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There Were 190 Pokémon!

Discussion in 'Orange Islands' started by Zog, Sep 3, 2010.

  1. Tenodera


    Mar 27, 2011
    ^ From what I could tell, the Charizard/Garchomp thing wasn't trying to be that serious. Regardless, you can't say that Pokemon like Empoleon, Palkia, etc have much more extensive patterning that isn't as present in the first 2 gens. Bulbasaur's spots make sense since it's a frog and all. Dragonite's ventral lines are a reptile's large belly scales, and Karp's single scale row is a simple stylization too.

    I would really love to see some more recent unused designs. If there were so many "rejects" from 1st gen, there have to be some from the others!
  2. Unbreakable


    May 21, 2010
    Relevant, hopefully (please no thread necro):

    The Bulbapedia link in the OP now lists this thread as a reference. O_o
    Sakuretsu likes this.
  3. JacobNinja


    Aug 5, 2012
    WOAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!! Never realized that. I'm such an idiot.
  4. Cresselia~~

    Cresselia~~ Junichi Masuda likes this!!

    Jan 14, 2006
    Actually back then when I read Bulbapedia's article, I was surprised that most Gen 2 baby Pokemon were already in it.
    Wouldn't surprise me that they removed them because they couldn't fit the breeding mechanics inside though.
  5. BlackButterfree


    Jan 12, 2014
    I just find it odd that it just happens to be the last 39 Pokemon of the Johto Pokedex in sequential order without a single one being skipped. You'd think that since a lot of these Pokemon were extended families (Umbreon, Espeon, Slowking, Scizor) that they'd all be the MissingNo. along with a few Johto Pokemon, but only three or four cross-generational relatives were included in the R/G index list. Has anybody ever double checked the veracity of Shigeki's statements? The OP does claim that Shigeki said the 39 "Kan-Jo" Pokemon were all to be used later, but has he ever said it anywhere else?
  6. Crazuu


    Nov 10, 2013
    3 months, enough to revive.
    Well, I think that Scizor wasn't meant to evolve from Scyther at first. Scizor and Heracross were Johto counterparts of Scyther and Pinsir, respectively. They all 4 are badass bugs and have base stats of 500, also, Scizor (A bipedal warrior red ant with crab-like pincers) has not so much to do with Scyther (A mantis with a dinosaur head and feet).
  7. Guy Incognito

    Guy Incognito

    Apr 16, 2014
    I keep hoping some kind of new info will come out and we'll finally see which ones were cut. Some of the old Gamefreak staff are on twitter, maybe someone with some Japanese knowledge could ask them? Shigeki Morimoto's twitter seems to be @shmorimo
  8. BlackButterfree


    Jan 12, 2014
    Considering just a few weeks ago with the announcement of ORAS, someone from GameFreak finally confirmed the timeline of the games, anything is possible. The OP seems to be a pretty good competitor if he/she's made it to where Shigeki goes two years in a row... Why not go up to Shigeki calmly and ask him if GameFreak could release a little statement saying which were the lost 39? Safe to assume Marill, Togepi, Ho-Oh, Donphan and Tyranitar were probably in there.

    We know that Latias and Blaziken were originally one Pokémon, that Shellos and Gastrodon were originally from Hoenn and that X and Y (and by extension, Kalos Pokémon) were in development as early as Black and White 2.0's development, I'd love to see which other Pokémon got moved forward to the next Generations.

    And in response to the whole "oh Gen 1 and Gen 2 all look better because Ken designed them all, but didn't design the later ones"... He didn't. He's always done the final, official artwork, from which everyone designs the Pokémon (manga, anime, games, cards, etc.) but he doesn't always design them. PIKACHU, who we all know is Gen. 1, was designed by the same woman who designed SYLVEON. So remind me again how the original 251 were better because Ken designed them? Also, he codesigned Xerneas and Yveltal. Obviously the explanation that said Pokémon were simpler back then because it's what the GameBoyColor could handle is correct. Do you really think that designs like this:


    could've been possible back when the best all the Pokémon on our screens could've looked like was this:


    People need to grow up. The designs have matured because so has the technology.
  9. Fraczewski


    Sep 15, 2014
    I registered here just to write this post.

    After months after finding this topic for the first time, I finally decided to search for clues and hints telling what Pokemon were left out of Gen One. I've always thought it must have something to do with existing new evolutions of old Kanto Pokemon and the new Pokemon appearing in Kanto. (Crystal excluded)
    So I counted them up. (how do you make spoiler tags here?)
    Note that I didn't take several factors into account, such as absence of Dark type in Gen 1, item holding, breeding and happiness mechanic, but I did exclude Headbutt pokemon and Victory Road Pokemon such as Ursaring or Donphan, as well as new Kanto areas: Route 26 through 28.

    A. Related Pokemon
    1. Crobat
    2. Pichu
    3. Cleffa
    4. Igglybuff
    5. Bellossom
    6. Politoed
    7. Espeon
    8. Umbreon
    9. Slowking
    10. Steelix
    11. Scizor
    12. Kingdra
    13. Porygon2
    14. Tyrogue
    15. Hitmontop
    16. Smoochum
    17. Elekid
    18. Magby
    19. Blissey

    B. Newcomers to Kanto
    20. Chinchou
    21. Lanturn
    22. Sentret
    23. Furrett
    24. Hoothoot
    25. Noctowl
    26. Ledyba
    27. Ledian
    28. Spinarak
    29. Ariados
    30. Corsola
    31. Sunkern
    32. Hoppip
    33. Skiploom
    34. Quagsire
    35. Qwilfish
    36. Murkrow (Kanto-exclusive)
    37. Houndour (Kanto-exclusive)
    38. Slugma (Kanto-exclusive)

    The results of this silly research are closer to the thesis than I expected. The number we get is pretty close to our missing 39 (40 excluding Mew) from the original 190, and we could assume that at least one of these Pokemon had a further evolution or a previous form (Sunflora, Jumpluff, Wooper, Houndoom, Magcargo). Among related Pokemon, Espeon and Umbreon I'm most doubtful about. First of all, time wasn't that much of a concept in Red and Green. Also, in Gen 1 the classic jRPG tri-elementalism of Bolt, Ice/Water and Fire is strongly featured through Legendary Birds, Eeveelutions (the concept would be broken with inclusion of two new Pokemon), and humanoid triumvirate of Jynx, Electabuzz, and Platypus. If were to go any further, Three Dogs of Ecruteak are a strong candidate for scrapped Gen 1 Pokemon, but I won't risk that claim.

    Furthermore, I highly doubt that such redundant Pokemon as Sentret, Ledyba and Spinarak could have been designed for a game alongside likes of Rattata, Caterpie, and Weedle. Therefore I'd feel safe to say that they were definitely not created for Red and Green. On the other hand we have really interesting and innovative Pokemon such as Electric/Water Lanturn, Fire/Rock Magcargo, Water/Ground Quagsire. After all exclusions (6) and inclusions (5) we're left with 37 Pokemon. Three still missing. The first thing that comes to mind is Larvitar line, strengthened further seeing how the original concept for games was about larva - coccoon - adult evolution. But that could have been anything, really. Pineco, Aipom, Togepi, Delibird, Swinub, Delibird. Whatever you think fits, because until Game Freak speaks, silly theories are all we're left with.

    I counted Dark-types for the sake of this list, but it could pretty much have been a scrapped concept from Gen 1 production. If not, Pokemon such us Murkrow, Houndour, and Umbreon could have been conceptualized as different type Pokemon.

    Ho-oh first appeared in 1997 anime, but that was already during the production of Gen 2. Same applies to Togepi, Snubbull, and Donphan - they debuted on-screen before Gold and Silver were released, but that doesn't mean they were designed before Game Freak started working on the sequels.

    But it's just something I decided to fart outta my head for fun. As I said, it was just made for fun and worthless speculation. I'm sorry!
    Sleepless, Celever, JES and 5 others like this.
  10. BlackButterfree


    Jan 12, 2014
    This is really well thought out. But then again, we just don't know and never will. For all we know, Flabébé was a Grass type meant for Kanto or something (highly unlikely, but possible!) or the missing 39 just won't ever show up at all. I doubt it if the designs were good enough to be put in the games, then removed.
  11. Guy Incognito

    Guy Incognito

    Apr 16, 2014
    I've given this a lot of thought too, but there's not many conclusions I can make that aren't just speculation and guesses. If you look at the order the Pokemon were programmed into the game (link), it gives the most clues as to what ones were possibly cut. For example, look on that list at numbers 82-101. You can see there they started adding Pokemon with two stage evolutions, starting with Vulpix and ending at Jigglypuff. But you see 4 Pokemon were cut in between, likely the other two stage Pokemon. But who knows what they were?
  12. JES


    Dec 22, 2014
    While doing chores of all things, I came to think how things might've been if these 39 Pokemon did make it into the original games.

    I intended to post this way earlier, but as you can tell, making this list was very time consuming, and required me to take a break from playing Alpha Sapphire. I also got sidetracked from a breeding project for many days, and still have many spare hatchlings to Wonder Trade in order to clear some boxes, not to mention organize what I get in return, and decide what to do with them. But I thought this would be a fun thing to speculate about, as well as share my thoughts.

    Hex 1F/Decimal 031: Scizor

    Notes: I have to wonder if Scizor was even originally meant to be Scyther's evolution. Evolutions that have nearly the same base stats are very rare, and the lovely part is that they both share the exact BST. I have to wonder if Scizor was supposed to be a Version exclusive, or one of the concept designs for Scyther that was well liked so much by management, that both were approved, and eventually used.

    I have to wonder if Scizor was used in R/G, that it would've had a Steel typing, or have just been a pure Bug type. It probably would've been the latter, and might've been a heavier defensive oriented cousin of Scyther, much like Hitmonchan and Hitmonlee.

    If that were the case, then I'd wager that Scizor would've also been found in the Safari Zone. That is, if I were a wagering man (not that I am ;)).

    Though don't get excited: with powerful STAB moves like X-Scissor, and because Mewtwo could learn Flamethrower, I don't think Scizor would've made much of an impression in the Uber ring.

    Hex 20/Decimal 032: Shuckle

    Notes: I have to wonder if perhaps Rock Smash were conceived at the same time as Shuckle, but not implemented due to not having enough time/space, or if Shuckle and finding them with Rock Smash was just decided upon in Gen II, taking advantage of Rock Smash. If not, then I’m guessing that Shuckle was originally supposed to appear in one of Kanto’s caves. Something tells me that they weren’t thinking of putting rocks on a beach like they did with Vermillion City in HG/SS (though that is a possibility).

    Shuckle would’ve been one of those useless Pokemon if he had debuted in Gen I. Sure he would’ve had Toxic, Double Team, Rest, and rock hard defenses, but moves such as Encore, Protect, and Safeguard have made him more of a useful trickster, and he’s only gotten better with age, and new moves such as Power Trick, Shell Smash, and Power Swap allow all sorts of strategies for those who are imaginative enough.

    Hex 32/Decimal 050: Heracross

    Notes: Unless the plan was to make Headbutt a move to be used outside of battle from the start (which seems unlikely, seeing as how the only other Pokemon that existed at the time which could be Headbutt out of trees were the Butterfree and Beedrill family and, Exeggcute, and Ekans), I’d have to guess that Heracross was probably meant to be another denizen of the Safari Zone. He was probably held back because there were 2 Stag Beetle Pokemon, and the higher ups chose Pinsir over him.

    Maybe part of the decision was also made so that Heracross’s signature move wouldn’t have to be programmed into the game at that time. And lets face it: even with Heracross’s weakness to Psychic types, well, that would make Heracross even weaker if it couldn’t learn Mega Horn in the first place. Unfortunately, because of Heracross’s Psychic type weakness, it was risky using him against Psychic types in Gen II, and that would’ve been no different if he were available in Gen I, even with Mega Horn.

    Hex 34/Decimal 052: Ho-Oh

    Notes: The fact that Shigeki Morimoto says that Ho-Oh was NOT made for R/G brings up the possibility that none of these Pokemon were originally made for R/G, or not all of them. Even I have to acknowledge that. If that is the case, then that means the Missingno transforming into Gen II Pokemon when transferred from Gen I to Gen II games might be a coincidence.

    Bearing that in mind, I almost want to just skip speculating about Ho-Oh being in the Gen I games, since it appears that it was never meant to happen. But I guess that there is the small possibility that perhaps Shigeki thought Zog was referring to Hoothoot, and not Ho-Oh. Their Japanese pronunciations do seem a little similar.

    But I cannot help but think that it makes sense that the whole Version Mascot originated even from the first games during planning, and I’m willing to speculate the possibility that perhaps Ho-Oh was originally going to be the catchable in the Red Version, while Lugia was going to be the Version Mascot for the Green Version. This I think would be a cool thing to do if GF ever decided to remake the Gen I series again.

    Given how bulky and powerful those pair are, and with a BST of 680, which is 100 less then the Legendary Bird Trio, well lets just say that I don’t think Moltres would’ve seen as much use as she did.

    Hex 38/Decimal 056: Sneasel

    Notes: I have to wonder if Sneasel was originally just going to be an Ice type, but was held back, because, well, lets face it: Sneasel is pretty insignificant, with only his speed being really good. And Sneasel would’ve had to do without any decent natural Ice moves, and unless his Special was decent, Ice Beam wouldn’t have done much, and he would also have had to do without Beat Up or Metal Claw.

    I think that Sneasel was almost certainly meant to show up in the Sea Foam Islands.

    Hex 3D/Decimal 061 and Hex 3E/Decimal 062: Teddiursa and Ursaring

    Notes: Ursaring is one of those Normal types with a good dose of Physical attack, similar to Snorlax, Tauros, and Kangaskhan, but a two stager. Perhaps it is the latter which pushed the former into waiting until G/S to make their debut.

    I imagine that they were intended to show up in a mountain or near one, such as, and specifically Victory Road, which is where Ursaring showed up in G/S/C and their remakes, but perhaps also Mt. Moon, Route 3, Route 4, the Rock Tunnel, Route 10, and/or even Route 23 before Victory Road.

    If Ursaring had debuted in Gen I, I imagine him as being a two-stage alternative to Kangaskhan or Tauros.

    Hex 3F/Decimal 063 and Hex 043/Decimal 067: Slugma and Magcargo

    Notes: Slugma and Magcargo are two of those 39 Pokemon that I’m almost convinced were originally going to appear in Red and Green. Why? Because they only appear in Kanto: Routes 16-18, which connects Celadon and Fuchsia City. I will admit that there is a bit of a discrepancy: none of the Missingnos that have been transferred have turned into Murkows, even though Murkrow most certainly can only be found in Kanto as well. Is this another indication that we can’t tell which of the 39 Gen II Pokemon were originally going to be in the original games simply by transferring Missingnos? Possibly.

    It is easy to see why Magcargo among those was chosen to wait. It wasn’t until Magcargo got Shell Smash that he became dangerous, and even then, he is very easy to take out, with many weaknesses.

    Hex 44/Decimal 067 and Hex 45/Decimal 068: Swinub and Piloswine:

    Piloswine is another one of those Pokemon that I suspect were probably meant for the Sea Foam Islands, but in the end decided was not a priority to get into the games.

    Why? Besides a unique typing and a high attack, and maybe his HP, there really isn’t much to Piloswine. It is probably no wonder that Piloswine eventually got an evolution, which benefited the family greatly, and getting Thick Fat for his Hidden Ability in Gen 5 was even better.

    Hex 4F/Decimal 079: Corsola

    Notes: If I had to guess, I’d have to say that the reason that Corsola was dropped from Gen I was because there were the two Water/Rock fossils. And even those are used more often than Corsola now, because even with Recover, Corsola just lacks the power and speed to truly be a threat. Corsola would’ve just been another “filler”.

    It is likely that Corsola would’ve appeared on Routes 14, 19, 20, and 21, and Cerulean City and Cinnabar Island, like in G/S/C and HG/SS. In fact, I’m surprised that they didn’t appear there in FR/LG.

    Hex 50/Decimal 080 and Hex 51/Decimal 081: Remoraid and Octillery

    Notes: I’m not exactly certain in this case what cased Octillery to be held back. My guess is that there were one or more reasons that had other Pokemon chosen over him. Maybe the development team wanted to make a signature move for him, but didn’t have the time, space, or resources to do it for the first games, so he was held back.

    Octillery is one of those Pokemon whose movepool I immediately liked when first seeing it (but somehow have yet to raise one). Why? Because he could learn not only Ice Beam naturally, but even learn Flamethrower by tutor in Crystal, and can now learn that and Fire Blast via TM since Gen III. In other words, switching in a Grass type on him is risky business, even if you send in a Pokemon whose typing would give him neutral damage from an Ice attack. And his Special Attack isn’t too shabby. But given that they didn’t choose to make Flamethrower available until Crystal, perhaps it is best that they waited until Gen II.

    Hex 56/Decimal 086: Delibird

    Notes: Delibird is one of those pretty much useless Pokemon whose main purpose is being a novelty. When you look over other Pokemon like Ditto, you can see who was preferable to include in the first games. Besides, Delibird’s signature (and only) move would’ve just been one more move to program in, which would’ve only been used for one Pokemon anyways. Better to save programming in Present in for another time.

    Besides, who even wished that Delibird was in the Gen I games? Articuno is of the same type, but infinitely better!

    Hex 57/Decimal 087: Mantine

    Notes: It is pretty easy to see why Mantine didn’t make it into the first games. It was either Mantine or Gyarados, both being Water/Flying types, two of which would be overkill if introduced in the same generation.

    And Gyarados clearly has a better game presence then Mantine, though the one stat that Mantine is superior in is Special Defense (albeit that Mantine’s Special Defense is as good as Kyogre’s, which is saying a lot).

    Hex 5E/Decimal 094: Skarmory

    Notes: I suspect that Skarmory was either originally going to be a Normal/Flying type (or just a pure Flying type, like Tornadus from so much later on?) until someone got the idea giving it another type based of it’s appearance, or the Steel type was thought up even during the development of the first games, but both were saved for next games, due to a shortage on time and space to program the necessary codes. Plus, a Skarmory without Steel Wing would’ve been like a moth without wings, and they probably didn’t want to also have to program that in, or otherwise make Skarmory a Steel type in the first games, but leave it without any Steel type moves. Then again, Magnemite didn’t get a Steel type move in Gen II, so they probably just didn’t want to have to program in yet another type.

    Skarmory was definitely better off being debuted as a Steel type, as that gives him immunities and resistances that he would lack as a Normal/Flying type. Some players might’ve seen some potential from Skarmory’s rock hard Defense though…

    Hex 5F/Decimal 095 and Hex 73/Decimal 115: Houndour and Houndoom

    Notes: Yet another Pokemon that I’m all but convinced was definitely going to appear in the original games, due to appearing outside of Saffron City in the later games (but mysteriously not FR/LG, even though he would’ve been very useful for challenging Sabrina’s gym). I don’t know if Houndoom was held back so that he could get a Dark typing in Gen II, or if it would’ve made a difference, like Magnemite (which it appears it didn’t). Houndoom might’ve also been held back because there was already Vulpix and Growlithe, and holding back Houndour would’ve meant there would be a dog Pokemon for the next games.

    Houndoom has good Special Attack, even higher than Arcanine, though he is frail in Defense. Arcanine and Ninetales clearly are better balanced in offense and defense, though I’d guess that wouldn’t stop players from trying him in Gen I. Even so, it is Houndoom’s Dark typing that makes him unique from Arcanine or Ninetales.

    Hex 97/Decimal 121: Kingdra

    Notes: I believe that Seadra might’ve been one of those Pokemon meant to evolve via trading, just like Graveller, Kadabra, and Machoke, but that was dropped as the development team ran out of room, and it was decided that Seadra could or would just have to do as it was for the time being. When Kingdra was introduced in Gen II, it was decided that they couldn’t just have Kingdra evolve as originally planned like nothing happened, hence the introduction of the Dragon Scale.

    Even without a STAB Dragon type move, with no weaknesses (like I said, there weren’t any STAB Dragon moves in Gen I), Kingdra couldn’t just be killed like most other Pokemon. It would be hard to take down, and would’ve been safely in UU, or even OU.

    Hex 9A/Decimal 122 and Hex 7F/Decimal 127: Phanpy and Donphan

    Notes: Famous for appearing in the first movie, one must indeed wonder if Donphan was indeed conceptualized from the start, and Donphan appeared because he was among the original 190. Though given that Marill does not appear whenever one of the Missingnos is transferred to Gen II games, this could be a coincidence. Or perhaps not, since Snubbull was also supposedly one of the 190. The first movie was also the first time that Rollout was shown. Perhaps they didn’t want to program in Rollout, and hence held back Donphan and Miltank. Then again, Jigglypuff, Golem, Electrode, Snorlax, and Azumarill (as well as their family) also got Rollout as well in Gen II, so perhaps not.

    Even with a high Attack and Defense, Donphan’s poor Special and Speed wouldn’t have won him many fans in Gen I anyways.

    Hex 86/Decimal 134: Porygon 2

    Notes: Like Kingdra, I have to wonder if the plan was to originally have Porygon evolve just like Kadabra, Machoke, and Graveller.

    With decent bulk and great Special coupled with a diverse movepool, Porygon 2 would’ve probably done extremely well in the lower tiers. Porygon definitely needed the evolution.

    Hex 87/Decimal 135: Stantler

    Notes: Being one of those “filler” Pokemon, I’m not surprised that Stantler made it into the original games.

    Hex 89/Decimal 137: Smeargle

    Notes: Yet another one of those novelty Pokemon, albeit one of the more useful ones, one must wonder why Smeargle was cut from the original games. I’m thinking that this was probably for the best, seeing as how considering that there wasn’t any breeding mechanic at the time, Chain Smeargling would’ve been impossible anyways. And it wasn’t until later that Smeargle truly became useful. Ditto was a much better, simpler novelty Pokemon (plus Mew also uses Transform as a bonus, which was probably further reason to program in Ditto and his signature move).

    It would’ve been nearly impossible to Sketch the really good moves for Smeargle in the original games.

    Hex 8C/Decimal 140: Tyrogue

    Notes: Now this brings up a really interesting idea: what if the breeding mechanic was already thought up from the start, but not implemented due to being short on time and space in the game’s programming? It would make perfect sense, and would’ve made it possible to not only have rare, one off Pokemon such Bulbasaur Charmander, Squirtle, Eevee, Hitmonlee, Hitmonchan, Omanyte, and Kabuto in the Pokedex, as well as their evolved forms (if any), but it would’ve also allowed you to keep one of them for yourself. It just meshes so well with this whole thing about having to trade in order to obtain them all.

    Hex 92/Decimal 146: Hitmontop

    Notes: My guess is that when Game Freak couldn’t implement the breeding mechanics into the original games, they decided to drop one of the fighting trios. After all, having to choose from two Pokemon is hard enough. Hitmontop might’ve been dropped because he was the more balanced among the more defensively oriented Hitmonchan and the offensively oriented Hitmonlee. That Clefairy-like beta Pokemon that was balanced like a top that appeared once was probably concept art for Hitmontop, and might’ve very well have been what Hitmontop would’ve looked like had he made it into the original games.

    I get the feeling that if Hitmontop had found his way into the first games, he would have also found his way onto quite a few teams like his brethren.

    Hex 9C/Decimal 156: Smoochum

    Notes: Oh, a baby Jynx. How cute. Too bad there was no breeding mechanic in Gen I.

    Hex 9F/Decimal 159: Elekid

    Notes: Oh, a baby Electabuzz. How cute. Too bad there was no breeding mechanic in Gen I. Interesting how Elekid showed up in the short for the second movie, though that was probably a coincidence. After all, so did Hoothoot, Bellossom, and Ledyba, which were most likely not designed for Gen I as well.

    Hex A0/Decimal 160: Magby

    Notes: Oh, a baby Magmar. How cute. Too bad there was no breeding mechanic in Gen I. Anyone know how well Magby would’ve performed in the Little Cup?

    Hex A1/Decimal 161: Miltank

    Notes: Miltank is probably one of those Pokemon that could’ve made it in the original games, if not for some certain factors: he decision to not include Rollout in the original games, which is almost practically her signature move, as well as Milk Drink, which is what makes Miltank really good, as well as the decision to not put in a breeding or gender mechanic.

    If she had made it into the first games, she probably would’ve been welcomed in the in the lower tiers, where her good bulk would be an asset, though without Milk Drink, she probably would’ve been stuck in NU.

    Hex A2/Decimal 162: Blissey
    Notes: The only way that I could see Blissey being in the original games is if originally, Chansey was supposed to evolve by leveling up, or perhaps by Moon Stone, unless I'm supposed to believe that they had thought up the concept of Friendship all the way back in the original games. I suppose that I'm not someone to discount some notion, but I do find it unlikely, compared to the alternatives (even that Blissey was not among the original 190).
    Blissey's other stat increases besides Special Defense were pretty minor, with 5+ in everything else. Given the fact there was a Special Attack and Defense increase by 30, I'd have to say that was the original intended stat increase for Chansey upon evolution in the Special department.
    If Blissey had been in the original games, I suspect that she would have ranked similarly to Chansey actually was: OU.

    Hex AC/Decimal 172: Raikou

    Notes: I almost find it hard to believe that they made two pairs of elemental trios. Obviously, if this were the case, the original intention might have been to track these three beasts in the post game, just like what was done in G/S/C and HG/SS.

    But I can’t help but think that these three were not of the original 190, partially because there weren’t any dual trios in any of the later games. If Raikou were in the original games, I can’t help but feel that it’s use would have been similar to what it was in G/S/C, which was OU. Raikou is a strong Electric type, and would have been quite welcome on teams.

    Hex AE/Decimal 174: Entei

    Notes: Same thing as for Raikou: I don’t think it is likely that Entei was meant for the original games. But if Entei were in the original games, there were very few pure Fire types that could rival Entei’s stats, even in G/S/C.

    Hex AF/Decimal 175: Suicune

    Notes: Same thing as for Raikou and Entei: I don’t think she was likely intended to be in Red and Green, but if she were, she would have been a welcome team member, just like in G/S/C.

    Hex B5/Decimal 181-Hex B7/Decimal 183: The Tyranitar Family Line

    Notes: Probably one of the most exciting Pokemon to speculate about, Tyranitar’s strength is as legendary as it is terrifying, and would have most certainly been a welcome team member, quad weakness or not.

    The question is, was Tyranitar intended to be a Dark type, like he is now, or was the evolutionary line never intended to change type, which, if I had to guess from appearance, was probably the case.

    If so, this is probably for the better, since even though strong, Tyranitar would have been weak against both Water and Grass type moves, as opposed to just Fighting type moves, making him hopeless as a solution to Mewtwo’s reign (well, at least until he got Aura Sphere. Now it is probably not such as good idea to use Tyranitar against Mewtwo).

    Besides, who would actually want to use Golem over the clearly stronger Tyranitar, except for in a lower tier? I can’t say the same for Rhydon however, who to his credit, remained OU in G/S/C, and only became BL in Gen III.

    If Larvitar and his evolutions had been available in the original games, if I had to guess, I'd have to say they would have been available in some cave or mountain: maybe Mt. Moon, Rock Tunnel, or Victory Road, but I suspect the Unknown Dungeon where you could catch one after defeating the Elite Four. While catching one at Victory Road before challenging the Elite Four might make sense, considering that the only trainers left to challenge were just the Elite Four, you wouldn't have had much of a chance to level up Larvitar anyways. This also matches how you can't obtain a Larvitar in G/S/C until after you beat the Pokemon League in those games as well.

    In any case, I think that it was a good thing that Tyranitar was held back, so he could become the Dark type we all know and love since Gen II.

    Hex B8/Decimal 184: Lugia

    Notes: If it is true that Ho-Oh wasn’t invented until during the development of Gen II, then the same thing probably also goes for Lugia.

    If Lugia had made it into Green or Red however, then he most certainly would have been welcomed on the team of many players. And because Ghost types weren’t effective against Psychic types (that and there was no Shadow Ball at the time), there would be not reason to have both Mewtwo and Lugia on the same team!

    Any thoughts anyone wants to share? Do you agree or disagree, and perhaps have your own speculations to share?
    Sorry if things seem a bit rushed. I guess that they sort of were!
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2015
    Sleepless likes this.
  13. Kurona


    May 12, 2014
    On most of your notes concerning Dark and Steel, it has been stated in multiple interviews that those types were created purely for the reason that GF actually saw Psychic was far too overpowering in the finished Gen 1 games, so they decided to fix it up for Gen 2.
    JES likes this.
  14. JES


    Dec 22, 2014
    Then this really gives a hint of what the Pokemon that had Dark or Steel types might have been, if they had been in Red and Green, such as Sneasel perhaps being a pure Ice type, and Tyranitar being a Rock/Ground type.

    This is assuming they were meant for the original games of course.

    And I just noticed that I didn't do any notes for Blissey, or speculate where Larvitar would have been found in the original games.
    Kurona likes this.
  15. Crystal_

    Crystal_ Something from the past just comes and stares into my soul
    is a Pokemon Researcheris a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion

    Dec 20, 2009
    I'm late but just want to clarify that the Pokemon names in parentheses near all MissingNos in that Bulbapedia article are just the Pokemon those MissingNo would become if traded to gen 2 games. Doesn't mean those were the removed Pokemon at all. In fact I doubt they had so much information defined about those Pokemon before they decided to remove anything. Probably just some designs as the OP says. They had to know which Pokemon would finally make it before working on stuff like wild pokemon encounters and trainer parties, a big part of the adventure itself, so it couldn't be a last minute decision.
  16. PokeQuality


    Jun 23, 2015
    I definitely want this conversation to keep going as long as possible and have more research done if possible (although I myself don't have extensive knowledge in this area). But I agree that speculating solely that the ones that make it into the game are the ones that are missing is highly improbable. They are entirely separate games that are capable of putting information in different areas, reworking indexes, etc. However, I want to point out one thing in particular that I find interesting:

    All the MissingNo.s sent back are next to each other in a mostly predictable order, with evolutions such as the houndour/swinub line being right next to their next of kin. Morimoto's confusion about Ho-Oh's inclusion might stem from how far up the index Ho-Oh is. Lugia is last, but Ho-Oh is the fourth MissingNo.? It really seems that Ho-Oh at this point had no connection to Lugia to be in such a vastly different position that is unlike any of the other MissingNo.s, and could mean anything from it not being a legendary at that time to Ho-Oh having been another pkmn entirely in R/G. We may not be able to confidently say that the pkmn sent back as MissingNo.s were the scrapped 39, but I don't think it's a stretch to find Ho-Oh's random, unique separation from the MissingNo. pattern to be VERY peculiar.
  17. Hyper Cutter

    Hyper Cutter

    Oct 25, 2010
    I don't think Gen II had been made at the point the anime started, so at the very least Ho-Oh's design (if not its color scheme) had to have been done by then since it makes a very notable appearance in the very first episode.

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