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Theorymon Sessions - Ubers Edition

Discussion in 'BW Ubers' started by Vertex, Jul 13, 2013.

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  1. Darknesscrusher

    Darknesscrusher

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    Ah, Theorymon's huge ass post! Zoroark might actually become a pretty great niche mon, getting the boost from Yveltal. It's be obvious, though, so maybe it's not as great. Dark type moves are pretty uncommon, but with this, I can see special attacking Pokémon, such as Thundurus running Dark Pulse for pretty good neutral coverage while gaining the boost from the weather.

    About the second point, would Rayquaza's Air Lock cancel the effect? Because if not, I would fear Crunches comming from that beast. And Zekrom! 150 Attack is no push-over, especially with 50% extra damage.
  2. shmogi

    shmogi

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    What if Giratina got regenerator?
    it would be a ridiculous wall, pretty unstoppable. The only real check to it would be toxic or tricking an item onto it, but that wouldn't amount to much. It would probably get Giratina a higher usage stat then Arceus or even Kyogre! You would just max out one of the defense stats and the HP stat. You know what would be even scarier? What if Blissey got regenerator?
  3. GG Unit

    GG Unit

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    What if Turboblaze/Teravolt were buffed to allow two-turn moves to bypass the charge turn?

    We'd be heading into serious overkill territory with Freeze Shock/Ice Burn. Kyurem-B would be saying goodbye to OU faster than you could blink. CB Freeze Shock 2-hit KOs Specially Defensive Forretress after Stealth Rock. As for Kyurem-W, it's now firing off Ice-type Draco Meteors that don't lower its special attack and come with a 30% burn rate. Choice Specs Ice Burn does 32.5-38.21% to 252/252+ Calm Kyogre. In other words, Specially Defensive Ogre would be baaaarely able to Rest stall it out, but good luck if it Draco Meteored instead.

    Heatran would probably see a bump in usage, but not much is really able to switch in. Scizor keeps Kyu-B in check in OU, but a CB Freeze Shock has a chance of KOing after SR and Spikes. I think most people would be forced to take the revenge killing route, which Genesect would do just as well as ever. Cloyster could have more opportunities to Shell Smash after something dies from a Choiced Freeze Shock, but I'd predict lots of raging if it got paralyzed while setting up. It would probably be the end of stall, since Choice Banded Freeze Shock gives you a single move that can OHKO Giratina and Blissey (and 2HKO Kyogre!). Talk about easing prediction.

    That buff to White and Black Kyurem would be comically overpowered, but I think a Kyurem forme with that ability (call it Cold Fusion) with the same 130/130 base attacking stats, plus an item requirement for the forme change a la Giratina-O, would've been a formidable mixed attacker without being too ridiculous. Plus it'd have been infinitely better flavor-wise than the Frankenstein monsters we have in Kyu-W and Kyu-B.
  4. SmashBrosBrawl

    SmashBrosBrawl

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    What if Palkia got swift swim?
    No more need to use scarf to revenge kill. 68 evs in speed is all you need to outspeed deoxys s under rain. This allows palkia to use a modest nature and invest heavily into its hp. Just imagine a choice specs palkia with a modest nature and the ability to outspeed the entire tier! It helps that palkia can easily beat all weather starters 1 vs 1, ensuring that its sweep wont be cut short. This change would also free up moveslots in your team. Now you have a powerful sweeper and revenge killer in one pokemon.
  5. levenl00s

    levenl00s

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    Ugh...if Palkia got Swift Swim it would be so OP...I can't think of a single thing that isn't 2HKO'd in the rain by Specs Palkia...fire blast isn't even needed, Ferrothorn is 2hko'd after SR and Spikes by Hydro Pump (don't pin me on this). That would mean that the only way to beat it is predicting his every move superbly (or scarf Swift Swimmers lol) or taking away its rain, out of which it isn't useless unlike the other Swift Swimmers. It would be the #1 threat and give even more reason to use rain. Sun is completely demolished by fire/dragon coverage (okay do use fire blast) and might need to use stuff like Heatran. I don't think I'd like that meta.

    What if Arceus formes didn't need a Plate to function?
    Goodbye, Normal Wallceus! (nobody liked you anyways) I honestly don't know what to expect here, lots of Arceus formes would get very happy from Leftovers, Lum Berry or Life Orb (plate is generally better I suppose). I think that Normal Arceus will still be the best physical sweeper, but special Arceus truly gets buffed. Also all support/walling Arceus get a huge boost with Lefties. Arceus would be even more dominating. Yay for Arceus!

    EDIT: did the calcs, only Chansey and Blissey can live 2 hits, but there is a chance even they succumb to it. Ferrothorn is indeed 2HKO'ed by Hydro Pump
  6. bobbyvaporeon

    bobbyvaporeon

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    Ladies and Gentlemen, I present to you what might make something Broken in the Broken tier:
    Belly Drum Arceus.
    Swords Dance Extreme Killer is seen as the most Dangerous pokemon in Ubers by many, even more than Kyogre.
    But, what if we gave it a move that worked as 3 Swords Dances?
    Arceus can come in quite easily after a kill, and its phenomenal bulk allows it to take weaker hits even at 50% (plus it can use Sitrus Berry or Recover.)
    Here are some calculations that show that nothing Can switch into Arceus at +6.
    +6 252+ Atk Life Orb Arceus-Normal ExtremeSpeed vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Steel: 301-355 (67.94 - 80.13%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +6 252+ Atk Life Orb Arceus-Normal ExtremeSpeed vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Multiscale Lugia: 222-262 (53.36 - 62.98%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    Keep in mind that He still gets Earthquake and Shadow Claw, which rip through resists quite easily.
    Would this be the breaking point for Arcues?
  7. ogasian

    ogasian

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    Belly Drum Arceus would rape the tier so bad it wouldn't even be funny. It would be like Snorlax in the GSC era on steroids. I think it would push it way over the edge.

    Anyway, my theorymon is if Genesect got Nasty Plot/Swords Dance. Base 120 attacking stats are kind of underwhelming in Ubers without a way to boost them, so I think that with any of these two boosting moves, Genesect could become a terrifying sweeper on par with E-Killer Arceus. I could imagine three viable sets besides Genesect's original ones.

    Double Dance
    Life Orb
    252 special attack/252 speed
    Modest/Timid

    Nasty Plot
    Rock Polish
    Ice Beam/Flamethrower
    Bug Buzz/Thunderbolt

    With a modest nature, Genesect sits at 594 speed with a Rock Polish boost- truly terrifying. With a Nasty Plot boost, Genesect has 744 special attack, more than enough to rip apart teMs, especially factoring in a possible Download boost. The problem with this set though is its lack of coverage. You basically have to pick and choise who you want to hit. Without Flamethrower, Ferrothorn walls you to Arceus and back, while wearing Genesect down with Leech Seed and Gyro Ball shenanigans. If you have flamethrower, Giratina shits on you.

    Nasty Plot
    Life Orb/Expert Belt
    252 spattck/252 speed
    Timid/Modest

    Nasy Plot
    Ice Beam
    Flamethrower/Thunderbolt/Iron Head
    Bug Buzz

    This Gebesect is basically double dance expect with better coverage and less speed (no rock polish). It would rip apart stall and hold its own against offense, especially since base 99 speed is pretty good in Ubers. Really no need to elaborate, great coverage and decent speed, pretty powerful attacks.

    Swords Dance
    Life Orb/Normal Gem
    252 attack/252 speed
    Adamant/Jolly

    Swords Dance
    Iron Head
    U-turn
    Explosion

    Set up SD and do as much damage as possible. U-turn out of unfavorable situations. Explode as an act of desperation. Pretty simple.
  8. Blue Jay

    Blue Jay The notorious J Lube
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    Belly Drum Arceus would be quite interesting.

    Firstly, Belly Drum Arceus would fare poorly against hyper offense, where currently offensive teams are the most vulnerable against Ekiller (it fares rather poorly against stall). In hyper offense, almost all Pokemon are usually able to deal significant damage to it, and between SR, Belly Drum and a powerful attack Ekiller would die having accomplished nothing at all most of the time. Really, hyper offense would be more threatened by Ekiller, since it really relies on its good bulk (which is immensely compromised by SR+Belly Drum) and lack of weaknesses to set up, and +2 Silk Scarf Arceus can OHKO most Pokemon hyper offense likes to use (and often survive a hit if it fails to OHKO). Belly Drum Arceus would simply fail to find suitable set up opportunities, for risk of dying or random Pokemon carrying phazing moves (Giratina-O, Dialga, Latios, Latias among other good hyper offense Pokemon can all fit a phazing move, and losing 50%+entry hazard damage to be phazed makes for a useless Pokemon). It would really almost need Wobbuffet to set it up against hyper offense (although if it ever did it would easily 6-0).

    Against stall on the other hand, Belly Drum Arceus could be quite devastating, as stall often uses Pokemon that cannot significantly threaten or phaze it, allowing it to come in, set up, and do enormous damage. If Belly Drum Arceus were to become a common sight, stall would be forced to have a way to hamper its sweep (burn, toxic, a powerful attack, phazing) on every Pokemon (since you essentially get 1 free turn on it as it sets up and that is the only turn you really get to do anything against it).

    Due to the enormous disadvantage of Belly Drum (losing 50% health), combined with the prevalence of entry hazards in the metagame and the fact that a heavily weakened Arceus still needs to give the opponent a free turn while it sets up, I don't see it really breaking the metagame. If anything, it would make the already dominant playstyle, offense, even more superior and prevalent, which would be unfortunate. Really though, the whole point of Ekiller Arceus is its great bulk in addition to its ability to be very threatening after only a turn of set up, and Belly Drum loses it more bulk than it can really afford.

    Also, calculations are cool and all, but Life Orb may be the single dumbest (commonly used) item Belly Drum Arceus could run. Leftovers/sitrus berry are the only items which make sense, and calculations are only useful so long as they're realistic.
  9. Jimmyftw

    Jimmyftw

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    Arceus-Normal @ Leftovers
    Trait: Multitype
    252 HP / 88 SDef / 168 Spd
    Careful Nature
    -Belly Drum
    -Extreme Speed
    -Shadow Claw
    -Earthquake / Recover

    Turn 1
    Arceus use Belly Drum!
    Opponent use something beside phazing!
    Arceus's Leftover restore some of it's HP!

    GG
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2013
  10. Blue Jay

    Blue Jay The notorious J Lube
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    That EV spread doesn't come close to OHKOing Groudon, Skarmory, Giratina-A, Ferrothorn, among other things. If it uses Belly Drum after SR and then gets burnt or phazed or something, it kinda just sucks. Really, I see Ekiller with decent support being far more reliable, as well as being able to pick off things much better with Silk Scarf and 252+ Adamant.
  11. Jimmyftw

    Jimmyftw

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    Fair point. You can tweak the EVs and nature however way you want. Brick Break and Earthquake are also options over recover if you so desire. (Edited my last post).

    Bottom line is: GG
  12. nerdling101

    nerdling101

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    What if deoxys-s got toxic spikes?

    I mean, that pretty much kicks out tentacruel as a lead. People with deoxys-s often have to wait for it to die, once it sets up all hazards. It would make hyper offense much harder to stall out
  13. Haruno

    Haruno I choose you!
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    For HO that would mean next to nothing since mons usually don't live long enough for poison damage to rack up. For stall however it also doesn't help much since stall prefers using mons like ferro/forry to lay hazards while taking some hits. It doesn't help that steel types are quite abundant in the tier (gene/dialga/forry/ferro/exca) so the actual damage from spikes is more appreciative than tspikes.
  14. Flaming Facepalm

    Flaming Facepalm

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    What if Kyogre got Draco Meteor?

    Draco already has about a 94% chance of OHKOing standard Palkia without SR support, or STAB, with a Choice Scarf equipped, so Kyogre could essentially get rid of one major check for it right off the bat, and you could do decent damage to the rare Gastrodon or DerpyMudFish.
  15. sadoldpoygon22

    sadoldpoygon22

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    What if Groudon got Heat Crash?
    It is very heavy and can get a Drought Boosted 120 BP Physical move from most attacked Pokemon since Pokemon already heavy enough are weak to this move or its STAB; such as Ferrethorn, Dialga and certain formes of Arceus.
  16. Haruno

    Haruno I choose you!
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    Inferior to eq. The only two things that it would hit that wouldn't be hit by eq are skarm/forry. Ferro is irrelevant since sending out ferro against a groudon is essentially suicide.
  17. Sweep

    Sweep
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    What if Omastar got Thunder?

    After a smash, Omastar becomes even more threatening, being able to OHKO Palkia, Arceus Water and Kyogre at +2. Other water resists such as Giratina and Arceus-Grass can be hit really hard with Ice Beam. Only Specially Defensive Ferrothorn can live to tell the tale after a layer of Spikes, and that takes around 80% or so. Specially Defensive Giratina have a chance too, but not if there's both SR and Spikes on the field. Would Thunder lead to an increase of Omastar-based teams? DD Rayquaza and Wobbuffet help Omastar set up by baiting choiced Ice Beam and Encoring a set-up move respectively, and would be common teammates.
  18. sadoldpoygon22

    sadoldpoygon22

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    Why would Omastar get thunder in the first place? If Omastar got Thunder, true, it would make it better coverage-wise but other than that after a smash it will still be the same devastating Omastar, but being able to hit Palkia more accurately and being able to bring Kyogre down.

    +2 252 SpA Omastar Thunder vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Kyogre: 358-422 (88.61 - 104.45%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

    +2 252 SpA Omastar Thunder vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Palkia: 205-242 (63.86 - 75.38%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    +2 252 SpA Omastar Thunder vs. 252 HP / 80 SpD Lugia: 312-368 (75 - 88.46%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

    being to OHKO Great Wall Lugia after SR damage, something Ice Beam cant do.
  19. sadoldpoygon22

    sadoldpoygon22

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    (Read post above before)
    What if Deoxys-D got Regenerator, Rapid Spin and U-Turn/Volt Switch?
    U-Turn and Volt Switch seems reasonable on the Deoxys formes, and if Deoxys-D got the combination of them, it would be a pain to take down with it recovering 1/3 of its HP each switch, plus with Rapid Spin it would be the ultimate Spinner/Spikes/SR user.
  20. superstar

    superstar

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    You know that a lot of people run Fire Punch right? I think this would be great for Groudon, sinceyou cna now deal with Grass-arceus much better and hit a lot harder woth your fire move on CB sets
    Hack likes this.
  21. Haruno

    Haruno I choose you!
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    Didn't I mention the only two things that fire punch hits? And who runs cb groudon?
  22. sadoldpoygon22

    sadoldpoygon22

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    What if Kyurem-W/Kyurem-B got their respective Bolt Strike/Blue Flare attack?

    It would make them much more devestating, would it not? A Kyurem-Ws coverage is already unbeatable and unresisted, but a 30 BP increase in its Fire-type attack is a very scary thought especially when it really needs the coverage from Bronzong.
  23. rileydelete

    rileydelete

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    Maybe this idea has been stated before, maybe not but...

    What if Giratina got Intimidate?

    Now Arceus-Normal is even easier to deal with, and Giratina can have a greater easy in checking things like Ho-Oh, Excadrill, Groudon, and more. Now Giratina gains way more opportunities for a switch in, and with leftovers, becomes an even greater wall. Plus, it's not like the ability wouldn't make logical sense:

    Show Hide
    [​IMG]

    If the hidden image doesn't at least slightly intimidate you, then you're either insane like Cyrus, or an unquestionable badass.
  24. rileydelete

    rileydelete

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    Well, now Reshiram is even harder to deal with in the sun. If other weather-inducers are down, its almost an instant win condition if the Blue Eyes White Dragon starts firing Blue Flares off. Also, Groudon has a much stronger reason to run Fire Punch, and any Fire Blast user (Palkia and Dialga come to mind), enjoys the sun even more. An 80% boost is almost a full on Nasty Plot/Swords Dance :l

    As for the Hail Boost, now Kyurem-W is even stronger (seriously those white dragons man...). It's Blizzards now not just devastate, but all out obliterate the tier. Iceceus now hits even harder with stab judgment, and all the various HP Ice/Ice beam users get a big bonus.
    There aren't many other Ice type attackers or even Ice Beam users that I can think of. Maybe Mamoswine gets a bump in usage too.

    Hoo boy, that's some serious theorymoning. Well, Groudon now has a slightly easier time switching in to Kyogre, so long as it doesn't get hit by Ice Beam. Palkia is in a similar boat; its Hydro Pumps now get shrugged off in the sun; something that it hates quite a bit. Out side of those two, Waterceus now becomes a little bit of a deadweight on Sun teams; it completely loses it's STAB. Wall sets still work, but this is still a significant nerf.

    As for Sand, if it wasn't influential before, it's now outright broken. Tyranitar and Hippowdon both get pseudo-Shadow Tag. This lets Hippowdon Toxic Stall even better, and Tyranitar no longer needs Pursuit. Now, I'm assuming the weather producers can still switch out. This means Sand Teams have a far easier time checking things. The accuracy reduction is really just icing on one scary cake.
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2013
  25. Flaming Facepalm

    Flaming Facepalm

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    What if Normal moves dealt 50% more damage when there is no weather active?

    Obvious winners, EKiller Arceus and Rayquaza. But, Deoxys-A also benefits from E-Killer being increased in damage.


    What if Hyper Beam retained its " If you kill something with it, you don't need to recharge" mechanic?


    Combined with the above rule, start rampaging with a STAB, 50% boosted move that is the equivalent of a Kyogre Water Spout. Then, cry because the only thing you know with decent SpA, and STAB on HB is Arceus, who has a better set.
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