Pokémon the starters role in the metagame

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Aldrius the whole point of this thread is to speculate a starters' role in the metagame. I don't see how "there's no OU yet, you can't call it" is a viable argument. There may be a niche where Fox works over Special Vic but the reasons to use Victini over Delphox vastly outnumber the reasons to use Delphox over Victini. There's no legitimate way you can argue against this.
Speculating about the pokemon's power is one thing, speculating about it's TIER position is another matter entirely and there's too many factors in regards to type, etc. to really know where something is going to end up. And to say it "WON'T BE OU. NO WAY." is just again, presumptious. I'm not saying it will be OU, but to say it won't be, when we don't know ANYTHING about the metagame yet is presumptious. We don't even know Delphox's whole movepool yet. Or Victini's for that matter.

I'm just saying, comparing it to how a pokemon performed LAST gen... I don't see the point. We could end up with more tiers for all we know.

At the moment, only Megavoir and Azumarill (and I guess mayyyybe Megawile? only b/c of huge power i guess) are looking like OU contenders. That by no means looks like a change that will make Fighting/Bug STAB less useful or Psychic STAB more in demand. Also most Fairies are specially defensive which means resist or not the primarily physical Bug and Fighting types aren't going anywhere. It also doesn't necessitate more Poison types in OU, if anything, it just means existing OU poison types (like Gengar, Tentacruel, etc.) will start actually using their Poison STAB.
Sylveon is practically a fairy-type Vaporeon. Florges is a good special wall. Togekiss as previously mentioned. There's lots of fairy-types that could see use this gen, and until people start actually play testing this stuff extensively we're not going to know what's getting used.
 
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I must say if everything is true, I'm excited to see the use of charizard, but he will need support in the form of a rapid spinner, and a Pokemon capable of using sticky web, it will be interesting to see the use of both mega zards
 
Just saw how protean works on showdown, greninja is almost absurdly going to be ou, it technically gets stab for all it's attacks, and has multiple forms of priority, and gets nasty plot, glad I picked froakie
 
Actually, I think Delphox is a pretty versatile and cool Pokémon, and will be very usable in whichever tier it ends up in (don't think it'll be OU, though). Calm Mind + Mystical Fire make it quite difficult to take on the special side, able to force switches, and it even has Will-O-Wisp to fend off Physical Attackers and PsyShock for Special Walls. His main concern will be Heatran IMO, se here are some calcs I've made:

  • +2 252 SpA Life Orb Timid Delphox Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Calm Heatran: 148-174 (38.44 - 45.19%) - Guaranteed 3HKO

  • 252 SpA Timid Heatran Earth Power vs. +2 0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Delphox: 100-118 (34.36 - 40.54%) - Guaranteed 3HKO

This means that after 2 Calm Minds, Delphox can beat Heatran 1 on 1 (with enough set up) without having to resort to Shadow Ball for coverage.

Offensive Calm Mind
Nature: Timid
Ability: Blaze
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spe
- Mystical Fire
- PsyShock
- Will-O-Wisp
- Calm Mind

This set seems pretty viable, although Wish support would be appreciated.
 
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Actually, I think Delphox is a pretty versatile and cool Pokémon, and will be very usable in whichever tier it ends up in (don't think it'll be OU, though). Calm Mind + Mystical Fire make it quite a Special Wall able to force switches, and it even has Will-O-Wisp to fend off Physical Attackers and PsyShock for Special Walls. His main concern will be Heatran IMO, se here are some calcs I've made:

  • +2 252 SpA Life Orb Timid Delphox Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Calm Heatran: 148-174 (38.44 - 45.19%) - Guaranteed 3HKO

  • 252 SpA Timid Heatran Earth Power vs. +2 0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Delphox: 100-118 (34.36 - 40.54%) - Guaranteed 3HKO

This means that after 2 Calm Minds, Delphox can beat Heatran 1 on 1 (with enough set up) without having to resort to Shadow Ball for coverage.

Offensive Calm Mind
Nature: Timid
Ability: Blaze
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spe
- Mystical Fire
- PsyShock
- Will-O-Wisp
- Calm Mind

This set seems pretty viable, although Wish support would be appreciated.
Keyword: +2. That means it'll take five turns total to KO that Heatran - two for setup, three to actually attack it. Meanwhile, Heatran just kicked its arse or phased it out or set up on it.
Not much is gonna let a Delphox set up; it's not exactly a bulky giant, though it's not a Sharpedo, either, though the damage it takes during setup + Life Orb recoil means it'll go down fairly quicky. Being weak to SR and vulnerable to all entry hazards isn't so great, either, especially since Sticky Web really hurts it due to making it lose its all-important speed. While Wish support is nice, you can't always guarantee it, especially since you usually have to switch in to take a wish, and Delphox switching in... Eh...

Lati twins are also important to keep in mind, as Latios in particular doesn't really care about burns and can just click something to smash Delphox. It's not a bad poke, but I see it being either high RU or mid-UU.
 
Delphox is shit:
252+ SpA Choice Specs (custom) Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Chansey: 189-223 (29.48 - 34.78%) -- 11.11% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA (custom) Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Chansey: 127-150 (19.81 - 23.4%) -- possible 5HKO
+6 252+ SpA (custom) Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Chansey: 504-594 (78.62 - 92.66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+5 252+ SpA Choice Specs (custom) Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Chansey: 662-779 (103.27 - 121.52%) -- guaranteed OHKO
It needs a +5 Modest Choice Specs to OHKO Chansey. How often will that occur? In the meantime Chansey can Wish Stall. Delphox will be RU imo, it just has such a shitty movepool and isn't as powerful as everyone thinks it is.
 
Delphox is shit:
252+ SpA Choice Specs (custom) Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Chansey: 189-223 (29.48 - 34.78%) -- 11.11% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA (custom) Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Chansey: 127-150 (19.81 - 23.4%) -- possible 5HKO
+6 252+ SpA (custom) Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Chansey: 504-594 (78.62 - 92.66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+5 252+ SpA Choice Specs (custom) Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Chansey: 662-779 (103.27 - 121.52%) -- guaranteed OHKO
It needs a +5 Modest Choice Specs to OHKO Chansey. How often will that occur? In the meantime Chansey can Wish Stall. Delphox will be RU imo, it just has such a shitty movepool and isn't as powerful as everyone thinks it is.
Fire, Psychic, Ghost and Grass afford it a nice amount of diversity. Not sure if it's perfect coverage, but it certainly is pretty hard to come in on. So, yeah. Not that shitty, man.

In fact, as far as I can tell, only 4 fully evolved pokemon in the entire game can resist that combo. Of those, only Hydreigon is OU and may be on his way out of favor.
 
Fire, Psychic, Ghost and Grass afford it a nice amount of diversity. Not sure if it's perfect coverage, but it certainly is pretty hard to come in on. So, yeah. Not that shitty, man.

Heatran shits on it as well. And what does it have that say Victini does not? Higher Special Attack, V-Create is more powerful. Speed? Choice Scarf. Honestly, it is outclassed by a lot of things.
 
Heatran shits on it as well. And what does it have that say Victini does not? Higher Special Attack, V-Create is more powerful. Speed? Choice Scarf. Honestly, it is outclassed by a lot of things.
Ghost is now neutral to Steel. Heatran has some problems in the metagame, now.

Also, V-create has way too many drawbacks to be considered for consistent use. And I'd rather not have a choice scarf to keep up with the current threats. Being locked into one move is never a good thing.
 
Ghost is now neutral to Steel. Heatran has some problems in the metagame, now.

Also, V-create has way too many drawbacks to be considered for consistent use. And I'd rather not have a choice scarf to keep up with the current threats. Being locked into one move is never a good thing.

True, but that Special Defense won't change anything.

Did you really just. Choice Items are very powerful, being locked into a move is not bad. It can be, in every situation it isn't just shit. V-Create has a fair trade of 180 BP STAB, to which it can just switch out and do it again.
 
True, but that Special Defense won't change anything.

Did you really just. Choice Items are very powerful, being locked into a move is not bad. It can be, in every situation it isn't just shit. V-Create has a fair trade of 180 BP STAB, to which it can just switch out and do it again.
91/106 special bulk is good, but it can't take too many neutral hits. Shadow Ball also has a 1 in 5 chance of lowering Heatran's special defense. Not too high, but high enough that Heatran shouldn't casually switch in.

No, I am not insulting Choice items. They have their place, but only on really fast(Specs and Band) or powerful(Scarf) pokemon. Delphox does not need the Scarf, as it is just fast enough to keep up with the current threats. It can also boost its stats, and thus doesn't really need Specs(though there is a good set for it, I'm sure).
 
Fire, Psychic, Ghost and Grass afford it a nice amount of diversity. Not sure if it's perfect coverage, but it certainly is pretty hard to come in on. So, yeah. Not that shitty, man.

In fact, as far as I can tell, only 4 fully evolved pokemon in the entire game can resist that combo. Of those, only Hydreigon is OU and may be on his way out of favor.
Not a chance, man. Good coverage does not a good pokemon make. Remember Electivire? His offenses were much better than Delphox's, he had a way easier time switching in, and he had better coverage moves (ice, fighting, ground, fire, etc.) He was still terrible. Delphox is weak to SR, has a terrible, terrible, defensive typing, few switch in opportunities, and is completely outclassed in every way by other pokemon.

Delphox is a poorer choice item user than Victini, who has a 180 BP move to back it up, plus u-turn and better coverage.

Delphox is a poorer choice tricker/CM user than Chandelure, who forces more switches (especially now with Blazikens running around everywhere on Wifi, I've never been so fond of Chandelure) and boasts immensely more powerful offenses and a way better STAB.

If you are that desperate that you will devote a whole teamslot to get a moderately fast, frail will-o-wisper, then there is something fundamentally wrong with your team that Delphox will not fix.

Plus, are you really relying on that 1 in five Sp. Def drop for heatran? No one gives a damn if that happens. If it does, oh well, but no one thinks, "oh no, I can't switch in heatran, he might use a non-STAB 80 BP attack on me that has a one in five shot of lowering my SP. DEF and STILL doesn't KO me."

Plus, yes, choice items are great, if you know how to use them right. Part of it is that Delphox makes for a mediocre choice user in current OU anyway.



Greninja is fantastic. Too many times I've seen people use him the wrong way though, switching him in or using him immediately and trying to wipe out whole full-health teams with him and then complaining that he's overhyped. Mid to late game, he is unstoppable.

Chesnaught I'm reserving judgement on. The few times I've gone up against one used right he was a constant thorn in my side, but he has a very specific niche that I don't think will earn him a great amount of usage. He's still better than I was expecting.
 
I think Greninja will be OU as a solid cleaner and revenge killer; between its massive speed stat (only 2 non-Mega Pokemon - Jolteon and Noivern - outspeed it in OU), and Protean giving it STAB on every attack it uses off a respectable base 103 special attack stat, as well as access to Spikes, it will be clearly OU.

Delphox at the moment is probably the best fire type available (aside from Mega Charizard formes) but when Pokebank is released it will have to compete with Victini, who is slightly slower but much bulkier and has access to fantastic physical movepool (and on the special side, gets the awesome Searing Shot). Not to mention all the other fire types that will be available too, such as Infernape, Volcarona and Heatran... I think delphox will be left in the dust of OU, though with base 114 special attack and 104 speed it could be quite a decent special sweeper in a lower tier. As for its Psychic typing, it gets STAB Psyshock which helps when dealing with Blissey but other than that, it's not too helpful... it is also utterly outclassed as a Psychic sweeper by Magic Guard Alakazam, with STAB fire blast the only advantage over the Great Moustached One.

Chesnaught drew the short stick in my opinion. Its typing leaves it with severe competition from the more powerful Breloom and the legendary (i.e. more stats) Virizion... or at least it will when Pokebank is released. Virizion can run effective special OR physical sets with decently high stats in every area and a fantastic speed stat, while Breloom has Technician boosting notable attacks off an already considerably higher attack stat (including a powerful STAB priority move) as well as access to Spore. Chesnaught's access to Spiky Shield and its unique hidden ability make it seem like a pretty good bulky tank, but Bulletproof doesn't protect it from any moves it is actually weak to (except Sludge Bomb) and it really doesn't have enough power to utilise its offensive movepool with; with all the ridiculously physically bulky new - and old - Pokemon such as Mega Aggron, Avalugg and Cofagrigus, it will have trouble breaking down doors, and Vizirion's better mixed/special bulk and Breloom's access to Poison Heal and Spore make them both also competitive defensive grass type tanks. I don't think Chesnaught will have any significant impact on the standard metagame, and will be relegated to the lower tiers (below UU). Not to mention how common Fire and Flying type attacks are already this gen, with the advent of the Mega Charizard forms and, of course, Talonflame. He isn;t even difficult to beat as long as you have a moderately powerful special attacker that can outspeed it (which really isn't difficult in the slightest).
 
Not a chance, man. Good coverage does not a good pokemon make. Remember Electivire? His offenses were much better than Delphox's, he had a way easier time switching in, and he had better coverage moves (ice, fighting, ground, fire, etc.) He was still terrible. Delphox is weak to SR, has a terrible, terrible, defensive typing, few switch in opportunities, and is completely outclassed in every way by other pokemon.

Delphox is a poorer choice item user than Victini, who has a 180 BP move to back it up, plus u-turn and better coverage.

Delphox is a poorer choice tricker/CM user than Chandelure, who forces more switches (especially now with Blazikens running around everywhere on Wifi, I've never been so fond of Chandelure) and boasts immensely more powerful offenses and a way better STAB.

If you are that desperate that you will devote a whole teamslot to get a moderately fast, frail will-o-wisper, then there is something fundamentally wrong with your team that Delphox will not fix.

Plus, are you really relying on that 1 in five Sp. Def drop for heatran? No one gives a damn if that happens. If it does, oh well, but no one thinks, "oh no, I can't switch in heatran, he might use a non-STAB 80 BP attack on me that has a one in five shot of lowering my SP. DEF and STILL doesn't KO me."

Plus, yes, choice items are great, if you know how to use them right. Part of it is that Delphox makes for a mediocre choice user in current OU anyway.
Electivire's problem was that his 95 base speed wasn't doing him any favors, and relied on a predicted thunder wave to get a boost. Delphox does not have that problem, as far as I know. Also, Victini's STAB is great in theory, but those stat drops hurt it a bit. Let's not forget that the introduction of some nifty buffs to Defog lends Delphox a much better chance of switching in.

Also, 75/72/100 isn't frail. 60/60/60 is, and Delphox has just enough special bulk to take an attack or two. Delphox can work, though I will say that it's likely going to UU or RU. And yes, UU pokemon are used in OU.

The stat lowering thing is a legitimate problem, as Heatran isn't horribly bulky. It's not a MAJOR concern, but I certainly wouldn't want that to happen.

Chesnaught drew the short stick in my opinion. Its typing leaves it with severe competition from the more powerful Breloom and the legendary (i.e. more stats) Virizion... or at least it will when Pokebank is released. Virizion can run effective special OR physical sets with decently high stats in every area and a fantastic speed stat, while Breloom has Technician boosting notable attacks off an already considerably higher attack stat (including a powerful STAB priority move) as well as access to Spore. Chesnaught's access to Spiky Shield and its unique hidden ability make it seem like a pretty good bulky tank, but Bulletproof doesn't protect it from any moves it is actually weak to (except Sludge Bomb) and it really doesn't have enough power to utilise its offensive movepool with; with all the ridiculously physically bulky new - and old - Pokemon such as Mega Aggron, Avalugg and Cofagrigus, it will have trouble breaking down doors, and Vizirion's better mixed/special bulk and Breloom's access to Poison Heal and Spore make them both also competitive defensive grass type tanks. I don't think Chesnaught will have any significant impact on the standard metagame, and will be relegated to the lower tiers (below UU). Not to mention how common Fire and Flying type attacks are already this gen, with the advent of the Mega Charizard forms and, of course, Talonflame. He isn;t even difficult to beat as long as you have a moderately powerful special attacker that can outspeed it (which really isn't difficult in the slightest).
He counters the standard Gengar set pretty hard. Post Pokebank, that won't be an issue though. He also hard counters almost every Breloom set, by the way. He has a few niches, though I agree that he won't be OU.
 
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Protean Greninja effectively gets STAB on every move it uses, and can constantly change types depending on the opponents type with HP, even though that does cause four-movesot syndrome.
 
going from 95 to 104 speed isn't that big of a deal. fire/psychic is pretty crap for coverage(even worse defensively) and running 4 attack delphox isn't going to get you anywhere. and even if we forget about all the reasons delphox won't be ou, what reasons are there for it being ou? it doesn't do anything particularly well.
 
Electivire's problem was that his 95 base speed wasn't doing him any favors, and relied on a predicted thunder wave to get a boost. Delphox does not have that problem, as far as I know. Also, Victini's STAB is great in theory, but those stat drops hurt it a bit. Let's not forget that the introduction of some nifty buffs to Defog lends Delphox a much better chance of switching in.

Also, 75/72/100 isn't frail. 60/60/60 is, and Delphox has just enough special bulk to take an attack or two. Delphox can work, though I will say that it's likely going to UU or RU. And yes, UU pokemon are used in OU.

The stat lowering thing is a legitimate problem, as Heatran isn't horribly bulky. It's not a MAJOR concern, but I certainly wouldn't want that to happen.



He counters the standard Gengar set pretty hard. Post Pokebank, that won't be an issue though. He also hard counters almost every Breloom set, by the way. He has a few niches, though I agree that he won't be OU.

I brought up Electivire not because of the speed, but because of the raw power and his coverage. When electivire could land a hit, it usually just wasn't enough, because as people found out, coverage =/= KO. And as i pointed out, electivire has a higher attack stat, plus higher BP coverage moves (EQ, Cross Chop, etc.) If Electivre couldn't make his KOs stick, I sincerely doubt Delphox will.

Also, yes, 75/72/100 is very frail if you are a fire/psychic type. I honestly cannot think of a pokemon in OU with a worse defensive typing than this right off the top of my head. Especially now, with ghost attacks being thrown around the way dragon attacks were in fifth gen. Pursuit weak, EQ weak, water weak, SR and general rock weak, ghost weak, hit by every type of entry hazard; the useful fighting resist it gains is laughable since it is especially frail on the physical side, which most fighting moves are. U-turn hits neutral now, which may not sound like much until you again see that frail physical bulk. And yes, defog and support help it, but it also helps every other fire type, many of whom do a far better job at things that Delphox does.

And V-Create is good in THEORY? Really? You must not have played UU much last gen. Kingdra didn't even switch into banded v-create lightly. It wrecks everything that isn't immune to it. And bolt strike and u-turn didn't have drawbacks, nor did searing shot.


And no, it's not a legitimate problem. No one is going to think that it would be a bad move to switch in a heatran on a Delphox, because there is a 20% chance of a temporary drop in Sp. Def. It's ridiculous. but seriously? Heatran is not horribly bulky? With that fantastic typing and ability, and that 91/106 special bulk, no way. You do know that bulky heatran is the sole reason sun teams ran dugtrio, right? It's because heatran's walling ability stops entire teams cold. Delphox is a poor-to-mediocre fire type; if fire titans like Volcarona and Reshiram have to run obscure coverage to even have a chance of getting through heatran, Delphox sure as hell won't.


Edit: 100th post, apparently that's something of a big deal round here
 
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I brought up Electivire not because of the speed, but because of the raw power and his coverage. When electivire could land a hit, it usually just wasn't enough, because as people found out, coverage =/= KO. And as i pointed out, electivire has a higher attack stat, plus higher BP coverage moves (EQ, Cross Chop, etc.) If Electivre couldn't make his KOs stick, I sincerely doubt Delphox will.

Also, yes, 75/72/100 is very frail if you are a fire/psychic type. I honestly cannot think of a pokemon in OU with a worse defensive typing than this right off the top of my head. Especially now, with ghost attacks being thrown around the way dragon attacks were in fifth gen. Pursuit weak, EQ weak, water weak, SR and general rock weak, ghost weak, hit by every type of entry hazard; the useful fighting resist it gains is laughable since it is especially frail on the physical side, which most fighting moves are. U-turn hits neutral now, which may not sound like much until you again see that frail physical bulk. And yes, defog and support help it, but it also helps every other fire type, many of whom do a far better job at things that Delphox does.

And V-Create is good in THEORY? Really? You must not have played UU much last gen. Kingdra didn't even switch into banded v-create lightly. It wrecks everything that isn't immune to it. And bolt strike and u-turn didn't have drawbacks, nor did searing shot.


And no, it's not a legitimate problem. No one is going to think that it would be a bad move to switch in a heatran on a Delphox, because there is a 20% chance of a temporary drop in Sp. Def. It's ridiculous. but seriously? Heatran is not horribly bulky? With that fantastic typing and ability, and that 91/106 special bulk, no way. You do know that bulky heatran is the sole reason sun teams ran dugtrio, right? It's because heatran's walling ability stops entire teams cold. Delphox is a poor-to-mediocre fire type; if fire titans like Volcarona and Reshiram have to run obscure coverage to even have a chance of getting through heatran, Delphox sure as hell won't.
I recall hearing that it was entirely his speed that dropped him, as a 125 base attack Cross Chop is super strong(not as good as CC, obviously) regardless of what uses that.

Heatran ISN'T that bulky anymore with the loss of two resistances. Dark Pulse from a sufficiently powerful pokemon hurts him a lot, and now he has to settle for getting 3HKO'd over his previous 6. 91/106 is bulky, just not "tank" bulky, is what I meant, and that lack of reliable recovery might sting a bit more due to this. He's not going to go down in usage by much by this, but it does make him rethink a few things.

And V-Create isn't that great, at least on Victini, due to those key stat drops. It failed to make a large, lasting impact in OU, as made clear in its tiering. Again, not that he's bad, but you're overplaying it a bit.

252 Atk Life Orb Victini V-create vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kingdra: 83-97 (28.52 - 33.33%) -- 0.02% chance to 3HKO

Turns out Kingdra doesn't mind THAT much(given that Heatran now suffer a similar issue with Dark and Ghost moves from powerful sweepers, based on some calcs I made).

Pre Steel Nerf
252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 55-66 (14.28 - 17.14%) -- possible 8HKO after Spikes

Post Steel nerf
252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 111-132 (28.83 - 34.28%) -- 10.25% chance to 3HKO after Spikes (Though, to be fair, Focus Blast is the better choice here. Just demonstrating that he takes quite a bit of damage compared)

Used one layer of Spikes to simulate SR due to the damage calc being outdated past gen 5. He has lost some bulk, and isn't quite as tanky anymore(though not by a whole lot).
 
I recall hearing that it was entirely his speed that dropped him, as a 125 base attack Cross Chop is super strong(not as good as CC, obviously) regardless of what uses that.

Heatran ISN'T that bulky anymore with the loss of two resistances. Dark Pulse from a sufficiently powerful pokemon hurts him a lot, and now he has to settle for getting 3HKO'd over his previous 6. 91/106 is bulky, just not "tank" bulky, is what I meant, and that lack of reliable recovery might sting a bit more due to this. He's not going to go down in usage by much by this, but it does make him rethink a few things.

And V-Create isn't that great, at least on Victini, due to those key stat drops. It failed to make a large, lasting impact in OU, as made clear in its tiering. Again, not that he's bad, but you're overplaying it a bit.

252 Atk Life Orb Victini V-create vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kingdra: 83-97 (28.52 - 33.33%) -- 0.02% chance to 3HKO

Turns out Kingdra doesn't mind THAT much(given that Heatran now suffer a similar issue with Dark and Ghost moves from powerful sweepers, based on some calcs I made).

Pre Steel Nerf
252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 55-66 (14.28 - 17.14%) -- possible 8HKO after Spikes

Post Steel nerf
252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 111-132 (28.83 - 34.28%) -- 10.25% chance to 3HKO after Spikes (Though, to be fair, Focus Blast is the better choice here. Just demonstrating that he takes quite a bit of damage compared)

Used one layer of Spikes to simulate SR due to the damage calc being outdated past gen 5. He has lost some bulk, and isn't quite as tanky anymore(though not by a whole lot).

Yes, speed was part of it. But it was a lot that he just didn't have the power, which is the angle that I am trying to go for, and using to demonstrate that coverage does not mean kills. It's why his more common sets in RU (which is where it sits as of BW2, btw, and one with a significantly lower speed standard) tend to run choice bands or mixed sets now, because otherwise he doesn't stack up. Go ahead and look up electivire's set right now. It says outright that it cannot OHKO many threats, and that's in RU, with high BP attacks and 123 attack. Thus, it is a good late game sweeper; something which Delphox, with it's weakness to all forms of entry hazard and lack of priority (like talonflame or scizor) or speed boosting (like lucario and blaziken) or pure high speed (like greninja or noivern) is completely outclassed in doing. And again, that terrible terrible defensive typing. I cannot stress that enough.

Now, onto other business. 1/3 of a pokemon's life that has a 4x resist and a fair bit of bulk is hefty as hell. Once you factor in SR or spikes or minor damage, that Kingdra can only switch into V-Create twice and survive (and that's assuming that it's at full health to begin with, which it probably won't be if you're a good player and not throwing out v-creates willy-nilly). That is a big deal given that aforementioned 4x resist. Imagine if ferrothorn could only switch into a grass move twice, or if heatran could only take two bug type attacks before he died. V-Create is a great move, and you are kidding yourself if you think it's not. When used right, it is a nuclear bomb. Also, you're ignoring my other examples of bolt strike, searing shot, u-turn, thunderbolt, psyshock, the newly buffed energy ball, brick break (if you wanted), shadow ball, etc. Beats the hell out of fire move/shadow ball/psyshock/weak HP coverage move. You also mention that it failed to make much a of a splash in OU. What makes Delphox more likely to than Victini, then? the frailer build?

And man, you just showed that Mega gengar, a pokemon with 170 base Special attack and STAB on shadow ball, maybe gets a 3hko on a defensive heatran. Showing that the strongest possible attack of a given type 3hkos a pokemon doesn't really prove that Delphox is going to do much better with it's shadow ball. Yes, the nerf to steel hurts; but heatran has the stats and typing and ability to capitilize on what it does have, which is a lot. People are counting down the days for heatran to be released just so they can use him to counter the threats tearing up OU right now, like Talonflame. But even that's irrelevant, since we're not talking about Heatran's viabilty; we're talking about Delphox's.
 
Yes, speed was part of it. But it was a lot that he just didn't have the power, which is the angle that I am trying to go for, and using to demonstrate that coverage does not mean kills. It's why his more common sets in RU (which is where it sits as of BW2, btw, and one with a significantly lower speed standard) tend to run choice bands or mixed sets now, because otherwise he doesn't stack up. Go ahead and look up electivire's set right now. It says outright that it cannot OHKO many threats, and that's in RU, with high BP attacks and 123 attack. Thus, it is a good late game sweeper; something which Delphox, with it's weakness to all forms of entry hazard and lack of priority (like talonflame or scizor) or speed boosting (like lucario and blaziken) or pure high speed (like greninja or noivern) is completely outclassed in doing. And again, that terrible terrible defensive typing. I cannot stress that enough.

Now, onto other business. 1/3 of a pokemon's life that has a 4x resist and a fair bit of bulk is hefty as hell. Once you factor in SR or spikes or minor damage, that Kingdra can only switch into V-Create twice and survive (and that's assuming that it's at full health to begin with, which it probably won't be if you're a good player and not throwing out v-creates willy-nilly). That is a big deal given that aforementioned 4x resist. Imagine if ferrothorn could only switch into a grass move twice, or if heatran could only take two bug type attacks before he died. V-Create is a great move, and you are kidding yourself if you think it's not. When used right, it is a nuclear bomb. Also, you're ignoring my other examples of bolt strike, searing shot, u-turn, thunderbolt, psyshock, the newly buffed energy ball, brick break (if you wanted), shadow ball, etc. Beats the hell out of fire move/shadow ball/psyshock/weak HP coverage move. You also mention that it failed to make much a of a splash in OU. What makes Delphox more likely to than Victini, then? the frailer build?

And man, you just showed that Mega gengar, a pokemon with 170 base Special attack and STAB on shadow ball, maybe gets a 3hko on a defensive heatran. Showing that the strongest possible attack of a given type 3hkos a pokemon doesn't really prove that Delphox is going to do much better with it's shadow ball. Yes, the nerf to steel hurts; but heatran has the stats and typing and ability to capitilize on what it does have, which is a lot. People are counting down the days for heatran to be released just so they can use him to counter the threats tearing up OU right now, like Talonflame. But even that's irrelevant, since we're not talking about Heatran's viabilty; we're talking about Delphox's.
Not ignoring those, just not commenting on what I don't need to. Those moves are fine, though it is sad that he only has 100 base Attack and Special Attack.

I think V-Create is a good move(but not great), but you are forced to switch out once you use it or lose to just about anything faster than you after the drop. It's be great on a pokemon with a better typing and more bulk, like Rayquaza(who got in an event). As it is, you have to rely on wither Victini or Smeargle for it, and we all know how weak Smeargle is. You kill your viability with repeated use, as you get slower and frailer as you use it. If it had 120 speed or something, I could see it being even better. As it is, it just forces Victini to repeatedly switch in and out to maintain staying power, and that's hazardous to his health. Delphox does not have that issue

And my point about Delphox is that it happens to just have enough base speed to work, and has decent moves. Grass Knot tends to hit hard, and Fire Blast/Overheat have respectable power. It has Calm Mind to boost, should it come in on a resisted hit(Ice, Fairy, Psychic, and Grass are common enough). Add Shadow Ball for coverage, and you can deal good damage. It's not simple, but it'll be workable at least. I'm not arguing for OU, though I do think it's viable enough to work in enough cases, but it definitely isn't shit. Dunsparce is shit, man. Delphox is just OK.

The main problem with Special Defensive Heatran is that it loses out on that great Special Attack stat in exchange for that bulk. But that's all I'll say on that.
 
Not ignoring those, just not commenting on what I don't need to. Those moves are fine, though it is sad that he only has 100 base Attack and Special Attack.

I think V-Create is a good move(but not great), but you are forced to switch out once you use it or lose to just about anything faster than you after the drop. It's be great on a pokemon with a better typing and more bulk, like Rayquaza(who got in an event). As it is, you have to rely on wither Victini or Smeargle for it, and we all know how weak Smeargle is. You kill your viability with repeated use, as you get slower and frailer as you use it. If it had 120 speed or something, I could see it being even better. As it is, it just forces Victini to repeatedly switch in and out to maintain staying power, and that's hazardous to his health. Delphox does not have that issue

And my point about Delphox is that it happens to just have enough base speed to work, and has decent moves. Grass Knot tends to hit hard, and Fire Blast/Overheat have respectable power. It has Calm Mind to boost, should it come in on a resisted hit(Ice, Fairy, Psychic, and Grass are common enough). Add Shadow Ball for coverage, and you can deal good damage. It's not simple, but it'll be workable at least. I'm not arguing for OU, though I do think it's viable enough to work in enough cases, but it definitely isn't shit. Dunsparce is shit, man. Delphox is just OK.

The main problem with Special Defensive Heatran is that it loses out on that great Special Attack stat in exchange for that bulk. But that's all I'll say on that.

You aren't forced to switch out if you use it. Especially if you use scarf Victini, who can attack again afterwards at normal speed. It's physical overheat (which, btw, you mention in your same reply there as a move for delphox) - It's a hit and run move, but you can stay in again and use it if the timing is right. Except for things like Houndoom, chandelure, and snorlax (though he can still 2hko most snorlax, and outspeed again) and maybe a few others, Victini's V-create mows through UU. That one hit is all you'll need half the time. And like I said, you shouldn't just be throwing v-creates around anyway, until you have a feel for the opponents team and their playstyle. Also, when you factor in the higher BP of Victini's fire stab and coverage, that difference in offense is insignificant (And this is nitpicky, but Victini is actually bulkier than Rayquaza).

And yes, Delphox will have that issue of switching. This isn't 4th and 3rd gen anymore; 104 speed is not what it used to be. It's good, but it's not so good that it makes an otherwise mediocre pokemon viable. You can use that Calm Mind boost, but on the turn you use it, in comes a talonflame or a greninja or a terrakion or keldeo or an aegislash or dugtrio and you're outsped and screwed. Or in comes a tyranitar and you're trapped. A lot of pokemon check/counter Delphox, is what I'm saying; it will be forced out a lot, just by virtue of it's terrible typing and only slightly above average speed. You can try to fix that by forgoing the boost and running a scarf or specs, but then you're locked into one move and switching out all the time anyway. There really isn't anything it can do in OU; if you want to CM, I challenge you to tell me Volcarona is not a better set up fire type in OU than Delphox; and don't even start on Blaziken.

And then when you go down to UU, the land of fire types, you have to compete against Chandelure, Victini, Arcanine, darmanitan, and Houndoom (who completely counters everything Delphox does, too). They all have their own tricks that are significantly better than Delphox's, and fire is not the kind of type you want to run more than one of on your team lightly (unless you got a sun team, but those things are already so pressed for teamslots as it is i doubt delphox will find it's way onto one).

The one thing it and only it could do (that was still kinda gimmicky) was shuffle the opponents items around, with magician+trick. But this is easily countered just by switching in a mega.

The problem isn't that Delphox is bad, the problem is that for every single thing that it does, there is a pokemon that does it 2x better. Once you get past the initial phase of "omg delphox is my starter and I want to use it on my PS team lol" it's gonna drop real far simply because people will go back to using the many, many fire types that do the job better. To put it in one last perspective; you brought up heatran trading his special attack
for special bulk. +Nature Delphox's Sp. Attack is as high as neutral nature Heatran's special attack. Meaning that Heatran is still better offensively, even without a Sp.A boosting nature. Delphox is just completely outclassed.
 

alexwolf

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Most of the starters that are viable in OU already have their own threads so there is no need for this thread anymore.
 
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