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Ubers CCAT 3 - Skies are Clear

Discussion in 'BW Ubers' started by jackm, Feb 12, 2013.

?

What Pokemon should we base our team around?

Poll closed Feb 17, 2013.
  1. Dual Screens Arceus

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. Ludicolo

    6.7%
  3. Power Herb Kyurem-B

    8.3%
  4. Substitute Darkai

    1.7%
  5. Smash recipient Dialga

    18.3%
  6. CM Arceus-Dragon

    16.7%
  7. SubSeed Shaymin-S

    6.7%
  8. SD Arceus-Ground

    5.0%
  9. LO Kyurem-B

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  10. CM Lugia

    5.0%
  11. Latios

    3.3%
  12. BU Dialga

    10.0%
  13. CM Arceus-Fighting

    3.3%
  14. Scarf Rayquaza

    1.7%
  15. Scarf Salamence

    5.0%
  16. SubCM Giratina-O

    8.3%
  1. blitzlefan

    blitzlefan shake it off!

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    Hmmm... SmashPass Recipient Dialga is winning, which means... ugh... Smeargle is up next, I would assume, as Gorebyss would probably be an inferior SmashPass user on a nonweatherless team. Personally, I don't really like SmashPass teams, as they rely on what I believe to be a rather gimmicky strategy, and this slightly limits our picks for what we can use next (4 mons to pick instead of 5). Lastly, to be honest, I don't believe Shell Smash + Baton Pass is anything especially innovative or creative, but hopefully, you guys can prove me wrong.

    Thank goodness. I really didn't want to run a SmashPass team! And honestly... who the fuck coordinates a thing to troll a Pokemon forum???
  2. jackm

    jackm

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    This is a point that I wanted to bring up. While I don't want to invalidate SmashPass Recipient Dialga (as it's a completely legitimate threat) I feel that choosing it will restrict our options too much and undermine the point of the question posed for the challenge. By building a SmashPass team, we are attempting to overcome the lack of weather and quite simply create an environment where weather does not benefit us because our goal is to push through the opponent as sweepingly (don't really know what word fits, you get the point) as possible. While this does produce the end result that we desire, I feel that we'll end up learning more and enjoying this process more if we leave it open-ended, due to our increased likelihood of coming up with something new. No offense, but SmashPass isn't nearly as underrated as some of the other choices; we all know how potent it is already, and the point of this challenge is to learn something new.
  3. barry4ever

    barry4ever
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    I've just been skimming through this thread with whatever scarce time I have on my hand and I felt as I wanted to address some stuff I noted. I see so many entries without any solid reasoning as why that particular set is good for a weatherless team. CCAT are supposed to make unorthodox teams, since its the journey which matters and not the end product, so we get something apart from the cookie cutter crap. But lets at least stick to making something which is competitively viable. For example, I see entries like Ludicolo on the poll. Why would you want to run a pokemon whose ONLY niche is rain ? A semi viable, Kyogre counter set or something ridiculous is possible but it would be nerfing the mon to an infinite extent.

    As other people have said, this being the starting phase of the CCAT, we should strive to keep as many options open to us as possible. Thus selecting entries which restrict us to a particular playstyles should be shunned since we will be losing the diversity a CCAT brings in to teambuilding. On a similar note, we should avoid trying to build around Arceus, expect unless using a more flexible Arceus variant. Arceus's incredible diversity makes it a very efficient glue. IF you team needs a mon tailored to a specific purpose, there's an Arceus for it (in most cases...). Especially with CCAT's where the teambuilding takes certain unexpected meanders, Arceus nominations should be saved for later stages, when we have formed a core. This becomes all the more important since in a CCAT we're utilizing the mon + checklist approach to teambuilding instead of have a basic framework + core + synergistic approach which is arguably more efficient, since as the endproduct can be visualized, team picks are more efficient.

    PS: SubNP Darkrai doesn't have to be on a HO team. It works wonders on balance as well.
  4. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo Is a Fox main.
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    That's interesting, why do we choose this approach? Isn't it possible for a member to provide the basic framework of a team featuring our first pick and then go on to list possible core members? After that point the two approaches get pretty similar and random people can still vote stupid stuff no matter what plan we decide upon. For example if that troll suggestion Dialga pulls through, we can draw up a general team frame work consisting of Dialga + Smeargle + offensive SR setter + revenge killer + priority attacker (cause Ingrain Smeargle would be the best way for us to run it ATM so we need something for Deo-S leads) + core member. Afterwards we can each give ideas on choices for specific roles and work from there. I've never participated in a CCAT before, though, so I'm probably missing something.


    Well, I did say push not force but I understand what you mean. I was thinking about weatherless Heavy Offense as I know Anik suggested it because he uses it on his own weatherless HO and really likes it so I figured that was the intended direction he had in mind. Anyways, I was more interested in the bulkish Dragons which was the other main reason why I excluded the majority of these picks. I felt these three guys were going to be more active in the battles they were in instead of waiting on the sidelines for the perfect chance to sweep.
  5. BKC

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    whatever we choose, please lets not make it a smashpass team...that is the trashiest strategy in all of bw, not to mention it doesnt make for a very diverse team
  6. scorpdestroyer

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    Good to know. I'd hate building a team of SmashPass. Looks like CM Arceus Dragon is winning now
  7. jackm

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    You people disgust me.

    EDIT: I suppose that was unclear, I meant to say that the people who posted the contents of the link disgust me.
  8. lousy918

    lousy918

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    how is smeargle viable on weatherless? its like an instant loss scenario to a combination of T-tar and Exca, even more so if T-tar carries Lum, and therefore u start 5-6 (Dialga may be useful)
  9. jackm

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    That's part of the reason that it was a troll. While I'm sure that the people didn't take it into account when they posted it, smashpass doesn't really support our concept at all and by illegitimately soliciting votes, it would win even though it didn't make any sense and would ultimately induce failure.
  10. gookie

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    CM Arceus Dragon is a decent pokemon, but requires a lot of support. Similar to Arceus Dark it performs optimally with Tentacruel to absorb TSpikes that would hinder its sweep, and additionally the use of this form limits your use of more common defensive Arceus formes like Steel / Grass / Fight. The most obvious thing is that Arceus Dragon is weak to Dragon so strong Steel-types are needed, making the playstyle most fittingly to be Rain Balance operating with CM Arceus Dragon as its win condition.

    I expect to probably see a Tenta / Ferro / Ogre / Gira-O core, but maybe you guys can surprise me with something equally viable but more interesting XD
  11. blitzlefan

    blitzlefan shake it off!

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    In terms of supporting team members, looking at Arceus-Dragon's set, I believe it will have problems with bulky Steel-types, and will also have trouble with opposing scarfed Dragon-types. Therefore, a good defensive Steel-type on the team will probably work wonders. I'm thinking either a Dialga or a Forretress will work for our next pick. Dialga, having a Dragon neutrality, can typically defeat other Dragon types, has Fire Blast to roast problematic Steel-types such as Ferrothorn, and can support the team with Stealth Rock. Forrestress can tank Dragon-type move aimed at Arceus-Dragon, use Rapid Spin to clear the field of Toxic Spikes, and has access to all hazards, making it an excellent supporting member. However, it has a 4x Fire weakness that we will have no control over (no Rain support and possible Sun, depending on the opponent's team).

    Also, Poppy, I believe that this CCAT doesn't allow weather, so I don't think Rain Balance will be possible (Kyogre).
  12. jackm

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    Umm yeah Poppy the OP explicitly states that we are not running weather; the question we're trying to answer is whether we can build a team that isn't improved by adaptation to a weather.
  13. scorpdestroyer

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    Dialga seems like a decent pick. Just asking, because I've never used / seen anyone use this strategy in Ubers, but: is DragMag viable here? Or just trap and kill strategies in general? (Wobba, Dugtrio, Magnezone) because removing opposing Steel-types is one of the best ways to support this DragonCeus (apart from giving it free turns for setting up a sub)
  14. gookie

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    lol oops, arceus dragon will still probably operate as a win condition with a defensive backbone. trying to make it not feel like an inferior steelceus is going to be hard as its niche is really... limited.
  15. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo Is a Fox main.
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    Actually, without weather and Arceus a defensive team will be eaten up by Latios. (Unless we run Jirachi + Heatran) I'm thinking HO/Standard offense would be our best bet if we end up using dragonceus. It would be an interesting offensive stall breaker in such a team.
  16. blitzlefan

    blitzlefan shake it off!

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    *bump* Hmmm... well after thinking about it some more, Hyper-Offense would work nicely, as since we don't have the benefit of weather-boosted attacks, striking hard and fast right off the bat and maximizing residual damage with entry hazards (I would like to nominate Deoxys-S for this role later if we do take this route) would *probably* be an effective strategy. In order to not get royally screwed by weather abusing Pokemon, such as Omastar and Kabutops, I think that Rayquaza could be utilized, and I suggest that we try using the double Dragon archetype, with Rayquaza to weaken Steel-type checks/counters while Arceus-Dragon cleans up late game. Any thoughts?

    Edit: @Sweep, we're most likely running Arceus-Dragon, so I don't think we can run Arceus-Grass. But as for the rest, I don't really know lol.
  17. Sweep

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    Well, you know my feelings towards Rayquaza!

    Omastar can be stopped by Palkia and Arceus-Grass, so long there is no more than one entry hazard on the field and Omastar isn't running HP Dragon. It is also very rare unless you are playing me. Kabutops, meanwhile, is handled nicely by Arceus-Grass and Giratina-A. Giratina-O can also beat it with some defensive investment. I feel Grassceus could do really well on a Weatherless team because it beats all major weather starters one on one sans perhaps Abomasnow.

    If we do use Rayquaza, I agree that the Scarf form would be the best. If we use scarf Ray, let's make it a mixed Ray to surprise dedicated physical walls.
  18. Melee Mewtwo

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    We can't use Grassceus if we use Dragonceus. (I shouldn't have given it my support, hadn't realized it would push HO. Herp a derp derp) Anyways, I like the idea of Ray to keep weather sweepers in check. I would definitely use SD Ray for that as it can pick off Blaze with Espeed as well (and the speed will make Ho-Oh cry). It'll be a good wall breaker but the dragon typing isn't going to help get rid of Dragonceus's steel type troubles.
  19. blitzlefan

    blitzlefan shake it off!

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    Well, as SD Rayquaza will most likely run ExtremeSpeed, V-Create will probably be okay to deal with Steel-types as the Def/SpD drop won't really matter that much (it's extremely frail to begin with), and the utility of +2 priority in ExtremeSpeed will help to balance out the Speed drop.
  20. Sweep

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    My mistake; you are correct. SD Rayquaza might be workable, though it is extremely frail and hard to set up.
  21. jackm

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    Gee, sorry I'm so late to this. Anyways, I am officially announcing that our base Pokemon is Calm Mind Arceus-Dragon. Congrats Hack! The OP will be edited to acknowledge this decision. As you all know, we are now on to the teamstyle selection stage. As we can't run weather, we have relatively few choices:

    • HO
    • Bulky Offense
    • Balance/Semistall
    • Stall
    • Other weird stuff like Smashpass and DragMag
    Now, I'd like to say it right now: No Smashpass. Just no. It is, and I quote BKC, "the trashiest strategy in all of bw, not to mention it doesnt make for a very diverse team". DragMag and other specific abuse strategies would probably fit under one of the offense/defense ratio styles, so we're basically left with:

    • HO
    • Bulky Offense
    • Balance/Semistall
    • Stall
    While I discouraged stall at first for being the least reliant on weather to get the job done, our newfound lack of the ability to a defensive Arceus forme presents us with a predicament that melee mewtwo briefly touched on; in conjunction with our lack of Kyogre, Groudon, and Tyranitar, we're going to have a really tricky time defensively beating Extremekiller Arceus, Mewtwo, Latios, and a host of other common threats. Because of this, stall is most definitely a viable style for us to discuss, although the handicap that we've presented ourselves with will probably discourage it from prevailing.


    Because of the problem with defensively beating these opponents, it's clear that the best way for our team to be built is in such a way that we can prevent these monsters from beating us through offensive momentum. Dragonceus' miscellaneous merits also tend well to more offensive teams; it can switch into scarf Water Spouts and Thunders and provides a bulky glue that also serves as a win condition. I'm going to let this discussion evolve a little before putting up a poll for team style, but you can expect to see it up at latest by Wednesday.
  22. Hack

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    Ok, nice, thanks for the support. My thought are that stall will indeed be difficult to pull off. In my experience with Arceus-Dragon, I have used two somewhat balanced teams, one rain team roughly consisting of Crogre, Ferro, Tenta, Giratina-O, Terrak and the Arceus ofc. The other was a more balanced sun-team which abused the fact that Kyogre can't freeze Arceus with Ice-Beam, making the set-up easier. It consisted of Groudon, Forry, Ho-oh, Latias and yet again Terrakion.

    As you see, these are pretty solid teams which are highly weather based. To build without weather puts some specific perimeters around our project. The first thing to note, is that in my experience, Hyper Offensive teams are best suited for weatherless build. However, the question is if my Dragoceus is suited for a Hyper Offensive teambuild, and for that I believe no. Arceus formes simply don't have the direct striking power since their meager 120 offenses, meaning it will take a turn or more to set-them up.

    There are, however, some guidelines we can follow:

    1. Arceus-Dragon is faster than all unboosted dragons which causes a tendency to force switches. Now if we have a quick way to spike-stack, these switches will be very costly and if they stay in, the will lose their dragon.
    2. Arceus-Dragon lures in Steel-types early to midgame if you reveal it, so it can potentially wear them down a little bit, paving way for other sweepers stopped by them, or giving us opportunities to pull off double switches to gain momentum.
    3. Another way check to Arceus-Dragon is the use of physical Choice-Scarf users like Zekrom, so I guess we can easily take advantage of that.

    Now I indeed believe we should land somewhere between HO and Bulky Offense, I think stall will be hard to build.
  23. Enguarde

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    A Balanced team seems more suited to this type and build of Arceus, as it does require a decent amount of support to function at its absolute best, since as Hack mentioned, Arceus just doesn't have the huge offensive presence off the bat, unlike the other dragons in the Ubers tier. He needs to have the opportunities to set up. That is having partners around you can take on scarfed Dragons and other faster Pokemon which can break through its chance to set up, whether they be bulkier and overall winners in a Calm Mind war, or simply faster and more powerful, possessing the straight up ability to take it down., such as Mewtwo which out speeds and can 2HKO with Psystrike while Arceus-Dragon will only have a 12% chance to OHKO at +1.

    We also have to keep in mind the competent players will not allow Arceus forms to set up as they please and will always have insurance against these Pokemon so as not be steamrolled mid game. Therefore strong teammates who can remove bulky steels and threaten common phazers are also needed. Even the physically defensive Groudon will be able to stop its substitutes and threaten with Dragon Tail.

    Spin support is also needed, as like any Arceus-Forms their great bulk is somewhat hampered due to their inability to hold leftovers and are therefore forced to recover and then threatened on a switch, or be a an undesirable HP stat to start setting up Calm Minds.

    Since a lot of the problems CM Arceus has to deal with is getting past Bulkier Pokemon which aren't afraid of Judgement, stall seems like it would struggle heavily in supporting it in this department, due to the lack of capitalising on strong weather moves to wear these Pokemon down and that other Arceus forms are not available to fulfil a specific need. So a stall does seem like it would struggle with having Arceus-Dragon as a key component, so bulky offence or balance is seeming like the way to go in my opinion.
  24. Melee Mewtwo

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    Well, since we don't have access to a defensive Arceus forme we can't run a viable defensive oriented team (such as Hard Stall, Semi-Stall, defensive balanced, etc.) as each opportunity that we give to powerful wall breakers (or well, only Latios as far as I can think of) will result in the loss of a team member, which is very undesirable for defensive teams. This limits us to an offensive style that will allow us maintain offensive pressure. (Which isn't a problem for the team, just one for me as I'm a big fan of Stall.) This offensive pressure will also need to be fast as even powerful bulky offensive threats risk a OHKO from Latios. (We could try to fit an unusual Pursuit trapper like Honchkrow, Bisharp, Scarf Scizor/Metagross, or Snorlax but this isn't Research Week so...) As much as I don't like it, Standard Offense or Hyper Offense appear to be our best choices with Dragonceus functioning as an offensive Stall breaker. Assuming everybody agrees on this, which support would we like to use in our selected team type. Will we make a hazards HO, screens offense, etc.?
  25. jackm

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    Well, as much as I prefer defense, I think our best option for thisteam is Hazard Stacking Offense. (mainly Spikes+SR) Here's why:


    • Dragonceus greatly enjoys hazards when sweeping. After Stealth Rock+Spikes, +1 Judgement KOs Offensive Dialga, Giratina-O, and Groudon, three potentially problematic threats for a weatherless team.
    • Because it's the fastest dragon, Dragonceus ends up forcing a lot of switches.
    • As our weatherless team is, well, weatherless, we are going to end up losing out on a lot of otherwise useful firepower. By wearing down the opponent with hazards, this issue can be mitigated.
    Unfortunately, this pretty much forces us to run either Giratina-O or Sableye (no Arceus-Ghost ;_;) so we're limiting our options a little bit. Overall though, stacking seems like the way to go.

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