All depends on how lucky you get really. One miss against the sub sd version will let it get a free sd, and 2 misses means an sd and a sub that has to be broken through.
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The Suicide Sweeper...
- Thread starter RaikouLover
- Start date
That pretty much sums up this set. You only really stand a chance if you learn ice shard.
I was using a spread like this on my new team since I finally added Garchomp to it. Guess this means I have to make a new cool team. =( I had originally used Swords Dance Life Orb like everyone else, but then I considered how two Swords Dances (or SD + 2 hits) is stronger than SD + LO, and I can use any other item, so I made mine survive Ice Beams.
I wouldn't call that set a "suicide sweeper", since the whole point of the defensive EV spread is to live long enough to finish your sweep!
I've been using scarfChomp with 401 HP for quite a while now, and I can testify that it's defenses are much better than people give it credit for. It makes a decent switch into Infernape with its nifty Fire resistance. Living through Ice Beams and HP Ices are a nifty side effect too. It is cool to be able to Outrage right into someone else's Gliscor/Hippo and live through the Ice Fangs long enough to try to sweep later.
This was my set:
Garchomp (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Sand Veil
EVs: 176 HP/80 Atk/252 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Dragon Claw
- Earthquake
- Outrage
- Fire Blast
Even with a -spatk nature, you are still OHKOing Forry/Scizor and 2HKOing Skarmory in every reasonable situation, anyways, and I didn't want to subtract from its defenses with all of those HP EVs invested. These EVs give it exactly 12 less atk than jolly, 252 Atk EV, scarfChomp (which many people use).
This is a pretty good thread. If more people learned how to make good EV spreads like the one in the original post, competition as a whole would be much better and more varied. Good work, TC.
I've been using scarfChomp with 401 HP for quite a while now, and I can testify that it's defenses are much better than people give it credit for. It makes a decent switch into Infernape with its nifty Fire resistance. Living through Ice Beams and HP Ices are a nifty side effect too. It is cool to be able to Outrage right into someone else's Gliscor/Hippo and live through the Ice Fangs long enough to try to sweep later.
This was my set:
Garchomp (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Sand Veil
EVs: 176 HP/80 Atk/252 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Dragon Claw
- Earthquake
- Outrage
- Fire Blast
Even with a -spatk nature, you are still OHKOing Forry/Scizor and 2HKOing Skarmory in every reasonable situation, anyways, and I didn't want to subtract from its defenses with all of those HP EVs invested. These EVs give it exactly 12 less atk than jolly, 252 Atk EV, scarfChomp (which many people use).
This is a pretty good thread. If more people learned how to make good EV spreads like the one in the original post, competition as a whole would be much better and more varied. Good work, TC.
Damn, I even need to put some Sp. Atk EVs into my Blizzard pokemon on a hail team now. Thought I could get away with 0EVs forever, guess not.
Nice set, well done. Priority will force it out of course, making it a pretty weak fighter for the rest of the game. Nonetheless, it looks like a great set on paper and I'd like to face it eventually on shoddybattle.
Nice set, well done. Priority will force it out of course, making it a pretty weak fighter for the rest of the game. Nonetheless, it looks like a great set on paper and I'd like to face it eventually on shoddybattle.
hello, I'm weavile and i have Ice shard!
and i kill salac berried garchomps easily! lol
He was responding to the guy that posted this:
With the Yasche set, it gets no speed boost.
I think it's a nice set, although it needs a bit of shoe polish. I kind of want to try out a Sub/Salac/SD Chomp now, basically a Lucario with higher attack and speed and a glaring Mamoswine weakness. :3
Hello,
It appears that BulkyDos may counter this.
If it pops up, you switch in Bulkydos, activating intimidate. Now Garchomp has a choice. Dance again, or attack. Because you Sword Dance on the Switch, Gyarados is still at 100% health.
If it attacks under 1 Sword Dance, Outrage, the most powerful attack to use on Bulkydos does 49-58 % damage on it. Dragon Claw does MAX 39%.
With the threat of that stupid berry out there, Gyrados HAS to Dragon Dance, otherwise you activate the Berry.
Now, Gyarados outspeeds Garchomp and Ice Fang does 112%. Bye bye Garchomp, barring Sandveil Hax. If Gyarados misses, he probably will die to Outrage. If Garchomp used Dragon Claw, he's still around to attempt Ice Fang again.
Now, what if Garchomp is stupid enough to Sword Dance again? Dragon Claw won't OHKO (I'm getting MAX 58%) and Outrage won't OHKO either (Max 86%). None of that matters as Gyrados is NOW faster than him, and Ice Fangs him to death. If Gyarados misses, he's not dead and has another chance to Fang him.
A VERY mean set. I have serious concerns that anything other than BulkyDos will do the job.
It appears that BulkyDos may counter this.
If it pops up, you switch in Bulkydos, activating intimidate. Now Garchomp has a choice. Dance again, or attack. Because you Sword Dance on the Switch, Gyarados is still at 100% health.
If it attacks under 1 Sword Dance, Outrage, the most powerful attack to use on Bulkydos does 49-58 % damage on it. Dragon Claw does MAX 39%.
With the threat of that stupid berry out there, Gyrados HAS to Dragon Dance, otherwise you activate the Berry.
Now, Gyarados outspeeds Garchomp and Ice Fang does 112%. Bye bye Garchomp, barring Sandveil Hax. If Gyarados misses, he probably will die to Outrage. If Garchomp used Dragon Claw, he's still around to attempt Ice Fang again.
Now, what if Garchomp is stupid enough to Sword Dance again? Dragon Claw won't OHKO (I'm getting MAX 58%) and Outrage won't OHKO either (Max 86%). None of that matters as Gyrados is NOW faster than him, and Ice Fangs him to death. If Gyarados misses, he's not dead and has another chance to Fang him.
A VERY mean set. I have serious concerns that anything other than BulkyDos will do the job.
Thats not even technically a true counter when you consider the following.
-Stone Edge is a perfectly viable move on Garchomp. Rock + Ground afterall is still an amazing offensive combination.
-This EV spread isn't even technically restricted to this moveset alone. Its a very good spread that actually works with a few other sets too.
-Stealth Rock. Gyarados's worst enemy...
What worries more is that the minimum to guarantee a OHKO with HP Ice on Garchomp is 443 s.atk and the minimum to even OHKO is 380 s.atk...I'll make this clear and concise.
HP ICE IS NO LONGER A GARCHOMP COUNTER.
This fact alone worries me greatly...
-Stone Edge is a perfectly viable move on Garchomp. Rock + Ground afterall is still an amazing offensive combination.
-This EV spread isn't even technically restricted to this moveset alone. Its a very good spread that actually works with a few other sets too.
-Stealth Rock. Gyarados's worst enemy...
What worries more is that the minimum to guarantee a OHKO with HP Ice on Garchomp is 443 s.atk and the minimum to even OHKO is 380 s.atk...I'll make this clear and concise.
HP ICE IS NO LONGER A GARCHOMP COUNTER.
This fact alone worries me greatly...
True, but what would you lose to pick up Stone Edge? Fire Fang? Suddenly Skarmory is back in as is Bronzong. Earthquake? Dragon Claw/Outrage?
EDIT: After calculation: Stone Edge, One Sword Dance=64%. Add in Stealth Rock Damage of 25% and Sand Storm at 6%, you get 95% damage. Gyarados is still alive, and now faster than you and will OHKO you with Ice Fang Barring Hax.
With Sword Dance x2 you do max 96%, meaning with Stealth Rock Damage and/or Sand Storm Gyarados dies, but its all moot. He came in on dance 1, danced himself on your dance 2, and is now faster than you when you go to strike. Dead. Barring Hax.
Yes, but again, you need Sword Dance for the Power so you either lose Fire Fang and pick up a weakness to some of the traditional Dragon Walls, or you lose one of your STAB's.
That's why you Rapid Spin. If you don't, that's ok. Rocks + One Sword Dance Outrage won't KO Gyarados even in the Sandstorm. That's MAX 25%+58%+6% (Sandstorm)=89%. Gyarados Outspeeds now, meaning you die to Ice Fang barring Hax.
If you Sword Dance twice, then Gyarados has a chance to DD for Free, and you die to fang, barring Hax. If you do miss, Outrage could kill you, while Dragon Claw still won't.
EDIT: And seriously, I have to add, how many advantages do you plan on Garchomp having? He only has Sand Veil Hax in a Sandstorm, and Stealth Rock is only an issue if you let it stick or it's up in the first place. Can't we all agree that if you let Garchomp in, Sword Dance x2, with Stealth Rock and Sandstorm you're probably in trouble?
Actually, it doesn't. It assumes that Gyarados comes on on Sword Dance #1, which is very likely. The plan is Garchomp comes in, dances x2. I switch on the Dance 1 and I'm in.
That is very troubling. Essentially, you only counter this set with PHYSICAL Ice attacks. Very worrying.
Even then, if I'm using Metalkid properly, you'd need:
These numbers all assume no STAB
426 Atk vs Garchomp's 226 Def 357 HP to guarantee a OHKO on Ice Fang
370 Atk vs Garchomp's 226 Def 357 HP to guarantee a OHKO on Ice Punch
693 Atk vs Garchomp's 226 Def 357 HP to guarantee a OHKO on Ice Shard
512 Atk vs Garhcomp's 226 Def 357 HP to guarantee a OHKO on a Skill Linked Icicle Spear (or a 5 shot Icicle Spear)
These numbers all assume STAB
282 STAB Atk vs Garchomp's 226 Def 357 HP to guarantee a OHKO on Ice Fang
244 STAB Atk vs Garchomp's 226 Def 357 HP to guarantee a OHKO on Ice Punch
457 STAB Atk vs Garchomp's 226 Def 357 HP to guarantee a OHKO on Ice Shard
324 STAB Atk vs Garhcomp's 226 Def 357 HP to guarantee a OHKO on a Skill Linked Icicle Spear (or a 5 shot Icicle Spear)
So even Physical isn't exactly easy pickings, though Ice Punch is looking pretty good. Too bad you would NEED a stat boosting item or move to actually hit 370 on any none Ice type who learns Ice Punch, unless you can somehow get Regigigas into play and attacking that first turn.
Then, assuming you put a choice band/life orb/expert belt/etc on your Ice Puncher, they still need to either be faster than Garchomp (of which, only Sneasel and Weaville are), or pray he gets greedy and pops off another Swords Dance.
Using an Ice Fanger, if you got their attack high enough via item, the only ones who are still fast enough to pull it off (or again, hoping Garchomp goes for a second Swords Dance) are Aerodactyl and Floatzel.
Icicle Spear doesn't have anyone faster than Garchomp, so they would have to rely on Garchomp going for a second Swords Dance.
This means you would HAVE to use an Ice Sharder with an item boosting it's attack to 693 or higher to ensure you killed off Garchomp. This is the only way to really be sure you won't get killed hoping for a second Swords Dance.
Other options outside of Ice Shard, though they may not be optimal for use outside of countering Garchomp, are:
Choice Scarf Abomasnow, Choice Band Floatzel, and Choice Band Aerodactyl. Everything else needs to either get lucky on dances, or use Ice Shard.
Those calcs are without STAB, right? Surely CBweavile can OHKO with ice shard, it has a Quad Weakness!
Mamoswine would have to be a steady counter to garchomp. I'm thinking life orb, max hp and attack (i.e. whatever the best defensive EV combo is with 252 attack and adamant) and ice shard/avalanche.
Switch in on a SD, use avalanche, if it dances, ice shard next turn, if it attacks, 120 BP should OHKO, right?
Mamoswine would have to be a steady counter to garchomp. I'm thinking life orb, max hp and attack (i.e. whatever the best defensive EV combo is with 252 attack and adamant) and ice shard/avalanche.
Switch in on a SD, use avalanche, if it dances, ice shard next turn, if it attacks, 120 BP should OHKO, right?
Yeah, at first I did it without STAB, but just re-editted with STAB added.
My favorite Pokemon begs to differ. >=O
Lol look at his avie.
But Hariyama doesn't learn Ice Punch, or any Ice move for that matter.
I'd check that again, Hariyama learns all 3 of the elemental punches through Emerald.
I thought it was Gallade...
So he does...
Serebii and Marriland need to list Emerald Move Tutor moves on Pokemon in the D/P part of the Pokedex. =/
this is more deadly then any of u have said so far. you are all talking about how to counter it. step back for a second. the only good counters so far are weavile, and it has to be cb w/ shard, mamoswine, and bulkydos. remember that we have 6 pokemon. not just chomp. so if a counter switches in, switch out! bulkydos leads and dies usually anyway and mamoswine isnt all that common neither is weavile. in short, people are going to have to pack priority moves or save their bulkydoses or this is going to be out of hand. this thing is a B.E.A.S.T