incredibly frail and gets outsped by Sceptile, Swellow, and p. much any Scarf user in the tier. Priority also screws it since it's so frail. I feel it should move down to Low B since so many of the Pokemon that can handle it are fairly major threats in the current metagame, but any move down for it would be nice I guess.
    Magcargo likes this.
  7. azureleaf17

    azureleaf17

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2010
    Messages:
    173
    I think that people calling Cinccino overrated may not be using it in the best way. Though I love Cinccino way too much (I think I've used it on every RU team and most of my UU teams as well) and may be biased toward it, I don't think I'm overstating its worth on a team. 3 moves with Skill Link-assisted 125 base power (one of which receives STAB with good neutral coverage), all of which can break through Substitutes and Focus Sashes, is very good.

    Notice, though, that while this fire power is "very good," it's not "great." 95 base Attack, while slightly above average, can be underwhelming, and Cinccino's not going to be decimating teams by itself anytime soon.

    I mainly use the Life Orb set. Coupled with 115 base Speed, Cinccino can clean up weakened teams or damage the opponent's team at the beginning of the round for its opponents to clean up later. Though Steel-types and bulky Ghost-types give it problems, U-turn allows it to get out of that situation and immediately switch into a counter. (I've tried using Aqua Tail before as listed on the site, but it only gets a 4HKO on Steelix at full health, barely has a chance to 2HKO Aggron with Stealth Rock up, and ekes out a 3HKO on OFFENSIVE Klingklang, unless you're something like Banded or Adamant Life Orb; these are the only that Aqua Tail is used for, and I usually like U-Turn to leave defeating these three to its teammates.) This is probably the BEST counter to Focus Sash leads in NU; though it's a niche (dedicated leads with Focus Sash are pretty rare), that's not its only job. Cinccino's ability to do good damage quickly throughout the game along with its aforementioned ability to break through Substitutes and Sashes gives it an invaluable and almost unmatched niche in the lower tiers.

    Choice Band is a very fast hole puncher that gives up the ability to switch moves for more power. It hits much harder than most people would expect, and its well above average Speed helps a lot. Choice Scarf seems really popular, though this is the set I find rather underwhelming because it loses the ability to switch moves offered by Life Orb and the power granted by both Life Orb and Choice Band, both of which it really needs on top of a Jolly Nature to make sure it work. Adamant Scarf is usually the way to go, though, at which point it becomes the fastest commonly used revenge killer in RU.

    B+ rank sounds perfect for Cinccino. It's not strong enough to really be a sweeper, it's very predictable, and there's no way for it to set up (and it's most likely to be too frail to do so even if it could), but it's a very good at offering offensive support for teammates.

    *go cutemons*

    ~EDIT~ I realized I spelled Cinccino's name wrong about half the time I used it. I can't even spell the name of my favorite Pokemon in RU >.<
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2013
  8. Energy

    Energy formerly Laurel
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2010
    Messages:
    2,561
    Crawdaunt should be low B:

    Pros
    - Adaptability
    - Three viable sets
    - Sets up on common pokemon, slowking, uxie, etc
    - Great coverage stabs resisted only be Ferroseed
    - Base 120 attack
    - Plethora of resistances to common types (Fire, Water, Psychic)
    - One of the few good set up sweepers

    Cons
    - Awful defenses
    - Hard walled by Tangrowth, Momo, and Ferroseed
    - Easily revenge killed [Mach Punch]
    - Bad speed tier [but it's actually not that bad]

    Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the RU metagame, but have just as MANY notable flaws that prevent them from being top tier threats. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be as effective as higher ranked Pokemon in RU. C rank Pokemon tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon.

    (Cannot believe I never noticed that typo)

    What is Daunter's competition? The only other Dragon Dance user is Fraxure and it can only run one set. It also is walled by the same things, and Crawdaunt has a chance at getting past Steelix.

    What are Daunter's many notable flaws? Yes it is weak to things like Mach Punch and Scarfed pokemon that can revenge it, but they do not need that much support to be removed, and Mach Punch is only common on 4 pokemon (2 are also in C). Furthermore, the common scarfers, mainly Rotom-C, gets destroyed by an unboosted Adamant crunch.

    252 Atk Adaptability Crawdaunt Crunch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rotom-C: 156-184 (64.73 - 76.34%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    I understand Crawdaunt has flaws, but I think it's pros mitigate them. It's power really cannot be under estimated, it easily sweeps with it's handful of checks removed, and really that doesn't not require much support. Moltres kills every one. :)
  9. Worldtour

    Worldtour aka Swamp-Rocket
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2010
    Messages:
    1,474
    Its not only Choice Scarf Pokemon. Accelgor, Aerodactyl, Swellow, Sceptile, Cinccino, Scolipede, Archeops, Tauros, Durant, and Galvantula can also revenge kill it at +1 and almost all of them OHKO it (except maybe Aerodactyl and Tauros) Adamant DD gets revenged by even more stuff, including Manectric, Sigilpyh, Typhlosion, Jynx, Scyther, Electivire, Primeape, Sawsbuck, and Charizard all of whom can in fact OHKO it. 55 is enough to outpace walls, yeah, but its not enough to sweep anybody with a few fast things in the wings, and even then a lot of Qwilfish can speed creep + Taunt it. Getting walled by Tangrowth and Ferroseed is kinda annoying too (although it does set up on mola!)

    It's defenses also don't really make it make use of its resistances. Most Fire moves 2HKO or even OHKO Crawdaunt and its slower than all the common Fire-types. I guess a cool merit is it sets up on Slowking but even then you don't want Crawdaunt to be paralyzed, Scald burned, or even hit by a Specs Surf which kinda hurts. This also makes CB and a Special Attacker suffer a bit from not being very fast and not being able to take a hit, making them rely a lot of prediction (both are cool sets though). Most Psychic types get Thunderbolt or an alternative STAB to wreck Crawdaunt, and only Slowking (maybe Mesprit?) often carries Specs or a Scarf.

    imo it has just as many pros as cons. But being revenge killed by so many unboosted Pokemon is really annoying when it can't take a hit from the large majority of them, because you got a lot of things that can stop a Crawdaunt sweep. I would prefer it to stay in Top C. SubDD can do work but you need to be careful about a ton of the tier post and pre boost.
    ss234 likes this.
  10. EonX

    EonX One and Only
    is a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributoris a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    May 27, 2011
    Messages:
    2,480
    First of all, Swamp-Rocket , yes, Mesprit does commonly use Choice Specs (3rd set on its analysis) and also Scarf from time to time and it's pretty dang easy to catch Crawdaunt with TBolt or U-turn. Anyway, I digress

    Crawdaunt: Agreeing with S-R on this thing, but I'll take it a step further. Crawdaunt has way less utility than the other various Dark- and Water-types in the tier. Because we all know about Slowking, Samurott, Kabutops, and Omastar, I won't cover the Water-type side of the argument. However, there are plenty of Dark-types in RU. Absol can wallbreak more effectively and it can even double up as a revenge killer with STAB Sucker Punch. Spiritomb can spinblock with its secondary Ghost typing while also having a neat supporting move in Will-O-Wisp to cripple physical attackers for its team. Drapion may not be that great, but it has TSpikes as well as Taunt and usable bulk to make setting up a bit easier. Heck, even Skuntank can be an effective Pursuit trapper thanks to its moderate bulk, good typing, solid power, and decent Speed. Crawdaunt doesn't have any of these forms of utility. It needs to boost its Speed to even have a shot at sweeping and its defenses aren't all that inspiring. Sure, it has powerful STAB moves, but Poliwrath and Ferroseed wall its STAB combination and both are pretty decent defensive Pokemon. (although Ferroseed does need to carry Seed Bomb) I think it needs to stay in Top C due to what S-R brought up as well as these other things.
  11. atomicllamas

    atomicllamas but then what's left of me?
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a defending SPL Champion
    RU Co-Leader

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2013
    Messages:
    4,168
    I'm on my phone, so sorry if this sucks, but I was the person who originally pushed for crawdaunt to be high C, and it's flaws are just as notible as they were before. Mainly it is too slow even after a boost and it has the defenses of a wet paper towel. Don't get me wrong it is a cool mon, I've tried band daunt with tailwind support and it wrecks souls, but it requires a lot of support, as it can't switch into anything really. The meta hasn't changed at all since it was dropped to high C, so this comes back to SilentVerse's point about people rank inflating mons they have used. Crawdaunt should stay high C, not because it is a bad mon, but because it requires a lot of support, or a very favorable team match up to function at all.

    Edit: anyone else think high A is too generous for Smeargle? The meta game is so prepared for sleep inducers, and in spite having access to literally every move, it only has like 2 usable sets, with very similar counters. Low/Mid A may be a better choice for how it functions in the current meta.
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2013
    Nozzle likes this.
  12. Magnegun

    Magnegun

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2012
    Messages:
    32
    I agree with Cinccino for Top B. While Cinccino is by no means a potent death sweeper, an excellent 115 speed and respectable 95 attack along with a 125 powered STAB Basically leave Cinccino as a very effective clean up mon. Once all it's resists are gone, this thing hits fairly hard, being able to potentially OHKO defensive slowking after rocks and always KO after 3 layers of spikes (With no rocks.) Cinccino is not without problems, it tends to get screwed over by moderately fast scarfed mons and steel types, but being able to OHKO top tier threats like Moltres, Kabutops and sceptile and obligatory neutral coverage with normal stab leave me to think Cinccino is perfectly where it is, perhaps even Low A but i'm not fussed.
  13. Molk

    Molk Godlike Usmash
    is a Tutor Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2011
    Messages:
    4,176
    I'm not going to make any updates at the moment because there hasn't been that much discussion on the proposed Pokemon, but i'm actually here to make a proposal myself about a Pokemon that i think should be on the list (low on the list of course, but it still deserves a spot imo). This pokemon is Shedinja. (don't laugh :x)

    Shedinja has been shunned by most competitive battlers for quite a while despite its great number of immunities because of its vulnerability to passive damage, especially entry hazards, which actually OHKO it upon switch in, but after playing around with a Shedinja team i was lent by another player, i found that while it definitely needed quite a bit of support to function (this team had natu to keep hazards away which actually worked the majority of the time), it was quite an invaluable team member provided with this support. When hazards can be kept off the field, Shedinja's immunities make it quite the annoying Pokemon to deal with. Its immune to both U-turn and Volt Switch, allowing it to stop Pokemon trying to use these moves cold with a bit of prediction (especially choiced ones!) to avoid random hidden powers and other coverage moves then use a dry baton pass to grab momentum for its own team while the opponent is most likely forced out. It can check several big threats such as Durant, Escavalier, Medicham, Shell Smash Omastar and many more too thanks to its immunities to all but a few coverage moves they could possibly use (Rock Slide Durant mainly)! Escavalier has pursuit to hit Shedinja in theory, but it can't Pursuit Sheddy as it comes in because of Pursuit mechanics, dry baton passing lets it get away from Escavalier safely if Pursuit is used, if Escav is locked into any other move it can just go ahead and burn it. Shedinja just doesn't set there after walling something either, it has a decent base 90 Attack to work with along with a decently powered STAB move and priority in Shadow Sneak, Will-O-Wisp to inflict burn and slowly wear down bulkier Pokemon, and a slow Baton Pass to help you gain the switch advantage. Of course, as mentioned before to be able to do this at all Shedinja needs quite a bit of support: ways to get rid of hazards such as Kabutops and Natu are pretty much required (although spinning isn't too hard compared to other tiers), and Pokemon that can reliably take on the Pokemon that can hit Shedinja super effectively need to be covered. Provide that though, and Shedinja can be quite the cool win condition and pivot, and deserves a spot in somewhere around High D rank imo, but no higher.
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2013
    ScraftyIsTheBest and ryan like this.
  14. ryan

    ryan
    is a Tutor Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Battle Server Admin Alumnusis a Smogon Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2012
    Messages:
    7,109
    Posting real quick to support Shedinja for D-rank. It's obviously pretty support reliant as well as a bit prediction reliant (though the better you know the metagame, the easier it is to use Shedinja for sure), but with some pretty big support from teammates, it can be really useful for an offensive team. With its slow Baton Pass, Shedinja can come in against something that can't touch it, force it out very easily, and pivot into something to check whatever comes in to beat it. This also allows for passive damage against Shedinja's checks, which helps to eliminate them later on in the match. The coolest part of a team with Shedinja though is the good Pokemon that you get to use alongside it. Moltres and Scyther are both really great Pokemon that both really hate Stealth Rock, but with so many preventative measures for Stealth Rock, it usually won't be up on your side to begin with. Shedinja is honestly more of a support Pokemon than anything else; using an offensive SD set is a really bad idea because of how easy it is to force out, but using it for the momentum it creates can be really valuable. Definitely not a top-tier Pokemon by any means, but certainly worthy of D-rank.
  15. atomicllamas

    atomicllamas but then what's left of me?
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a defending SPL Champion
    RU Co-Leader

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2013
    Messages:
    4,168
    I'm gonna throw my hat in the ring to support Shedinja for high D (<-- wtf kind of saying is that). It is actually super annoying with a slow baton pass meaning if you support it correctly, it will gain you a shit ton of momentum, while having support moves like will-o-wisp, or decent attacking options like STAB shadow sneak (watch out for dragon oO. Also it is super annoying when the opposing shedinja dodges 1/1 will-o-wisp and 4/5 stone edges, smh.
  16. electricwolf

    electricwolf

    Joined:
    May 19, 2013
    Messages:
    13
    I'm not a veteran but I've been playing quite a few RU matches over the last few days, and here are my (likely incorrect) opinions.

    I've never been up against a Moltres that made me re-evaluate my team. It might have great stats but that SR weakness is pretty crippling. If I don't completely fudge my predictions then I've usually got SR up in the first few turns which is 50% off it's health. If Druddigon is in on good health then I can usually Dragon Tail it out so that it'll die when it next switches in and if one of my mons is in bad health then I just let it die and bring in something that can usually OHKO Moltres.
    I have time and time again found in matches that my Magmortar set forces very easily predicted switches, such as people expecting a tbolt, switching to Quagsire and getting HP Grass'd.
    Whether or not it's how my team is built, I would not swap Magmortar for Moltres.

    4 attacks E-belt Eelektross is incredibly versatile, especially if you go mixed. I've seen plenty of people switch in Steelix after an Eel Superpower only to get a Flamethrower OHKO. At times I wish it had more bulk or speed but it does a great job, with amazing coverage and I've never really needed to change it for anything else. In an average match it gets between one and two kills because most people do not expect it to have 4 coverage moves. Quite a few people have lost Durants to the fact that they forget that Eel has flamethrower.

    Aerodactyl is great for the fast Taunt, Stealth Rock and because people usually predict it to have Edge/Quake. Having a predictable set is actually great because you can really surprise people when you don't have the standard set.
  17. EonX

    EonX One and Only
    is a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributoris a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    May 27, 2011
    Messages:
    2,480
    Shedinja: I'd go for High D on this thing. My thoughts have p. much been covered already, but it is a neat niche Pokemon. Certainly not amazing or a top tier Pokemon, but it can work for you if you give it the support it needs (which is a lot, but eh, that's why it should only be D rank, right?)
  18. Omfuga

    Omfuga

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2012
    Messages:
    1,279
    Basically agreeing with what Molk said. Shedinja has a total of 12 immunities (including an immunity to volt-turn) and is left untouched by almost half the tier! I gave him the team he was referring to, and with natu and spinning support shedinja almost always gets a chance to shine. Natu works really well with volt-turn (which the team has), shedinja supports the volt-turn with baton pass, and overall a lot of pokemon that can stop the momentum are left helpless at getting their own momentum by being walled by shedinja attempting to use u-turn or volt switch. Shedinja can also use protect to utilize scouting for random moves, etc. If you choose not to use baton pass, you can use swords dance and sweep some teams with a surprisingly decent 90 base attack stat. All in all, shedinja is really good at walling a lot of stuff, but needs a shitton of support to work and still has quite a few weaknesses (dark, ghost, fire, flying, rock)
    trc likes this.
  19. SomeDrunkRockLee

    SomeDrunkRockLee

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2012
    Messages:
    175
    One pokemon which isn't ranked at all and I feel should be is Zwelious; while somewhat outclassed by Drudiggon, who carries all important priority, better bulk, and lacks misses from hustle, Zwelious boosts the strongest outrage in the game (actually, I'm not sure this is still true with Kyurem-B running around, but still, it's more powerful than Rayquaza), powerful enough to get KOs that Druddigon, specifically banded variants, would otherwise struggle with. Additionally, Zwelious has the lovely advantage of being able to be used beside Druddigon; after luring in and heavily damaging physical walls, Druddigon can sweep much more effectively. Zwelious is a particularly good partner for Druddigon on Drag/Drag/Mag style teams, where he can power though opposition and open up a chance for Druddigon to shine.

    So, what tier should Zwelious be? My first inclination would be mid C rank; Zwelious has several "notable niches" in the RU metagame, possessing his unbelievably strong outrage and working as an efficient psuedo-supporter who aids Druddigon. Zwelious can facilitate the tanking of one of the most powerful and dangerous threats in RU, which is amazing in its own right.

    However, Zwelious is not without flaws; he possesses far less bulk than Druddigon, forcing him to only weaken a few threats before he falls to faster, powerful attacks. He also doesn't appreciate the extra weaknesses, allowing Pokemon like Gallade and Durant to force him out and use him as set up fodder. Lastly, Zwelious struggles from the slight chance that, due to hustle, his attacks can miss.

    While somewhat outclassed by Druddigon, I believe Zwelious has a definite niche in the RU tier.
  20. atomicllamas

    atomicllamas but then what's left of me?
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a defending SPL Champion
    RU Co-Leader

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2013
    Messages:
    4,168
    Umm Zweilous is already mid C...
    Energy and Celever like this.
  21. Celever

    Celever

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2012
    Messages:
    3,365
    Here is my problem with Shedinja, and it's something you've been saying all along: Shedinja requires a hell of a lot of support and he can do well. So can Farfetch'd. I've been playing with Farfetch'd in NU recently and you can get a sweep going letting Ninjask set up a bunch of speed boosts and a few Swords Dances. That's one pokemon support, Shedinja requires a rapid spinner, some resists for the various types it is weak to etc. etc. and a whole team must be built around it. Yes, the same can be said for Riolu, but Riolu actually has a fantastic niche in RU. Unless you wanted to because, "lol it's shedinja", why would you consider using Shedinja? The only thing I can think of is stalling the other team to death with a hell of a lot of resistances thanks to wonder guard, but Shedinja has terrible defensive typing anyway and most Pokemon in RU run coverage moves that beat it, for example the Fighting-Type Pokemon such as Hitmonlee use Stone Edge or Rock Slide, some Grass Types such as Lilligant or Sceptile run Hidden Power Rock. Flying-Type Pokemon are also quite common in RU and there is Absol who uses Pursuit all the time, and he is incredibly good and common. The sad thing is that teams could run a Fighting, Grass-with-HP-Rock, Flying-Type AND Absol-or-Spiritomb to some fair success depending on the last couple of Pokemon you choose. My point is that to use Shedinja you have to want to use Shedinja, you need a hell of a lot of team support which could be said about anything AND the types Shedinja is weak to are really common in RU. Leave Shedinja unranked.
    ss234 likes this.
  22. Lasagne

    Lasagne

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2013
    Messages:
    2,962
    apart from that team that popped up recently for shedinja, nothing has changed about it. It is still a terrible Pokemon and I don't know why people are suddenly bandwagonning for it to be moved up. Yes, it stops voltturn. Whoopee. Yes, its immune to a bunch of types. That's the whole POINT of shedinja. It requires an insane amount of support, to the point where a whole team had to be made around it for it to be even remotely viable. there were three ways to stop hazards being set up. If that's not too much support then I don't know what is. Shedinja is still terrible, and simply shouldn't be used unless you're a cheater like molk. Stay in e rank you useless bug
    Celever and Nozzle like this.
  23. SomeDrunkRockLee

    SomeDrunkRockLee

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2012
    Messages:
    175
    Oh really? I must of must have missed it while scanning over it... I used ctrl-F too and didn't find it lol...

    Maybe because I was spelling it wrong D:
  24. Worldtour

    Worldtour aka Swamp-Rocket
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2010
    Messages:
    1,474
    i agree with Celever. The thing about Shedinja is that 90% of the time I see one, I am not kidding when I say every member helps it in some way, even if its subliminally. I mean, when you are required to use a Natu to make it work, you've gone too far at that point. With support anything can work, and Shedinja is truly a gimmick at best an the amount of support it needs makes it only work on a team 100% focus around it and only it. Almost every single common threat beats it easy as well - other than Uxie all of the S-Rankers and almost all the A Rankers, have ways to easily dispatch of Shedinja. Keep it in E, its not worth it.
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2013
    Celever likes this.
  25. Omfuga

    Omfuga

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2012
    Messages:
    1,279

    The second you compared it to farfetch'd your argument was completely moot. Farfetch'd is a horrible pokemon regardless of what kind of support you bring to the table. Even so, no matter what support you gave it it would be a worse generic flying-normal type than every other one in the tier anyway. Also, the reason people want shedinja to be a D+ in the first place is that it needs so much support. Shedinja also has a niche that literally no other pokemon in the whole game-- not just the RU tier-- can fulfill. If shedinja didn't need to worry about spikes or stealth rock obviously it would be much higher such as a B or an A, but the whole reason they're attempting to make it a D+ is due to the fact that its massive necessary support is a hindrance.
    trc likes this.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)