Gen 3 Tyranitar

[Hill]

I was reading the 'definition of an uber' thread, which was an excellent read, and found these posts:

I always thought of an uber as a Pokemon who overcentralizes the metagame. In other words, gives you far less options for a team with good coverage if allowed. "No counter" is pretty broad and somewhat flawed in itself: look at Salamence. It has less options than Arceus, but with the three best sets it can pick (Dragon Dance, but more notably, Choice Band and Choice Specs) it can hurt anything in the game. Not to mention the Choice Band and Choice Specs set pretty much hurt about anything in the game anyway. The same goes to Tyranitar, Rhyperior, arguably Azelf and a couple of others. They don't really have counters, but they're not uber nonetheless. So you'll need a deeper definition.

It's hard to draw the line between an uber and a non-uber anyway, and since nobody ever agrees on the Pokemon themselves, I doubt anyone will ever agree on the definitions too. I mean, look at the Celebi discussion in the past.

Nonetheless a very interesting topic.

mekkah said just what i wanted to say.

an uber, in my opinion, is any pokemon that if allowed into standard play would reduce the number of usable pokemon by a large amount, making the game less interesting and diverse.

I totally agree with these two posts. Even the part that says Tyranitar is not an oober in D/P, because many Pokémon got some nice boosts and we have a lot of powerhouses in there.

But, in advance, 9 of 10 teams are based on Tyranitar. It overcentralizes the metagame so much that a team with 3+ pokemon with no resistance to sandstorm is generally a weak team. Besides this, Tyranitar is also the most feared Choice Bander of OU play, with no decent counter. (Ok, Swampert is the best one and guess what, he's in 9 of 10 teams as well).

Also, it reduces the number of usable pokemon and itens by a large amount, like glen defined an uber, in his post. Pinch Berries are nowhere, Venusaur, Ludicolo and Heracross are disapearing too. Vaporeon is other good example. Even Weezing and Forretressare not appearing like they were before. The only things that can really survive in the actual metagame are Super/Legend Pokémon and few exceptions, such as Snorlax and Swampert.

I don't know if a discussion like this was already made and I know we've playing with Tyranitar allowed for years but i think we would have a LOT more fun playing without him. I'm not asking for a Tyranitar ban already, I'm just suggesting that we could try to play without him, in a tournament for example, just to see how it is. In the board I moderate we did something like that (A little bit different, because we banned all super/legend pokémon in a torunament) and we had a lot of fun.

 

[The Plant]

I sorta agree with you.I think its clear he really, really hurts the game and needs to go. Look, we've been allowing him for years but things do go un-broken for years and then need to be handled (say wrap in RBY) anyways we should at least seriously entertain the idea of his ban.

as a personal reason I've always liked and used milotic over the other bulky waters but with so much T-tar I can't use her anymore, and when I think about to use a different water I'd STILL probally HAVE to use Pert to stay alive. Thats just not reasonable.

 

[Mekkah]

It is way too late to change anything about the current Advance metagame. Unlike a lot of people I am actually pro-banning the shit out of stuff if it makes the game more fun to play and teams more easy to build.

Note how the point you say about CB Tyranitar having no counter is already addressed in my post: a Pokemon having no idiot proof counter is not making it uber. Medicham, Heracross, Slaking, Salamence, this game is full of things that are going to hurt the crap out of your team if you place your bets the wrong way.

 

[green_flash]

Every single team has so many good Tyranitar's counters it can't sweep anymore. Only afraiding thing about Tar is Sandstream, in all honesty; I've swept teams using Azumarill these days, and there were Tyranitar in the range. Do you want to use Milotic instead of Swampert? Put an high Atk Claydol (possibly a CBDol - it's awesome, Cercatesori's idea) or a Donphan in your team and you will not get swept by a Tar.

Tyranitar is cAcca.

 

[cookie]

To be honest Tyranitar isn't that hard to counter once you know its set; CBTar can be countered with prediction and if you lose to it it's probably because you got outpredicted, in which case you cannot complain.

As Mekkah said there is not idiot-proof counter to Tyranitar like there is to other threats, but that means you actually have to *think* about your next move, instead of just throwing Blissey at Raikou every time you see it, for example.

 

[Ouro]

Tyranitar isnt a uber for once reason, it dies a horrible death to the most common physical attacks; Focus Punch and Earthquake destroy him. 4x weakness to fighting mean anything?

 

[QuickDraw]

i think having tourneys where ttar is banned would be a good idea because it would let some of the pokemon that have gone into hiding come back out (anything that plays with a berry boost, choicebanders that don't resist sandstream)

i also believe that the metagame has become bogged with ttar on practically every team and that it should be put on the uber tier for a week or two just to see what it would be like without it.

 

[RaikouLover]

This is ridiculous... T-tar has 4X weakness to a common movetype. All you have to do is slap brick break or focus punch on a decent attack pokemon. T-Tar is by know means an uber, his attack stats are great but he's too slow. I lost in a battle tower because my T-tar couldn't handle a Nidoking... ubers change the game because they have no problem with their weakness (example, Mewtwo rapes everything, Lugia and Ho-Oh surviving 2 Zapdos T-bolts in GSC, any other electric they constantly beat with EQ)

 

[rtc3]

Do you want to use Milotic instead of Swampert? Put an high Atk Claydol (possibly a CBDol - it's awesome, Cercatesori's idea) or a Donphan in your team and you will not get swept by a Tar.

...which could be a potential waste of a pokemon slot, as opposed to a bulky water and Tar counter in one -_-

Anyway, banning Tar would be dumb imo, despite how it DOES centralize the meta. I mean, sure it's strong and all, but it's not uncounterable. And you may argue that Tar causes those counters to be on pretty much every team, but at the very least, having numerous decent counters is proof enough that Tar isn't exactly too good for OU, imo.

However, I do like the idea of Tar-less tourneys.

 

[Mekkah]

Every single team has so many good Tyranitar's counters it can't sweep anymore. Only afraiding thing about Tar is Sandstream, in all honesty; I've swept teams using Azumarill these days, and there were Tyranitar in the range. Do you want to use Milotic instead of Swampert? Put an high Atk Claydol (possibly a CBDol - it's awesome, Cercatesori's idea) or a Donphan in your team and you will not get swept by a Tar.

Personal experience about "sweeping with Azumarill" means little in most, and nothing in a Tyranitar debate. If you get swept by Azumarill that's not anyone's fault but your own. Choice Band Claydol is a dumb and old idea by the way, I've seen Pocket about it before but it just isn't as good as Leftovers. And it really isn't as simple as putting a Ground + Milotic on your team, seeing as Tyranitar can just use Focus Punch from max Attack or Crunch them to death. It's not that easy. Plus having to use multiple Pokemon for one Tyranitar is worse than only needing one.

Tyranitar isnt a uber for once reason, it dies a horrible death to the most common physical attacks; Focus Punch and Earthquake destroy him. 4x weakness to fighting mean anything?

This is ridiculous... T-tar has 4X weakness to a common movetype. All you have to do is slap brick break or focus punch on a decent attack pokemon. T-Tar is by know means an uber, his attack stats are great but he's too slow. I lost in a battle tower because my T-tar couldn't handle a Nidoking... ubers change the game because they have no problem with their weakness (example, Mewtwo rapes everything, Lugia and Ho-Oh surviving 2 Zapdos T-bolts in GSC, any other electric they constantly beat with EQ)

Focus Punch is moot. Focus Punch can't counter Tyranitar, ever. You can't put Focus Punch on a Pokemon and say "man I just countered Tyranitar". Earthquake doesn't "destroy" Tyranitar either. It is usually a 2HKO if you got STAB or some other kind of boost. Putting Earthquake on Salamence or Gyarados doesn't counter Tyranitar. Oh, and Fighting is not a common movetype at all.

Second person: what do GSC and the Battle Tower have to do with an argument about Adv NetBattle?

And you may argue that Tar causes those counters to be on pretty much every team, but at the very least, having numerous decent counters is proof enough that Tar isn't exactly too good for OU, imo.

There's Ho-oh and Mewtwo counters in OU, but they're still banned. This alone does not make Tyranitar not uber.

If you're going to argue whether Tyranitar gone from OU is a good idea at least use good arguments, please.

 

[Xpert]

i like this thread.. i've mentioned ttar suppose to be an uber lonnng time ago. maybe 2 years ago or more.

ttar/celebi/jirachi... imo shouldnt even be used in OU.

 

[Cerivious]

The point about ttar being too slow is invalid. Ttar would just switch in on something that cant harm it, say the standard regice, and start rock sliding away, which does healthy damage to an incoming counter such as swampert. (25% to my 252/136 pert)
I do not think ttar is uber, although it does have the power to destroy most teams easily, without much set-up required. Just like how celebi was banned once in a recent competition(ST3??), i would like to see ttar being temporarily banned in certain tournaments to widen the range of playable pokemon, such the the above mentioned milotic.

 

[Pocket]

Tyranitar had major influence on the game, but bleh, we've learned to deal with it. There are so many threats out there for one team to have a solid defense for all of them, so you just have to think quicker and bring out the proper counter before they bring their monster and avoid taking hits or other afflictions. Having varied offense helps with this.
I know that Hill didn't make this thread to propose a tyranitar-ban, but rather a restriction on events like the tour...and that sounds really interesting - it will definitely open up to some fun options.

 

[Hill]

I know that Hill didn't make this thread to propose a tyranitar-ban, but rather a restriction on events like the tour...and that sounds really interesting - it will definitely open up to some fun options.

Yes, that's exactly the idea of the thread. Playing without Tyranitar sometimes can open the metagame for some new stuff that can't be used with him and will let us use again Pokemon that are nowhere nowadays, like I said on my first post.

I think it's worth to try.

 

[Lou Cypher]

What I hate is the fact that T-Tar alone rapes several strategies. "Oh you worked your ass off to get a good well-placed Belly Drum in, now I switch in T-Tar and you'll die a quick horrible death.". Not to mention Endure strategies. I toyed around with DDance-Flail Kingdra for a while, and EVERY TIME that turd Tyranitar just stopped it. Even having 2 weather changers on the team didn't stop that from happening -.-

 

[Mekkah]

Tyranitar can be taken care of with a good lure like Shedinja, Sub/Berry Ninjask with indivisible HP, or just another Reversal/Flail Pokemon in combination with Dugtrio. After that, clear the skies and proceed to kill. Of course, it sacrifices so much team space it only emphasizes Tyranitar's domination. But that's how you can get it out of the way if it's there nearly guaranteed (provided your opponent doesn't know what you're pulling beforehand).

 

[Great Sage]

I don't think that Tyranitar is really that hard to counter in Advance. Sure, it's versatile, powerful, and has probably the most influential ability in Standards, but you also have to consider that it's rather slow and weak to two of the most common types in the game (Ground and Water), and Pokemon aren't as preposterously hard to switch in as they will be in D/P.

Banning Tyranitar is in effect trying to force variety with potentially bad consequences. So what if only a "few" good Pokemon can make it into Standards? The "few" actually constitute quite a diverse group, including both Pokemon that fall to Tyranitar and Pokemon that counter Tyranitar. So what if Tyranitar counters a few strategies? Old tactics drop off and new tactics are made all the time, including tactics that beat Tyranitar.

In effect, restricting Tyranitar would be a senseless effort by people whose favorite strategies are the ones that Tyranitar stops. When Tyranitar is gone, I guarentee that something else will become dominant and then other people will be complaining about those, generating a vicious circle that results in every single decent Pokemon being banned at the end. While some people, such as the topic starter, do have legitimate reasons for proposing a Tyranitar ban, I feel that banning Tyranitar is an unnecessary move.

 

[Mekkah]

I disagree, Tyranitar is a pretty unique Pokemon. First off, it means that you can hardly make a really good team without Swampert, unless you're willing to play a guessing game which set it runs AND want to use another Ground in addition to some kind of Boah counter on your team. And even if you use Swampert it can run it over thanks to Choice Band, Hidden Power Grass or Crunch.

And yes, it makes strategies useless. Banning them would solve that to an extent. Reversal/Flail wouldn't dominate anything with Intimidate, Gengar, Dusclops and whatever flying around. Without Tyranitar banned the game is less balanced than if it is banned, I think. Can you think of any Pokemon or strategy that suddendly becomes not viable if Tyranitar is no longer gone?

Yes, I can: Shedinja/Dugtrio/Reversal/Reversal/Reversal/Reversal...oh wait, you can use all of this to an even better extent now, except Dugtrio who simply traps one Pokemon less.

 

[Toby]

T-Tar T-tar T-ara ....

Personally, I see it this way: if you want to play games without T-Tar, agree to not run it with your oponent. Uber? I dont think so, along with Celebi and Jirachi, that word Prediction comes back into play. Predict and destroy. Try incorperating an underestimated weather move!

Hmm, or how about a pressure themed team?

I often dont think too much about him in the team making proccess, and just out predict him. I know where you guys are coming from, but I have never thought to myself in competetive advance: "Woah that thing should be uber".

 

[Carl]

Well when you remove one powerful threat from the game another one jumps right up to take its place. Remove Tyranitar and suddenly you have reversal teams all over the place and you've got Dusclops on every team. Your team goals shift from trying to eliminate Swampert to clear the way for Tyranitar to eliminating Dusclops/Gengar to clear the way for something like Heracross or Blaziken. Removing Tyranitar from say the tour or something is really only a temporary fix in terms of standard play. Whether it's too good or not, somethign else will become more viable and potentially overpowered. When played right a team of Reversalers/Flail pokemon is pretty scary. Are people really going to waste moveslots on pokemon for the weaker and most likely unstabed Quick Attack or a random Sandstorm/Hail here and there? If they do sure it counters the Endure pokemon somewhat but all we really did was just change the focus of what we should and should not attempt to counter with teams.

I'm not claiming that this is the result of removing Tyranitar just trying to give an example of what potentially could happen. If you take away anything from my post it should be this:

Whatever limitations you make won't make the game become more open or diverse.. it will only refocus it on a different set of threats that are now viable. So if you want to spice things up a bit then sure this would be a way to go... just remember it won't suddenly make teams more different or unique from one another.

 

[Veteran In Love]

I dunno about making tyranitar uber or anything, but CBtar literally can win the game with just one or two lucky guesses/predictions - it's not THAT easy.

 

[Mekkah]

When played right a team of Reversalers/Flail pokemon is pretty scary. Are people really going to waste moveslots on pokemon for the weaker and most likely unstabed Quick Attack or a random Sandstorm/Hail here and there? If they do sure it counters the Endure pokemon somewhat but all we really did was just change the focus of what we should and should not attempt to counter with teams.

I'd say they're easier to counter though. All sorts of Pokemon can be a Reversal/Flail counter and all you need is one moveslot, or even one Pokemon (Dusclops, for example). Compared to Tyranitar's "requires a sturdy Ground and you're still not safe", I would say that's an improvement.

I don't really think anyone can contradict that a metagame with Tyranitar allows for more diversity than one without. Which is why I think it's a good idea to play Adv without Tyranitar...as far as that's still possible with DP all over the place.

 

[Lou Cypher]

To breed on the Reversal Will Dominate thing; you do know there are a LOT of pokes with access to Quick Attack, right? Having just ONE with the move will help killing that strategy. It might give a Xatu more playtime as it has that 4x resist. It might give Shedinja more playtime, but then again, they often carry HP Ghost or something among those lines.

Without Tyranitar, its also easier to run Petaya/Liechi/Salac strats that don't per se focus on Reversal. An example is Manectric or Typhlosion, who can work quite well with Petaya activated. However, if they get their boost and TTar comes into play, they won't do much for long, they can't because unless they have a weather changing move, they'll die soon. And they can't afford that weather changing turn.



And its not like Gengar isnt on almost every team as it is btw >.>

 

[Carl]

Just to reiterate so we don't get 20 more posts saying my example is flawed:

I'm not claiming that this is the result of removing Tyranitar just trying to give an example of what potentially could happen.

And just for the sake of argument anyway... the use of a moveslot for Quick Attack removes a slot for another more useful or more damaging move. And the Quick Attack pokemon has to get into play to be able to use it so it's not necessarily a direct counter to the Endure/Flail/Reversal. Yes it's better than nothing and yes it would be easier to have Tyranitar which yes is the point of this discussion BUT to go back to my original post's point now my team has to be set up to have something with Quick Attack so ever so slightly the metagame revolves more around Endure/Reversal/Flail/stat up berries. You're always going to have something that's a threat that you have to counter and I guess all I was trying to get at was what will this really solve besides the removal of Tyranitar and probably less focus on Swampert use. The metagame will just overcentralize around something else.

 

[Problem2]

Tyranitar shouldn't be banned because of how easily he dies to fighting moves. Pure and simple. I can't stand how many times my Tyranitar fainted because of a surprise fighting attack. And it's not like Fighting type is something used JUST for Tyranitar. Fighting is a strong physical neutral to Skarmory, super effective against most other Steel types, and almost a must have to defeat Blissey and Curselax, so you should have it on all your teams.

The only thing I've thought was ever a bit too powerful was Celebi, a poke that can take non-stab Ice Beams and Flamethrowers all day and just recover it off like it was nothing. Every team I have has to have an HP:Bug or a Gyarados just to make sure that I don't get Celebi raped. I mean, even HP:Bug from Dugtrio doesn't always OHKO that evil forest sprite.

On top of that, Celebi has plenty of useful supporting moves such as Heal Bell, Leech Seed, Sword Dance, and Baton pass, and Celebi even has one of the best traits in the game: "Natural Cure"

What do the other two 100all's get? Mew gets Synchronize and access to every TM... yes I agree that Mew is just as deadly, but what about Jirachi? Jirachi gets this almost useless "Doom Desire" move that attacks later and Wish support for the Team at times. Meanwhile, Jirachi has a common weakness to Earthquake which ruins it (especially when Duggy comes in) and, unlike Celebi, Jirachi can't recover off the damage.