The Sheer Force of Nidoking - OU CCAT

Discussion in 'BW OU Teams' started by Pocket, Mar 3, 2012.

  1. Pocket

    Pocket Nyanko Sensei >:3
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    OU CCAT presents...

    The Sheer Force of Nidoking
    [​IMG]

    Yes, Nidoking... I could not believe it either. When everybody initially voted for the Pokemon to start off the Community Create-a-Team, Abomasnow and Kyurem were clear victors. Then all of a sudden, people started band-wagoning Nidoking, and I was left dumbfounded as Nidoking find itself the ultimate victor.

    However, I am glad that it ended this way, since I would have never touched Nidoking otherwise. Nidoking proved in battles that it was no gimmick either, as even with a base 85 Special Attack, Sheer Force and recoil-free LO boost amplify its special offense to impressive proportions. Roughly speaking, Nidoking is on par with OTR Reuniclus in terms of power, but with much more versatility in its movepool with enough Speed to beat Haxorus to the punch. OU CCAT has shed light on the hidden potential of Nidoking in the OU metagame, and posters of DST have done an amazing job in creating the team tailored for this Special Nuke! I hope you all enjoy this RMT!

    Team at a Glance
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Teambuilding Process
    [​IMG]
    As soon as Nidoking was selected for CCAT, we decided against making a Smash Pass team, which was too formulaic and rigid in its team structure. Instead, we wanted to facilitate Nidoking's wall-breaking capabilities by removing the few special walls that can stall it out. We chose SD Virizion to make mince-meat out of Gastrodon and the pink eggs.
    [​IMG][​IMG]
    With an offensive duo established, we began thinking of ways to facilitate a late-game special sweep by Nidoking. We concluded that paralysis support is the answer, and thus selected bulky Rotom-W with T-Wave to provide us with some useful resistance to Bullet Punch and Ice-, Flying-, and Fire-type moves.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    A team with Virizion and Rotom-W must have a solid answer to Latias and Latios that switch in on them with ease. Reuniclus, Gengar, and Tornadus are also common switch-ins to Virizion, none of which are covered by the current line-up. We decided to use specially-defensive Jirachi, for its paralysis support, Wish healing, and the ability to counter the threats above.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    After having 4 of our teammates chosen, we began focusing on covering big threats to this team - mainly HO teams, Grass-types, and Fighting-types. LO SubSplit Gengar won our votes for its ability to not only check powerful Fighting-types and Celebi, but also for wearing down special walls for the team.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    For our final member, we desired a mon that can patch up our weakness to Sun & HO teams, and Scarf Terrakion seemed to be the best fit!
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Although it was happy times for finally completing the team, ladder play-testing quickly identified our teams blatant weakness to Haxorus, Chloro Sweepers, and SD Scizor. Many changes were proposed by awesome DST posters and even from Team Raters. We all eventually favored ginganinja's revision, which involved replacing Gengar for physically defensive CM Latias, Rotom-W for bulky Gyarados, and Virizion for Bulk Up Breloom. CM Latias has effectively patched up the team's weakness to Chloro Sweepers, while Gyarados provided solid coverage against Haxorus and Scizor. Bulk Up Breloom only solidified the newly formed defensive core, by blocking T-Waves and Leech Seed from Ferrothorn and Scald Burns and Toxic Poison from Bulky Water-types. The team is now COMPLETE.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]


    Team In-Depth
    [​IMG]
    Nidoking @ Life Orb
    Trait: Sheer Force
    EV's: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
    - Earth Power
    - Thunderbolt
    - Ice Beam
    - Fire Blast


    The star of the team - or supposed to be! More often than not the solid defensive core formed by Gyarados - Jirachi - Breloom - Latias ends up doing most of the work for the team, with Nidoking popping in to nuke a mon or two and come back out. However, I must reiterate that this thing is a powerhouse. Nothing barring Gastrodon and the pink blobs can reliably take hits from Nidoking. The Sheer Force and LO boost add up quickly, and the power augmentation allows Nidoking to go Timid to be a much unstoppable force. Nidoking is also a type of Pokemon that forces the opponent to play predictably (ie switching into a special wall or a ground-immune mon), allowing me to move one step ahead of them.

    [​IMG]
    Breloom @ Toxic Orb
    Trait: Poison Heal
    EVs: 236 HP / 212 SpD / 60 Spe
    Careful Nature (+SpD, -SpA)
    - Drain Punch
    - Bulk Up
    - Spore
    - Seed Bomb


    Unfortunately, Breloom tends to hog the spotlight away from Nidoking, since it becomes rather unstoppable once it easily accumulates a few Bulk Up after it puts something to sleep. The defensive core supports Breloom effectively by tanking strong special moves that is aimed at Breloom (Latias soaks up Fire Blast, Jirachi takes Draco Meteors, Psychic, and Hurricane, etc). Breloom in-return deals with bulky Water-types that can wear down Gyarados, Latias, and Jirachi.

    [​IMG]
    Gyarados @ Leftovers
    Trait: Intimidate
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
    Impish nature (+Def, -SpA)
    - Waterfall
    - Dragon Tail
    - Thunder Wave
    - Taunt


    Gyarados used by IronBullet's Fable Team from Excadrill's era still kicking butt. Intimidate is a priceless utility, allowing Gyarados to take repeated physical abuse. Gyarados and Jirachi form a perfect defensive duo to cover Dragon- and Fighting-types. The number of mons Gyarados checks, thanks to Intimidate, natural bulk, heavy EV investment in defense, and typing is quite impressive - DDHaxorus, DDNite, Lucario, Conkeldurr, Mienshao, Scrafty, Toxicroak, Volcarona, Darmanitan, Scizor, Metagross, Landorus, Mamoswine, Azumarill, Sharpedo, and opposing Gyarados. This guy doesn't just sit there taking punches either, as it actively disrupts the opponent with Taunt & Dragon Tail, preventing any attempt of setting up a sweep or Spikes. Taunt & DTail allows Gyarados to perform well against both defensive and offensive teams. Thunder Wave is just an icing on top of the cake to catch Rotom-W or Latias on the switch.

    [​IMG]
    Jirachi @ Leftovers
    Trait: Serene Grace
    EVs: 252 HP / 240 SpD / 16 Spe
    Careful Nature (+SpD, -SpA)
    - Iron Head
    - Body Slam
    - Wish
    - Stealth Rock


    The other third of the defensive core. Gyarados's disruption moves bait DDers to Outrage, which Jirachi easily tanks thanks to Gyarados's Intimidate. Jirachi also shrugs off special hits that Gyarados cannot take, namely Draco Meteors, Hurricanes, and STAB Shadow Balls. Jirachi and Gyarados cover each other weaknesses, and this comes in handy when passing Wishes to Gyarados. Gyarados's Intimidate and Fighting-resistance, Jirachi's Rock resistance, and Latias's Fighting-resistance let me deal with Terrakion relatively safely. Jirachi adds more paralysis abuse on top of Gyarados, and also provides Stealth Rock support.

    [​IMG]
    Latias @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 228 Def / 28 Spe
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Calm Mind
    - Reflect
    - Recover


    Latias enhances the main Gyarados - Jirachi core by tanking powerful Water- and Electric-type moves. Additional defense against offensive Fire- and Grass-types, such as Heatran, Virizion, and Celebi also eases the burden on GyaRachi (lol ugly name). This is twash's physically defensive Latias, which only takes 48% max from a CB U-turn! This Latias singlehandedly dismantles Volt-Turn combination, and unlike CM Latias with HP Fire, it does not die to TTar :D. Even with this slower, BULKIER spread, Latias reaches 263 Speed, which is enough to outpace Jolly Breloom, Adamant Gyarados, Adamant Dragonite, and Adamant Mamoswine. Moving after Terrakion can be a bitch, though. Calm Mind gives Latias the ability to sweep, but more importantly, it lets Latias to better address SpecsToed, LO Starmie, and CM Virizion.

    [​IMG]
    Terrakion @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Justified
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature (+Spe, -SpA)
    - Close Combat
    - Stone Edge
    - X-Scissor
    - Earthquake


    ScarfTerrakion serves as an emergency measure against Sweepers that happen to break past our defensive core, which occasionally happens. It is particularly important in checking HO, Sun O, and Rain O threats, such as Dragonite, Salamence, Haxorus, Lucario, Volcarona, Darmanitan, Modest Venusaur, Gyarados, and Starmie. It also checks Hydreigon well by switching into Fire Blast aimed at Jirachi. Terrakion's impeccable Atk and high-powered moves allow it to be a formidable offensive presence, despite being scarfed, and it can clean up late-game :)

    Major Problem
    Stall
    The team we have created, especially with ginganinja's revisions, really addresses most offensive threats effectively. The problem lies in defensive threats. This team is particularly vulnerable to Stall teams, since it has no wall breaking offense. CM Latias and Nidoking is worn down and defeated by special walls like Chansey, while Breloom cannot break past Skarmory or Celebi. The team before the major revision was relatively competent at wall-breaking as LO SubSplit Gengar was able to wear down Special Walls and SD Virizion was able to pack more punch immediately. There are some other smaller problems noted in the thread, but this team's problem to stall requires the most attention.

    Chloro Venusaur
    Modest Venusaur can be revenge-killed by Terrakion and ones with Sleep Powder is walled by Latias. However, Timid Growth Venusaur with Sludge Bomb can be a major nuisance to this team. It doesn't help that Breloom provides a free set-up opportunity once Breloom has put something to sleep.

    Team in Action
    replay dump (open)
    Battle Replay #1
    Sorry my log replay is old:
    Opp's team: Landorus, Terrakion, Tyranitar, Rotom-W, Forretress, Alakazam

    Battle Replay from Crona

    Battle Replay #3

    Nido Action! - granted against a team with Gallade -_-
    Opp team: Landorus - Celebi - Skarmory - Heatran - Gallade - Tyranitar


    Proposed Changes
    • Hone Claws Nidoking by ITSU
    • SubPunch Breloom by shrang
    • 236 HP / 248 SpD BU Breloom by complete legitimacy
    • Bulky DD Gyarados by NatGeo and shrang
    • Rest Talk Gyarados by NatGeo and H-C
    • Roar Gyarados by SlimMan
    • 252 HP / 32 Def Jirachi by SlimMan
    • Calm Heatran over Jirachi by H-C
    • Stallbreaker Mew over Latias by complete legitimacy and alexwolf
    • CM Reuniclus over Latias by Frog
    • SD or CB Terrakion by BKC, Jimera0, and Mortagua
    • Gastrodon and SunnyBeam Heatran over Latias and Breloom by Pocket
    Shout outs
    • skidilidy - you were probably the most active participant of this project, so thanks a lot! I really enjoyed your feedback! You also submitted Rotom-W and Wish Jirachi, which ended up into our team :)
    • ginganinja - another active participant of this project, and ultimately provided the finishing touches to the team! Your feedback is pro as always. Thanks for being a big supporter of these DST projects, ginganinja!!
    • Tomahawk9 - you blessed this project with your monster rates, 2. Thank you for investing major time and effort to our project! High quality stuff!
    • NatGeo - the original leader of OU CCAT! Thank you for inviting me as your co-leader! It has been an amazing ride :D
    • complete legitimacy - thanks for being a regular presence here and for consistently submitting votes! You also nominated SD Virizion, which was the very first partner for Nidoking :)
    • alexwolf - you nominated Scarf Terrakion, which was keeper. Thank you for also actively injecting yourself into the discussion; your thoughtful responses were greatly appreciated!
    • Axmaster68 - thank you for nominating Nidoking as our CCAT mon! I would have never had the opportunity to wield this beast without you ;D
    • SlimMan - the #1 OU CCAT stalker xP Thanks for the amazing feedback!!
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I'd like to thank everyone who have participated in OU CCAT for the past 4 months! The entire process of building this team together and receiving feedback from you guys made this a very fun experience for me. I am also really happy with the final product we came up together, and I would continue to work on this team to top the ladder :d I encourage the rest of you to give this team a go, too!

    Thanks for reading! I eagerly wait for feedback :O
  2. Darkerones

    Darkerones

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    Hmmm,solid team. just a few nitpicks.

    On Nidoking Timid is +Speed not +Spattack. Otherwise he is fine.
    A lot of other Breloom run 60 Speed Evs so adding 4 more may be really helpful.
    Gyarados seems out of place here, while Intimidate is a valuable ability for tanking there are so many better options out there,Dragonite by far outclasses it as a parashuffler and Gliscor is a far better Physical wall. Use one of those two.

    Latias should run Hidden Power Fire instead of Reflect to beat Ferrothorn and Scizor,or you can also use Surf to handle Tyranitar.

    Finally,EQ is completely and totally redundant on Terrakion,that slot can be used for a more reliable STAB instead (Rock Slide,Sacred Sword,etc.)
  3. emirinho

    emirinho

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    Hello pocket,

    Nice to see a new and fresh RMT you made. I have to say that i really cant find any flaws in the defensive core. I mean seriously, your gyarados's role is fantastic. Congrats on the Defensive structure. I know that you are now anticipating the "However" or "but" and yes it is going to come because every team can be better, so can this one.
    However :D, your offensive side seems to be weak and to have a poor coverage bar Nidoking (however he is slow). Becuase of that Virizion and Terrakion can set up on you (Breloom and sometimes even jirachi). You can even have problems with stall teams based on hazards because you don't have a spinner, but that is another issue.
    To solve the Virizion and Terrakion problem, i think there is a simple solution, Psyshock on Latias instead of Reflect. Reflect, imo, is just like a filler move so Psyshock could be inserted there.

    Now to the stall issue. I don't really see a solution to the hazard stall. However, you could try substitute over Seed bomb or Drain punch. That would help you hit the phazers harder even OHKO them because you will be under the sub with min. +1.

    I also back up the suggestion of @Darkerones for the 4 speed evs on Breloom

    Conlusion: Psyshock over Reflect on Latias
    Substitute over Seed bomb or Drain punch.
    4 more speed evs on breloom

    I hope i helped and good luck!
  4. BKC

    BKC sorrow flew on black wings
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    You've got a great defensive core here, covers pretty much the whole metagame. However, defensive cores don't break stall teams, and stall is this team's biggest problem. If you play well, you won't need to be revenging any threats, because you've got solid answers to pretty much anything your opponent can throw at you, so I'd change Terrakion's set to bust up stall - either Choice Band or Life Orb Swords Dance work well. If you don't outright kill the opponent's physical walls, you'll at least soften them up for Breloom. Anyways, as for bigger changes, I think a Forretress would work well over Nidoking. I find Nido to be the weak link of the team because he doesn't offer any exceptional synergy, and in my experience using Nidoking, he's not fast enough to be effective against offensive teams, nor strong enough to muscle past defensive teams' pink blob. Forry, on the other hand, gives you a real answer to CB Haxorus, who 2HKOs your entire team if Jirachi's not at perfect health, and will take at least two Pokemon with it before you're able to wear it down enough for it to be revenge killed. Forry also provides spin support, which is absolutely crucial when you're using Gyarados as your main physical wall, and extra layers of entry hazards - Spikes are cool because they punish your opponent for switching around too much, and your defensive core forces alot of switches. Toxic Spikes make Breloom and Latias alot more deadly because they can set up while their counters are indirectly worn down.
    tl;dr (open)
    Choice Band / Swords Dance Terrakion > current set
    Forretress > Nidoking

    just a few ideas, nice team, i like the use of reflect latias. good work CCAT people
  5. NatGeo

    NatGeo sun's coming up
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    It was a blast leading the CCAT for the first few mons, though I think personally you did a much better job than I would have ever done! I think it would only be fitting if I gave my thoughts on the team at the moment. Right now it is very solid defensively, and there really isn't an offensive threat that can break through our core, with possibly the exception of SubSD Gliscor if Gyarados is weakened. That shouldn't be a problem though! About your weakness to stall, there's not a lot you can do to fix it without leaving yourself open to some form of offense. In that regard, why not try a RestTalk set on Gyarados? You can phaze with SR up, letting you rack up damage quickly for your other teammates to sweep. You also still provide Intimidate support. That or a Bulky Dragon Dance set could also work, since you can go straight through Skarmory after a few boosts. Again, you get Intimidate support (somewhat), but you're sacrificing a bit of defensive prowess for sweeping potential. Your other teammates can help power through Skarmory, paving the way for a sweep. That's really all I have to say on that, so hope I helped Pocket!
  6. eriados

    eriados

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    Gyarados has quite a few advantages over other, more common pokemon for this team. Unlike Dragonite, Gyarados has a far superior supporting ability in Intimidate and the utility of Taunt. Gyara's typing also complements our team better than that of Gliscor or Dragonite. Gliscor also cannot spread paralysis, one of the tools we decided we'd focus on, nor can it shuffle or support the team with Intimidate. Picking Gliscor would leave us far too vulnerable to both Sun and Rain offense, with Latias taking the brunt of most attacks, and Dragonite would make the team much weaker to physical Dragon attackers (Dnite, Haxorus, Mence).

    Latias really doesn't need to run HP Fire to beat the threats you listed. She only takes 48% from Scizor's Band U-Turn, as Pocket said, who is then forced to switch. Ferrothorn really isn't a problem, as he can't do jack to Breloom who absolutely sets up on him. Tyranitar isn't an issue as most of the rest of this team demolishes him (Nido 2HKOs with EP, Rachi flinchaxes him to death, Gyara doesn't give a fuck, Breloom and Terrakion hahahaha).

    that's what I said but everyone else disagreed :(

    Virizion and Terrakion definitely CANNOT set up on Breloom. Breloom 2HKOs Virizion with +1 Drain Punch (61% - 72% (199 - 235 HP)) and I don't even need to talk about Terrakion. Jirachi also Iron Heads both to death unless it's a CB Terrakion running EQ (why?). A spinner would be very good for this team, but it is difficult to fit one into the strong defensive core while keeping up our offense. Dropping Reflect on Latios would leave us too open to Scizor and other strong physical attackers.

    Breloom already struggles with coverage with his current STABs (DNite, Mence, Skarm, Celebi, Lati@s, Tornadus), and dropping one would only exacerbate the issue. Breloom deals with stall pretty well right now because of his ability and bulk with the given set.

    Thanks for the rate!

    Good advice, we're pretty much considering that but sometimes it's nice to have a failsafe like Scarf Terrakion.

    Sounds good except that Nidoking is this team's focus :/ Forry would fit well here.

    Thanks!
  7. ginganinja

    ginganinja Goodbye
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    Just posting this to say that while its true that EQ has redundant coverage, its currently our best failsafe against SD Toxicroak which can be quite the bitch. Gyarados can paralyse it I guess but without Earthquake its tricky to play around. (need to go to Gyarados to intimidate and Thunder Wave, and then we very likely need Latias to get up Reflect so Nidoking can finally revenge. I agree that Rock Slide is a better option if Toxicroak ceases to be a problem tho.

    EDIT

    BTW Credit where credit is due, a big thank you to Pocket for helping drive this project along. You contributed so much in building the team, you then went out and laddered with it showing off logs, and then spent long hours making the RMT (I really should have helped with that sorry!!). Well Done
  8. H-C

    H-C

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    Hey nice team you got here, I see a huge weakness to Growth Venusaur here and Jirachi takes a lot from it. This why I propose you to play a Specially Defensive Heatran over Jirachi, this allow you to play easely with sun teams.
    This is the set :

    Heatran (M) @ Leftovers Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 252 HP / 8 Def / 204 SDef / 44 Spd
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Toxic
    - Lava Plume
    - Roar
    - Stealth Rock


    This spread allows you to outspeed most of Scizor which are played to 195 to outspeed other Heatran and gives you some bulk.

    You're now losing your wish passer, this is why I propose you to play a Rest Talk Gyarados over this Gyarados, it's huge defensive bulk is really great and does not need to be healed like this Gyarados.
    The set :
    Gyarados (F) @ Leftovers Trait: Intimidate
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spd
    Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
    - Waterfall
    - Roar
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk


    The team :
    Show Hide

    Nidoking (M) @ Life Orb Trait: Sheer Force
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SAtk
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Earth Power
    - Thunderbolt
    - Ice Beam
    - Fire Blast

    Breloom (M) @ Toxic Orb
    Trait: Poison Heal
    EVs: 60 HP
    Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
    - Drain Punch
    - Bulk Up
    - Spore
    - Seed Bomb

    Latias (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 28 HP / 228 Def
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Calm Mind
    - Reflect
    - Recover

    Terrakion @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Justified
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Close Combat
    - Stone Edge
    - X-Scissor
    - Earthquake

    Heatran (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 252 HP / 8 Def / 204 SDef / 44 Spd
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Toxic
    - Lava Plume
    - Roar
    - Stealth Rock

    Gyarados (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Intimidate
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spd
    Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
    - Waterfall
    - Roar
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk
  9. Professor Science

    Professor Science

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    btw, he's Axmaster68, not Axemaster28.
  10. ITSU

    ITSU

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    Hi, i just have one small fix that might help you with stall, so i encourage you to try it. Over your nidoking's set, i would recommend a Mixed Hone Claws set. What this will do is allow you to set up on a switch, and beat the common blissey and friends stall team with a +1 STAB Earthquake. Also, you will get an accuracy boost, so you can use those higher damage moves such as blizzard, Thunder and Fire Blast, and almost never miss due to the +1 in accuracy from Hone Claws. I would recommend trying it out, as it is really a good set. Here is the set:

    NidoKing @ Life Orb
    Naive Nature
    40 Atk, 244 SpA, 224 Spe
    ~Hone Claws
    ~Earthquake
    ~Blizzard
    ~Fire Blast/Thunder

    with the given EVs in Attack and a Life Orb, +1 Earthquake deals 51.8% - 61.1% to 252 HP / 252 Def Bold Blissey, a surefire 2HKO with entry hazards. You can change the EVs if you like too. I would recomend running Thunder over Fire Blast though so that you can deal some damage to rain, although if you dont want to miss, you can run Fire Blast, completely up to you.
  11. Pocket

    Pocket Nyanko Sensei >:3
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    UGH, Professor Science, thanks for catching that mistake (I'm usually good with names...). Fixed. Sorry, about that Axmaster68 :x

    ginganinja, and especially skidilidy, thanks for responding to the rates! Although, I've written this RMT, anyone who have used this team should not hesitate to voice their inputs on the rates :)

    BKC's CB / SD Terrakion and NatGeo's Bulky DDance Gyarados seem to possibly provide the offensive power that this team is lacking, so I would certainly try them out. I'm not a fan of RestTalk Gyarados, because the strategy is heavily nerfed by the new sleep mechanics, imo, and I much prefer the utility that Taunt provides (prevents Gyarados from becoming Spikes bait). I've never used RestTalk Gyarados, since I'm convinced that it's worse, but I guess it is worth a try. Forretress does seem to further solidify this team's defense to the likes of Haxorus and Terrakion, especially if our Terrakion loses Scarf, but Nidoking is irreplaceable o3o. Pretty much what skidilidy said.

    Thanks for the helpful rates, BKC and NatGeo!

    H-C, Growth Venusaur can certainly be a major nuisance to this team, especially with Breloom providing it free opportunities to set-up. A Timid LO Growth Venusaur with Sludge Bomb may very well sweep this team, if it switches in on the right moment to grab a free Growth boost. I certainly have struggled in the past when facing a Chloro Venusaur, so I'll make note of your suggestion, thanks!
  12. SlimMan

    SlimMan

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    Hey Pocket. I didn't get a shout-out in the OP, but if I had, it would've been #1 OU CCAT Creeper. I've literally stalked this project every day, even when it went several days without any new posts. But I don't recall ever actually contributing. I've been playtesting this team since the minute Terrakion was added.
    Warning: wall of text coming.

    So now that I've established my familiarity with the CCAT purpose, process, and team, I'd like to make the following suggestions. This is category1.

    1) Change Jirachi's EV spread to 252 HP/32 Def/220 Sp Def/4 Spd. With this new spread, CB Haxorus will do 49.8% max with Outrage, making Jirachi a safe switch-in for it. With the current spread, Stealth Rock will cancel Leftovers, making Outrage a potential 2HKO. However, that cannot happen now. The loss of Sp Defense is really not noticeable, like, at all. The loss in Speed is irrelevant. You're still faster than 252+ Scrafty, which is all you out-sped anyway, and there's no point in speed-creeping other base 100's because none of them threaten Jirachi anyway.
    tl;dr: This change gives you a Pokemon who can safely switch into CB Haxorus, with SR up, and you currently lack one. It has no real drawbacks.

    2) Give Gyarados max HP. Change Dragon Tail to Roar. As for the EVs, there's no reason not to. Max HP does not increase the damage he takes from SR, it simply maximizes his physical bulk. As for Roar, it really does merit use over Dragon Tail. Dragon Tail is nice for the residual damage it can apply to the opponent, and it can actually do significant damage to frail, offensive Pokemon. However, as you stated in the OP, offensive teams are not what this team struggles with. Dragon Tail's weakness, Substitute users, is much more of a problem for this team. SubDD Gyarados takes 22% max from Dragon Tail (assuming it runs Moxie and your Attack isn't lowered), allowing it to make a Substitute, and then DD before you can Taunt. Because it's Substitute is still intact, it can proceed to 2HKO Gyarados using Bounce, assuming you have even the tiniest amount of prior damage, without being worried about you phazing it out. From there, only Scarf Terrakion can hope to stop it, with the unreliable Stone Edge. You cannot afford to predict and attack twice in a row rather than Taunting, because at +2 it can out-speed Scarf Terrakion (with a Jolly nature). In short, Roar can prevent a SubDD Gyarados sweep where Dragon Tail cannot. SubCM Jirachi is a similar issue, in rain. Dragon Tail cannot phaze it, while it can do as it pleases on Gyarados. The second you Taunt it, it will merely slaughter the serpent with Thunder. Nothing on this team can really revenge it - it is only out-sped by Terrakion, who fails to OHKO without prior damage, but is OHKO'ed by Water Pulse. Therefore, you cannot allow it a possible Substitute if it gets in unscathed. Roar can punish it for attempting to set up. I understand that much of the time, it would be unwise to leave a Gyarados in on SubCM Jirachi in the first place, but this team really doesn't have any other option against it. It is defnitely a weakness to be aware of. Lastly, Roar has the small advantage of perfect accuracy. This is rarely important in a battle, but a little more safety is never a bad thing.
    tl;dr: This change grants you much more safety versus Substitute users, most notably Gyarados and Jirachi, who are both very significant threats to the team (moreso Jirachi, however). The drawback is the loss of residual damage (arguably made up for by perfect accuracy, but the drawback still stands).

    And here is the "optional section", where these things are more just ideas to test than changes I'm sure would help. This is category2.

    1) Change Terrakion to the SubSD set. This idea is to possibly help with the weakness to stall teams, as this set can really smash up physical walls ( I think Stone Edge OHKOesGliscor at +2 with Rock Gem), leaving them open for Breloom to exploit. However, I put this into this category, rather the first category, because I'm not 100% behind this one. The revenge-killing capabilities of Terrakion are nice, because although the defensive core is superb, it does require careful playing to keep each member alive, and it is weakened if anyone dies. However, if careful play can be maintained throughout a match, then this new set would be good for breaking up defensive-oriented teams.
    tl;dr: Optionally, Terrakion can be changed to a SubSD variant to help with stall. The drawback is that it necessitates much caution with each member of the defensive core.

    Oh, and by the way, keep EQ instead of Rock Slide. SubBU Toxicroak is a bitch (and another reason to use Roar on Gyarados).

    2) 8 more Spd EVs on Breloom, in order to speed-creep Specially Defensive Heatran. Speed-creep is generally considered "bad" which is why I didn't put this into the first category. However, if you're ever feeling particularly paranoid, this is something to keep in mind. Specially Defensive Heatran is really not a threat to this team though, like, at all, so that's also why this idea is in this category.
    tl;dr: Optionally, Breloom can be given more speed just in case of faster SpDef Heatran, but since he's not a problem anyway it doesn't really matter.

    And here are a couple of things that I don't really think would help, but they wouldn't hurt if you're a conservative player. This is category3.

    1) Flamethrower over Fire Blast on Nidoking. To be honest, I don't support this. At all. I wouldn't make this change if I were you. I would keep Fire Blast. But you never know, if you are a paranoid player, that perfect accuracy might let you sleep better at night.
    tl;dr: Flamethrower over Fire Blast on Nidoking, although I think it's unnecessary and I'd actually recommend against it.

    2) Give Latias max speed. If you do change Terrakion's set, then this suggestion bumps up from this category to the second one in order to compensate for the lower speed there. Again, I wouldn't do it, because the current set is a monster. But you never know when an extra revenge-killer for Terrakion, Landorus, etc. might come in handy.
    tl;dr: Max speed on Latias, but again, it defeats the point of the set so only try it if you're desperate.

    And here is a nitpick with the RMT, not the team.

    1) Impish lowers Sp Atk, not Atk.


    Coincidentally, the 1 of each category is more important than the 2, and the importance of categories is obviously 1>2>3.
    Well, that's my rate. It's a great team that the DST crew built, and Pocket did a great job leading it (and writing up the RMT). GL to everyone who uses this team!
  13. complete legitimacy

    complete legitimacy one for the future
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    Thanks for putting this up Pocket, you did a great job through all of this and now is the time to see the result. Thanks for the shout-out by the way!

    Anyways, with the team's large weakness to stall, I think that Stallbreaker Mew could go over Latias. Latias provides crucial resistances to both Grass and Fire, which are the main weapons of Chlorophyll sweepers. While the team will miss the resistances to some of sun's most powerful threats such as Darmanitan, Mew can stop Sawsbuck in its tracks with Will-O-Wisp. This then leaves us vulnerable to Venusaur and Tangrowth, which will be addressed in the next change. However, the main reason for using a bulkier spread on Latias is so it isn't Pursuit bait for the likes of Scizor and Tyranitar. Mew can neuter both of them, and make them almost fodder for Breloom.

    Speaking of Breloom, I have just a small EV spread change to make. With the removal of Latias, the team now needs a way to combat Venusaur better. As of now, the only Pokemon that can deal with it is Jirachi, but if Venusaur sets up, it's gg. While my changes do not completely fix this problem, changing Breloom's spread to 236 HP / 248 SpD / 24 Spe gives us another check to it. With only a slight decrease in Speed and a little more Sp. Def, Breloom will always live an unboosted Modest Life Orb HP Fire in the sun from Venusaur at full health, and most of the time even with Stealth Rock, and can then cripple it with Spore. The only thing that is worth outspeeding between 191 (the current spread) and 181 (the new spread) is minimum Speed Heatran, and that can be dealth with by Terrakion, Gyarados, and Nidoking. You lower your Speed to outspeed max Speed Wobbuffet, although you could invest 4 more EVs to speed creep standard Skarmory.

    Summary of Changes (open)

    Mew > Latias
    Pros: beats stall, one of the team's biggest problems
    Cons: weaker to Chlorophyll sweepers

    New spread on Breloom:
    Pros: adds a check to Venusaur
    Cons: none really, min Speed Heatran is already dealth with comfortably


    Sets (open)
    Breloom (M) @ Toxic Orb
    Trait: Poison Heal
    EVs: 236 HP / 248 SDef / 24 Spd
    Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
    - Drain Punch
    - Bulk Up
    - Spore
    - Seed Bomb

    Mew @ Leftovers
    Trait: Synchronize
    EVs: 252 HP / 224 Def / 32 Spd
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Taunt
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Softboiled
    - Seismic Toss
  14. Jimera0

    Jimera0 You don't understand, Edgar is the one in the hole!

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    Hey, I know I only contributed a little bit to this project at the start, but I do know a good bit to help it out. I ended up getting impatient and making my own Nidoking team, which did alright but I ended up taking a hiatus from PO after making it so I didn't end up refining it much.

    However, due to sheer coincidence you ended up with a defensive core almost identical to the one I'm using, only with Breloom instead of Tangrowth. As such, I CAN give you advice with regards to that, and in particular with your weakness to stall, as I'm experiencing the exact same problem.

    Firstly, I'm going to shock Pocket here by saying don't change to rest talk gyarados as suggested, at least not in the name of defeating stall. Because I know from using Rest-Talk Gyarados that that won't work. Don't get me wrong, Rest-Talk Gyarados absolutely wreaks havoc on most psyically offensive mons (with Intimidate it can even give Terrakion pause). It just isn't any good at taking down stall. Oh, it can last all day against it, but it has no way to actually take the stalling Pokemon down. It'll just wind up ending up getting PP stalled to death.

    I do however support the idea of replacing Dragon Tail with Roar on Gyarados. I love Dragon Tail on mine, but you really need a way to deal with substitute users. No Dragon Tail will leave you more vulnerable to Espeon centric Baton pass teams, but those are really uncommon anyway so the tradeoff should be positive.

    Instead, I suggest following the other suggestions and turning your revenge killing Terrakion into a stall breaking Terrakion. Either the Choice band set or the Sub SD set should work (I'm a fan of the Sub-SD set myself). One way or another, get yourself a way to bust through those walls, because I know from experience how densely they populate the 1300s range on the ladder.

    I'd also like to say that I'm actually learning a lot from this RMT and the suggestions people are posting that can help me with MY team. As I already said, the defensive core I have is very, very similar to yours and I've gotten some ideas from this thread on how to overcome my own obstacles. Thanks for that everyone!
  15. Motagua

    Motagua El Ciclón Azul

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    Hey Pocket it is a really nice team you built around Nidoking :´). He was my favorite pokemon back in Yellow :D. I would like to second SlimMan´s suggestion of changing Jirachi´s EV spread to 252 HP/32 Def/220 Sp Def/4 Spd. Since you lack a spinner and Gyarados lacks recovery, he can go down and Dragon-mons will be free to spam their attacks. This new EV spread stops Haxorus coldly and is able to take his Outrage like a boss.

    I agree with other users and stall seems a big problem for this team, mainly because of its lack of power. I would like to suggest a Double Dancer Terrakion to keep a way to revenge kill & stallbreaking as well. Terrakion can set up Rock Polish to eliminate HO teams & Chlorophyll users while Swords Dance rapes the shit out of stall. It´s hard to believe Toxicroak is a problem to this team mainly because Latias can set up Reflect on his face and from there, it is easier to deal with. The item is your personal preference, Life Orb to deal more damage and land the KOs on Gliscor & Slowbro, or Air Balloon to get more chances to set-up against HO teams.

    Good job and congrats for making a succesful team around Nidoking :). Cheers for that! :D.
  16. ginganinja

    ginganinja Goodbye
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderatoris a Community Contributor Alumnus
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    Nitpicking this (again) but Reflect on Latias does not make it a proper counter. For startered (iirc) SD Toxicroak outspeeds and hammers it with Ice Punch, but the real problem is that the only thing that can KO Toxicroak (if we switch to Double Dance Terrakion), is Nidoking which cannot switch into an Ice Punch, and takes a fair bit from Sucker Punch (especially if the opponent gets a second SD once refect goes up.

    Not that Terrakions set is up for chance if Roar > Dragon Tail is carried out on Gyarados, since we can phase away Toxicroak (at the very least tho it remains a problem).

    Fully agree with Slim Mans Jirachi change tho as (he so kindly put it) doesn't affect the balance of the team.
  17. shrang

    shrang OM OM OM
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    If you're having problems with Stall, why not change Gyarados' set to Tauntrados? I guess Ferrothorn still gives it some problems, but hey, at least you have something to shut down walls with:

    Gyarados @ Leftovers
    Ability: Intimidate
    EVs: 156 HP / 72 Atk / 96 Def / 184 Spe
    Nature: Adamant
    - Dragon Dance
    - Waterfall
    - Taunt
    - Bounce

    Unlike your current set, this Gyarados can sweep. Taunt + Dragon Tail would be nice... if you had more hazards.

    And there's little point running both Bulk Up Breloom AND Reflect CM Latias, IMO. You don't need that many checks to Volt-turn. So, to be more annoying to stall and other teams in general, I think it's better if you just change Breloom back to the standard SubPunching set:

    Breloom @ Toxic Orb
    Ability: Poison Heal
    EVs: 12 HP / 244 Atk / 252 Spe
    Nature: Adamant
    - Spore
    - Substitute
    - Seed Bomb
    - Focus Punch

    Just two small changes that doesn't disrupt your synergy but may help you out in the long run. Good to see a successful CCAT (Ubers is yet to have one, which makes me sad), and good luck on the team.
  18. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    @SlimMan

    SubCM Jirachi is not so big of a problem because of Latias as of now. Latias can outstall Jirachi i think because at +6 Thunder only does 37.63 - 44.5% to unboosted Latias, meaning it can even survive a critical hit. So if you put in the calculations the CM boosts that Latias will have gained and you will find that most often than not Latias won't even need to Recover to be in nice shape as Lefties will be enough. And also the parafusion hax is actually going to help Latias outstall Jirachi better. The only way that Latias can lose is if it gets parafusioned haxed when a crit happens, but what are the chances of that?

    Also BU Breloom can handle Jirachi most of the time as it can set-up alongside him and hit him very hard after a few boosts while healing automatically with Drain Punch and Poison Heal. Brelloom also cannot get paralyzed which leaves smaller chances to Jirachi to hax his way trhough you. He has to hit you Water Pulse, hoping for the 40% chance to activate, which even at +6 fails to 2hko doing 41.56 - 49.06%.

    So SubCM Jirachi is pretty well covered right now!

    Now that we are done with this, let's see your other ideas. The spread you suggested for Jirachi is good and so i support it!

    Also Roar is indeed a better option to deal with possibly problematic threats such as Gyarados and Toxciroak.

    Finally SubSD Terakion might be just what we need to break through Stall teams, but i think that the revenge killing ability of ScarTera will be sorely missed.

    Now that i think about it here is a suggestion. Drop Latias for Stall Breaking Mew, to handle Stall teams much better. Mew also deals with some other problematic threats very good such as any kind of Toxicroak. Mew also handles Speedy Deoxys-D, and Deoxys-D in general, which haves an easy time against this team as of now, walling most of it and finding multiple set-up oportunites.

    SubCM Jirachi is still almost hard countered by BU Breloom, so i think that we will be fine even without Latias against him.

    So the only issue that remains is Venusaur in the sun right? Well no problem since we can always revenge kill it with ScarfTera and it can't really set-up against everything else except Breloom (if Sleep Clause is not active, then Venu can't even set-up on Brelloom). So i think it can be played around.

    So my suggestions:

    Supporting SlimMan's spread on Jirachi

    Roar instead of Dragon Tail on Gyrados to better handle boosters with Sub, like SubBU Toxicroak and mainly SubDD Gyarados. However i am not 100% sure about this, since without D-Tail, Baton Pass teams with Espeon (read: all of them) could prove to be problematic. The main threats that we want to cover with Roar is SubDD Gyra, so if we have other ways of dealing with it we can keep D-Tail on Gyara

    Supporting complete legitimacy's suggestion of moving 40 evs from Spe to SpD to avoid being ohkoed from a LO HP Fire in sun from Venusaur so that we can put it to sleep, and leave to Venusaur zero room for setup.

    Replace Latias with Stall Breaking Mew to better handle stall teams. It's moveset will be Taunt, WoW, Roost and Psychic and the ev spread will be the standard.

    Not a change but keep ScarfTera as insurance against many threats that could otherwise sweep us like Volcarona, Venusaur, DD Taunt Gyara (Mew can't do shit), DD Dragonite and more.
  19. Frog

    Frog

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    I'm not going to put a big rate here or go after nitpicks.
    CM reuniclus>latias
    It beats stall
    Jirachi is easily handled by gyarados and nidoking.
    Sableye and spiritomb are silly
    Beats blissey, chansey, most celebi, and is extra insuranc against conkeldurr and terrakion
    Scizor is hard countered by bulky gyarados and tyranitar is checked by practically your whole team
    Trust me on this one
  20. Pocket

    Pocket Nyanko Sensei >:3
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
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    LOTS AND LOTS of great ideas, thrown around tyvm!

    ITSU, sorry for missing your rate before, but that Nidoking set seems intriguing. I thought about going mixed with Nidoking, but gave up on it, since it cannot really afford to spread thin its offense. However, with Hone Claws Nidoking packs enough punch to check mate Blissey / Chansey. 2 LO EQ also inflicts ~88% damage to 252 HP / 0 Def Gastrodon, so this allows Nidoking to be more self-sufficient :d

    I would not take your approach, though, since your particular set relies too much on Hone Claws, which should be used sparingly. I also dislike the face that Nidoking has no special STAB to abuse, making Nidoking more reliant on super effective coverage. I would also rather not take away from its Speed, so it can outpace Haxorus.

    I think I will go with Slugde Wave and Fire Blast as its coverage move. Sludge Wave will provide a solid STAB to hurt neutral mons, and Earthquake and Fire Blast actually provides decent offense against any Poison-resists. The only problem I see here is the loss of Ice Beam, which would allow specially defensive Hippowdon to wall this set, while not being able to finish off Dragonite, Gliscor, and Landorus in one shot. It's definitely worth a try, though :d Thanks for sharing!

    Here's a set I'm thinking of trying out:

    Nidoking @ Life Orb
    Trait: Sheer Force
    EVs: 40 Atk / 216 SpA / 252 Spe
    Naive Nature (+Spe, -SpD)
    - Earthquake
    - Hone Claw
    - Sludge Wave
    - Fire Blast


    SlimMan, thank you for the immense feedback, you are now on the Shout Out List :D. Your Jirachi EVs are sick - I may end up using this spread for every Wish Jirachi I use! I am unsure of Roar on Gyarados, however, I do enjoy the ability to rack up damage on Dragons and Rotom-W with it. In the Rain, our Gyarados breaks the opposing Gyarados's Substitute with Waterfall, so you don't necessarily need Roar to beat SubDD variants. Thanks for bringing my attention to the team's weakness to SubCM Jirachi, though, since I can definitely see it being a bitch to this team. Latias can stall it out, but that's about it. I am grateful for your amazing feedback, SlimMan!

    complete legitimacy, I am slight hesitant in replacing Latias with Stallbreaker Mew that cannot take powerful Water-moves. Breloom provides meager special defense, despite its initial hype for being able to wall Water-types, it's certainly not enough to deal with Rain and Chloro Sweepers.

    Jimera0, your post has given quite a few ideas to me, as well! Your post help me lead to the conclusion that Latias and Breloom's spot can be more flexible. I am thinking of combining both of their roles in dealing with Special Rain Sweepers and countering Volt-Turn with Gastrodon. Not to mention Gastrodon will help us with SubCM Jirachi. This will free a spot for either a revenge killer (if I opt for CB / SD Terrakion) or a wall breaker (if I stick with Scarf Terrakion). I am thinking of sticking with Scarf Terrakion and add Sunny Beam Heatran with either Taunt or Metal Sound to break stall :d. Heatran will also provide a solid check to Chlorophyll Venusaur! Sounds good on paper - let's see how it actually works in practice.

    Mortagua, thanks for the enjoying this RMT and for reinforcing some of the helpful suggestions stated previously!

    shrang, it's a nice treat to see you on this thread! I will certainly NatGeo's suggestion of bulky DDance Gyarados. Your SubPunch Breloom suggestion is something I would definitely want to try before fully replacing it with some of the other options I have delineated above :d. Thanks!

    Frog, Hmm, CM Reuniclus is also a nice suggestion to beat most stall, although it will probably fall short against stall teams with Roar Latias, PSong Celebi, Sableye, Quagsire, specially-defensive Hippowdon, DTail Dragonite, etc. I will keep Reuniclus in mind, though, thanks!

    I am very grateful for the many insightful suggestions that has gotten me to think some more ideas, too! I noted all the proposed changes on the OP :) I will test these pro-tips as soon as I get the chance! Since this is a community team, I welcome anyone to test and tinker with this team :) Thanks, again <3
  21. eriados

    eriados

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    Yeah for sure Roar>Dtail, i don't know why none of us thought of that.

    I really don't want to give up Scarf Terra cuz I can never manage to keep my defensive core entirely intact. As I said, he's basically our failsafe.

    Yeah I usually ending up saccing Latias to get some initial damage down and revenging with Terrakion's SE. I don't like it as a solution and sun offense in general is a bitch to handle.

    Unfortunately 'Tran can't spread para like Jirachi which was one of the reasons we picked Jirachi. It's also a lot weaker offensively in general then 'Rachi (who can wear basically anything down by flinchaxing).


    Interesting but you really miss that extra coverage. IMO it's better for this team for nido not to have to set up because he just smashes things that aren't blissey when he gets in. prediction is one of the key parts of playing him so you can for example hit DNite with Ice Beam on the switch from Heatran or something like that.

    Unfortunately, that leaves us pretty weak to rain and especially sun offense. Reuniclus, while being really bulky, doesn't have the resistances and tanking ability of Latias that this team really needs.

    Edit: woah ninja'ed by pocket
    @Gastrodon and SunnyBeam Heatran
    Sounds pretty good and I think it's absolutely worth a shot. My one concern is that it might make the team a little too defensive and Gastrodon would take a pretty heavy beating against Sun since we can't stop their weather, although Heatran can deal with Sun pretty well. MixedGrowth Venusaur might give us a run for our money (Growth/Grass STAB/EQ/Filler).
  22. LUST

    LUST
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    Hey

    This is a pretty cool OU Community Create-a-Team, Pocket. You did an excellent job leading it for months. Like others have already mentioned, Stall is definitely your worst enemy especially against SkarmBliss core teams. Blissey packs the capability to wall both Nidoking and Latias which is problematic; where Breloom, Jirachi and Terrakion fail to break through Skarmory's superb defense and Gyarados could potentially taunt both Skarmory and Blissey but gets defeated by the third member of the core such as Celebi, Jellicent etc. Arguably Nidoking is the weakest link but since he's the backbone replacing him isn't a good idea where Latias's spot could be played around with. To overcome the stall weakness I highly recommend switching Latias for Nasty Plot Mew. Others are suggesting the Stall Breaker variant which is also viable, but but NP Mew enhances your teams ability to break through walls precisely for Nidoking. Nasty Plot makes its offensive presence incredibly difficult to counter due to its solid coverage and power. Psyshock hits like a truck after a boost which skyrockets Mew's special attack to 598 with a timid nature. It decimates the likes of Chansey and Blissey which are necessary to be gone in order for Nidoking to be golden. Aura Sphere provides excellent coverage hitting everything that resists Psyshock, in particular Tyranitar and Heatran. For the last slot you got several options, Roost could potentially be used on a set with Life Orb to increase Mew's survivability; Fire Blast enables it to get an instant OHKO on any Scizor variant; Shadow Ball allows it to hit opposing Psychic-type mons like Reuniclus, Latias and company. Life Orb and Leftovers are all reasonable options and mainly depend on your personal preference. This change massively benefits your team as it becomes your primary option to deal with Sun teams alongside Terrakion.

    Nasty Plot Mew (open)
    [​IMG]

    Mew @ Leftovers / Life Orb | Synchronize
    Timid | 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    ~ Nasty Plot
    ~ Psyshock
    ~ Aura Sphere
    ~ Roost / Fire Blast / Shadow Ball

    If you don't adapt the Nasty Plot Mew suggestion over Latias, I have an alternative valid advice. I second SlimMan's suggestion on changing Terrakion to Sub Swords Dance variant. After this change SkarBliss teams and stall become much easier to handle with.
    For some minor changes, definitely run Roar over Dragon Tail on Gyarados to phaze out bulky users behind substitute, most namely Bulk Up Toxicroak and Sub Punch Breloom. Other than that brilliant team, Good Luck!
  23. SlimMan

    SlimMan

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    D'awww, I'm glad that people have been generally supporting my ideas! I normally don't rate teams so I was nervous but I felt that I could help, and it looks like I could.

    And Pocket, thanks for adding me to the shout-out list, you're just too sweet. :D
    I would've contributed, but I was grumpy because I lost my dibs on the CCAT and my Pokemon didn't get picked. But you led the project excellently, and I'll make sure to be active if/when you lead the second one!
  24. Darkerones

    Darkerones

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    Yeah I have to agree that Latias is a weak link in the team.

    Try a wallbreaking Salamence with Moxie or Infernape to help you with stall. Ill suggest sets later.
  25. Darkerones

    Darkerones

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    Yeah I have to agree that Latias is a weak link in the team.

    Try a wallbreaking Salamence with Moxie or Infernape to help you with stall. Ill suggest sets later.

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