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Thundurus (Analysis)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by JRank, Apr 2, 2011.

  1. JRank

    JRank
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    QC Checks: 2/2
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    [​IMG]
    Thundurus

    [Overview]

    <p>Commonly referred to as a "genie", Thundurus is a new Pokemon introduced in BW. With its Electric / Flying typing, wide movepool, and the useful Prankster ability, it's a force to be reckoned with in the VGC 2011 metagame.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Special Attacker
    move 1: Thunderbolt / Discharge
    move 2: Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Flying
    move 3: Taunt / Thunder Wave
    move 4: Protect / Substitute
    item: Charti Berry / Electric Gem
    nature: Timid / Modest
    evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>The choice between Thunderbolt and Discharge is a tough one. Thunderbolt is stronger, but only hits one opponent, and while Discharge hits both foes and has a higher paralysis chance, it hits your partner too! Discharge should only be used if Thundurus is paired with a Ground-type (e.g Landorus) or a Pokemon with Telepathy (e.g.Musharna). The choice of Hidden Power is difficult. Hidden Power Ice hits Ground-types such as Landorus, but Hidden Power Flying gives Thundurus another STAB, and Electric / Flying is resisted by only a handful of Pokemon in VGC 2011. Once again, this depends on your team. If you have troubles with Ground-types Ice is probably the way to go, but if you have problems with Grass- and Fighting-types, then Hidden Power Flying would be better. In the third moveslot, Taunt stops Tailwind and Trick Room setup from opposing Pokemon. Thunder Wave slows down foes and has +1 priority with Prankster. Protect stalls out Trick Room or Tailwind, and allows a partner to KO a Pokemon that threatens Thundurus. Substitute, however, has the advantage of possible repeated use and can block status as well.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Charti Berry allows Thundurus to hold up an extra turn against the very common Rock Slides that plague VGC, but Electric Gem gives the power to OHKO Jellicent and prevent it from setting up Trick Room. The EV spread maximizes Special Attack and Speed for better sweeping capabilities. Timid is the recommended nature for Speed, but with Tailwind up, Modest is viable for increased attacking power.</p>

    <p>Ground-types such as Krookodile and Landorus are good supporters for Thundurus, as they can use Earthquake while Thundurus uses Discharge. Musharna has Telepathy so Discharge doesn't affect it and Helping Hand can boost Discharge's power.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Rain Dance
    move 1: Rain Dance
    move 2: Thunder
    move 3: Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Flying
    move 4: Taunt / Protect
    item: Damp Rock / Charti Berry
    nature: Timid
    evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>With Rain Dance, Thundurus can fire off 100% accurate Thunders, as well as support its Water-type teammates with pseudo-Helping Hand boosts to their STABs. Discharge should not be considered on this set because Thunder is so much more powerful, and carries the same 30% chance of paralysis. The choice between Hidden Power types is difficult, but once again, it depends on your team's needs; Ice for Ground-types, and Flying for Grass- and Fighting-types. Taunt stops Tailwind and Trick Room from being set up, but Protect can keep Thundurus alive for another turn.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Timid is absolutely needed for this set, as Tailwind support may not be available, and it needs as much Speed as possible. Damp Rock keeps rain up for 8 turns, but with most VGC battles lasting as few as 3 turns, Charti Berry may often be the superior choice. The EVs let Thundurus get as much Speed and power as it can.</p>

    <p>This set wants, though does not need, Tailwind support. Tailwind and Rain together make a fantastic combo for Thundurus. Amoonguss makes a great partner as rain rids its fatal weakness to Fire-type attacks, and Rage Powder lets Thundurus easily set up Rain and sweep with Thunder. Seismsitoad, as the only Swift Swimmer in VGC 2011, is a great partner for Thundurus, with rain doubling its Speed.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Grass Knot and Focus Blast each have merits. Though they get somewhat redundant coverage, their main perk is hitting Rock-types super effectively while also hitting a few other key targets as well. Focus Blast hits Steel-types hard, and Grass Knot takes out Seismitoad. Dark Pulse can be used to hit Ghost- and Psychic-types such as Chandelure and Reuniclus, but set up is usually Thundurus's main goal. Nasty Plot could be utilized along with a Rage Powder user such as Amoonguss, but with all the spread attacks and double targeting commonly found in VGC, Thundurus will have great difficulty surviving long enough to make use of its Nasty Plot boost.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Most Rock-types can at least 2HKO Thundurus with Rock Slide, and fear nothing in return unless it carries Grass Knot or Focus Blast. Even when faced with the threat of these super effective attacks, common Rock-types such as Terrakion often carry Focus Sash. If Trick Room goes up, Jellicent can hit Thundurus hard with Ice Beam or Blizzard. Gigalith has Rock Blast, which hits through Charti Berry, so if Trick Room gets set up Gigalith is OHKOing Thundurus.</p>
  2. Alakapimp

    Alakapimp All washed up
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    Also talked this one over with JRank on irc, he's fixing a couple issues I had, so QC Approved 1/2
  3. cosmicexplorer

    cosmicexplorer pewpewpew
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    Hidden Power Ice also hits Grass-types for super effective damage, and although Hidden Power Flying hits harder due to STAB, in the Tailwind sweeper set you imply that Hidden Power Ice doesn't hit Grass-types SE. Not really important, just confusing.

    In Checks and Counters, you mention that Gigalith can OHKO Thundurus with Rock Blast through Charti. It needs all 5 hits to connect to do so, so the odds of that succeeding are actually quite low.
  4. Kinneas

    Kinneas
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    QC Approved 2/2
  5. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio @Fighting Necktie
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    [​IMG]

    1/2
  6. Berserker Lord

    Berserker Lord unreliable analysis writer.

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    [Overview]

    <p>Commonly referred to as a "genie," Thundurus is a new Pokemon introduced in BW. With its Electric/Flying typing, wide movepool, and the useful ability Prankster, it is it's a force to be reckoned with in the VGC 2011 metagame.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Special Attacker
    move 1: Thunderbolt / Discharge
    move 2: Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Flying
    move 3: Taunt / Thunder Wave
    move 4: Protect / Substitute
    nature: Timid / Modest
    item: Charti Berry / Electric Gem
    evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>The choice between Thunderbolt and Discharge is a tough one. Thunderbolt is stronger,(comma) but only hits one opponent, and while Discharge hits both foes and has a higher paralysis chance, it hits your partner, too! Discharge should only be used if Thundurus is paired with a Ground-type such as Landorus or a Pokemon with Telepathy such as Musharna. The choice of Hidden Power is difficult. Hidden Power Ice hits Ground types such as Landorus, but Hidden Power Flying gives it another STAB,)Comma and Electric/Flying is resisted by only a handful of Pokemon in VGC 2011. Once again,(Comma) this depends on your team. If you have troubles with Ground types, Ice is probably the way to go, but if you have problems with Grass- and Fighting-types,(Comma) then Hidden Power Flying would be better. In the third moveslot,(comma) Taunt stops Tailwind and Trick Room set ups from opposing Pokemon. Thunder Wave slows down foes and has +1 priority with Prankster. Protect stalls out Trick Room or Tailwind, and allows a partner to KO a Pokemon that threatens Thundurus. Substitute, however, has the advantage of possible repeated use and can block status as well.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Charti Berry allows Thundurus to hold up an extra turn against the very common Rock Slides that plague VGC, but Electric Gem gives the power to OHKO Jellicent and prevent it from setting up Trick Room. The EV spread maximizes Special Attack and Speed for better sweeping capabilities. Timid is the recommended nature for as much speed as possible, but with Tailwind up,(Comma) Modest is viable for increased attacking power. Timid is generally used because with Modest outside Tailwind, Thundurus is 2HKOed (with Charty Berry) by Terrakion.</p>

    <p>Ground types such as Krookodile and Landorus are good support for Thundurus, as they can use Earthquake while Thundurus uses Discharge. Musharna has Telepathy so Discharge doesn't affect it and Helping Hand can boost Discharge's power.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Rain Dance
    move 1: Rain Dance
    move 2: Thunder
    move 3: Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Flying
    move 4: Taunt / Protect
    nature: Timid
    item: Damp Rock / Charti Berry
    evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>With Rain Dance Thundurus can fire off 100% accurate Thunders and Jellicent can sweep with Water Spout. Discharge should not be considered on this set because Thunder is so much more powerful and accurate in the Rain, and carries the same 30% chance of paralysis. The choice between Hidden Power types is difficult, but once again,(Comma) it depends on your team's needs. Taunt stops Tailwind and Trick Room from being set up, but Protect can keep Thundurus alive for another turn.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Timid is absolutely needed for this set, as Tailwind support may not be available,(Comma) and it needs as much speed as possible. Damp Rock keeps Rain up for 8 turns, but with most VGC battles lasting as few as 3 turns, Charti Berry may often be the superior choice. The EVs let Thundurus get as much Speed and power as it can.</p>

    <p>This set wants, though does not need, Tailwind support. Tailwind and Rain together make a fantastic combo for Thundurus. Amoonguss makes a great partner as Rain gets rid of its fatal weakness to Fire-type attacks, and Rage Powder lets Thundurus easily set up Rain and sweep with Thunder. Seimsitoad, as the only Swift Swimmer in VGC 2011, is a great partner for Thundurus, with rain doubling its Speed.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Grass Knot and Focus Blast each have merits. Though they get somewhat redundant coverage, their main perk is hitting Rock-types super effectively while also hitting a few other key targets. Focus Blast hits Steel-types hard, and Grass Knot takes out Seismitoad. Dark Pulse can be used to hit Ghost- and Psychic-types such as Chandelure and Reuniclus, but a set up is usually Thundurus' main goal. Nasty Plot could be utilized along with a Rage Powder user such as Amoonguss, but with all the spread attacks and double targeting commonly found in VGC, Thundurus will have great difficulty surviving long enough to make use of its Nasty Plot boost.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Most Rock-types can 1 or 2HKO Thundurus with Rock Slide, and fear nothing in return unless it carries Grass Knot or Focus Blast. Even when faced with the threat of these super effective attacks, common Rock-types such as Terrakion often carries Focus Sash. If Trick Room goes up, Jellicent can hit Thundurus hard with Ice Beam or Blizzard. Gigalith has Rock Blast, which hits through Charti Berry, so if Trick Room gets set up Gigalith is,(comma) OHKOing Thundurus.</p>


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  7. Aeron Ee1

    Aeron Ee1 Nom nom nom
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    Proofread (open)


    Changes in bold
    Removals in red
    Comments in bold red

    [Overview]

    <p>Commonly referred to as a "genie", Thundurus is a new Pokemon introduced in BW. With its Electric / Flying typing, wide movepool, and the useful Prankster ability, it's a force to be reckoned with in the VGC 2011 metagame.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Special Attacker
    move 1: Thunderbolt / Discharge
    move 2: Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Flying
    move 3: Taunt / Thunder Wave
    move 4: Protect / Substitute
    nature: Timid / Modest
    item: Charti Berry / Electric Gem
    evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>The choice between Thunderbolt and Discharge is a tough one. Thunderbolt is stronger, but only hits one opponent, and while Discharge hits both foes and has a higher paralysis chance, it hits your partner, (remove comma) too! Discharge should only be used if Thundurus is paired with a Ground-type (e.g. Landorus) or a Pokemon with Telepathy (e.g. Musharna). The choice of Hidden Power is difficult. Hidden Power Ice hits Ground-types such as Landorus, but Hidden Power Flying gives Thundurus another STAB, and Electric / Flying is resisted by only a handful of Pokemon in VGC 2011. Once again, this depends on your team. If you have troubles with Ground-types, Ice is probably the way to go, but if you have problems with Grass- and Fighting-types, then Hidden Power Flying would be better. In the third moveslot, Taunt stops Tailwind and Trick Room setups from opposing Pokemon. Thunder Wave slows down foes and has +1 priority with Prankster. Protect stalls out Trick Room or Tailwind, and allows a partner to KO a Pokemon that threatens Thundurus. Substitute, however, has the advantage of possible repeated use and can block status as well.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Charti Berry allows Thundurus to hold up an extra turn against the very common Rock Slides that plague VGC, but Electric Gem gives the power to OHKO Jellicent and prevent it from setting up Trick Room. The EV spread maximizes Special Attack and Speed for better sweeping capabilities. Timid is the recommended nature for as much Speed as possible, but with Tailwind up, Modest is viable for increased attacking power. Timid is generally used because with Modest outside Tailwind, Thundurus is 2HKOed (with Charty Berry) by Terrakion.</p>

    <p>Ground-types such as Krookodile and Landorus are good supporters for Thundurus, as they can use Earthquake while Thundurus uses Discharge. Musharna has Telepathy so Discharge doesn't affect it and Helping Hand can boost Discharge's power.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Rain Dance
    move 1: Rain Dance
    move 2: Thunder
    move 3: Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Flying
    move 4: Taunt / Protect
    nature: Timid
    item: Damp Rock / Charti Berry
    evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>With Rain Dance, (comma) Thundurus can fire off 100% accurate Thunders, as well as support its Water-type teammates with pseudo-Helping Hand boosts to their STABs. Discharge should not be considered on this set because Thunder is so much more powerful, and carries the same 30% chance of paralysis. The choice between Hidden Power types is difficult, but once again, it depends on your team's needs; Ice for Ground-types, and Flying for Grass- and Fighting-types. Taunt stops Tailwind and Trick Room from being set up, but Protect can keep Thundurus alive for another turn.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Timid is absolutely needed for this set, as Tailwind support may not be available, and it needs as much Speed as possible. Damp Rock keeps rain up for 8 turns, but with most VGC battles lasting as few as 3 turns, Charti Berry may often be the superior choice. The EVs let Thundurus get as much Speed and power as it can.</p>

    <p>This set wants, though does not need, Tailwind support. Tailwind and Rain together make a fantastic combo for Thundurus. Amoonguss makes a great partner as rain gets rids of its fatal weakness to Fire-type attacks, and Rage Powder lets Thundurus easily set up rain and sweep with Thunder. Seismitoad, as the only Swift Swimmer in VGC 2011, is a great partner for Thundurus, with rain doubling its Speed.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Grass Knot and Focus Blast each have merits. Though they get somewhat redundant coverage, their main perk is hitting Rock-types super effectively while also hitting a few other key targets as well; Focus Blast hits Steel-types hard, and Grass Knot takes out Seismitoad. Dark Pulse can be used to hit Ghost- and Psychic-types such as Chandelure and Reuniclus, but set up is usually Thundurus's main goal. Nasty Plot could be utilized along with a Rage Powder user such as Amoonguss, but with all the spread attacks and double targeting commonly found in VGC, Thundurus will have great difficulty surviving long enough to make use of its Nasty Plot boost.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Most Rock-types can at least 2HKO Thundurus with Rock Slide, and fear nothing in return unless it carries Grass Knot or Focus Blast. Even when faced with the threat of these super effective attacks, common Rock-types such as Terrakion often carry Focus Sash. If Trick Room goes up, Jellicent can hit Thundurus hard with Ice Beam or Blizzard. Gigalith has Rock Blast, which hits through Charti Berry, so if Trick Room gets set up Gigalith is OHKOing Thundurus.</p>


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  8. JRank

    JRank
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    GP Checks made!
  9. Human

    Human

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    Have you considered moving the Rain Dance set into the first one, making Electric Gem and Life Orb the item options and having Charti Berry in the Other Options and then writing up a bulkier set with Charti Berry? Modest 236 HP / 252 SpA / 20 Spe for example.

    Another thing is that Hidden Power Flying hits things harder than Hidden Power Ice and the main thing it hits that HP Flying misses out a bit on is Landorus and beyond that there is no noticeable unless you use Life Orb and have a Helping Hand Partner where HP Ice will then be better getting the OHKOs against even Hydreigon.

    Another thing that the mention of Thunder Wave also having the chance of fully paralyzing them was not mentioned, just that it lowers their speed, and that is another great benefit of the move, the chance of having them do nothing. One last thing, Taunt should get a mention for being able to mess with Amoonguss very well, especially in Trick Room.

    I should have posted this earlier, but didn't really pay much attention to the VGC Analyses on Smogon.
  10. muffinhead

    muffinhead b202 wifi vgc
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    hi
    what does this accomplish, especially against other Thundurus? the idea of a 'bulky' thundurus seems rather useless when compared to what max speed can accomplish.
    hp ice hits: golurk hydreigon thundurus landorus tornadus. all around better coverage. taunt stops amoonguss dead in its tracks, so hp flying is mostly outclassed.
    this is very much self-evident, and i am pretty sure the speed drop was noted only because of VGC's extreme importance of speed tiers.
  11. Human

    Human

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    Well, unless being 2HKOd by Adamant Terrakion instead of OHKOd is something small to begin with then go ahead and don't use a bulky spread I think that is an important thing to note. I also don't see what max speed can accomplish that the spread I suggested can other then hit Archeos and Landorus first, but for Archeos it will have the same problem as Terrakion and will be getting OHKOd. Another thing is that it gives it an advantage against opposing Thundurus if you use Electric Gem because you get a clean OHKO. I personally see it having more use for teams with Krookodile, a common ally to Thundurus, though which will turn Terrakion's Rock Slide into a 3-4 Hit KO (depending on their nature and if you use Charti Berry or not). However looking at it I will put Electric Gem as the main option for a bulky Thundurus

    Against Tornadus and Thundurus Thunderbolt is better and I explained the difference in overall power and coverage makes HP Flying superior because you will not be getting any OHKOs with HP Ice that you miss with HP Flying unless you use both Life Orb and Helping Hand, I did the calcs a while ago but lost them now.

    Yes, but for the VGC you will mention that Rock Slide has a 30% chance of flinching even if it seems self-evident because it is something important to remember. Something along the lines of this, "Thunder Wave will have +1 Priority with Prankster along with the main effect of slowing down foes and a passive effect of leaving the foe unable to attack 25% of the time." Just change up one sentence.
  12. Sixonesix

    Sixonesix
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    what

    It's perfectly fine as is. The first set works better on more teams than the Rain Dance set. It's not like Thundurus has to be super bulky to make use of Charti Berry, its base defensive stats are enough to take any Rock Slide (except +4 Atk Terrakion I guess) with a good amount of HP remaining. In fact, you'd have to explain why you think Modest with near max HP is better, since to me it seems like it's losing out on a lot of speed that it would miss greatly.

    Edit: Ugh late
  13. Human

    Human

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    As I said in my post above I explained why I think that a bulky set with Modest does have a niche. Another thing is that it gives you two opportunities for Thunder Wave which will give you a 43.75% of having them unable to attack each turn, for Taunt even if they Protect you get an advantage and it doesn't rely on absolute speed ties against Tailwind when using Taunt.

    Did some other calcs and from using Modest you will get a constant 2HKO against Hydreigon without Life Orb even if they use max HP, something that Timid misses out on.
    Show Hide
    255 SpAtk Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs 255 HP/0 SpDef Hydreigon: 47.24% - 56.28%
    2-3 hits to KO

    255 SpAtk Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs 255 HP/0 SpDef Hydreigon: 43.22% - 51.26%
    2-3 hits to KO

    One might argue that Hydreigon will be KO'd anyways, but with Tailwind support where you see the bulkier pokemon Modest becomes superior. It also will get the sure OHKO vs Landorus if they use max HP. This also works more anti-Tailwind due to the fact that you can use Thunder wave more often. In any case Hydreigon beats Thundurus in any situation.
    Finally,
    "<Sixonesix> we're looking for universally useful sets
    <Sixonesix> not niches that work with krookodile support"

    Then why is there a rain set for this? I doubt it would be universally useful.
  14. muffinhead

    muffinhead b202 wifi vgc
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    in complete agreement with sixonesix here, adamant terrakion is a terrible choice for a nature, so there is really nothing to gain...
    charti berry is mainly here to provide an extra turn of survival against terrakion / archeops / haxorus / <insert rock slide user>.

    modest nature doesn't give opponents only a 43.75% chance of magically doing whatever. otherwise everyone would run modest with a charti berry, which they don't.
    modest nature and 20 speed EVs only guarantees losses agaisnt other thundurus and archeops and landorus, ALL of which carry super effective moves against thundurus. why would you want to become slower than the most common enemies of yourself? im sorry if i come off as a bit annoyed, but really .___.''
  15. Human

    Human

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    I will ignore the part about Adamant Terrakion being useless, from my testing it is absolutely better than Jolly, but this isn't a thread about Terrakion, this is about Thundurus.

    I did say that bulky survives Rock Slide even without Charti and went on to say that Electric Gem can easily be the better item of choice which will let you beat opposing Thundurus 100% of the time and you will be beating Archeops 73% of the time opposed to 100%, but that isn't really common, Terrakion you pretty much lose to anyways, but you have another opportunity to use Thunder Wave or damage more.

    And the mention that at least one of their pokemon will not be able to do anything just around half the time while you can still attack is something very beneficial so I don't see why you push it away.
  16. muffinhead

    muffinhead b202 wifi vgc
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    because you could either

    1) run a bulky, slower set and use thunder wave twice before attacking.
    *or*
    2) run an offensive set which KOs its threats in one turn.

    this analysis have been marked as done, so I won't go any further (up to mods).
  17. Alakapimp

    Alakapimp All washed up
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    I fully agree with six and muffin.
  18. Sixonesix

    Sixonesix
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    Fine, "more of a preference" for universally useful sets then. That's why I was against putting the Rain Dance set first.
  19. Alakapimp

    Alakapimp All washed up
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    He meant merging the two, not moving it up six, but I also disagree with that.
  20. Human

    Human

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    Talked to you on IRC and I agree it does not deserve its own set, I agree that movesets are more important differences than EV spreads, however a mention of this alternate EV Spread would be very good in my opinion, but as I was saying they do play very differently, such as bulky Thundurus as team support as I was talking to with Alaka.

    I think the end of what I got out of it though was that Thundurus is very versatile, especially with Prankster. Another thing we seemed to get out of it though is that a mention of Thunder Wave should be said, not how I said it which just tells the effect of paralysis, but something more along this "<Alaka> prankster twave can be used as a last ditch effort to prevent an opponent from attacking..."

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