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The Ultimate discussion - Best lead?
- Thread starter PWNstar!
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Leads, IMO, should be able to do (at the very least) two of these:
~ Intimidate
~ Sweep Potential (by that I mean be able to kill one pokemon on the 1st move under good circumstances)
~ Stealth Rock
~ Some form of team support (weather, Trick Room, you name it).
~ Counter some popular leads
~ Sleep
I lead with Swampert, as it counters popular leads (Hippowdon and non CB TTar don't do anything really) and can Stealth Rock. I also was testing a lead Focus Sash Sceptile with Counter and Endeavor. I was surprised to know that (on Shoddy at least) when a pokemon uses U-turn and you use Counter, the pokemon they switch to takes the counter damage. In the end, I found Sceptile is only good about 1/3 of the time there, but in that small percentage, I can take out at least 2 pokemon using Sceptile alone.
Breloom actually covers 3 of the things i stated above; counters Weavile and possibly TTar with Mach Punch (both popular leads), can use sleep, and has sweeping potential with a substitute up.
~ Intimidate
~ Sweep Potential (by that I mean be able to kill one pokemon on the 1st move under good circumstances)
~ Stealth Rock
~ Some form of team support (weather, Trick Room, you name it).
~ Counter some popular leads
~ Sleep
I lead with Swampert, as it counters popular leads (Hippowdon and non CB TTar don't do anything really) and can Stealth Rock. I also was testing a lead Focus Sash Sceptile with Counter and Endeavor. I was surprised to know that (on Shoddy at least) when a pokemon uses U-turn and you use Counter, the pokemon they switch to takes the counter damage. In the end, I found Sceptile is only good about 1/3 of the time there, but in that small percentage, I can take out at least 2 pokemon using Sceptile alone.
Breloom actually covers 3 of the things i stated above; counters Weavile and possibly TTar with Mach Punch (both popular leads), can use sleep, and has sweeping potential with a substitute up.
Scarfed Medicham beats everything barring Bronzong, Hippowdon and Swampert on this list so it'd be interesting to see as a lead.
Tri-Attack, Thunder Bolt, Dark Pulse, Ice Beam maybe???
I dunno, just trying. Maybe Hidden Power Fighting over Ice Beam for Tyranitar coverage, but then it can't OHKO Salamence i don't think.
The only problem with Choice Scarf Porygon-Z is that it just can't do quite everything you need it to. Now the things that I personally think Porygon-Z (and most other pokemon) need to be an effective Choice Scarfer are as follows:
1.) Outspeed Scarchomp: Porygon-Z can do this, but only by running a +speed nature and a whole bunch of speed EV's. The downside is that you lose power. I'll adress this later.
2.) Type coverage: Lol, Porygon-Z is the the king of coverage.
3.) Ability to KO other leads: This is where Porygon-Z drops a little. Even with 135 base SpAtk and great type coverage, Porygon-Z can't OHKO the majority of the pokemon in the top 10 list. For example:
A Modest Porygon-Z with a Choice Scarf has a 75% chance of OHKO'ing a 4 HP / 0 SpDef Gengar with Dark Pulse. A Timid Porygon-Z (needed to outspeed Garchomp) only has a 18.75% chance of OHKO'ing the same Gengar. Weavile will be 2HKO'd by Tri-Attack either way. If you run HP Fighting, Weavile will be OHKO'd. Tyranitar however, is only 2HKO'd by HP Fighting thanks to it's SpDef boost in SS. Infernape is also 2HKO'd by an Adaptability Tri-Attack from a Timid Porygon-Z. Are you beginning to see the problem?
Porygon-Z deals a lot of damage to a lot of stuff, but doesn't OHKO much without Nasty Plot or Choice Specs. The solution? Download.
Most of the pokemon on the top 10 lead list will have Def > SpDef, meaning Porygon-Z gets an auto 1.5x SpAtk boost immediatly. Only the following pokemon will not give Porygon-Z a SpAtk boost:
Gengar
Weavile
Bronzong (depends)
Abomasnow
Also, Infernape and Salamence are toss-ups, since they have equal Def and SpDef. Salamence is OHKO'd by Ice Beam anyways, only Infernape isn't OHKO'd without the boost (assuming you run Timid). IMO, Download, while always thought to be the inferior ability for Porygon-Z, may very well be worthwhile in a lead, since it gives Porygon-Z the power it needs while being able to OHKO just about everything on the top 10 list.
If you want to go beyond the top 10 list, Download still seems viable. Roughly half of the top 20 leads will give Porygon-Z a SpAtk boost, and you have a 50% chance of getting the boost on 4 others (Ambipom, Salamence, Infernape and Crobat)
The last issue is HP Fighting. HP Fighting is the only way to have a chance at OHKO'ing Tyranitar (even then it's not a 100% KO, and Boah has no chance at being OHKO'd) and Weavile (since it doesn't give you a SpAtk boost with Download) However, this means you must make a sacrifice to Porygon-Z's moveset. My opionion? Thunderbolt.
The only thing worth TBolting is Gyarados, and that's so obvious that Gyarados isn't going to stay in to take it. So, if you wanted to use a Choice Scarf Porygon-Z as an anti-lead, here is what I would suggest:
Porygon-Z@Choice Scarf
Timid
8 HP / 252 SpAtk / 248 Spd
Download
-Tri Attack
-Ice Beam
-Dark Pulse
-HP Fighting
This is a standard set, but effective nontheless. I am now going to go back and re-read my post to make sure that it makes sense.
1.) Outspeed Scarchomp: Porygon-Z can do this, but only by running a +speed nature and a whole bunch of speed EV's. The downside is that you lose power. I'll adress this later.
2.) Type coverage: Lol, Porygon-Z is the the king of coverage.
3.) Ability to KO other leads: This is where Porygon-Z drops a little. Even with 135 base SpAtk and great type coverage, Porygon-Z can't OHKO the majority of the pokemon in the top 10 list. For example:
A Modest Porygon-Z with a Choice Scarf has a 75% chance of OHKO'ing a 4 HP / 0 SpDef Gengar with Dark Pulse. A Timid Porygon-Z (needed to outspeed Garchomp) only has a 18.75% chance of OHKO'ing the same Gengar. Weavile will be 2HKO'd by Tri-Attack either way. If you run HP Fighting, Weavile will be OHKO'd. Tyranitar however, is only 2HKO'd by HP Fighting thanks to it's SpDef boost in SS. Infernape is also 2HKO'd by an Adaptability Tri-Attack from a Timid Porygon-Z. Are you beginning to see the problem?
Porygon-Z deals a lot of damage to a lot of stuff, but doesn't OHKO much without Nasty Plot or Choice Specs. The solution? Download.
Most of the pokemon on the top 10 lead list will have Def > SpDef, meaning Porygon-Z gets an auto 1.5x SpAtk boost immediatly. Only the following pokemon will not give Porygon-Z a SpAtk boost:
Gengar
Weavile
Bronzong (depends)
Abomasnow
Also, Infernape and Salamence are toss-ups, since they have equal Def and SpDef. Salamence is OHKO'd by Ice Beam anyways, only Infernape isn't OHKO'd without the boost (assuming you run Timid). IMO, Download, while always thought to be the inferior ability for Porygon-Z, may very well be worthwhile in a lead, since it gives Porygon-Z the power it needs while being able to OHKO just about everything on the top 10 list.
If you want to go beyond the top 10 list, Download still seems viable. Roughly half of the top 20 leads will give Porygon-Z a SpAtk boost, and you have a 50% chance of getting the boost on 4 others (Ambipom, Salamence, Infernape and Crobat)
The last issue is HP Fighting. HP Fighting is the only way to have a chance at OHKO'ing Tyranitar (even then it's not a 100% KO, and Boah has no chance at being OHKO'd) and Weavile (since it doesn't give you a SpAtk boost with Download) However, this means you must make a sacrifice to Porygon-Z's moveset. My opionion? Thunderbolt.
The only thing worth TBolting is Gyarados, and that's so obvious that Gyarados isn't going to stay in to take it. So, if you wanted to use a Choice Scarf Porygon-Z as an anti-lead, here is what I would suggest:
Porygon-Z@Choice Scarf
Timid
8 HP / 252 SpAtk / 248 Spd
Download
-Tri Attack
-Ice Beam
-Dark Pulse
-HP Fighting
This is a standard set, but effective nontheless. I am now going to go back and re-read my post to make sure that it makes sense.
I'm currently running SpecsMie with Thunderbolt/ Surf/ Ice Beam/ Psychic. It trashes a lot of common leads. Thunderbolt covers gyarados leads, surf scares away hippos and tyranitars or has STAB against whatever switches in. Ice beam beats dragons, although it has trouble against the occasional ScarfChomp. It also covers Breloom and Jumpluff (who i've encountered a lot recently) leads. Psychic was mostly anti Breloom/heracross. However, i'm thinking Grass Knot may actually be more useful for dealing with swamperts.
The main problem I experience is thunderbolting the gyarados lead to get Arena Trapped by the Dugtrio switch-in. Usually, however, it's just getting locked into a NVE attack and having to switch. Either way, it's good for forcing immediate switches.
The main problem I experience is thunderbolting the gyarados lead to get Arena Trapped by the Dugtrio switch-in. Usually, however, it's just getting locked into a NVE attack and having to switch. Either way, it's good for forcing immediate switches.
Exactly. BulkyGyara has 236 Def and 234 Sp.Def. I changed his Sp.Def to surpass his Def by 1 point just for this. XD
Lee, that was probably the most deserved thread jack ever.
Anywho, I say that Perish Trapping Gengar is one of the best leads out there, as it fits most of the criteria. Seriously, Protect on the first turn if it's not obvious, trap the switch in, and, if it's slower, you just killed one of your opponent's pokes while remaining unscathed.
Anywho, I say that Perish Trapping Gengar is one of the best leads out there, as it fits most of the criteria. Seriously, Protect on the first turn if it's not obvious, trap the switch in, and, if it's slower, you just killed one of your opponent's pokes while remaining unscathed.
Um, as I've discussed before, there's about a million that can work. From Choice Scarf Froslass, Typhlosion, Heracross, and Flygon to the standards like BulkyGyara, Weavile, Hippowdon / Tyranitar / Obamasnow, Swampert, Bronzong, Metagross, etc, it is all a matter of preference on what you exactly want to accomplish in the beginning. Some like to set up Stealth Rock early while others want to get up and sweep.
I lead with:
Roserade@leftovers + natural cure
-Sleep Powder
-Spikes
-Leaf Storm
-HP Fire
It has 285 speed, 349 special attack, and the rest into defense to be able to take a breloom focus punch and a weavile pursuit.
Out of all my leads, this easily takes the cake for most effective. Note, I have a Swampert to take ANY attack that the opponent would switch with/use against Roserade.
It really depends on your supporting case for the lead; however, basic qualities like being faster than Breloom, stopping the weather pokes, stopping the stealth rocks are all essential.
Roserade does that.
Roserade@leftovers + natural cure
-Sleep Powder
-Spikes
-Leaf Storm
-HP Fire
It has 285 speed, 349 special attack, and the rest into defense to be able to take a breloom focus punch and a weavile pursuit.
Out of all my leads, this easily takes the cake for most effective. Note, I have a Swampert to take ANY attack that the opponent would switch with/use against Roserade.
It really depends on your supporting case for the lead; however, basic qualities like being faster than Breloom, stopping the weather pokes, stopping the stealth rocks are all essential.
Roserade does that.
I personally Lead with Aerodactyl with Taunt and Life Orb its extremely fast and if Porygon Z comes i switch to Swampert to take the hit
well, i lead withdrifblim on shoddy, it outspeeds togekiss and brelloom, getting subs up before they status, (getting 295 speed i believe) Calm minding up and such. i had charge beam for guardos and baton passing, but got rid of it for shadow ball.
i have never seen a gengar lead, but in UU i got owned by haunter...
i have never seen a gengar lead, but in UU i got owned by haunter...
I have a single important concept when I think of a lead.
A lead must swing the momentum of the battle in your favor.
This is the only thing I think about when it comes to leads. Momentum is not simply killing off the opponent's lead, or laying down stealth rocks.
The most popular lead right now is Gyarados, and I can explain it in terms of momentum. With Dragon Dance, he gets faster and stronger simultaneously, turning some 2-hit KOs into OHKOs, and allowing him to outspeed opponents. Taunt prevents the opponent from recapturing the momentum of the battle.
The idea is this: in Pokemon, a single pokemon who manages to set up will generally rape the rest of the opponent's team. If you let bellyzard setup, most of the time, you're screwed. Even with 6 pokemon, there is a good chance you won't have something that can take Belly Drum Blaze Fire Punches, and you probably don't have anything faster than a Salaced Charizard. Even if you did, you have to deal with the sub.
That is momentum.
Stealth Rock leads (hippowdon and Skarm) can be seen as a generalization of this. They capture the momentum as you turn some 3 hit KOs into 2-hit KOs, and you turn some 2-hit KOs into OHKOs. It isn't nearly as much momentum as a Belly-Zard, but you still get a bit more on your side.
Further, if you have the momentum, strategies once available to the opponent no longer exist. Take Walrein for example. Walrein requires momentum before he actually works 100% of the time. He cannot switch into a CB Metagross and expect to win.
However, if the Stallrein had advantage from momentum, then CB Metagross cannot expect to switch into a Stallrein and win.
A lead must swing the momentum of the battle in your favor.
This is the only thing I think about when it comes to leads. Momentum is not simply killing off the opponent's lead, or laying down stealth rocks.
The most popular lead right now is Gyarados, and I can explain it in terms of momentum. With Dragon Dance, he gets faster and stronger simultaneously, turning some 2-hit KOs into OHKOs, and allowing him to outspeed opponents. Taunt prevents the opponent from recapturing the momentum of the battle.
The idea is this: in Pokemon, a single pokemon who manages to set up will generally rape the rest of the opponent's team. If you let bellyzard setup, most of the time, you're screwed. Even with 6 pokemon, there is a good chance you won't have something that can take Belly Drum Blaze Fire Punches, and you probably don't have anything faster than a Salaced Charizard. Even if you did, you have to deal with the sub.
That is momentum.
Stealth Rock leads (hippowdon and Skarm) can be seen as a generalization of this. They capture the momentum as you turn some 3 hit KOs into 2-hit KOs, and you turn some 2-hit KOs into OHKOs. It isn't nearly as much momentum as a Belly-Zard, but you still get a bit more on your side.
Further, if you have the momentum, strategies once available to the opponent no longer exist. Take Walrein for example. Walrein requires momentum before he actually works 100% of the time. He cannot switch into a CB Metagross and expect to win.
However, if the Stallrein had advantage from momentum, then CB Metagross cannot expect to switch into a Stallrein and win.
I run donphan as a lead. Stealth rock if its not a threat, roar if its ninjask, eq for type coverage, and rapid spin. However, my team has a huge problem taking sleep statuses, so its usually donphan who gets the shaft.
You raise very good points.
I have a few of my own to add; obviously you can't get all of these in the one starter, but I feel they're somewhat noteworthy points:
Intimidate - Being able to force a physical threat to switch due to an attack drop can leave you in good stead. Weavile loses a lot of it's charm as a lead with -1 Attack.
Immunity to Intimidate - If you're leading, you don't want to be put at a disadvantage because your physical lead has had it's Attack stat lowered. The 'immunity' I speak of could either be Clear Body, or even simply not caring about having your Attack lowered. SpecsMence is a prime example of this - not only does Attack not matter to Salamence in this scenario, but it also dishes out an Intimidate of it's own, reducing the target's Attack stat.
OMGosh octillery can hit every common lead for SE!! charge beam... surf... rock blast that foe...energy ball... flamethrower that... psycic gengar... 4 moveslots makes it so you can't hit the odd one.
- Gyarados (8392 leads)
- Hippowdon (7493 leads)
- Salamence (6600 leads)
- Gengar (6402 leads)
- Tyranitar (6061 leads)
- Bronzong (5137 leads)
- Weavile (5054 leads)
- Swampert (5050 leads)
- Infernape (4276 leads)
- Abomasnow (4264 leads)
Lots of things can hit the top 10 leads with super effective hits if you think about it. And things like Trace or Clear Body against Gyarados may be more important that a super effective move.
Lead countering are overrated because there's always the thing called switching to your own counter. If a counter is to be described as something that can switch in with little or no risk to itself, then what advantage has your opponent gained by having a more favorable lead and forcing you to switch apart from a little damage. Keeping in mind that taking a status on the switch should not incapacitate your counter in any major way such as switching a sleep talker into an opposing breloom.
In my experience that little damage has rarely, if ever, affected the outcome of a battle. It's really no different to switching in a counter in the middle of the battle.
I think that the only time when a lead actually matters is when it helps to set up your own team and begins execution of your game plan. Too many people try to make a lead be able to kill the top 10 leads, or the top 100 leads. But it's pointless because they will just switch out to a counter which will then in turn force you to switch out. So what if you have a scarfed porygonZ who can OHKO my lead? I will just switch to my blissey and shrug off the damage, forcing you to switch just as I did and so the switching game continues.
What a lead should be doing, rather than trying to counter every other lead, is begin setting up your team right away. Which is why weather inducers, spikers and baton passers are possibly the most useful leads. Taunting is also up there because while it doesn't set up your team exactly, it stops your opponent from setting up their own team by spiking or stating up.
Does it matter that maybe 5, 6 or 7 or more out of the top 10 leads will force you to switch? Unlikely. The other times that you stay in, you can help your team immediately. What do you achieve by having a "lead countering" lead? Pounding uselessly on your opponent's counter and doing diddly squat. How much have you helped your team by doing this?
In my experience that little damage has rarely, if ever, affected the outcome of a battle. It's really no different to switching in a counter in the middle of the battle.
I think that the only time when a lead actually matters is when it helps to set up your own team and begins execution of your game plan. Too many people try to make a lead be able to kill the top 10 leads, or the top 100 leads. But it's pointless because they will just switch out to a counter which will then in turn force you to switch out. So what if you have a scarfed porygonZ who can OHKO my lead? I will just switch to my blissey and shrug off the damage, forcing you to switch just as I did and so the switching game continues.
What a lead should be doing, rather than trying to counter every other lead, is begin setting up your team right away. Which is why weather inducers, spikers and baton passers are possibly the most useful leads. Taunting is also up there because while it doesn't set up your team exactly, it stops your opponent from setting up their own team by spiking or stating up.
Does it matter that maybe 5, 6 or 7 or more out of the top 10 leads will force you to switch? Unlikely. The other times that you stay in, you can help your team immediately. What do you achieve by having a "lead countering" lead? Pounding uselessly on your opponent's counter and doing diddly squat. How much have you helped your team by doing this?
You can start setting up if they switch out.
Also, if someone switches out, say, their Gyarados, because they predict Thunderbolt, you can be clever and use Energy Ball, Ice Beam, Earth Power to hit the most common Electric switch-ins.
Also, if someone switches out, say, their Gyarados, because they predict Thunderbolt, you can be clever and use Energy Ball, Ice Beam, Earth Power to hit the most common Electric switch-ins.
That would mean your lead must have a setup move to begin with. If it does, then you're just confirming what I said about the best leads are ones that can set up to help your team right at the start rather than ones that try to counter every other lead.
When they switch, I clearly say that they switch to a counter which means that they should shrug off any attack your pokemon has.
In any case, you can't predict while you don't know what pokemon your opponent has at the start of the game. You can fire off blind shots in the hopes of catching a switch in with a super effective attack but as you said, there are any number of possible attacks you could use to try to hit SE on a pokemon what would otherwise be hit for NVE on a predicted attack.
And while we're on the subject of prediction, I can also easily say that I predict you not doing the obvious attack of thunderbolting my gyarados and just stay in and attack you. Prediction goes both ways and is a moot point.
i like ambipom mine has
fake out
double hit
payback
aerial ace
fake out
double hit
payback
aerial ace
also life orbing yanmega
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