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Gen 5 The RU Viability Ranking Thread

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by Molk, Oct 5, 2012.

  1. Celever

    Celever

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    I will go through your 2 points sepeately.

    "Farfetch'd sux".

    I know that Farfetch'd is a terrible Pokemon, however it can still work with a hell of a lot of support. Replace Farfetch'd with Shedinja and you basically have a description of Shedinja. The whole point of the comparison is that Farfetch'd actually needs less support from Shedinja in a way, one-Pokemon support in Ninjask, and it can sweep against the right team match up. Shedinja can't boast this, as it also needs a Rapid Spinner, type resists, lures, rest of the team etc. etc.. Also, "it would be a worse generic flying-normal type than every other one in the tier anyway" is something that I understand, however look at all Bug- and Ghost-Type Pokemon ranked on the tier list:
    The lowest Bug-Type Pokemon is Ninjask, and the lowest Ghost-Type Pokemon is Dusknoir. Both Ninjask and Dusknoir are better than Shedinja; this doesn't mean that Ninjask and Dusknoir are good, it means that Shedinja is worse.

    Ok for your second points I'm not quite sure you know how this system works. We are not ranking every random Pokemon, we're not going to have Ponyta and Happiny in Low D at some point, we are ranking Pokemon that are good, possibly better than just viable. D is for the odd Pokemon that have odd niches, such as Natu or Ditto, Low D is for the Pokemon who generally fail to give the support but the team isn't built around them, the majority of D-Rank Pokemon are support Pokemon. Ninjask, Natu, Audino and Dusknoir for example, these don't have teams built around them, they are part of the support a team uses. In fact, no Pokemon on the rankings has a whole team built around them besides Riolu, who actually has a pretty low-risk high-reward strategy if you can use it correctly. Shedinja can boast none of these things, and thus should not be ranked. Also, saying that without a hazards weakness Shedinja would be A or B rank really shows that you have no idea what's going on...
  2. FAJI

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    So a pokemon with 12 resistances doesn't have a "odd niche"? Shedinja can shut down some of the most dangerous sweepers in this metagame such as Omastar, Durant as most don't run Rock Slide now, SubCM Uxie, Klingklang and this list can go on. Also you mentioned Absol can easily pursuit trap but what if its sash is still intact? Your absol will get straight OHKOd. We all know shedinja isn't a godlike pokemon but when used correctly it will probably be the most one of the most annoying mons you have ever played against. All in all shedinja does have a good niche in this tier, ye it needs some support but i doubt you have played a shedinja team being used correctly. It can come in on choiced locked pokemon and just get a HUGE momentum boost on your side with baton pass. Spinning isn't too hard to do in this tier as Kabutops can beat every ghost 1 on 1 and makes it so easy to get rid of hazards which obviously shedinja appreciates. I say Shedinja for High D because of it's shit ton of immunites, can stop some of the a lot of the deadly sweepers in this metagame and it can get your team a huge momentum boost when needed.
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2013
  3. Celever

    Celever

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    What exactly are the resistances, though?

    Normal, Fighting, Poison, Ground, Bug, Steel, Water, Grass, Electric, Psychic, Ice, Dragon.

    Of those, types with at least 2 notable users of them in RU:

    Normal, Fighting, Ground, Water, Grass, Electric, Psychic (forgive me if I'm being a little harsh here).

    That's 7 immunities in all. Sure, that looks pretty good, but it is weak to:

    Flying, Rock, Ghost, Fire, Dark.

    Of those, types with at least 2 notable users of them in RU:

    Flying, Rock, Ghost, Fire, Dark.

    Plus, it is weak to all residual damage, hazards feature on most teams so that may as well be a type on its own... and so does residual damage like Toxic or Scald. Count both of that and Shedinja essentially has 6 weaknesses, or types it is weak to. You then need a Pokemon to account for all of these. At a glance, that would be a team such as:

    Shedinja, Steelix, Kabutops, Spiritomb, [filler] [filler].

    This covers all of the types decently, as well as a spinner. Now that's all well and good, but then what does Shedinja even do? Terribly weak Shadow Sneaks akin to a 0- Attack Spiritomb? Using it's masterful X-Scissor to dent the Grass-Types who will KO it anyway? Shedinja's only niche is having a bunch of immunities, 7 of which are useful and then having almost as many weaknesses that will certainly KO it with most of those types featuring as coverage option on other Pokemon anyway. By that I mean:

    Fighting, Ground and sometimes Normal and Grass Pokemon use Rock-Type coverage.
    Manectric and Grass Pokemon use Fire-Type coverage.

    This means that, as a whole, Shedinja walls a total of:
    Show Hide
    Accelgor
    Clefable
    Cryogonal
    Electivire
    Ferroseed
    Galvantula
    Klinklang
    Lanturn
    Poliwrath
    Quagsire
    Qwilfish
    Uxie

    13 Pokemon in RU, not even considering residual damage they may set up or inflict. Considering that, 7.

    This is of course common sets.

    Now, there are so many more than 13/7 Pokemon in RU. Some teams won't even feature any of these, particularly as most of them are incredibly uncommon (Quagisre? Poliwrath? Clefable? Klinklang?). There is 1 S-Rank threat in this, Uxie, who is a support Pokemon anyway. From memory, everything is else is B-Rank at best except for Qwilfish, who is another Support Pokemon. So this is this apparently amazing Pokemon, one who can wall 5 obscure (Accelgor, Clefable, Electivire, Galvantula, Klinklang) Pokemon and Uxie all the time, a variety of other Pokemon sometimes and ever more if you get lucky with the sets they are using.

    Shedinja doesn't have a good enough niche to be placed in D-Rank, leave the thing rotting in E.
  4. FAJI

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    I clearly stated Shedinja builds huge momentum for your team when it comes in on a mon it can shut down. No one here has said that shedinja is a powerhouse, people that support shedinja are arguing the fact that it can build huge momentum and it can shut down deadly set up sweepers. Also, why are you listing the mons it walls when its clearly situational. What if lets say Rotom-c (which isnt on the list of what gets walled by Shedinja) is locked into Volt switch. What do you do? You're forced to switch out as the Shedinja simply baton passes out and gets a huge amount of momentum. You're not taking choice items into account which is what Shedinja loves coming into the most.

    I'm sticking with my word and saying Shedinja for High D
  5. Celever

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    Well sure, choice items are fine and all but then you realise what choice users use: Aggron uses Head Smash, Rotom-C uses HP Fire. In fact, most choice users have some kind of coverage Shedinja is weak to which, with some good prediction, can leave you one Pokemon down. Plus, you said it yourself, Shedinja is situational. This isn't a set which can be situational, this is a whole slot on your team that only works against certain kinds of certain Pokemon. I get that he can work, but then you have to acknowledge that the rest of the time it doesn't. And by the rest of the time I would give 90% of the time at least.
  6. Turtleye

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    Don't forget Uxie and Qwilfish run Toxic sometimes.
    Celever likes this.
  7. atomicllamas

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    K in all honesty though, this makes shedinja viable, lets say the opponent has ultimate glue mon Emboar, the only move it can use is Flare Blitz as it risks being walled if it uses anything else, making Druddigon or Slowking even better switch ins than usual as emboar won't want to risk using a move that is completely walled. Also lets not pretend rotom-c always runs HP Fire, I rarely use it, I would be much more worried about a defensive rotom-c with will-o-wisp tbh. Plus the fact that Shedinja is immune to Volt Switch (and U-turn!) means that it will be a annoyance even to choiced mons that do have coverage. Shedinja if supported properly and played correctly generates more momentum than any other pokemon, and while it requires a shit ton of support it isn't that big of a deal given that Kabutops is a great spinner and the extra support you put into keeping hazards of the field allow you to abuse other shit like Moltres or Scyther with no excess support. Shedinja deserves to be High D, no one is saying it is amazing, but it has a definite niche, and it shouldn't be written off because it requires a lot of support. Comparing Shedinja to Farfetch'd is ridiculous when Shedinja actually generates momentum, completely walls at least 20% of the meta game, and has sweet support moves like will-o-wisp to annoy mons that can't do shit to it (outrage locked Druddigon comes to mind).
    soulgazer likes this.
  8. soulgazer

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    As someone who used the Shedinja team everyone talks about to smash Molk and ladder, I want to support Shedinja for Top-D. This little bug generates a ton of momentum on your side and can easily let you have the control on your opponents with big range of immunities. Of course Shedinja needs quite a lot of support to work perfectly, but it will work extremely well when you give it the support it needs.
  9. Punchshroom

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    I wonder why Sheddy isn't ranked at all in NU, but actually considered for a rank in RU? Is it because RU has better spinners? I dunno about you but Sheddy kinda fears for its life wherever it turns: that Durant may or may not have Rock Slide, that Slowking may or may not have Fire Blast, you can't stop Grass-types without fearing Leech Seed or some sort of Hidden Power....and it just so happens that some Pokemon you do wall can set up hazards in your face: Druddigon, Qwiflish, Accelgor, Roselia are such examples. I get that the ton of immunities + slow Baton Pass can generate momentum, but why rank it here just for that instead of other tiers (like NU)?
  10. atomicllamas

    atomicllamas look who's diggin their own grave, that is what they all say
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    Well one, Shedinja is probably more viable in RU than it is in NU due to the fact that Kabutops can actually spin, and two I don't see why the hell we care about Shedinja's rank in the NU viability rank in this thread. Maybe it is underrated in NU, or maybe it is the fact that it is often used by shit players as a gimmick (seriously seen one without a spinner, lol) that make people instantly dismiss the bug. However, the fact that good RU players like Molk, Wepwnemon, and Omfuga are trying to push for a certain rank should give you a hint that it actually is good and not just a gimmick used by shit tier players (I have seen it in action). Molk went like 35-1 with Shedinja, and I think it is funny when people who hardly play RU, and definitely have never played with or against (a good player using) Shedinja come into an RU thread and argue about it's placement.
    soulgazer, Energy, FAJI and 1 other person like this.
  11. DittoCrow

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    He's just questioning the viability which is completely justified, especially considering that it's being nommed for the lowest rank which arguably doesn't even matter. All of the mons in D Rank are things I would never consider using and it's just there to show gimmick mons or ones that are outclassed. Personally I don't think we need to add more things to the lowest rank, but since it doesn't actually matter I don't see a problem with just putting it there. In all honesty, there are a shitton of other NU mons that can be added there but are barely viable, which is why some people want to stay away from adding mons to D Rank.
  12. Punchshroom

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    The reason why I bothered listing Sheddy's ranking in NU and RU is because I wanted to know what makes Sheddy better in RU than NU, and if it's frankly worth it. So far it seems like it's not even because of its performance in battle that is better in RU, it's the support it gets (mainly spinners), and it still needs a lot of maintenance to keep alive to stop an ambiguous number of threats, where they are either at your mercy or you are at theirs. Fucking Lopunny would look better in RU imo because the meta seems slower and a bit more defensive than in NU (less stuff demolishes it and more stuff suffers from item loss / being Choiced), but no one is nomming it for D (please don't).

    Edit: Let's also not forget the incident where Seaking of all things was nominated for C or something. Just wanted to keep stuff like that from happening again.
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2013
  13. atomicllamas

    atomicllamas look who's diggin their own grave, that is what they all say
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    This is such a bad argument, lol, Lopunny has no niche in either tier (barring cat teams), where as Shedinja has the same niche, with no competition in both tiers, so yes the RU meta is more friendly to Shedinja, but it does so without replacing its niche. If Lopunny had 12 immunities (including volt-turn) and access to a *slow* baton pass and will-o-wisp, it would very well qualify for the viability rankings, but it doesn't have any unique traits that make it worthy of a rank (unlike Shedinja who does have unique and valuable traits at the cost of needing a lot of support).

    As for the Seaking thing, thank you for proving my point, one person nommed Seaking and after other people tested it they said, "No it isn't viable." In this case however people who have played with it (and actually know what they are talking about) are saying it is more viable than previously thought, and people that haven't played with it or observed it, *cough* you *cough* are saying it shouldn't be ranked cause, "der, it isn't ranked in NU," as if that has any bearing on Shedinja's viability in RU.

    This is a replay I found of Molk's team vs a decent (1926 ACRE) player. http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ru-56007340

    Shedinja certainly wasn't dead weight in this match, even after being tricked a scarf. There are other replays as well, but many of those are vs terrible players.

    As for DittoCrow's post, no there is nothing wrong with questioning why something is being ranked, but I do have a problem when their argument involves viability in a different tier, and he could have read the 5 or so posts above it if he actually wanted to see why it was being discussed. It also bothers me when someone brings up meta irrelevant stuff like rock slide Durant, when it is Durant's third best coverage move after STABs (Superpower and Thunderfang are far more relevant), meaning that after STABs, Hone claws, 2 coverage moves, substitute and baton pass, Durant's 8th best move kills Shedinja... if it hits... twice. Also the final question in Punch's first post makes no sense to ask.

    Why not rank it NU, when it is (probably) going to be ranked in RU? Cause they are 2 different metas, with viability threads ran by two different groups of people, like not only was that question irrelevant, its answer was also pretty obvious.

    Just a point I'd like to make, Alomomola and Tauros are higher in the RU viability than all of NU's S ranked mons (Tauros is in the same viability rank too), that alone should tell you that the Meta games are too different to compare x in one tier to x in the other.
    Nozzle likes this.
  14. Worldtour

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    You can make any Pokemon work with the right support though. For instance, I could make Raticate work by using the puny niche it may have, but that doesn't mean it should be ranked. Similar thing goes for Shedinja. Shedinja walls a few S-Ranked mons (Jynx, Samurott) in NU and its still not ranked. Shedinja also fears some variant of almost every A-Rank Pokemon.

    Druddigon can Mold Breaker, Rough Skin, Flamethrower, Sucker Punch, or set up Stealth Rock
    Slowking can Fire Blast
    Entei can Flare Blitz or Stone Edge
    Sceptile can Hidden Power Rock
    Emboar can Flare Blitz
    Escavalier can Pursuit
    Kabutops can Stone Edge
    Uxie can set up Stealth Rock
    It walls most Durant
    Gallade can Shadow Sneak, Night Slash, or even Will-O-Wisp
    Moltres can Hurricane or Fire Blast
    Qwilfish can set up Spikes or Taunt it.
    It walls most Rotom-C
    Smeargle isn't fair to compare to
    Sigilyph can Air Slash or Heat Wave
    Absol can Pursuit, Night Slash, or Fire Blast
    Alomomola can Toxic
    Lilligant can HP Rock/Fire
    Mesprit can HP Fire
    Spiritomb can Will-O-Wisp, Foul Play, Shadow Sneak, or Pursuit
    Tangrowth can Leech Seed, Knock Off, or HP Fire/Rock
    Tauros can Rock Slide
    Accelgor set up Spikes or HP Rocks it
    Aggron can Head Smash
    Golurk can Shadow Punch or Fire Punch
    It walls most Omastar
    Rhydon can Stone Edge it
    Rotom can Shadow Ball it

    You see where this is going? And then variants of the 3 bolded Pokemon (Rock Slide Durant, Hazard Omastars, and HP Fire Rotom-C) still beat it. Its a Low D at best but I'd leave it alone.
  15. atomicllamas

    atomicllamas look who's diggin their own grave, that is what they all say
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    First off, thanks for actually giving examples, instead of comparing its performance in RU to NU, as well as Lopunny. At first glance, this is quite the intimidating list, however:

    Not all of them are good arguments (open)
    Druddigon can Mold Breaker, Rough Skin, Flamethrower, Sucker Punch (who would attack drud, lol), or set up Stealth Rock - Definitely a challenge for Shed, sheer force and mold breaker win, but Druddigon can't kill anything with outrage, otherwise auto burn.

    Slowking can Fire Blast - 66% of Slowking carry either toxic or Fire blast, 56% carry these and aren't choice locked, Slowking is 2hkoed by X-Scissor (offensive variants by XS then SS)

    Entei can Flare Blitz or Stone Edge - Entei wins, no argument here (can't E-speed though, 60% banded)

    Sceptile can Hidden Power Rock - Sash broken, Shedinja OHKOes

    Emboar can Flare Blitz - about 70% are choice locked, predict well (on both sides)

    Escavalier can Pursuit - 56% are choice locked, pursuit is avoided via baton pass

    Kabutops can Stone Edge - Kabutops generally wins

    Uxie can set up Stealth Rock -Uxie can set rocks, but they can be spun or Natu'd
    It walls most Durant
    Gallade can Shadow Sneak, Night Slash, or even Will-O-Wisp - agreed Gallade wins, but gets burned in the process, revenge killed below 48% health (that's bulky Gallade)

    Moltres can Hurricane or Fire Blast - Yes

    Qwilfish can set up Spikes or Taunt it. - Biggest Natu bait in the tier (Barring Smeargle)

    It walls most Rotom-C
    Smeargle isn't fair to compare to - fair enough

    Sigilyph can Air Slash or Heat Wave - 2hkoed by Shadow sneak, broken sash

    Absol can Pursuit, Night Slash, or Fire Blast - OHKOed by X - Scizzor, broken sash though

    Alomomola can Toxic - Yes (more Natu bait)

    Lilligant can HP Rock/Fire - Ohkoed by X-Scizzor, but Lilligant generally wins cause sleep powder, I will agree

    Mesprit can HP Fire - It's highest super effective move (Shadow ball, lol) sees 4% usage, Rocks are the bigger concern

    Spiritomb can Will-O-Wisp, Foul Play, Shadow Sneak, or Pursuit - Outsped and baton passed away from (I would aim for just outspeeding 4 speed Spiritomb)

    Tangrowth can Leech Seed, Knock Off, or HP Fire/Rock - Yeah

    Tauros can Rock Slide - Yeah

    Accelgor set up Spikes or HP Rocks it - Spikes is trouble, offensive breaks the sash then dies

    Aggron can Head Smash - Depends on if banded (30%), but yes it generally escapes Shedinja with only a burn

    Golurk can Shadow Punch or Fire Punch - Yeah

    It walls most Omastar - Hazards from Oma are probably the worst for Shedinja, of any hazard setter

    Rhydon can Stone Edge it - (Rock Blast is worse)

    Rotom can Shadow Ball it - 2HKOed with SS, broken sash (and about 55% are choice locked)


    You can't really just list super effective moves against Shedinja, as many of these mons are choice locked, or will be killed after breaking the sash, it really depends on who switches into who, as well as their team structure, and how well both sides predict. Of course Shedinja requires a shit load of support, it has one HP, but it also performs decently well against good mons in the tier if you look beyond, "x hits shedinja super effectively with y," as the real game situation doesn't always work out that way. I also recognize that I used Natu as a counter argument for 3 of these, but it is really nice to have said support, which is why people are only pushing for high D. Also if you want to "see where this is going", Shedinja performs well against 5 of the top B mons, and adequately against 3 more depending on their sets, that may be the tier it performs best against.

    "Reserved for Pokemon that are below average in the RU metagame. These Pokemon often require very significant amounts of support with a relatively low reward compared to higher ranked Pokemon."

    Shedinja requires a lot of support, but we can all agree it has rewards to its use (definitely more than Cradily, Rapidash, and Swoobat), so it seems like high D to me.
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2013
  16. ScraftyIsTheBest

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    Kay, it's Stealth Rock time. Torterra is really good in the current metagame, and is imo one of the best tanks around; it sets up SR, which is amazing, hits hard, and has reliable recovery. The Specially Defensive set is a really good SR user right now, it sets up SR really reliably and absorbs Volt Switch like a complete boss, while being really bulky in general. It also walls Kabutops, and hammers it with Earthquake or Wood Hammer, and it can endure one Ice Beam from Cryogonal and hit it hard with Wood Hammer or Stone Edge. It also beats the non viable Sandslash as well. It's also very capable of going physically defensive, and either is good, you can tailor Torterra to your team's needs. It also has CB and RP, both of which are very viable sets, and Torterra is great at either sweeping or wallbreaking. For these reasons I'm suggesting Torterra for Top B.

    Golurk is another superb Pokemon at the moment, and is so good I think it should be RU. Anyways, it has a whole lot going for it atm. The SR set is incredibly consistent, as Golurk has so many good resistances, and can set up Rocks very reliably. It also hits quite hard with 124 Attack, great coverage, and Iron Fist, so it's no sitting duck either. CB Golurk is also absolutely incredible atm, and with just a little support and prediction this thing will very rarely fail to achieve at least one KO per game. I also like RP Golurk, and despite being wrecked by Absol, it's a very potent sweeper with its great coverage; Jolly Golurk also outspeed Rotom-C, which is just awesome. I think it should be Mid A.

    Uxie should be at Mid S imo. It is, by far, the best support Pokemon in the tier imo. It provides amazing support in SR and T-Wave, and because it's so bulky it does especially well at both roles, and although it's quite weak, U-turn means it can attract things that are usually common answers to Psychics, and U-turn right out. Uxie has an absolutely amazing support movepool; SR, T-Wave, Yawn, Rain Dance, Sunny Day, Trick Room, Dual Screens; you name it. This means Uxie can fit on many teams to fill whatever role you want it to; and thanks to its awesome bulk it will surely do that reliably. It can also run a SubCM set, and with Uxie's bulk, again, it's pretty good at setting up and can threaten both offense and defense alike. It's definitely an amazing Pokemon when it comes to support and deserves to be higher up imo.

    Also, High D-Rank looks really cluttered atm, while I'm fine with Shedinja being added, some mons like Cradily, Shelgon, Beheeyem, and Vileplume should probably be degraded to Low D because I don't think I'd ever want to use them.

    Just some thoughts.
  17. Molk

    Molk Godlike Usmash
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    Sup everyone, going to update the thread now. Didn't get to it before because of pokemon x and y and all and the fact that nothing was really proposed outside of my own proposal for Shedinja (which i actually kinda regret making :/), anyways, here's the change i'm making this update!

    As mentioned, Shedinja is definitely a pokemon that needs quite a bit of support to function well (if at all) which of course lowers its rank down quite a bit to the point where i could probably never see Shedinja above D rank. However though, if provided with this support Shedinja can be a quite useful team member thanks to its 12 immunities and ability to drypass, forcing out or hard countering various threatening Pokemon in the metagame such as Durant, Escavalier, and Omastar (or at the very least making pokemon that get mostly walled but have coverage moves to hit sheddy a bit more wary to use certain moves in fear of letting Shedinja in for free). I think Low D rank is a better fit than top D rank after some thought about just how much support the bug actually needs, but i definitely think it deserves a spot on the list.

    (By the way i also agree with clearing out top D rank a little bit, it does look a bit cluttered after all those moves :s).
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2013
  18. Magcargo

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    I honestly think we should make D-Rank a rank for "everything else" and Dusknoir. Like DittowCrow stated, we could theoretically rank every Pokemon in NU in D-Rank and apart from Dusknoir, there is nothing from RU that is D-Rank. I honestly see no point of adding a ton of NU pokemon in D-Rank when 90% of them are equally terrible.
  19. atomicllamas

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    So I think the most obvious mon that doesn't belong in top D is Cradily, I don't even really get what it does besides set rocks and slowly die (counter liepard assist teams if you are running suction cups?). It's nice it has reliable recovery, but I've always found it to be toxic bait, or easily worn down in spite of its pretty good defenses, especially since it doesn't hit particularly hard. I actually pretty much agree with the mons listed by SITB being moved down (Shelgon, Beheeyem, Vileplume) as well as suicide pony Rapidash and Swoobat, simple calm mind isn't that great of a niche when setting up is so hard. The reason I specifically targeted Cradily is that I'm not even sure it deserves to be on this list, but other people may disagree, so w/e.

    As for the above post, D mons have a (small) niche and are viable (yes even Dusknoir ;)), there was a point when E-rank was Munchlax and everything else, but there are no RU mons in E rank, so it just isn't listed. Plus why get rid of all the mons that have been agreed upon as viable, when the work to make a D rank was already put in, its not like being D rank on the viability ranking is encouraging people to use them, nor is every mon from NU viable in RU, as your post seems to imply?
  20. Worldtour

    Worldtour aka Swamp-Rocket
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    I'm posting here too much and my posts are too long :mad:

    first onto the proposals other people gave

    Torterra has a really big flaw compared to other Grass-types that really annoys me - it doesn't resist Water. As the only Grass-type in the game that has this problem, this makes it harder to place on a team than I would like, particularly not doing its job very well in a FWG core as it makes me unable to consistently check Water-types, in addition to its 4x weakness to Ice. Its pretty bulky but it doesn't have a lot of resistances, with them literally being only QuakeEdge and an Electric immunity, meaning it is unable to survive for too long vs. most powerful Pokemon. Even though Torterra can be tailored to specific needs it will then struggle against a lot of other stuff. An example is Kabutops - offensive sets are OHKOed by a +2 Waterfall, physically defensive wins, max HP depends on how many hazards there are, and semi-bulky sets risk this more and more. The inability to deal with Water-types nearly as well as other Grass-types is what makes Torterra a Mid B Pokemon imo, as it is frustrating to take that extra damage from Scald or not be able to do too much to the opponent due to getting 2HKOed before it can heal itself (assuming it sets up Stealth Rock)

    idk about Uxie. I am not really a fan on Escavalier bait (unless its a lure which inhibits its ability to do other stuff), lack of staying power or lack or resistances compared to other walls, but its bulk certainly is very valuable, alongside its speed. I always have to compare it to Slowking though, who is a similar Pokemon except slower and less bulky, but has a cool Water-typing, more initial power, Regenerator, Slack Off, and Fire Blast. Still, U-turn is really valuable, as is Stealth Rock and its brutal SubCM sets. However, at the end of the day Low S is where I think it belongs... It's kinda hard to explain directly but remember that Low S isn't bad at all.

    Golurk I do feel like is a Mid A Pokemon, however, if only for its incredible ability to consistently set up Stealth Rock. Its resistances, including Bug and Fighting (immunity) are valuable, its movepool is solid, with many coverage moves being available and boosted by Iron Fist, and its ability to set up Stealth Rock on a wide variety of Pokemon that it directly threatens makes it my go-to SR setter on a lot of my teams. There are so many Pokemon Golurk can check in the metagame, and even more that don't want to switch in on it due to its good STAB combo. Choice Band is a very good wallbreaker in general but Stealth Rock Golurk is honestly just fantastic.

    A rank I feel is more cluttered than High D is Mid B, so I want to suggest two drops for that rank.

    Piloswine for Low B

    Piloswine isn't as effective as it was before imo. It's by no means a bad tank, but it does have its fair share of weaknesses, including Water, Grass, Steel, and Fighting. With many Pokemon of these types the tier, Piloswine can struggle a bit. It also doesn't help that it doesn't get any recovery at all, not even Leftovers. Golurk, Rhydon, and other Ground-types also give it a ton of competition in regards to setting up Stealth Rock, with most being more powerful - Golurk has a better defensive typing and Rhydon has a better offensive typing, while both are able to run other sets such as Choice Band. An Ice-typing (which also provides STAB priority) is a decent niche, but its been a long time since I've seen a Piloswine do anything noteworthy that the other two could not provide.

    Feraligatr for Low B

    Gatr has a lot of competition from Kabutops and Samurott, who are often better choices. Kabutops in particular provides a lot more utility with Rapid Spin, more power with Stone Edge, and a heavier resistance to Fire that comes complete with Weak Armor. Samurott is similar to Feraligatr in many regards except that it has Megahorn, which is a valuable move for it. While Feraligatr is bulkier than both which can help it on occasion, the lack of immediate power (unless its in Torrent range, then ouch) holds it back, and more importantly, it tends to struggle with certain Pokemon a lot more than Kabutops and Samurott will. Like Piloswine its not exactly bad, but there aren't very many instances where I would want consistently use it over its primary competition.
    ss234 likes this.
  21. Celever

    Celever

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    Anyway onto all of these sudden proposals:

    Torterra for Top B.

    Ok for now I want to remember all of the hype this Pokemon has been getting lately. People have posted about in np: several times lately and I honestly think that this amount of hype could play a part in this. He can be good but from personal experience the only sets he can do well are Stealth Rocks (offensive) and Stealth Rock (defensive). Choice Band has always been kinda meh for me to be honest, and Double Dance looks good on paper but by the time he sets up he can usually be picked off by priority anyway. Looking at Mid B there are some pretty good Pokemon there (Swellow, Fraxure and Feraligatr especially) that I actually feel are better than Torterra, so I would suggest Torterra for Low B.

    Agreeing with Swamp-Rocket here that Uxie deserves Low S and no higher. Sure, he's a good support Pokemon but the things that stick out to me as downfalls are the fact that he barely has any offensive presence... and actually that one thing. Honestly Uxie might be Top A rank material but I think he is fine in Low S for now. Uxie has fantastic support options, yes, but believe it or not it receives come competition from Mesprit as a Stealth Rock setter and even Musharna as a supporter. While people see these Pokemon mediocre and therefore don't use them on certain teams (Mesprit on full-offense, Musharna on VolTurn (or I call it VolTurnPass) or on teams that make use of Swellow etc.. Uxie still is better than both of those most of the time but the interesting competition and rather lackluster offensive presence I feel stops it being top-top-tier threat, just top-tier.

    Golurk for Mid A I feel is a very interesting proposal. There are two Pokemon that give Golurk competition in this tier, I feel, and they are Rhydon and Steelix. Steelix is up in Mid A whilst Rhydon is down in Low A. Now I understand that they do different things (Golurk can also Spinblock, whereas Rhydon has stronger STABs and arguably hits other leads hard whilst Steelix has phazing) and all of them set eachother apart in different ways, however I feel all of their niches are viable enough and they are all really really good at what they do. I would like to propose Rhydon for Mid A as well as Golurk for Mid A. Another thing to note is all of these Pokemon can go offensive as well, however Steelix can't really make use of Choice Band which is arguably something Rhydon and Golurk do fantastically which is another reason for them all in the same rank.

    100% agreeing with Piloswine for Low B. Piloswine, like other Low B isn't exactly terrible but he's also not amazing either, which is pretty much Low B. He has a weakness to Fighting (in RU this is bad) and to Water (also bad in RU) and is rather slow and not incredibly powerful. Passive recovery is removed due to Eviolite and he has no reliable recovery anyway, and really has few support options. I set I would like to try out on Piloswine, though, is actually the offensive Life Orb set in RU. I don't have high hopes for it as Piloswine is rather slow but it seems to have some potential. For now, though, I think Piloswine is just Low B.

    Feraligatr should stay in Mid B OR go to Top B. Ok Feraligatr is pretty much my favourite Water-Type Pokemon in RU at the moment, and he can run a variety of sets. Swords Dance, Dragon Dance and Choice Band all sound the same however one is a wallbreaker, the other is a cleaner and the last is basically a lure. Most Feraligatr will be trying to set up so the opponent will be prepared for that which is where Choice Band comes in as a great set. The main thing I feel sets it apart from the two Pokemon you said outclass it is Dragon Dance. Both Kabutops and Samurott are unable to learn Dragon Dance, and while Kabutops has Weak Armor and Rapid Spin it acts kind of differently. Feraligatr also gets a boost to it's STAB later in the match and he has priority Aqua Jet which after a Swords Dance and Torrent can be extremely deadly. Feraligatr has arguably better coverage than Kabutops as a cleaner, with access to moves such as Crunch and Ice Punch, however he does lack a secondary STAB. He is quite bulky and with the upcoming of stall a wallbreaker is a great thing to have, and even better than that Feraligatr can set up on most walls as long as Scald doesn't burn which isn't exactly unreasonable. I really think Feraligatr is too good for Low B and that he is Top B rank material.

    Now for a couple of proposals of my own.

    Poliwrath for Low B OR Top C.

    Ok so this might seem a little harsh but what does he really have in the current metagame? He has good defenses, but bad offensive movepool and Alomomola has suddenly become the premier physical wall of RU which also outclasses Poliwrath as a Water-Type. Yes, Poliwrath has a part Fighting-Type but everyone over-prepares for Fighting-Type Pokemon in RU as they are so darn common. He can be a special wall with Scald and that is his only niche, but it's not a fantastic niche to be honest since that leaves it weak to Psycho Cut from Gallade and Medicham or the various Flying-Type is Scald fails to burn. He can phaze with Circle Throw but that is literally his only set. Circle Throw. What if you're not using a team with hazards? Poliwrath would not be a good choice. He can perform well on hazard-stacking teams but really that's Top C material at best, since often-times I see my Steelix or even Drapion phazing better than Poliwrath on those teams. Poliwrath is a fallen hero and it's time for him to take his standing out of Top B.

    Tauros for Top B/Low A

    Tauros isn't that good to be honest. Sub+3 attacks is it's best set and it has pretty good coverage, but once people realized that it was walled by Pokemon like Escavalier they started using Fire Blast on it? With pitiful Special Attack this does KO that one Pokemon but it really shows how important the team match-up is for Tauros as a Pokemon. Unfortunately I can never see Tauros on par with Spiritomb, Mesprit or Absol and I can never see it on par with Rhydon (move Rhydon up please) so I think Rhydon and Tauros exchanging places is definitely the best thing. The problem with Tauros, like I said already, is how essential team match-up is. It can't do anything to Alomomola, defensive Tangrowth, Golurk, Steelix. These are Pokemon that feature on many teams, so they are kind of hurting Tauros' viability. Miltank also has risen up and given Tauros a lot of competition lately, being able to run defensive and offensive sets almost as well as Tauros. Honestly Zangoose could be a better Pokemon because it hits much harder than Tauros and honetly I'm not sure how Tauros managed to squeeze up into A-Rank and definitely Mid A.

    Miltank for Top B

    Miltank is bulky, Miltank is fast, Miltank is suprisingly powerful. Miltank can run a whole lot of sets ranging from wall to offensive cleric to Choice Band. In all I feel Miltank's viable sets are: Wall, Cleric (defensive), Cleric (offensive), Sub Milk Drink and 2 attacks, Choice Band, Life Orb + 3 Attacks with Milk Drink. Miltank also has a few lure sets and even an offensive Curse set which I have always found kind of lackluster. Miltank is kind of like Snorlax in OU actually, most people forget about it but it keeps on doing what it does well, except Miltank has more things it can do. This sounds pretty over-hyping and I'm sure it is to be honest but I do want the word of Miltank to get out there. I personally think her best set is the offensive cleric, since it is fast enough to almost always get the Heal Bell off but unlike most clerics it has a definite offensive-presence. She also has access to three fantastic abilities in Thick Fat, Scrappy and Sap Sipper. This gives it an immunity and attack boost, especially on Grass-Types in RU where there are so many Grass-Types. Thick Fat lets it lure in Pokemon such as Typhlosion and Magmortar and smack them hard with Earthquake, but it is probably her worst ability. Scrappy is fantastic so it isn't walled by Ghost-Types on it's Curse set, and it doesn't have to use Crunch on it's Sub, Milk Drink + 2 attacks set and will be the set getting the most usage. I feel like Miltank is very versatile and is good at what it does whatever that may be, so I think that places it in Top B.

    Anyway that was a long post and you probably didn't read it all, so for tl;dr just look at the bold bits.
  22. ScraftyIsTheBest

    ScraftyIsTheBest It's Showtime! Are you ready?
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    I'm inclined to agree with Swamp-Rocket on Feraligatr, and in my opinion Dragon Dance is really only enough of a niche for it to stay out of C. Yes, Gatr can run SD and CB, but I'd consider Kabutops a lot of the time before Gatr because it has access to Rapid Spin; it also hits somewhat harder. Rapid Spin is a pretty important thing that makes Kabutops superior to Feraligatr imo; this means that as a physical Water-type, Kabutops fits more easily onto teams because it can support SR weak mons like Moltres, Scolipede, and the like in addition to sweeping. Stone Edge is also more powerful than what Gatr's Waterfall can muster. Sure, it can run CB, but again, Kabutops outshines Gatr in this regard because of slightly better Speed as well as power; it also has Superpower and Stone Edge as well as Swift Swim so it slots comfortably onto rain teams. Samurott is pretty similar to Gatr; but has Megahorn, so it can handle Tangrowth and other Grass-types far more easily than Gatr imo. Samurott also has Torrent, so it can also fire extra powered Aqua Jets at low health. I do get is has DD, but it still gets wrecked by Scarf Rotom-C after a DD boost, and sometimes it's either too weak or too slow after a boost; and of course there's Crawdaunt.

    Gatr's not a bad mon by any means but it still has to compete heavily for a teamslot as its competition has gotten more relevant these days, so Low B is fine for it.

    Piloswine for Low B sounds okay, since it's not as good as it was in the hail meta. It has to compete with Golurk and Rhydon for a teamslot in this metagame, and it doesn't bring that much to the table compared to them. It's strictly good, in all sense, but I'd still consider something else before it a lot of the time.

    Poliwrath to C is mean :(. I know it's not as good as it once was, but it's still good at what it does, and pairs up pretty well with Roselia, who can provide Aromatherapy support to wake Poliwrath up, and Poliwrath patches up all of Roses weaknesses except Psychic and Flying. It's decent at countering Absol, Durant, and Escavalier, and being able to be a Durant answer is something it has over Mola aside from phazing; Mola just gets set up on by Durant, whereas Poliwrath provides good insurance against it. Mid B is the lowest I'm willing to accept with this thing, but I think C is too much (and comparing it to Quagsire is a joke imo),

    Tauros though should probably stay where it is, and I don't care about Miltank either way although it has been annoying whenever I've faced it.
  23. FAJI

    FAJI

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    Tauros is perfectly fine where it is tbh. The reason it uses Fire Blast to beat some of it's counters such as Steelix, Tangrowth, Escavalier etc. I would use Fire Blast>Sub just so it doesn't get worn down quickly and Tauros performs amazingly in End game so it's nice to keep it around. Tauros has amazing speed for this meta as it outspeeds some of the biggest offensive threats in the metagame (Durant, Galvantula, Moltres, Sigilyph and some more) and OHKOs them with respective moves. Tauros performs amazingly against Offense. But when it is up against stall it is pretty hard to make it work as you stated it is hard walled by Alomomola and Spiritomb can take a few hits and burn also. Other then that Tauros is one of the best wall breakers in the tier even though it struggles with stall and definitely deserves Mid A.
  24. soulgazer

    soulgazer I FEEL INFINITE
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    Ok I simply don't understand how you came up with Miltank outclassing Tauros. I don't play RU as much as everyone else here, but I used Tauros quite a lot and I can easily say there's no way Miltank can do what Tauros does. Bull can outspeed a big threat named Durant and OHKO the ant with Fire Blast, and nothing enjoys taking a Sheer Force boosted Rock Climbs. It does have problem with Ghost-types, but teammates are here for this and honestly its not like Spiritomb or Absol were hard to put on a team. About it being wall by Steelix, Tangrowth and Escavalier, look at these calcs:

    4 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tangrowth: 250-296 (61.88 - 73.26%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    4 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 36 SpD Steelix: 195-231 (55.08 - 65.25%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    4 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Escavalier: 276-328 (80.46 - 95.62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    They are all 2HKO on the switch, I wouldn't say those three affect its viability since one of the best things about Tauros is how he lures them to support its team. As for Miltank itself, it is really weak and has a LOT of problems to go pass Steel-types or Tangrowth. They also have whole different niche since Miltank, from what I know, is more used to check Grass-types with Sap Sipper while having a good 100 Speed to work with. While Tauros simply does totally different things such as cleaning late game with strong Sheer Force boosted moves and surprising those physical walls with a decently strong Fire Blast.

    Wepwn's post explain better than me Tauros's role :)
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2013
  25. Celever

    Celever

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    Ok actually ScraftyIsTheBest pretty much convinced me on Feraligatr so I'll leave that.

    I know that Poliwrath to C is mean but you have to be strict here! The problem is a lot of the RU community has fixations onto Poliwrath from him being so good in other stages, but a large variety of things has prevented it from being as good as it is now. Like I said in my last post, Alomomola is almost definitely going to be the better choice when it comes to a Water-Type wall thanks to wish passing. Due to Alomomola being used now, along with Slowking being the king of RU (heh) and Tangrowth still retaining popularity there are now 3 Regenerator Pokemon commonly used in RU which means that Poliwrath still relies heavily on team matchup that the opponent won't have one of these, which is easier said than done. Furthermore the number of Grass-Type Pokemon in RU that can take it out, specifically looking at Sceptile here, is actually pretty large considering Rotom-C and Rotom-N can smash it with Leaf Storm or ThunderBolt, and Rotom-N is immune to Circle Throw whilst resisting Scald. My issue still lies in the fact that yes, he can do this niche, but most of the time you need a lot of team support to take out these counters, preferably cleric support as well, and Poliwrath is weak to many common attacking types (Grass, Electric, Psychic and Flying come to mind) and honestly isn't awfully powerful.

    "It's decent at countering Absol, Durant, and Escavalier"

    Ok I already have an issue here, it appears that you are still using the physically defensive set but honestly I see more utility specially defensively from experience using him. It's only 5 less defense but now if you want a physical Water-Type Wall you go with Alomomola.
    252+ Atk Life Orb Absol Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 139-165 (36.19 - 42.96%) -- 97.36% chance to 3HKO
    252+ Atk Life Orb Absol Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 155-183 (29.02 - 34.26%) -- possible 4HKO

    252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 187-222 (35.01 - 41.57%) -- 79.83% chance to 3HKO
    252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 169-199 (44.01 - 51.82%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    252+ Atk Choice Band Escavalier Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 141-166 (36.71 - 43.22%) -- 99.15% chance to 3HKO
    252+ Atk Choice Band Escavalier Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 276-325 (51.68 - 60.86%) -- 94.14% chance to 2HKO

    Ok so yeah it it a situational counter to Escavalier, but for the other two Pokemon Alomomola does it better. Now I know that it's whole niche is to phaze and I've already explained why that niche is rather poor in this current metagame.

    Before I move on to Tauros Top B is not bad let's be honest we'd be happy if our favourite underrated Pokemon was Top B which is apparently what Tauros is for several people.

    Tauros is perfectly fine where it is tbh. The reason it uses Fire Blast to beat some of it's counters such as Steelix, Tangrowth, Escavalier etc. I would use Fire Blast>Sub just so it doesn't get worn down quickly and Tauros performs amazingly in End game so it's nice to keep it around. Tauros has amazing speed for this meta as it outspeeds some of the biggest offensive threats in the metagame (Durant, Galvantula, Moltres, Sigilyph and some more) and OHKOs them with respective moves. Tauros performs amazingly against Offense. But when it is up against stall it is pretty hard to make it work as you stated it is hard walled by Alomomola and Spiritomb can take a few hits and burn also. Other then that Tauros is one of the best wall breakers in the tier even though it struggles with stall and definitely deserves Mid A.

    So Tauros already has 4MSS in whether to beat Steelix, Tangrowth and Escavalier or whether to not be worn down as quickly with Substitute. Tauros does have pretty great Speed, I admit, but then you have to realize that beating Durant is against situational and you already said you prefer the other attack.

    "Tauros performs amazingly against Offense. But when it is up against stall it is pretty hard to make it work"

    One Pokemon immediately shot into my mind when I read this: Kangaskhan. Kangaskhan is up there in Mid B. Tauros is similar to Kangaskhan but without the priority... but it does have more power, and arguably good matchups more of the time than Kangaskhan, but not always. Yes, I would say that Tauros is better than Kangaskhan, but not by all that much and I would like to use this as evidence that Tauros is Top B worthy.

    "Ok I simply don't understand how you came up with Miltank outclassing Tauros. I don't play RU as much as everyone else here, but I used Tauros quite a lot and I can easily say there's no way Miltank can do what Tauros does. Bull can outspeed a big threat named Durant and OHKO the ant with Fire Blast, and nothing enjoys taking a Sheer Force boosted Rock Climbs. It does have problem with Ghost-types, but teammates are here for this and honestly its not like Spiritomb or Absol were hard to put on a team. About it being wall by Steelix, Tangrowth and Escavalier, look at these calcs:

    4 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tangrowth: 250-296 (61.88 - 73.26%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    4 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 36 SpD Steelix: 195-231 (55.08 - 65.25%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    4 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Escavalier: 276-328 (80.46 - 95.62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    They are all 2HKO on the switch, I wouldn't say those three affect its viability since one of the best things about Tauros is how he lures them to support its team. As for Miltank itself, it is really weak and has a LOT of problems to go pass Steel-types or Tangrowth. They also have whole different niche since Miltank, from what I know, is more used to check Grass-types with Sap Sipper while having a good 100 Speed to work with. While Tauros simply does totally different things such as cleaning late game with strong Sheer Force boosted moves and surprising those physical walls with a decently strong Fire Blast."

    Soulgazer I didn't say that Miltank outclasses Tauros I said that it gives him competition, there is a huuuuuge difference. Yeah he can defeat Durant but honestly Substitute is the better option to use most of the time. Rock Climb is also surprisingly inaccurate, a big no-no for wallbreakers. I wrote that post with Substitute in mind since honestly since it is usually better than Fire Blast which I have said a lot. When Tauros was moved up his niche was a powerful Substitute and 3 Attacks Pokemon and I would have liked it to stay like that since that's honestly where it performs best. Before you mention it I have tried Fire Blast and it really didn't come all in handy.

    Onto Miltank I mentioned this in my post about Miltank moving up, it can run many sets one of which is the Sap Sipper set you mentioned there, but he can also use Life Orb to good effect. Something she has over Tauros is Milk Drink with her Substitute to let here recovery and attempt a clean twice. Furthermore,Tauros still only has base 100 Attack and Miltank has 80. This is quite a drop, yes, and they do play kind of differently I suppose but that's the point of competition. If one was strictly better than the other I would have said outclass, competition is where they do similar things but play kind of differently thanks to different attacks or stats which is what Miltank does. I would now like to suggest Zangoose gives him competition as well, since even though he is not quite as fast he is far more powerful. He is also worn down easily but it has similar coverage and even has priority attacks. The main difference here is a stronger STAB (even after Sheer Force) which is also more accurate and even the ability to use Swords Dance. Now the downsides are that he is much slower than Tauros and is smashed by several things hard in RU, but as a wallbreaker it is probably one of the best in the tier since it can actually break down walls -- not a Tauros wallbreaker where is can't hurt Alomomola or Spiritomb.

    252 Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Facade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 262-309 (49.06 - 57.86%) -- 53.13% chance to 2HKO
    252 Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Facade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 262-309 (49.06 - 57.86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252 Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Facade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 195-229 (48.26 - 56.68%) -- 34.38% chance to 2HKO
    252 Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Facade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 195-229 (48.26 - 56.68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252 Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Night Slash vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Spiritomb: 99-117 (32.67 - 38.61%) -- 99.39% chance to 3HKO
    (ya that's just a 3HKO so no point doing Stealth Rock)

    Oh, hey, Zangoose is Top B which is also where Miltank should be, let's have Tauros join them there!

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