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Tier Shift Research Week - A Change of Pace

Discussion in 'Other Metagames' started by The Unlucky one, May 6, 2013.

  1. The Unlucky one

    The Unlucky one

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2012
    Messages:
    996
    Approved by Arcticblast


    Research Week - Tier Shift Edition!
    Hosted by The Unlucky one and PureQuestion!
    [​IMG]__[​IMG]__[​IMG]__
    Duration:
    May 6 - May 20
    *: This is an arbitrary date. This Research Week will end when discussion ends.


    Note: When you give out your ladder rank, please specify what rank method it falls under (Glicko2, ACRE). When you show your Glicko2, please also show your deviation along with it!

    Tier Shift Research Week is an investigation for Pokemon that have potential in the Tier Shift metagame, be it in stats, movepool or typing to possibly become an innovative choice in the metagame. These Pokemon haven't really seen the limelight and have been rather neglected for a bit of time. I (With help from you guys in the Tier Shift forums) have selected 1 OU, 1 UU, 1 RU, and 1 NU Pokemon that I feel could see rise of cool sets or the ability to fulfill a specified niche. Actually the title might be rather misleading; in fact, each installment (assuming there is enough attention for more to come) is probably going to last until the discussion ends. So keep up the discussion guys!


    If you have anything to say for these Pokemon, it would be great to share your thoughts on it and post them! It doesn't matter if you used them or fought them in a match, we would definitely like to hear your thoughts. When you do that, please try to back up your claim with replays if you can or some damage calculations. However, I still encourage you to try out the Pokemon for yourself!
    • Don't just shun a Pokemon right away, try and take a good look at the Pokemon, see how it may work and try and give it a spin on the ladder.
    • It's alright to theorymon here, but make it clear that you are theorymoning. However, at the end of the Research Week, we need to know how efficient our research subjects are in the Tier Shift metagame, as well as what sets work best with them.
    • Do not post in this thread complaining about the Pokemon we choose and/or suggesting ones we should do for future weeks. We want discussion to stay on topic about the Pokemon we are researching. Feel free to VM / PM me these suggestions, but don't expect the next research week to have all the Pokemon you suggested, or any of them.

    So, the 4 Pokemon we will be looking at this research week are Terrakion, Heracross, Kabutops, and Zangoose!

    .[​IMG].[​IMG].[​IMG].[​IMG].
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Questions to think about as this Research Week progresses:
    1. How useful are these Pokemon in Tier Shift?
    2. What sets can they run effectively?
    3. What problems does this Pokemon have?
    4. What edge does this have over other Pokemon in the metagame?
    5. What niche can this Pokemon fill in teams?
    6. Are they worth the team slot on your team or is it outclassed?
    7. If this was to rise in usage, what would you expect to see from the metagame?
    8. What teams do you see this Pokemon succeed in?

    Please make sure that there is a lot of discussion. This discussion can get really good! You can also talk about it on #othermetas on IRC as well. Hopefully by the end of this discussion, we can get a general consensus on how well these Pokemon perform and how they perform.

    Alright, time for the fun part of this! This will last for the duration of the Research Week specified above (April 19 - May 3).

    Taken from TNT's OU Edition

    The Research Week Challenge:
    • Users will use any number of the research week mons on their team
    • Users will attempt to reach as high as possible on the ladder with the Pokemon. Surpassing a Glicko2 rating of 2000 with a deviation of 75 or lower on the ladder with your registered alt will grant you a spot on the Hall of Fame: Platinum Class. Breaking past a Glicko2 rating of 1950 with a deviation of 75 or lower on the ladder with your registered alt will earn you a spot on the Hall of Fame: Gold Class. Crossing a Glicko2 rating of 1900 with a deviation of 75 or lower will secure you a Silver Class spot while a Glicko2 rating of 1850 with a deviation of 75 or lower will earn you a Bronze Class spot. Post a screen-shot of your peak and an importable of your team in order to achieve this.
    • Users will be expected to post their experiences with the Pokemon they use, the teams they used, the problems they encountered while trying to make the said Pokemon work.
    • If a user does not participate in the discussion, he will be passed over.
    In order to participate in the challenge, simply post what Pokemon you're trying and your fresh new alt (yes, this is mandatory). Post battle logs, experiences with your team on the ladder, and generally how a Pokemon has worked out for you: past or present.

    It has been noticed that the last few Research Weeks have been basically reduced to ladder runs. This completely defeats the purpose of Research Week where the idea is NOT TO see if a person can get a high ladder rating with an underused Pokemon but to subjectively assess as a community, whether that particular Pokemon is viable in the tier and discover its potential in the tier. In order to remedy this, an archive is going to be created, highlighting great posts.



    Participants (0)
    User and Alt List (open)

    Format will go like this: username - alt - ladder standing - Research Subject(s)



    Hall of Fame (2)
    Research Week Hall of Fame (open)
    Platinum Class: 2000+ Glicko2
    (none yet)​
    Gold Class: 1950-1999 Glicko2
    (none yet)​
    Silver Class: 1900-1949 Glicko2
    "Overall, because of its mixed bulk and usability, Mandibuzz is definitely worth a trial on your team."
    Username: Qwilphish
    Alt: Sgt. Empoleo​
    Post
    Set:
    [BOX]
    Mandibuzz @ Leftovers
    Trait: Overcoat
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Spd / 252 SDef
    Careful Nature
    - Roost
    - Toxic
    - Taunt
    - Whirlwind
    [/BOX]​
    Bronze Class: 1850- 1899 Glicko2
    Qwilphish - [​IMG][​IMG]
    "Although it does not gain any boosts, Skarmory is still as amazing as ever, walling many physical attackers on both sand and sun teams."

    "Overall, I feel Empoleon's special walling capabilities is what really make it shine. Being a Water type, it is an excellent check to Rain teams, something that Heatran cannot boast.."
    Username: Knight of Cydonia
    Alt: kni​
    Post
    Set:
    [BOX]
    Empoleon @ Leftovers
    Trait: Torrent
    EVs: 252 HP / 224 SDef / 32 Spd
    Calm Nature
    - Scald
    - Roar
    - Ice Beam
    - Stealth Rock

    Empoleon @ Petaya Berry
    Trait: Torrent
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    -Substitute
    -Agility
    -Surf
    -Grass Knot

    Skarmory @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 228 Def / 252 HP / 28 Spd
    Impish Nature
    - Whirlwind
    - Spikes
    - Roost
    - Brave Bird
    [/BOX]​

    Compendium of Great Posts (0)
    Archives and Stuff (open)






    A proper sign-up sheet should look something like this:

    [BOX]Username: The Unlucky one
    Alt: Finally a good spinner
    Ladder Standing: N/A
    Research Subject(s): Kabutops[/BOX]

    Remember to update your original post with ladder progress and comment about your experiences! With that done, we look forward to see what you have to say!
  2. Qwilphish

    Qwilphish spread the love
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2012
    Messages:
    577
    Username:Qwilphish
    Alt:ZANGOOSEN
    Ladder Standing:None yet
    Subjects:ZANGOOSE

    This badass mofo is about to wreck yo shit
  3. qazwerty99

    qazwerty99

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2011
    Messages:
    58
    I feel that the original post should contain the altered base stats of the pokemon, just to make it more convenient for people.
  4. Subject 18

    Subject 18
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 3, 2012
    Messages:
    1,033
    Username: Subject 18
    Alt: Lady Stoneheart
    Ladder Standing: None yet
    Research Subject(s): Zangoose and Heracross
  5. Unoriginal Name

    Unoriginal Name

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2013
    Messages:
    632
    Username: Unoriginal Name
    Alt: insertgoodnamehere
    Ladder Standing: N/A
    Research Subject(s): Kabutops/Terrakion
    WHO IS THE BETTER ROCK-TYPE?

    BTW, I ironically already have a Sand team with these 2 (Kabutops to counter Rain). Yay.
  6. bobbyvaporeon

    bobbyvaporeon

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2012
    Messages:
    680
    Username: BobbyVaporeon
    Alt: Mr. Magnezone
    Ladder Standing: N/A
    Research Subject(s): Zangoose/Terrakion
  7. Knight of Cydonia

    Knight of Cydonia dance commander
    is a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2011
    Messages:
    262
    Username: Knight of Cydonia
    Alt: by the way
    Ladder Standing: ACRE- 1894, Glicko 2- 2000 ± 75
    Research Subject(s): Heracross

    Heracross @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Moxie
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 HP
    Adamant Nature
    - Close Combat
    - Megahorn
    - Stone Edge
    - Night Slash

    Back again, this time with Heracross. I didn't think I would reach platinum class thanks to some bad luck and (ironically) an unfortunate run in with a Swift Swim Kabutops. My last battle just tipped it up to land neatly on the requirements.

    Now, Heracross. I decided to use Choice Scarf Moxie as I thought it would be the most viable set - fast enough so not every offensive pokemon outspeeds it, and powerful enough to do some damage. In my initial testing I found that on sun teams, it was outclassed by stuff like Darmanitan and in sand Stoutland is superior. This basically left rain. I tried to make a team that would support it well. Ferrothorn has Stealth Rock and Spikes to weaken foes for a Moxie clean, and Kyurem-B shuffles the opposition around to wrack up more residual damage. Ideally I would have Pursuit support as well to try and trap those annoying ghosts, but as I was using Politoed this proved too difficult to fit into the team.

    With this reasonable amount of support, Heracross can perform quite well. But when it comes down to it, I would rather use a different pokemon like Keldeo or Tornadus. Basically Heracross's STAB moves are too easily walled for my liking and its coverage options are weak or inaccurate (also I have not felt rage similar to missing a Megahorn in a long time) and can leave you as bait for too many threats. Furthermore it is sadly a bit too slow for tier shift, as quite a lot of other Scarfers are faster than it, and this left my team vulnerable to some threats and prevented some Moxie cleans.

    All this being said, there is satisfaction to be had in getting that first kill and the moments after, when under prepared opponents decide what they are going to send out to face a pokemon that is now basically carrying a Band and a Scarf at the same time. As such it will get you some sweeps and is a reasonable win condition.

    Team (open)
    Politoed @ Leftovers
    Trait: Drizzle
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
    Bold Nature
    IVs: null Atk
    - Scald
    - Ice Beam
    - Perish Song
    - Toxic

    Heracross @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Moxie
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 HP
    Adamant Nature
    - Close Combat
    - Megahorn
    - Stone Edge
    - Night Slash

    Swanna @ Life Orb
    Trait: Hydration
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 HP
    Timid Nature
    IVs: null Atk
    - Hurricane
    - Surf
    - Rest
    - Rain Dance

    Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
    Trait: Iron Barbs
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
    Relaxed Nature
    IVs: 0 Spd
    - Stealth Rock
    - Spikes
    - Leech Seed
    - Gyro Ball

    Tentacruel @ Leftovers
    Trait: Rain Dish
    EVs: 252 HP / 156 Def / 100 Spd
    Timid Nature
    IVs: null Atk
    - Rapid Spin
    - Scald
    - Substitute
    - Toxic

    Kyurem-Black @ Leftovers
    Trait: Teravolt
    EVs: 252 HP / 200 SDef / 56 Spd
    Careful Nature
    - Substitute
    - Hone Claws
    - Roost
    - Dragon Tail


    Ladder screenshot (open)
    [​IMG]
  8. Mr Omgness

    Mr Omgness

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2011
    Messages:
    216
    Alt: AllesKaputt!
    Ladder Standing: N/A
    Research Subject(s): Kabutops
  9. Mr Omgness

    Mr Omgness

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2011
    Messages:
    216
    Kabutops

    [​IMG]

    TS Stats: 70 / 125 / 115 / 75 / 80 / 90



    Just reached 1850 with my Kabutops team and the game that made me reach it was a pretty good one so I'll post it here: http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/tiershift-18589067

    I first tried Kabutops in Sand but the team didnt do that well, but now I managed to get a high win ratio (I won my last 15 matches in a row) with a weatherless team with some funny pokes. It looks a bit of a gimmicky team but it's actually quite effective.

    Kabutops speed and SS ban hurts it in this meta as well. On top of that it's defenses are useless because of it's weakness to fighting, ground, grass & electric (seriously, what a worthless defensive typing). And it also takes a punch from Scald, probably the most spammed move in this meta.

    Aqua Jet priority is quite mandatory and you do want Waterfall as a reliable STAB meaning it has 2 slots left for coverage. Stone Edge gets STAB and hits hard but shaky accuracy is a let-down. Last slot is reserved for Superpower or XScissor. X-Scissor seems nice to hurt the Grass-types it hurt, but it's biggest nemesis in this tier is amoonguss and that thing has it's poison-type to troll. Superpower is a good move for a choice pokemon yes, but not for one designed for late-game sweeping and revenge killing. I find that Kabutops dislikes that Attack drop more than other users of it.

    Anyway to make Kabutops work I actually made my team very supportive for it. I have 3 T-Wave users to make sure Kabutops outspeeds most of my opponent's team. On top of that I have a cleric to make sure I dont get trolled by Burn or Paralyze.

    Vs Rain it doesnt excel that much as well because it needs LO to be a devastating SS abuser, it's set back too much by choicing it. But if you arent up against a rain team a LO set is pretty crap. Pretty much the whole meta can easily KO it and it doesnt outspeed that much of the mons. With LO a lot of pokes dont get KOed either.

    Vs Sun it's pretty useless unless you run weather yourself. Pretty much all common sun pokes outspeed and OHKO it and it's Aqua Jet is crippled by sunlight.

    Kabutops has a niche as a late game sweeper but really has to rely on T-Wave support or needs faster threats eliminated. Honestly, I wouldnt classify it as an OU mon in TS.

    Some other thoughts:
    Ferrothorn again gets a spot on my team, this thing is just so good oO.
    Liepard really needs more usage, this thing wins games for me, it's insanely trollish.


    SS Ranking:
    Show Hide
    [​IMG]
  10. Unoriginal Name

    Unoriginal Name

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2013
    Messages:
    632
    No amazing peaks, but I'd just like to post my comments on Terrakion and Kabutops (and Klinklang, because he's just that awesome in Tier Shift).

    First of, Klinklang, though not able to outspeed and survive a Fighting attack, can easily set up on these two if they are Choice locked into a resisted move (or any move Klinklang can tank and still set up a Substitute). Take the Choiced hit or have them switch -> Substitute. Have your Substitute break -> Shift Gear. Substitute -> have it break OR if they outspeed at +2 Gear Grind/Return. I've just picked this guy up, and, my god, he destroys all 4 of these test subjects, Choiced Kabutops in particular.

    Anyway, enough about Klinklang. Kabutops has proven to be a... mediocre member of my team. Before adding him (before this was a Research Week team), I used Kingdra to deal with the rare Rain team which tear holes in my team. Long story short, I want Kingdra back. Although Kabutops and Kingdra hit a speed tie (assuming same investment, both Scarfed/not Scarfed and any similar nature), Kingdra is more reliabe as he can actually take a Special hit from some low-investment Giga Drain Victreebell. Kingdra has no weakness to Grass, no weakness to Fighting and can take hits from some Sawsbuck variants if he's lucky, unlike Kabutops. Long story short: Kabutops is not the end-all be-all Rain check I thought he was, but I'd recommend him if you need a Rapid Spinner who can offensively check Rain teams (Tentacruel is still better defensively).

    Next off, Terrakion. Sawsbuck outspeeds so he sucks as a Sun check. However, he is surprisingly speedy, even for Tier Shift, and can OHKO many things when holding a Choice Band. I've been swept by an odd Double Dancer 'Kion, and quiver in my boots whenever I see him in Team Preview now. Fortunately, most teams just run him as a Scarfed Sun check, but Sawsbuck still outspeeds in Sun, so, like Kabutops, he's very situational. Regardless, he hits like a truck when Banded, and [max Speed+ / max Attack / 4 Defense] seems to be the best EV spread for Choice Band/Scarf sets from what I've seen and used. Terrakion isn't as good as he is in standard OU, but can still wreck face in TS (or at least, wrecks more face than Kabutops).

    In summary: Don't used Kabutops outside of Rain teams unless you really need an anti-Rain Rapid Spin user. Terrakion wrecks face though. Klinklang is awesome.
  11. Mr Omgness

    Mr Omgness

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2011
    Messages:
    216
    Gonna go with Heracross now:

    Alt name: BrukItDown

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