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Toxicroak (Toxic Stall)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by alexwolf, Mar 13, 2013.

  1. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    [​IMG]
    Toxicroak

    [SET]
    name: Toxic Stall
    move 1: Toxic
    move 2: Protect / Substitute
    move 3: Drain Punch
    move 4: Bulk Up / Ice Punch
    item: Black Sludge
    ability: Dry Skin
    nature: Impish
    evs: 244 HP / 252 Def / 12 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This set takes a more stalling approach and makes use of Toxicroak's unique traits. Firstly, its superb defensive typing allows it to counter some of the most threatening Pokemon in OU, Keldeo and Tyranitar; second, Dry Skin provides it with extra healing under rain; and third, it can lure and cripple most of its counters with Toxic. For example, Hippowdon, Landorus-T, Jellicent, and Sableye, common checks or counters to the other sets, all despise Toxic and can easily get Toxic stalled to death with the use of Protect or Substitute. This set also helps significantly rain teams to win the war of attrition against Hippowdon, which otherwise is quite a pain to take down.</p>

    <p>Protect works well with Dry Skin and Toxic; it enhances Toxicroak's ability to stall for Toxic damage and heal, allows Toxicroak to heal big amounts of health under rain, and gives it the ability to scout for Choice-locked attacks. Substitute works better against slower opponents and prevents status from the likes of Jellicent, Rotom-W, and Amoonguss, enabling Toxicroak to beat them one-on-one. Substitute also eases prediction and ensures that Toxicroak will hit the incoming Pokemon with the right move. Drain Punch hits many Pokemon that are immune to Toxic hard&mdash;such as Ferrothorn, Heatran, and Magnezone&mdash;hard, and provides Toxicroak with another way to keep itself healthy. Bulk Up lets Toxicroak defeat some of its counters, namely Tentacruel, specially defensive Jirachi, Venusaur in rain, and Skarmory in a last-Pokemon situation, while also making Toxicroak a bigger threat in the long term. It is also worth noting that Toxic + Drain Punch + Bulk Up is a great combination as it is walled only by a few Pokemon viable in OU, those being Skarmory, Starmie, Xatu, Celebi with Psychic or Perish Song, Espeon, Gengar, Reuniclus, and Gliscor, and of those, only a handful of these are commonly seen. On the other hand, Ice Punch scores super effective hits on some Pokemon that check or counter Toxicroak, such as Gliscor, Landorus-T, Landorus, Garchomp, and Dragonite, making sure that Toxicroak won't become setup bait for any of those Pokemon. For example, Toxic does nothing to Dragon Dance Dragonite with Lum Berry and doesn't KO Sheer Force Landorus or Swords Dance Garchomp quickly enough to prevent them from doing serious damage to Toxicroak's team.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>12 Speed EVs are used to outspeed uninvested Rotom-W and set up a Substitute before Rotom-W statuses Toxicroak, or to hit it for some decent damage with Drain Punch. The rest of the EVs go into HP and Defense to allow Toxicroak to hard-counter Keldeo and Terrakion. Sucker Punch is an option on the last slot if Toxicroak's team is desperately in need of priority, but Bulk Up and Ice Punch provide more utility overall.</p>

    <p>Politoed is a necessary teammate in order to allow Toxicroak to stall properly. While hard counters to this set are few, they all wall Toxicroak completely and make it a liability, so teammates to deal with those Pokemon are important. Weavile deals with Gengar, Celebi, Starmie, Xatu, Espeon, and Reuniclus to an extent, trapping them with Pursuit or hitting them hard if they stay in. Choice Scarf Scizor can trap some of those Pokemon too and can switch into most of them easily, while getting its Fire weakness halved in rain. Finally, Gothitelle is another trapper that works well alongside Toxicroak and deals with every Pokemon that troubles his partner; Choice Scarf Gothitelle is the best set for this job, as it can outspeed and KO even Gengar.</p>
  2. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

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    Venusaur? I know Earthquake isn't common on it but still it is immune to Toxic & resists Fighting.
  3. Magcargo

    Magcargo Okay
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    Bulky espeon and xatu are somewhat good switch ins if toxicroak lacks ice punch.
  4. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Thx guys, added those.
  5. tehy

    tehy

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    So why isn't Focus Punch even mentioned? If you're in rain, you're already getting 19% (18.75 really) of your HP healed, and you're often behind a sub with this set. So, and I could be wrong on either count here, but it seems like you don't always need recovery too badly and you generally have a safe way to use focus punch. With the lack of attack investment, Focus Punch lets you hit stuff hard, which Drain Punch can't do so much. And in the last slot I would slash Ice Punch first, it just takes care of a lot of stuff and stops you from being hard-walled, which Drain Punch causes a lot. Last-mon Skarm can still mess you up pretty good from what I remember, maybe post some calcs of BB's on that? (After all, all they need is to weaken you to where another teammate can finish off Toxicroak). Of course you can Sub endlessly I suppose, but I think that even if you Bu as skarm roosts you'd run out of Subs before skarm couldn't break them.
  6. shrang

    shrang I AM CHAMPION CHRISTMAS!!
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    This is one of those sets I would actually advocate a slash on Protect because this set is a stall set that abuses massive passive healing.
  7. ginganinja

    ginganinja Dating Haunter
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    Cmon man you knew I was heavily testing this set, (heck I was the one that told most of QC to test it before a thread went live) so why didn't you not discuss this with me :(

    I feel snubbed.

    Anyway I have tested this set extensively and its actually pretty good. I have quite a few recommendations however...

    -Sub is good, but I second Shrang when he said slash in Protect. I have almost exclusively used Protect on my version of this set, and its been so much more useful than Substitute. Free damage, free healing, the ability to scout choice locked opponents... its just great and it allows you to "get above the danger zone" of some hits. For example, I was able to go head to head with a Landorus-T simply by using Bulk Up, Toxic and Protect to wear it down, eventually forcing it out at very low health. Earthquake was doing something ridiculous such as 50% ish (and my spread is more defensive than yours), but thanks to Protect I could hold out until my HP was high enough for EQ to not KO, then use BU and use protect again. By the end of the engagement, my health was sitting at around 60% ish, with a free Protect in the wings. I could find more logs if you want, but I really think the logs I supplied to other QC members, as well as the personal opinions of Shrang and I should be more than enough.

    Substitute is a good move so you can slash Protect second (even tho I think it should be main slash) because Sub lets you beat Jellicent and Rotom-W which otherwise burn you which is really cool.

    -Id personally drop Ice Punch to AC. I get that its nice against Gliscor and Gengar, but both have outs (Gliscor can switch in, tank an Ice Punch (you only 3KO and still need to worry about protect), and can go for the 2KO, while Gengar can go for the Disable and still wall you (idk Sub Pain Split might still beat you as well but its 2 hard to calc quickly) so its use is limited. Its a good move, but you miss out on boosting your DEF (and attack) which means its harder to tank through those attacks (you also hit like a fucking girl so its harder to beat steels like Jirachi) and IMO just fits the definition of "Additional Comments". Bulk Up + Ice Punch would work well, but then you are just using the standard BU set so yea.

    -
    You need to sell me on this. The speed EVs im fine with, but the set I and others have used is basically 244 HP and the rest in Def with an IMPISH nature. It works soooo dam well, tanking Terrakion much easier (for example, I don't fear CB EQ since it won't OHKO and I can Protect 2nd turn, then switch for set up or something) and honestly, I can think of so many times that croak would have died / been unable to set up without the added defences and the attack just seems unneeded. Why should I care about OHKOing Terrakion when I basically wall it and do a shitload regardless. Is it really worth that fairly large attack investment when I could instead put the EVs in Def so I can do what the set is meant to do and WALL shit. Sell your attack EVs to me pls because it just seems like Defence EVs are just a better option for handling those powerful Earthquakes and Psyshocks that come your way. The set is a stalling machine, not an attacker.

    Because thats a different set entirely (Sub Punch). The sets focus is NOT to tank hits, its about stalling and cycling between Sub (or Protect) Bulk Up (to tank hits) and Toxic (to stall). In addition, Drain Punch is really nice for the healing it gives you as well as the fact that you will not always have a Sub up and Drain Punch doesn't leave you helpless like Focus Punch can.

    EDIT

    +1 252+ Atk Dragonite Outrage vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Toxicroak: 310-366 (84.23 - 99.45%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  8. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Focus Punch can get an AC maybe get an AC mention but nothing more. The goal of this set is to Toxic stall, not to hit hard. Without Drain Punch Toxicroak loses to SD LO Terrakion, SD Rock Gem Terrakion, and CB Terrakion, all sets that it walls with Drain Punch. You don't need the extra power anyway, as you are only supposed to use Drain Punch to get that extra bit of healing, or to sweep after multiple BU boosts. Finally, Skarmory can do absolutely nothing to a last mon Toxicroak. Brave Bird does ~35% to a +2 Toxicroak, and can't even break its Subs most of the times at +4, while Toxicroak comfortably 2HKOes at +6.

    Added Protect guys!

    Ginga dw man, we can talk the details here! I thought you wanted me to post the set, so if you didn't i am sorry.

    The spread is to OHKO Terrakion after it uses Close Combat, or otherwise it could survive with a sliver of HP left and 3HKO Toxicroak. However, if you have a better reason for a more defensive spread, i am all ears.

    About Ice Punch... I think it is fine where it is. It's not only about hitting some Pokemon that check Toxicroak, it is also about preventing dangerous Pokemon from setting up on Toxicroak. Would you want the opponent's Dragonite to get a free Dragon Dance against Toxicroak? Or would you want the opponent's Landorus getting a free Rock Polish, even if Toxic kills it after 7-8 turns (i don't remember how many turns exactly are needed)? Or would you want the opponent's SubSD Garchomp to get a free SD if it predicts correctly (Sub if you Toxic, SD if you Drain Punch), which it has many turns to try. Ice Punch has too much general utility to be neglected to AC imo.
  9. jrp

    jrp wanker of the highest order

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    I really like this set. It's a shame you lose out on Sucker/Ice punch, which cause you to be forced out by lati@s, but you can just toxic them on the switch and protect, then switch out to a check, which is a nice way to rack up residual damage. I've been using protect > sub like ginga has, but I never left it in on a landorus (I honestly didn't think it could take an EQ from it!)

    I agree that a defensive nature (impish I guess?) should be used as the recommended one though.
  10. Camisado

    Camisado

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    With proper prediction, you should be able to either get off: 1 Bulk Up+Drain Punch (SD sets), 2 Drain Punches, force Terrakion to -2 with CC (Choice Band), or use Protect+healing to PP Stall all 8 Close Combat, or KO with the single Drain Punch after a round of LO damage.

    I don't see how Terrakion should ever win 1 on 1.
  11. Cherub Agent

    Cherub Agent ium and me <3
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    weavile is a cute partner for this set, as in can beat all of gliscor, gengar, latias, jellicent, landorus etc if you lack ice punch. a sturdier pursuiter such as scizor is also a good partner as it can still deal a bunch of damage to landorus and stuff with CB bullet punch, and works well in rain. possible comparison to infamous stallrein? sure you're not damaging the opponent via weather, but you're also healing far more than walrein in a single turn, considering dry skin heals twice as much as ice body, and you also have drain punch. toxicroak has such a cool typing...
  12. Knight of Cydonia

    Knight of Cydonia dance commander
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  13. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Oh you are right! So making the spread 244 HP / 252 Def / 12 Spe with Impish for now.

    Btw with an Adamant nature and 0 Atk EVs Toxicroak always 3HKOes Keldeo with Drain Punch, OHKOes DDnite after SR with Ice Punch, and has a 87.5% chance to OHKO Landorus after SR, while giving it 3 more stat points than the other spread in its relevant stats. I think that it would be good to AC this spread to pack a bit more of a punch, and allow Ice Punch to OHKO some important targets.
  14. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
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    i tested this set on the po ladder under alt username "dwarf in the flask" for a couple hours and i tried all different variations of the set, the one below is by far the best (at least for the team i used, it synergizes very well with my other sweepers and takes out some key threats). i also tested with some pals and tried every variation of this set, once again the one below is proving to be the most useful OVERALL, not in every particular scenario but in the large majority of the ones i faced.

    move 1: Toxic
    move 2: Protect
    move 3: Drain Punch
    move 4: Bulk Up
    item: Black Sludge
    ability: Dry Skin
    nature: Impish
    evs: 244 HP / 252 Def / 12 Spe

    so yeah that's my two cents
  15. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
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    You'll get much more mileage out of Protect than Substitute on the main set. Protect is what lets Toxicroak heal off absurd amounts of damage in the rain. This match exemplifies why I mean:

    http://play.pokemonshowdown.com/battle-ou11963022

    So I'm basically backing up Lavos and ginganinja's idea of prioritizing Protect over Substitute.
  16. shrang

    shrang I AM CHAMPION CHRISTMAS!!
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    Yeah, you'll rarely see me advocating for Protect, but in this case, it's worth it, IMO.
  17. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Ok guys, done!
  18. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
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    [qc]1/3[/qc]
  19. ginganinja

    ginganinja Dating Haunter
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    -Nitpicks but remove Protect from AC now its slashed
    -Mention Xatu I guess as something else that gives Croak trouble.
    -Celebi and Landorus are real problems. Celebi has Perish Song or carries Psychic / EP and often has access to Recover (and has Natural Cure to avoid Toxic) while Landorus is just flat out using you as potential set up fodder or just OHKOing with EP.

    Prolly mention that with Sableye's case you need to hit it with Toxic on the switch otherwise once its in its winning. IDK, ill leave that line up to you man =]

    [qc]2/3[/qc]
  20. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Thx guys, will start writing!
  21. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    This is written! I removed Starmie as a partner as it can't really switch into most of the Pokemon that want to switch into Toxicroak (Garchomp, Gengar, Celebi, Landorus-T, and Starmie itself). However, i feel that i haven't listed enough partners and nothing that works particularly well with this set except for trappers comes to my mind atm, so feel free to mention anything that you think is missing.
  22. Pocket

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    I read through your analysis, alexwolf, but I think you are heavily partial to Substitute rather than Protect. You only have like 1 sentence on Protect, while you have a whole paragraph or two expanding on Substitute. You need to elaborate more on Protect's utility, seeing how it's the first move slashed. Check out PKGaming's replay and ginganinja's post to add more substance on Protect.

    awkward sentence - needs rephrasing
  23. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Ok added some more info on Protect and added the verb that was missing on the sentence that you said was awkward.
  24. Pocket

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    This is what you wrote:
    this is what ginganinja & PK Gaming wrote about Protect
    Basically, you did not emphasize what is truly great about Protect - it synergizes incredibly well with Toxiroak's ability, Dry Skin, regaining 36% of Toxicroak's health before it gets hit again. With Protect, Toxicroak can "outlive" its counters.

    In the other hand with Substitute, Toxiroak is carving out some of its health to protect itself from status afflictions from the likes of Jellicent or Rotom-W. Dry Skin does alleviate this health loss considerably, but it's still a net 7% loss in health (not a net gain of another 18% health like Protect).
  25. Glacier

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    See where I put the random letters? I think you should split it there into two paragraphs. The coordinates make the set comments a run-on. You have two different ideas , on being the sets niche and the other putting that into description and describing the set. That is why I recommend switching that paragraph there but you can still keep it but this is my opinion.

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