Tired of Blissey? How about Togekiss?

[Hipmonlee]

Actually if you wanted to, Togekiss can wish!

I think people really need to get out of this wall mentality though.. You cant just rely on one pokemon to counter all special attackers.. You are much better off just countering special attackers individually.. IT is a lot more work, but it will pay off in the long run.

Have a nice day.

 

[Tangerine]

IIRC Life Orb Porygon Z Boltbeam is still a 2HKO on the Togekiss... Something Blissey doesn't have to worry about (unless it nasty plots, then you're screwed anyway), which is a major threat you should consider anyway

 

[StarWizard]

IIRC Life Orb Porygon Z Boltbeam is still a 2HKO on the Togekiss... Something Blissey doesn't have to worry about (unless it nasty plots, then you're screwed anyway), which is a major threat you should consider anyway

Choice Specs Adaptability Modest Porygon-Z Tri Attack is a 2HKO on most Blissey, and Hyper Beam is a OHKO. Blissey isn't safe from Pory-Z too.

 

[Tangerine]

Choice Specs Adaptability Modest Porygon-Z Tri Attack is a 2HKO on most Blissey, and Hyper Beam is a OHKO. Blissey isn't safe from Pory-Z too.

Specs Max SpA Porygon Z Tri Attack to No SpDef Blissey = 232 ~ 273

Porygon Z needs Nasty Plot to even think about KOing Blissey.

 

[StarWizard]

Specs Max SpA Porygon Z Tri Attack to No SpDef Blissey = 232 ~ 273

Porygon Z needs Nasty Plot to even think about KOing Blissey.

You're right, I had my calculations wrong. I though Adaptability + STAB made Tri Attack base 240 (x 1,5, then x 1,5). Nasty Plotted it is then.

 

[Shiny Crobat]

How much oes tgekiss take from a specsmnce draco meteoor? And compare that to bliss.

 

[StarWizard]

How much oes tgekiss take from a specsmnce draco meteoor? And compare that to bliss.

That is in the first post... SpecsMeteor isn't even a 2HKO with lefties recovery on the mix.

 

[Dragontamer]

The trouble with Togekiss being "nearly as good as Blissey" is rendered meaningless when it is weak to BoltBeam and Stealth Rock. That being said, it looks like an awesome idea.

If Metalkid's isn't down anymore, I wonder how it does against Mixape Close Combat.

Anyway, Having the effective defense of Chansey isn't that laudable, and Blissey does one thing Togekiss can't: Cleric.

The set also has problems with Steels. The weakest SDef ones, Skarm and Steelix can Phaze it out, although +2 Air Slash can 3HKO. Metagross is too much of a physical threat to stay in against. Magnezone just goes "LOL whut?"

And then there's TTar, who can use this set as a free DD or a Sub setup.

The fun thing with Phazers is that they're guaranteed to go last. (Roar/Whirlwind has a negative priority) With 60% chance of flinch, aka Hypnosis's Old accuracy, they are on the average going to flinch one time. Then there is a 36% chance that you'll get the kill. (chance of 2 flinches).

Its a coin flip that Phazers can't afford. They can stand one +2 Air Slash, but taking two of them ruins their walling capabilities (unless Skarm gets a lucky whirlwind into something harmless). And if you get lucky, the third will kill.

Magnezone... yeah... good luck with that. Lol.

 

[StarWizard]

The only problems I see:

While Blissey's only special weaknesses are Focus Blast and Aura Sphere (both practically non-existant, and the only one that will come with STAB is Aura Sphere Lucario), Togekiss has to deal with BoltBeam, omnipresent and way more common to get STAB.

While Blissey reaches 306 Sp. Def with a neutral nature and 0 EVs, Togekiss needs everything to reach 361, meaning SE Physical moves hurt a LOT.

While Blissey gets 600+ Hp with about half the maximum EVs in Hp, Togekiss needs ALL of them for a measly 374.

Togekiss gets Nasty Plot, sexy Air Slash flinch, I get all that, but Blissey has Calm Mind and a 20% freeze/para hax, which is similarly efficient. I don't think making Togekiss a different Blissey is any better than making it a NastyPasser, WishSupporter, ParaFlincher, etc. Mainly because the ''different Blissey'' Togekiss is mostly different in only one thing: Being worse.

I love Togekiss, it's by far the best Normal/Flying type, one of the sexiest support pokémon, and the 60% Air Slash flinch is *really* annoying. I think gearing the nature and EVs to support his strenghts is far better than doing so to support his not-so-good abilities. I guess if you hate Blissey with that much a passion then you can find in Togekiss a halfway decent special ''wall'', but know that you'll be settling for mediocrity, plain and simple. Heck Togekiss doesn't even eat Draco Meteor better, because it lacks the threat of Ice Beaming the Dragon away. What are you gonna do to Salamence/Garchomp? Roost? Pray it's not mixed? Because if it is, the first Meteor + a strong physical move kills Togekiss.

 

[General Tso]

Interesting, can I get some calcs on Jolteon Thunderbolts with Timid max Sp Atk?

 

[Expertise]

Togekiss's rock weakness and low defensive abilities are a turn-off for me. I'd definately include light screen if possible.

 

[StarWizard]

Interesting, can I get some calcs on Jolteon Thunderbolts with Timid max Sp Atk?

185-218, which is 49%-58%. Togekiss has a low chance of surviving, with lefties factored in.

Edit - Some additional calculations:

A non-STAB'ed Bolt/Beam is a guaranteed 2HKO on max hp/sdef Calm Togekiss if the attacker has at least 519 Sp. Atk, or 346 + Choice Specs/Calm Mind, or 260 + Nasty Plot/Berry boost.

A STAB'ed Bolt/Beam is a guaranteed 2HKO on max hp/sdef Calm Togekiss if the attacker has at least 344 Sp. Atk, or 230 + Choice Specs/Calm Mind, or 172 + Nasty Plot/Berry boost.

 

[Dragontamer]

The only problems I see:

While Blissey's only special weaknesses are Focus Blast and Aura Sphere (both practically non-existant, and the only one that will come with STAB is Aura Sphere Lucario), Togekiss has to deal with BoltBeam, omnipresent and way more common to get STAB.

While Blissey reaches 306 Sp. Def with a neutral nature and 0 EVs, Togekiss needs everything to reach 361, meaning SE Physical moves hurt a LOT.

Hold right there for a sec. As shown in the first post, a 255/255 Def Bold Blissey only beats Togekiss by 2 Defense Tiers in physical defenses. With 255 HP evs and 0 Def EVs, This Togekiss takes neutral physical hits better than 0/0 Garchomp (118.54) and is most comparable to 0/0 T-Tar (119.37). (and 0/0 Skarm as well... but who uses 0/0 skarm?) Granted, Garchomp and T-Tar are "sturdy enough" because if you don't kill them in one hit... they kill you. But these guys can take some abuse... as long as it isn't one of their 4x weaknesses...

From there, Super-Effective physical hits is a 7.27 penelty in the tier system, so Super-Effective hits like Ice Punch or Stone Edge will place Togekiss in tier 111... or about how Jolteon would take it.

This togekiss is no tank on the phsyical side. Standard Blissey beats this togekiss yet again here. But I wouldn't describe this amount of damage as "A LOT" as this Togekiss clearly takes hits better than say... a defensive Starmie.

For Reference... MixApe Close Combat or Flare Blitz with Life Orb deals 50.27% - 59.09%... making a 2-hit KO the majority of the time :-( (Just here because everyone seems to want this calculation)

While Blissey gets 600+ Hp with about half the maximum EVs in Hp, Togekiss needs ALL of them for a measly 374.

Yeah, 255/0 Blissey is like 5 defense tiers higher... Then again, Blissey is so absurd its crazy. It takes 255/255 for Regice to get to 0/0 Blissey's tier... ignoring its multiple weaknesses, few resistances and so forth. And Regice is the #3 statistical candidate in Sp. Walls, falling behind only to Chansey and Blissey. Aside from Regice, no other pokemon in the game can meet a 0/0 Blissey in Sp. Def... no matter how many EVs they put into HP and Def... although Shuckle, Basteodon and a few other rocks are exceptions because they gain an additional Sp. Def boost from Sandstorm boost. T-Tar just misses Blissey's tier by .03 points... only fractions of a percent worse than 0/0 Blissey in Sp. Def in a sandstorm with 255/255 Evs.... but I digress :-p

Blissey really is godly in terms of Special Walls.

Togekiss gets Nasty Plot, sexy Air Slash flinch, I get all that, but Blissey has Calm Mind and a 20% freeze/para hax, which is similarly efficient. I don't think making Togekiss a different Blissey is any better than making it a NastyPasser, WishSupporter, ParaFlincher, etc. Mainly because the ''different Blissey'' Togekiss is mostly different in only one thing: Being worse.

Well, the key difference is Nasty Plot on this Togekiss as well as a single STAB attack that is only 4x resisted by Rock/Steel and Magnezone. This is one step away from wall, one step closer to sweeping. Quite literally in every way actually. Togekiss is slightly faster than Blissey/Cresselia, and has significantly stronger Sp. Atk and Nasty Plot instead of Calm Mind to boost Sp. Atk.

Although, I've run ParaFlinch before... and I personally like this defensive set a bit better. Paralysis support seems like it has to come from someone other than Togekiss for it to work, because Togekiss just doesn't have as much defensive EVs as I'd like it to have. It needs to either have Paralysis suport prior to the event... or inflict it by itself.

And if they're slower than you already, Paralysis doesn't add too much. It turns their 40% chance of attacking into a 30% chance.

I love Togekiss, it's by far the best Normal/Flying type, one of the sexiest support pokémon, and the 60% Air Slash flinch is *really* annoying. I think gearing the nature and EVs to support his strenghts is far better than doing so to support his not-so-good abilities. I guess if you hate Blissey with that much a passion then you can find in Togekiss a halfway decent special ''wall'', but know that you'll be settling for mediocrity, plain and simple. Heck Togekiss doesn't even eat Draco Meteor better, because it lacks the threat of Ice Beaming the Dragon away. What are you gonna do to Salamence/Garchomp? Roost? Pray it's not mixed? Because if it is, the first Meteor + a strong physical move kills Togekiss.

Hmm... some fair points. Maybe the premature sucess in Shoddy is that most people are obsessed with using BL or UU pokemon in their teams, and obviously this Togekiss absolutely walls them. I guess more play testing with some full blown OU teams will change my opinion of it.

Well... at least it beats ChainChomp >.>

 

[StarWizard]

The thing is, Dragontamer, that your system doesn't (apparently) account for Hp. So what if Togekiss takes physical hits ''better'' than Blissey? blissey has almost twice more Hp. Blissey isn't OHKO'ed by some +/max Atk STAB'ed Close Combats, while Tyranitar OHKOs max hp Togekiss fairly easily (without Choice Band, and it doesn't even need max Atk). Togekiss also has more physical weaknesses. Ice/Thunder Punch/Fang aren't that common, but the pokémon that use it do have strong attack. You mention handling Chain Chomp, but a +2 LO Dragon Claw should OHKO this Calm Togekiss, even though it can eat a Draco Meteor or two.

 

[darkie]

The thing is, Dragontamer, that your system doesn't (apparently) account for Hp. So what if Togekiss takes physical hits ''better'' than Blissey? blissey has almost twice more Hp. Blissey isn't OHKO'ed by some +/max Atk STAB'ed Close Combats, while Tyranitar OHKOs max hp Togekiss fairly easily (without Choice Band, and it doesn't even need max Atk). Togekiss also has more physical weaknesses. Ice/Thunder Punch/Fang aren't that common, but the pokémon that use it do have strong attack. You mention handling Chain Chomp, but a +2 LO Dragon Claw should OHKO this Calm Togekiss, even though it can eat a Draco Meteor or two.

I think it does account for HP, thats why he made them. Otherwise you could just look at base stats.

 

[StarWizard]

I think it does account for HP, thats why he made them. Otherwise you could just look at base stats.

I know it takes into account when numbering and everything, but no pokémon's defensive capabilities can be compared to Blissey without taking into account her Hp. Calm max hp/sp. def Togekiss takes physical hits worse than Blissey (mainly due to 3 weakness against Blissey's one), never mind having 100+ points in Defense at lvl100. The hp is still a lot higher, and Softboiled is almost strictly superior to Roost here (Roost makes Earthquake hit him, which is a big deal when battling Chain Chomp, and Roost also makes Close Combat and other fighting moves hit for SE, also important in some cases).

Dragontamer himself agreed Blissey is just Godly. And I don't see the point in making other pokémon look like Blissey if you hate her/want a change of pace. Just play your favorites, but to their strenghts. Togekiss does a lot of stuff Blissey doesn't, and what it does is really useful. I think gearing your EVs to have the defenses survive against common switch-ins and reach the sp.atk/spd breakpoints to OHKO/2HKO important stuff is more useful than going max hp/sp.def Calm, just to be able to take special hits nicely. It will still fall to powerful special hitters, and it won't be nearly as effective against other stuff due to the major EV overhaul.

 

[Pikachu of Doom]

Blissey is only weak to fighting. Togekiss is weak to Rock, Ice and Electric the latter two are on almost every Special Attacker in the game. IMHO Earthquake immunity isn't enough to merit 2 large type weaknesses plus 25% damage from stealth rock.

I've got nothing against a defensive Togekiss (Just don't make it blissey)

 

[Deck Knight]

I know it takes into account when numbering and everything, but no pokémon's defensive capabilities can be compared to Blissey without taking into account her Hp. Calm max hp/sp. def Togekiss takes physical hits worse than Blissey (mainly due to 3 weakness against Blissey's one), never mind having 100+ points in Defense at lvl100. The hp is still a lot higher, and Softboiled is almost strictly superior to Roost here (Roost makes Earthquake hit him, which is a big deal when battling Chain Chomp, and Roost also makes Close Combat and other fighting moves hit for SE, also important in some cases).

Dragontamer himself agreed Blissey is just Godly. And I don't see the point in making other pokémon look like Blissey if you hate her/want a change of pace. Just play your favorites, but to their strenghts. Togekiss does a lot of stuff Blissey doesn't, and what it does is really useful. I think gearing your EVs to have the defenses survive against common switch-ins and reach the sp.atk/spd breakpoints to OHKO/2HKO important stuff is more useful than going max hp/sp.def Calm, just to be able to take special hits nicely. It will still fall to powerful special hitters, and it won't be nearly as effective against other stuff due to the major EV overhaul.

Dragontamer's defense tiers DO account for HP. If they didn't Blissey's 252/252 Defense tier wouldn't be above Dusknoir, of all things. Blissey is also about 2 whole tiers above Regice, and Regice has a boatload more Base SD. Dragontamer did a lot of work on it, but I suppose some people just can't understand it without Quixotically charging a windmill.

Re Roost: Roost only makes Earthquake hit if the Roosting pokemon goes first. There is a 0% likelihood of any Garchomp set having lower speed than Togekiss, especially this speedless variant. Since it has Substitute, it can basically outpredict EQ'ers 100% of the time.

Oh, and Aggron, Probopass, and Bastiodon also resist Air Slash 4x. Any of them should warrant a switchout, because the likelihood is you'll either be smashed to bits by Stone Edge(Aggron), Walled to all hell and para'd (Probopass), or Phazed out (Bastiodon). Any of these in a Sandstorm beats the hell out of this set.

You could mitigate the main walls to Air Slash by replacing either Nasty Plot or Substitute with Aura Spere. No Sub means no Status protection, No NP means no sweep threat.

 

[Dragontamer]

The thing is, Dragontamer, that your system doesn't (apparently) account for Hp. So what if Togekiss takes physical hits ''better'' than Blissey?

Hold up... Lets pull out what I said again.

As shown in the first post, a 255/255 Def Bold Blissey only beats Togekiss by 2 Defense Tiers in physical defenses..

I said (standard) Blissey takes physical hits better than Togekiss. Specifically, I said Blissey is ~2 tiers above Togekiss physically.

I know it takes into account when numbering and everything, but no pokémon's defensive capabilities can be compared to Blissey without taking into account her Hp. Calm max hp/sp. def Togekiss takes physical hits worse than Blissey (mainly due to 3 weakness against Blissey's one), never mind having 100+ points in Defense at lvl100.

No no no. Togekiss has ~118 defense Tier score. 252/252 Bold Blissey has ~120 defense Tier score. Alakazam has somewhere around 108. It isn't a linear scale either, but an exponential one. So when you're close (1 point or so), you're really close. But 4 tiers is huge. Dragon Dance gives a 4.25 tier advantage for example. Super effective is again, 7.27.

Oh... and my calculation earlier was actually incorrect >.> Sorry about that. Togekiss's Physical defense is actually 118, and Blissey's is 120... I don't know exactly where I got the extra tier all of a sudden... I think I accounted for +Nature twice or something...

Anyway, its a different scale. The lowest score is ~98 for Pichu. (Technically, Shedinja is a 1 on this scale, but nevermind that... thats kinda a special case) Alakazam is 108. Scizor is 116, Steelix and Regirock hit 123. Its a totally different math system. Completely unrelated to the actual stats of the pokemon.

(well... actually, they are related. Obviously... else they wouldn't work. But it helps to think that they are unrelated... PM me for details)

 

[StarWizard]

Hold up... Lets pull out what I said again.

As shown in the first post, a 255/255 Def Bold Blissey only beats Togekiss by 2 Defense Tiers in physical defenses..

I said (standard) Blissey takes physical hits better than Togekiss. Specifically, I said Blissey is ~2 tiers above Togekiss physically.



No no no. Togekiss has ~118 defense Tier score. 252/252 Bold Blissey has ~120 defense Tier score. Alakazam has somewhere around 108. It isn't a linear scale either, but an exponential one. So when you're close (1 point or so), you're really close. But 4 tiers is huge. Dragon Dance gives a 4.25 tier advantage for example. Super effective is again, 7.27.

Oh... and my calculation earlier was actually incorrect >.> Sorry about that. Togekiss's Physical defense is actually 118, and Blissey's is 120... I don't know exactly where I got the extra tier all of a sudden... I think I accounted for +Nature twice or something...

Anyway, its a different scale. The lowest score is ~98 for Pichu. (Technically, Shedinja is a 1 on this scale, but nevermind that... thats kinda a special case) Alakazam is 108. Scizor is 116, Steelix and Regirock hit 123. Its a totally different math system. Completely unrelated to the actual stats of the pokemon.

(well... actually, they are related. Obviously... else they wouldn't work. But it helps to think that they are unrelated... PM me for details)

I think I got it now. Sorry for my partial ignorance, I didn't mean to disregard what you had already considered. But I knew something was awry, so I'm glad you noticed a mistake in Togekiss's tier :P means I was not imagining things, heh.

 

[Uxie FTW]

i think what makes blissy better is it only has one weakness while togekiss has more...

 

[Dragontamer]

Update: I'm currently using:

Nasty Plot
Roost
Aura Sphere
Shadow Ball

After Two Nasty Plots, it places both Blissey and Cresselia in a tight spot. Shedinja walls... but I don't think any other pokemon resists the combo (correct me if I'm wrong).

 

[spooterpot]

shadow ball is SE on shedinja.

 

[Kumar]

Update: I'm currently using:

Nasty Plot
Roost
Aura Sphere
Shadow Ball

After Two Nasty Plots, it places both Blissey and Cresselia in a tight spot. Shedinja walls... but I don't think any other pokemon resists the combo (correct me if I'm wrong).

Shadow Ball OHKOs Shedinja, if you don't believe me check it on the defense tiers (link found in your sig)

 

[Warlock]

Togekiss has stealth rock weakness, which makes it hard to get too many switch ins on the Sp.Atker, this forces you to heal half of the time giving them a free Physical switch in.