1. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

Tier Shift Metagame (THIS IS BW)

Discussion in 'Other Metagames' started by PureQuestion, Feb 17, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. PureQuestion

    PureQuestion

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Messages:
    206
    Now, there have been a lot of metagames trying to get lesser used pokemon to see use; indeed, I'd wager a fairly significant percentage have this as either a stated or indirect goal. But they tend to do it with very specific fine tuning, careful editing of movepools and abilities.

    Screw that.

    This metagame is all built on a very simple concept: All pokemon below OU have all their base stats increased by 5 per tier below OU.

    • Pokemon in UU get a boost of 5 to each stat.
    • Pokemon in RU get a boost of 10 to each stat.
    • Pokemon in NU get a boost of 15 to each stat.
    • Pokemon that were previously restricted to 1 HP are no longer restricted if they got a boost to base HP (in other words, Shedinja's boost is intentional)

    And that's basically how that works. It's easy to find some incredible examples, but let's just look at some interesting cases; I'm going to try to use some... infamous examples, to better illustrate my point.

    Even pokemon mostly regarded as jokes down in NU sound pretty intimidating with +15 to all stats:

    • Charizard may have that nasty SR weakness, but it feels significantly scarier when it's backed by 115 base speed, and 124 base special attack.
    But we can get better still.

    • Imagine Smash Pass from a 70/99/120/129/90/67 Gorebyss! Hell, you might not even need to pass!

    But that's just NU; +15 to all stats is a crazy amount; let's see what's fun in RU:

    • Archeops. 150 base attack. 120 base speed. Something dies.
    • Rotom. 60/87/87 defenses, 105 special attack (same as the base for the other formes), and 101 speed. Becomes an acceptable stand-in for last gen's Rotom-A, trading some bulk for a much better speed stat.

    Maybe defense is more your style, Amoonguss, a pokemon that already sees some occasional use in OU, gets a boost to a very bulky 124/80/90 defensive spread, with mediocre but usable base 95 offensive stats.

    Or perhaps UU is more what you're looking for?

    • Tornadus. I'm not sure he'll be staying UU, with the ban of the Therian forme, but for the moment, base 130 special attack hurricane off 116 base speed sure sounds pretty nice.
    • Mew, Shaymin, and Victini all have their solid base 100 spreads boosted to a much nicer solid 105 spread, pushing them up a speed tier and adding to their respectable bulk.
    • Porygon-2 gets a nice boost to its already great defenses, up to 90/95/100, with a nice boost to its special attack.

    The possibilities go on and on from there; it's a very interesting metagame to play; one where top threats in OU are usurped by pokemon they previously outclassed, it turning out that all they needed was a little boost to their stats.

    You can play the Metagame here:
    http://pokemonshowdown.com/

    On the ladder on the main server.
  2. GGengar

    GGengar

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2012
    Messages:
    72
    Idk how much this improves Lapras, but with your current ruleset it gives it a stat spread of 145/100/95/100/110/75. I mean with Lapras's movepool and improved bulk and offenses I feel like it could potentially put in some work in the tier.
  3. Yarnus of Bethany

    Yarnus of Bethany

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2010
    Messages:
    2,065
    If I can find the source code, I could do it.

    And I actually think the mons most improved will be the low BST UU mons who appreciate the stats more.
  4. Skyshayde

    Skyshayde

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2012
    Messages:
    365
    I may very well try and do this on my server.

    Well, I could mod the source for it easily enough. Not sure if I can change stats on a tier by tier basis.

    Might take a while, adding 5/10/15 to each stat.
  5. Nollan

    Nollan EV Master Nollan
    is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2012
    Messages:
    895
    Entei 125/125/95/100/85/110
    Entei would be a BOSS. 125 base atk Flare Blitz with Choice Band could work wonders, or maybe even a Flame Charge set.
    Regigigas 125/175/125/95/125/115
    Slaking 165/175/115/110/80/115
    Wow, they look scary...
    Medicham 70/70/85/70/85/90
    My new favorite revenge killer.
  6. Zarel

    Zarel Not a Yuyuko fan
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Battle Server Administratoris a Programmeris a Pokemon Researcheris an Administrator
    Creator of PS

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2011
    Messages:
    1,771
    That's a lot of work... I think it might be possible just to script it.

    And this sounds like it could be pretty fun.

    Increasing every base stat has a quadratic effect on defensive pokemon, and it's especially powerful on pokemon with low HP but high defenses, or vice versa. Cofagrigus, for instance. Chansey and Dusclops, too.

    It also stacks well with other boosts. Azumarill and Medicham would have some pretty obscene stats - Medicham's Atk would be higher than Deoxys-A's. Put a scarf on that, and damn, that's scary.

    Would BL pokemon be given +5 or not? I could see the argument both ways... after all, they're BL because they're not used in OU much (read: heavily outclassed).
  7. AJC

    AJC

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2005
    Messages:
    2,264
    sawk becomes 90/140/90/45/90/100 gg nu

    and 95/115/85/75/85/110 makes sawsbuck looks good outside of sun now.
  8. TIO

    TIO

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2012
    Messages:
    742
    When suddenly, Mesprit and Uxie became terrifying.
    With 90/115/115/115/115/90 and 85/85/140/85/140/105 stats respectively, they could both wreck some face.
    Shuckle laughs off everything with 35/25/245/25/245/20, basically becoming invincible.
    Pikachu becomes usable, with 50/70/45/65/55/105 and doubled offenses.
    Carracosta is scary, too, at 89/123/148/98/80/47 featuring shell smash and priority.
    Nidoqueen becomes more efficient at wallbreaking: 100/92/97/85/95/86. Really bulky too.
    I should probably stop now...
  9. HabibsHotDogs

    HabibsHotDogs

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2009
    Messages:
    260
    Some pretty cool things happen > The sudden rise in speed tiers in OU.

    Sceptile, Aerodactyl, Crobat, Weavile setting new speed standards and Jolteon would probably never be used anymore :P

    140 speed 115 attack Aerodactyl with decent defenses (esp in sand) will probably make a push at Terrakion's offensive rock dominance. I'm excited in particular for Amoonguss 124/80/90 defenses :P

    Virizion and Cobalion get the jump on the Terracotta and Water warriors, which should be interesting!

    Charizard/Feraligatr/Typhlosion and friends getting stats that rival the pseudo legendaries whilst Slaking gets stats rivalling Arceus, 175 Attack is humungous, esp coming of 115 Spd!

    For the lol fact:
    Kadabra will basically be the same as Alakazam with 135 SpAtk and 120 Spd

    Edit:

    Exeggutor with 110 Atk, 140 SpAtk and 70 Spd setting the new standard for weather sweepers
    Lol @ Shedinja with base 16 hp, OU Viable!!!
    Simipour/Simisage/Simisear will become a force with 116 base Spd and 113 Base offenses
    Tangela defenses through the roof with eviolite -.-
    Dusclops impossible to ohko with any move, a title even Cresselia currently doesn't hold..
    Lord Ghetsis likes this.
  10. Onicon

    Onicon

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2011
    Messages:
    1,044
    Almost every decent Chlorophyll sweeper in NU will be able to fight at Venusaur level, at least. And there are plenty of them.

    Venusaur 80/82/83/100/100/80

    Victribeel 95/120/80/115/80/95
    Sawsbuck 95/115/85/75/85/110
    Shiftry 105/115/75/105/75/95
    Exeggutor 110/110/100/140/80/70

    Nothing too special here, but overall solid. Exeggutor's 140 SAtk will hurt a lot.

    And Tornadus is darn scary. Starmie cannot revenge it anymore.

    Tornadus 84/120/75/130/85/116
  11. AJC

    AJC

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2005
    Messages:
    2,264
    Stoutland becomes 100/115/105/60/105/95

    no longer needs sand to be awesome.
  12. youngjake93

    youngjake93

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2012
    Messages:
    1,549
    Shedinja with 16 base HP!!!

    For reference, Deo-A is base 180 and reaches 504 with max investment and positive nature.

    Clamperl suddenly has almost 1300 sAtt and 386 speed after a shell smash!!

    Marowak gets about 650 Att

    Pikachu would have better bulk, Att and sAtt than Deo-A with 105 base speed

    Magneton would have roughly the same base stats as Magnezone, but 80 base speed instead of 60, plus the option of Eviolite.

    Ferroseed would finally be able to compete with Ferrothorn in bulk taking a big edge if you invest in only one side of your defenses.

    Chansey's physical defense more than doubles if you count BL as UU.

    Regirock in sand... base 105/215/240ish defenses with 115 base attack.. yea okay GG everything else in existence.

    Metagame full of Clamperl, Pikachu and Regirock.... lol they cancel each other out.


    Ooo Darmanitan getting 100 base speed and 145 base attack. Choice Band become viable and Darmanitan starts OHKOing like... EVERYTHING in sun? That 5 extra base attack would get a 30% boost from Sheer Force and 50% boost from Choice Band, it will make a big difference.

    Also, lol 125 base attack Kabutops would be scary to face.

    Ursaring: 105/90/90 defenses, 145 BASE ATTACK, 70 base speed. Oh my god.

    Golurk: 139 Attack!

    Lololol scarf Wailord: 185 HP, 105 sAtt, 75 speed


    Edit: You should subtract 15 from all ubers and make them legal. That makes them all pitifully slow except a few. Mewtwo would have similar stats to Alakazam, but with a lame ability.
  13. PureQuestion

    PureQuestion

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Messages:
    206
    This is a question I've been pretty uncertain on; some people suggested that they count as half steps, adding +2 in for BL and +7 for BL2. That could work.
  14. Zarel

    Zarel Not a Yuyuko fan
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Battle Server Administratoris a Programmeris a Pokemon Researcheris an Administrator
    Creator of PS

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2011
    Messages:
    1,771
    Heh, that's what randbat does, but it's a bit complicated.

    I think having Magneton, Chansey, and Ferroseed suddenly gain a bunch of stats might be problematic. Especially since Chansey's already a ridiculous mixed wall.

    We could deal with this by banning Eviolite, but I'm not sure if everyone will like that.

    (I might be biased because I've had to battle Chansey a lot. I don't lose against Chansey that much, but it usually ends up being a PP stall war with 4-5 of my pokemon against the opponent's Chansey and nothing else.)
  15. youngjake93

    youngjake93

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2012
    Messages:
    1,549
    +2 252+ SpA DeepSeaTooth Clamperl Water Spout vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Chansey in rain: 783-922 (110.59 - 130.22%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +2 252+ SpA DeepSeaTooth Clamperl Water Spout vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Chansey in rain: 568-670 (80.22 - 94.63%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    Clamperl was given +15s and Chansey was given +2s

    This metagame would not give a crap about Chansey's newly found mixed bulk. It is all about CLAMPERL!


    +2 252+ SpA Light Ball Pikachu Thunder vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 345-406 (48.72 - 57.34%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    Lol Nasty Plot Pikachu 2hkos standard Chansey with Thunder.


    Edit: +2 Modest Clamperl OHKOs EVERYTHING with Surf/Water Spout+HP Grass+Ice Beam, but it is outsped by Jolteon. Timid Clamperl nearly OHKOs everything, but is outsped by base 80 scarfers
  16. PureQuestion

    PureQuestion

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Messages:
    206
    Yeah, it's pretty similar to randbats in general, but I think if you look a the posts here you see something really big: The numbers are way easier to get a grip on. Anyone can load up a stats page and go "holy crap, that would be so much better with +10!" While trying to calculate values for different levels is... more complicated.
  17. Zarel

    Zarel Not a Yuyuko fan
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Battle Server Administratoris a Programmeris a Pokemon Researcheris an Administrator
    Creator of PS

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2011
    Messages:
    1,771
    I've set up Tier Boost in the development server.

    It seems to work, if any of you want to test it.

    Right now BL is +0, BL2 is +5, and BL3 is +10.
  18. PureQuestion

    PureQuestion

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Messages:
    206
    Holy crap that happened really fast. Way faster than I ever hoped.

    OP edited with a link, and references to "I'd like help getting this made" removed :P
  19. Zarel

    Zarel Not a Yuyuko fan
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Battle Server Administratoris a Programmeris a Pokemon Researcheris an Administrator
    Creator of PS

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2011
    Messages:
    1,771
    Things discovered on the server: Clamperl isn't that good even after a Shell Smash. Pikachu's probably better. Nasty Plot, and really fast without boosting.
  20. Arcticblast

    Arcticblast Danned Beucer.
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a SPL Winner
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2008
    Messages:
    5,405
    Last night, I realized that Alomomola is a pretty much unbreakable wall, and that Latias is good in absolutely every tier (I mean seriously Latias how do you do it? @_@). I've also been using LO Tank Regice; 95 HP, 115 Defense and 215 Special Defense (!) make it really hard to take out, and 115 Special Attack hits pretty hard. I'm not sure if Eviolite Vulpix would be better than Ninetales, but they're both awful anyway (dammit Drought be on something SLIGHTLY better).

    Double Rush with Stoutland and Sandslash backed by Sand Stream seems pretty effective; I didn't have much experience with it in the end because I killed my oppponent's Tyranitar with Regice...

    EDIT: What I think sets this metagame apart from all of the other "omg equal Pokemon omg" metagames is that this one doesn't try to make Pokemon equal, it completely blows certain Pokemon out of the water. I'd never use Venusaur with Victreebel and Exeggutor running around, and what's the point in Magnezone, Ferrothorn, Blissey, or Alakazam when they're suddenly outclassed by their pre-evolutions?
    Lord Ghetsis likes this.
  21. PureQuestion

    PureQuestion

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Messages:
    206
    Alakazam isn't actually outclassed by Kadabra; they end up with the exact same stats, and Kadabra doesn't have focus blast and thus needs to run HP fighting if he wants that wonderful coverage.
  22. Gerard

    Gerard

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2011
    Messages:
    4,370
    Could we give BL the +5 boost, BL2 +10, and so on, they are not really used in OU and some of them could be pretty cool when boosted a speed tier (Staraptor, Kyurem and Venomoth) or with a little extra bulk (all but Staraptor and unboosted Venomoth are pretty bulky). Chansey might seem to scary but she ends up with +10 Hp +15 Def/SpD which is a fair trade considering all the new scary treaths.
  23. Zarel

    Zarel Not a Yuyuko fan
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Battle Server Administratoris a Programmeris a Pokemon Researcheris an Administrator
    Creator of PS

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2011
    Messages:
    1,771
    k, done.
  24. PureQuestion

    PureQuestion

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Messages:
    206
    Base stats don't affect EVs. Chansey only gained 15 defense.
  25. PureQuestion

    PureQuestion

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Messages:
    206
    Okay so a couple people have suggested this to me and a few more have responded positively so I'm gonna throw out a really ambitious question here:

    If there were a Tier Shift Metagame Tournament, would you enter it?

    I might just try and run one if there's enough interest.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)