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Theorymon Sessions - Ubers Edition

Discussion in 'BW Ubers' started by Vertex, Jul 13, 2013.

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  1. superstar

    superstar

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    It's on the analysis page, not that it means much, but I've tried it out as well and it's actually not a bad set. Fire coverage hits Forry, Skarm, Ferro, Skymin, Arceus-Grass, Gene, but more importantly, this hypothetical base 120 power Fire move gives Groudon a move to spam that is more powerful than EQ thanks to the pseudo-STAB of sun and has no immunities (except Heatran). So that means it hits anything neutral to both moves harder such as Kyu-W and every Arceus-forme bar Electric. Sounds chill to me.


    Anyways, Here are some good ones that are more defensive in nature:

    What if Lugia got Taunt? What if Lugia was a Ghost-Flying type? What if both of the above?

    H
    alf the game gets Taunt, so that's not a big issue flavor-wise. Lugia can kinda look like a Ghostly mon if you squint a little bit, and everyone knows that in Pokemon 2000 the Movie it kinda died for a bit or something so that could be a reason.

    Everyone who is halfway competent knows that Lugia has a big issue. It is bait for hazard setters such as Skarmory, Forretress, Deo-D, and Ferrothorn to lay Spikes all over the field. It is also incredibly vulnerable to Toxic unless it uses Substitute. Suddenly, with Taunt, Lugia is no longer Spikes bait. It is no longer easily Leech Seeded, Paralyzed, or Toxic'd (although admittedly these are lesser issues cause of Sub).

    The other problem with Lugia is that it relies on hazards to do damage while allowing any team with a Spinner to spin those hazards away. Ghost-Flying is essentially the same as Psychic-Flying defensively, (you gain two immunities in exchange for...nothing) but no one can spin against you anymore. This would be huge, since you would no longer be forced out by the lowly Kabutops and Forretress.

    What if Ferrothorn got Rapid Spin?

    Ferroseed looks like it should get Rapid Spin, considering it's animation shows it bloody spinning.

    This would be big for sun. There would no longer be a reason to run Forry in Ubers at all, except maybe for the fighting neutrality and maybe TSpikes (sorry buddy). Ferro would give sun a lovely spinner for Ho-Oh as well as a beautiful water resist that would make it much less necessary to rely on Latias/Arceus-Water

    Also it would stop rain stall from having to use friggin Excadrill or Tentacruel, who both are annoying to use when rain often has better options
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2013
  2. Haruno

    Haruno I choose you!
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    Skymin is irrelevant since it already gets ohko'd by stone edge (not that it matters since it ohko's with seed flare unless you're running 252/252+ SpD in which case it'll have a 50% to ohko lol). Gene is never switching in on groudon and more importantly it'll never stay in vs groudon since it'll either hard switch or uturn or at the very worst hit extremely hard with a +1 4 SpA ice beam which does like 60-75% of groudon's life. Forry/skarm/ferro obviously lose to groudon in the sun with or without cb (well okay skarm gets 2hko'd even with sr up without cb as opposed to getting a guaranteed ohko with cb). Arceus grass outspeeds and has a 87.5% of ohko'ing with grass knot so that's mostly irrelevant.

    Overall heat crash isn''t something that'll really benefit groudon since all it really does is allow it to ohko skarm without resorting to a choice band but that's not saying much.

    It'd be much better with taunt since lugia no longer becomes set up bait to the likes of hazard setters and can begin to phaze with impunity thanks to that amazing base 110 speed. Arguably it'd be more useful than even multiscale.
    I can see it as being useful but ferro + sun isn't exactly the best combination. Forry has tspikes which gives it an edge not to mention sturdy helps abit with taking a hit. The biggest problem with RS is although it sounds cool, ferro would suffer from massive 4MSS since it really doesn't have any moves that it would want to give up since it has such amazing utility.
  3. superstar

    superstar

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    Excellent point on the 4MSS; though I don't really see how Forry is in any way not totally outclassed by Ferro on sun teams. Standard Forry runs Spikes/Rapid Spin/Pain Split/Toxic -- the exact same set with Leech Seed + Protect instead of Toxic/Pain Split could be much better on Ferro. Sturdy is broken whenever you come in to spin anyway. Yeah, RS Ferro might not be able to run Rapid Spin much of the time on Rain Stall/Balance, unfortunately, since it's already hard to give up two of T-Wave/Protect/Spikes/Leech Seed/Gyro Ball/Power Whip, but it might be useful on some sets with the Leech Seed/Protect (or Power Whip)/RS/Spikes thing I mentioned above
  4. Haruno

    Haruno I choose you!
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    Honestly I think being able to toxic incoming spinblockers is far more important than seeding them. The only replaceable move on ferro would be twave/protect depending on your preference and it just loses so much utility by losing either one that it overall doesn't seem worth it to me. I'm under the impression that ferro is running leechseed/spikes/gyro ball/RS if it had that option. Either that or it'd run leech seed/spikes/twave/RS but this seems rather iffy to me since it'll be unable to do anything to gira forms.
  5. Haruno

    Haruno I choose you!
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    Losing weaknesses to ice/dragon is amazing and it gains no weaknesses bar fire (gira gains 1 weakness from steel because of ghost + levitate) but in exchange it loses the ability to beat weather sweepers which is a massive loss.

    Omastar will hit with a stab rain boosted hydro pump as opposed to SE ice beam
    Kabutops is in the same boat but with waterfall
    Exca shits all over gira if it's a mold breaker spinner variant
    Blaziken will hurt alot with a SE flare blitz

    Overall I think that typing hurts gira more than it would help since gira would normally be an amazing check to weather but now instead it just gets curbstomped.
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2013
  6. Legitimate Username

    Legitimate Username Your attack missed!
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    What if Dialga had its base 90 HP in exchange for 100 Speed?

    Basically if it was the same as Palkia in those two regards. I think that would be a pretty substantial buff, being able to safely outspeed the many base 90-95 speed Pokémon, one of the most noteworthy being Groudon. In addition, its Choice Scarf set would be more potent, giving Palkia and Salamence more competition by matching their speed and having its incredible Steel typing.
  7. ogasian

    ogasian

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    What if Garchomp got Sand Rush? All its pokedex entries are about speed and hell, even Stoutland of all things gets it. I wasn't comfortable bringing it up in OU theorymon, but with the dominance of Kyogre and Groudon and the existence of extremely bulky mons lke Lugia, i dont think Chomp would be that dominant. It would be a huge buff to sand and it can outspeed pretty much every relevant scarfer in Ubers. I think it even out speeds Deoxys-S scarf? Chomp would be held back by bad defensive typing though, making it harder to set up.
  8. Flaming Facepalm

    Flaming Facepalm

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    It would definitely have some sort of impact on the metagame. I can see the Swords Dance set escalate in usage, mainly because people know how good it was on Excadrill, so they would naturally want to use it on Garchomp as well, who has better offensive STABs.
  9. sadoldpoygon22

    sadoldpoygon22

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    Well it will basicly become Palkia with a different typing and some moves

    What if Palkia got Tail Glow?
    It has glowing pearls all over itself, and I can imagine it having its tail glow. It will become a heavy hitter if it gets this.
  10. bobbyvaporeon

    bobbyvaporeon

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    Guys, please explain your theorymon suggestions.
  11. Furai

    Furai a Ωdefender // a αguardian
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    read my post at page one.
  12. MrEon

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    OK, this maybe kind of interesting. What if Arceus got Close Combat ?

    Flavor-wise, let me tell you that even Arcanine, Keldeo and Staraptor get CC, but the animation shows a barrage of punches and its clear that none of these 'mons are capable of punching. So no more explanation needed.

    On to the important stuff. Two things that are in my mind are -
    a) A lot of Arceus formes will be able to use it as a good coverage move (read:ExtremeKiller Arceus) over the current best option, Brick Break. For example, +2 LO Adamant EK Arceus does a massive 71-84% to standard Skarmory, which is a chance to OHKO after SR and some prior damage. Meanwhile the same Arceus will just barely manage to 2HKO with Brick Break.
    b) More importantly, Swords Dance Fighting Arceus will get more usage. Right now, CM Fightceus > SD mainly because of how weak Brick Break is. On the other hand, to demonstrate the power of SD Close Combat,

    +2 252 Atk Fist Plate Arceus-Fighting Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Ho-Oh: 242-285 (58.31 - 68.67%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

    That's a one-shot on one of Fightceus' biggest counters right there.
  13. Haruno

    Haruno I choose you!
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    Absolutely make ghosts the only thing that can stop sd variants of arceus (bar ekiller which gets wrecked by terra)? When said ghosts are reliant entirely on either A. Focus miss, B. will o miss or C. Phazing to "check". Yeah no thanks. We really don't need sd arceus to better than it already is. It's just bad taste if it did anyhow.
  14. sadoldpoygon22

    sadoldpoygon22

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    Its still a question and it needs answered or commented on. If not, What if Dialga and Palkia had Levitate?
    In the anime and Mystery Dunggeons they fly/float and it is a good ability on them in order for Dialga to have yet another step for a better resistance in Ubers.
  15. Talpr0ne

    Talpr0ne

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    Lol basically the position of Dialga against Groudon is reversed.

    What if Explosion was never nerfed?

    Guys, whit DPPT Explosion mechanics Genesect is able to OHKO after spikes even the bulkiest steel type it's not even funny. Here are some calcs
    At +1

    +1 252 Atk Genesect Explosion vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Rock: 74.09 - 87.16%
    +1 252 Atk Genesect Explosion vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Steel: 74.26 - 87.35%
    +1 252 Atk Genesect Explosion vs. 252 HP / 4+ Def Skarmory: 78.14 - 91.91%
    +1 252 Atk Genesect Explosion vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Forretress: 80.79 - 95.19%
    +1 252 Atk Genesect Explosion vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Dialga: 81.18 - 95.54%
    +1 252 Atk Genesect Explosion vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dialga: 81.43 - 95.79%
    +1 252 Atk Genesect Explosion vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dialga: 81.43 - 95.79%
    +1 252 Atk Genesect Explosion vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 84.06 - 99.17%
    +1 252 Atk Genesect Explosion vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Skarmory: 85.62 - 100.89%
    +1 252 Atk Genesect Explosion vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Rock: 86.12 - 101.3%
    +1 252 Atk Genesect Explosion vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Arceus-Steel: 86.08 - 101.31%
    +1 252 Atk Genesect Explosion vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ferrothorn: 86.36 - 101.7%
    +1 252 Atk Genesect Explosion vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 87.62 - 103.21%
    +1 252 Atk Genesect Explosion vs. 52 HP / 0 Def Dialga: 92.93 - 109.32%
    +1 252 Atk Genesect Explosion vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Jirachi: 94.8 - 111.63%
    +1 252 Atk Genesect Explosion vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 94.81 - 111.65%
    +1 252 Atk Genesect Explosion vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 99.12 - 116.86%
    +1 252 Atk Genesect Explosion vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Bronzong: 99.7 - 117.45%

    At +0


    252 Atk Genesect Explosion vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Rock: 49.32 - 58.1%
    252 Atk Genesect Explosion vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Steel: 49.43 - 58.23%
    252 Atk Genesect Explosion vs. 252 HP / 4+ Def Skarmory: 52.09 - 61.37%
    252 Atk Genesect Explosion vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Forretress: 53.95 - 63.55%
    252 Atk Genesect Explosion vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dialga: 54.2 - 63.86%
    252 Atk Genesect Explosion vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dialga: 54.2 - 63.86%
    252 Atk Genesect Explosion vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 56.31 - 66.2%
    252 Atk Genesect Explosion vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Skarmory: 57.18 - 67.36%
    252 Atk Genesect Explosion vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Rock: 57.32 - 67.53%
    252 Atk Genesect Explosion vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Arceus-Steel: 57.48 - 67.71%
    252 Atk Genesect Explosion vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ferrothorn: 57.67 - 67.89%
    252 Atk Genesect Explosion vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 58.66 - 69.05%
    252 Atk Genesect Explosion vs. 52 HP / 0 Def Dialga: 61.86 - 72.88%
    252 Atk Genesect Explosion vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Jirachi: 63.11 - 74.5%
    252 Atk Genesect Explosion vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 63.21 - 74.61%
    252 Atk Genesect Explosion vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 66.27 - 77.9%
    252 Atk Genesect Explosion vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Bronzong: 66.56 - 78.4%
    252 Atk Genesect Explosion vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Bronzong: 66.86 - 78.69%
    252 Atk Genesect Explosion vs. 212 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 68.26 - 80.23%
    252 Atk Genesect Explosion vs. 208 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 68.46 - 80.48%
    252 Atk Genesect Explosion vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Dialga: 71.55 - 84.45%
    252 Atk Genesect Explosion vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Groudon: 72.27 - 85.14%
    252 Atk Genesect Explosion vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arceus-Normal: 73.42 - 86.48%
    252 Atk Genesect Explosion vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arceus-Poison: 73.42 - 86.48%
    252 Atk Genesect Explosion vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 73.42 - 86.48%
    252 Atk Genesect Explosion vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Omastar: 75.17 - 88.29%
    252 Atk Genesect Explosion vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 75.14 - 88.3%
    252 Atk Genesect Explosion vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Heatran: 75.23 - 88.54%
    252 Atk Genesect Explosion vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 77.64 - 91.23%
    252 Atk Genesect Explosion vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Lugia: 77.88 - 91.82%
    -1 252 Atk Genesect Explosion vs. 248 HP / 184+ Def Gyarados: 77.86 - 91.85%
    252 Atk Genesect Explosion vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 78.33 - 92.38%
    252 Atk Genesect Explosion vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Forretress: 81.53 - 96.15%
    252 Atk Genesect Explosion vs. 252 HP / 84+ Def Arceus-Fighting: 83.78 - 98.64%
    252 Atk Genesect Explosion vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Cresselia: 86.48 - 101.8%
    252 Atk Genesect Explosion vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Terrakion: 86.37 - 101.85%
    252 Atk Genesect Explosion vs. 200 HP / 108 Def Groudon: 90.53 - 106.64%
    252 Atk Genesect Explosion vs. 252 HP / 96 Def Arceus-Ground: 90.99 - 107.2%
    252 Atk Genesect Explosion vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kabutops: 93.86 - 110.72%
    252 Atk Genesect Explosion vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 94.48 - 111.02%
    252 Atk Genesect Explosion vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Groudon: 94.8 - 111.63%
    252 Atk Genesect Explosion vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Genesect: 94.69 - 111.66%
    252 Atk Genesect Explosion vs. 252 HP / 40 Def Arceus-Dark: 95.49 - 112.38%
    252 Atk Genesect Explosion vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Ho-Oh: 95.42 - 112.53%
    252 Atk Genesect Explosion vs. 176 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 95.8 - 112.83%
    252 Atk Genesect Explosion vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kyogre: 98.01 - 115.59%
    252 Atk Genesect Explosion vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Lugia: 98.07 - 115.62%
    252 Atk Genesect Explosion vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Arceus-Poison: 98.64 - 116.21%
    252 Atk Genesect Explosion vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Dark: 98.87 - 116.44%
    252 Atk Genesect Explosion vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Fighting: 98.87 - 116.44%
    252 Atk Genesect Explosion vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Grass: 98.87 - 116.44%
    252 Atk Genesect Explosion vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Ground: 98.87 - 116.44%
    252 Atk Genesect Explosion vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Psychic: 98.87 - 116.44%
    252 Atk Genesect Explosion vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Water: 98.87 - 116.44%
    252 Atk Genesect Explosion vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Dragon: 99.09 - 116.7%
    ogasian likes this.
  16. Haruno

    Haruno I choose you!
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    Thank god the majority of the time gene won't need to explode anyhow.
  17. Flaming Facepalm

    Flaming Facepalm

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    What if Mewtwo recieved Nasty Plot?

    This would probably bump Mewtwo up to insanity levels of power. A +2 Psystrike can decimate most enemies effortlessly, and combined with Aura Sphere and a a move like Shadow Ball, you can hit the entire Ubers tier for massive damage.

    +2 252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Aura Sphere vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Genesect: 302-356 (106.71 - 125.79%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    +2 252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Psystrike vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kyogre: 526-620 (153.8 - 181.28%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    +2 252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Psychic: 330-389 (86.38 - 101.83%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

    And the list goes on. Anything not decimated by Psystrike will be bent over and paddled by Mewtwo's myriad of coverage moves. Sure, Calm Mind could get the same effect along with a S.Def boost, but that requires two turns.
  18. Haruno

    Haruno I choose you!
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    The biggest benefit I see is how it doesn't give gene the atk boost. =X That matters more to me more than anything anyhow.
  19. Flaming Facepalm

    Flaming Facepalm

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    What if Kyurem-Black had an Ice-type Outrage?

    I think this would be sufficient to throw Kyu into Ubers. And in Ubers, he would shred through the common walls easily. He would be able to OHKO Groudon and Lugia, and pave the way for something else to sweep.
  20. JustAMan

    JustAMan

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    GrassKnot Kyogre?
    Never humiliated by Gastro and a great sub to Thundr

    Kyogre@ChoiceScarf
    Timid Nature
    Trait: Drizzle
    252 SpA/ 252 Spe
    - Water Spout
    - Grass Knot
    - Ice Beam
    - Hydro Pump
  21. sadoldpoygon22

    sadoldpoygon22

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    Well its Gen 1 Mewtwo all over again with Psystrike, Aura Sphere and Fire Blast it is a menace and is not resisted ._. not to mention a Rain Sweeper set with a never missing Thunder and Hurricane and Psystrike makes it even more threatening, if only it got Hydro Pump making it have a 120 Base STAB Water attack.

    What if Eruptions and Water Spouts power was always 150?
    Kyogre
    will be unstoppable without checking it with a Palkia or a Gastrodon, even then it makes Life Orb sets more viable to switch coverage moves, not losing power with HP and making the Base Power of Water Spout at a maximum in rain 405 ._., still way too strong resisted even for Palkia and coupled with Thunder, HP Grass and Ice Beam, it can sweep through teams not with Palkia, another Kyogre or a Sun Stter with Solarbeam.
  22. MrEon

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    What if Deoxys-A got Magic Guard?

    In other words, a mixed Alakazam on steroids. Both of them are pretty similar in the sense that they are powerful but frail attackers, so I thought what Zam can do in OU Deo should be able to pull off in ubers as well.
  23. Talpr0ne

    Talpr0ne

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    What if Rayquaza got Brave Bird?
    As Brave Bird is STAB and has the same base power of Outrage you now have a much more reliable attack to spam after a Dragon Dance or a Swords Dance, making Dragon Claw the better choice for a Dragon Stab. Earthquake erases Dialga and Steel Arceus. There is no longer need of Overeath, as Brave Bird is OHKO after Stealth Rock on Forretress and Ferrothorn when Rayquaza is at +1.
  24. Steeljackal<3

    Steeljackal<3

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    I think SD/DD Rayquaza's lifespan would be too short. It's already potentially coming in at 75% with Rocks up, it most likely has to take a hit before setting up, and it has Life Orb recoil to worry about on top of all of this. Brave Bird would most likely kill it in 2 turns, and it really sucks for a win condition to die that fast.
    rileydelete likes this.
  25. Furai

    Furai a Ωdefender // a αguardian
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    with XY being just less than a week away, i think it is time to end this.

    thanks for bringing up some exciting scenarios, let's see which ones come true on saturday!! :toast:
    sadoldpoygon22 and rileydelete like this.
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