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Ubers CCAT 3 - Skies are Clear

Discussion in 'BW Ubers' started by jackm, Feb 12, 2013.

?

What Pokemon should we base our team around?

Poll closed Feb 17, 2013.
  1. Dual Screens Arceus

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. Ludicolo

    6.7%
  3. Power Herb Kyurem-B

    8.3%
  4. Substitute Darkai

    1.7%
  5. Smash recipient Dialga

    18.3%
  6. CM Arceus-Dragon

    16.7%
  7. SubSeed Shaymin-S

    6.7%
  8. SD Arceus-Ground

    5.0%
  9. LO Kyurem-B

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  10. CM Lugia

    5.0%
  11. Latios

    3.3%
  12. BU Dialga

    10.0%
  13. CM Arceus-Fighting

    3.3%
  14. Scarf Rayquaza

    1.7%
  15. Scarf Salamence

    5.0%
  16. SubCM Giratina-O

    8.3%
  1. blitzlefan

    blitzlefan I remember it all too well...
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    However, the threats you mentioned before, Mewtwo, EK Arceus, and Lati@s can all be somewhat checked with Giratina-O, so it seems like a good match with spike-stacking offense. Also, it can phaze with Dragon Tail and neuter physically oriented sweepers with Will-o-Wisp, so it could work out okay.

    @jackm: I don't know if it makes Giratina-O a check per say, but,
    252+ Atk Griseous Orb Giratina-O Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Latias: 180-212 (49.45 - 58.24%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, and
    252+ Atk Griseous Orb Giratina-O Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Latias: 534-630 (146.7 - 173.07%) -- guaranteed OHKO,
    so even full-health Latias must be cautious before switching into Giratina-O, and Giratina-O can revenge kill weakened Lati@s (below 50%) so Arceus-Dragon can sweep later.

    Edit: all right, I'm sorry. terminology mix-up ugh..........
  2. jackm

    jackm

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    How the crap does Giratina-O check Lati@s?

    [EDIT] blitzlefan, that's a revenge killer; it's like saying that Scarf Terrakion checks LO Deoxys-A because it can KO with Stone Edge.
  3. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo lol, nice
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    Well, are far as SR + Spikes setting is concerned, I think a lead double hazard setter is our best bet. A defensive approach to hazard setting would only give our opponent opportunities to bring in a powerful sweeper/wall breaker. I'm thinking the best general team structure would be:

    Hazard Lead: Our options for this slot would be Deoxys-S, Custap Skarmory, Custap Forretress. Deoxys is the typical hazard lead that is pretty consistent due to his massive speed. On the other hand, he also suffers from priority attackers and has to play guessing games when it comes to setup sweepers. Skarmory would be a solution to this as Sturdy + Whirlwind allows it too blindly throw SR up the first turn. He also has the option to use Tailwind which can be an interesting support move. The near absence of Volt-Turn and his resists to common priority attackers means he is quite consistent but but he remains vulnerable to Taunt. Custap Forretress doesn't really resolve the issues of the former but it brings some very worthwhile advantages. It can beat the Deoxys-S leads that Skarmory loses to (and our own Deo-S would have a tricky time beating depending on the set) thanks to its Gyro Ball and Rapid Spin. Seeing as the only setup sweeper (that can boost speed) in the tier is Rayquaza (and some Latios) Forretress doesn't have to worry too much about being setup fodder. Forretress also has access to Toxic Spikes which is a major boon. Rapid Spin can also be useful support mid-late game by saving Forretress with just enough HP that switching into hazards latter on will allow it to spin. (not a very consistent so don't rely on it, just a notable plus)

    We should decide on the hazard lead for our last pick as deciding on the most important will be dependent on the core it will be supporting as well as what threats can easily be revenge killed.

    Spin Blocker: Since we will be using multiple hazards having a spin blocker is a must. For offensive teams our two options are Giratina-O and Sableye. Giratina-O is sturdy and reliable choice with plenty of viable sets at our disposal. Sableye has some key advantages due its access to Prankster Taunt + WoW that allows it to shut down Forretress (which sets up Spikes all over Tina) as well as crippling the many offensive cleaners that may threaten our team. (Excadrill, Kabutops, Rayquaza)

    This should be chosen as the choice is fairly straight forward once we know who the main players are.

    Revenge Killer: This basically means a Choice Scarf user. The three best Choice Scarf users in Ubers are currently Genesect, Terrakion, and Palkia. However, Rayquaza deserves a notable mention as none of these three can deal with Swift Swimmers while Ray can thanks to Air Lock.

    This should be chosen close near the end, right before we pick our hazard setter as that will allow us to figure out what the team is in most need of checking.

    Dragonceus: If you don't have this you are doing it wrong.

    Offensive Core: This is pretty much open to your personal preferences. However, Rayquaza is again a member that should receive heavy consideration as the SD set can help a great deal in dealing with a majority of the weather sweepers. (thus giving us the freedom to select from the three, generally better, Choice Scarf users latter on) A mixed set (like DD or Tailwind) is also a solid choice as we can always rely on Giratina-O to deal with Blaziken if we prefer.

    Our core is the first thing we should decide upon (after agreeing on the desired team structure) as it will set foundation that the rest of the team will be built upon.
  4. asterat

    asterat

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    I think we definitely do need a hazard setter. But I think Cm arceus dragon functions more as a tank than a poke in an offensive team. Maybe a more defensive approach like tentacruel or defensive forretress would do the job. Excadrill would probably work best though, handling scarf zekroms and such. Fire and water types are sort of dealt with by arceus dragon, although loosely.

    In terms of an offensive core, terrakion can mess up steel types and be a revenge killer. Arceus dragon offers protection for fire types from water moves, while they get rid of steel types.
  5. jackm

    jackm

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    Is everyone in agreement that we're going to be running an middle ground (more sweepy than bulky offense, bulkier than HO) offensive team? If not, speak now or forever hold your peace.

    Anyways, assuming we run offense, we're going to need a core. Because of Dragonceus' late-game sweeperish tendencies, I'm almost inclined to suggest that we run a separate offensive core to break down the opponent before Arceus attempts a sweep. Now, given that the list of semi-common ubers that get in the way of a CM Dragonceus sweep if arceus doesn't have support goes as follows:

    Chansey
    Blissey
    Most bulky Steels:
    Show Hide


    • Jirachi
    • Ferrothorn
    • Arceus-Steel
    • Excadrill
    • Forretress
    • Skarmory
    Sdef Arceus
    Ho-Oh
    Lugia
    Sdef Kyogre

    Scarfed physical Dragons:
    Show Hide


    • Kyurem-Blolbutstill
    • Zekrom
    • Rayquaza
    • Garchomp
    Our support needs to exhibit the following qualities in terms of eliminating roadblocks:

    • Powerful Steel-killing capabilities
    • Enough firepower to kill Chansey, Sdef Kyogre, Sdef Arceus, and Lugia
    • Hazard-laying capabilities
    • The ability to take on scarfed Outrages and retaliate
    For the first two slots, I think that Mixed Rayquaza is our best bet. Between Fire Blast and Earthquake killing Steels will be a breeze, and you have more than enough power to take on Chansey, Kyogre, and Arceus. Lugia will be tricky, but I'm pretty sure that Ray can beat it with Outrage. Not sure about the other ones, but this is the bare minimum of what we need from support if Dragonceus is going to pull off a sweep.




  6. Hack He Must

    Hack He Must
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    I'd like to point out that Chansey and Blissey are nothing more than set-fodder for Arceus-Dragon, and that they in no way get in the way of a sweep.
  7. Haruno

    Haruno

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    You forget that we absolutely must have a ekiller/kyogre counter alongside dragceus. Which makes up half our team. If we really must run suicide lead and giratina we'll lack a counter to scarfed kyurems/zekrom/reshirams. Also omastar seems to be a major threat so our revenge killer of choice will probably be rayquaza.
  8. jackm

    jackm

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    The brainfarts, they never end.
    Giratina-O and Sableye can both function as Extemekiller counters, albiet Gira is more of a check. Add a Kyogre check, which could potentially serve as a revenge killer (Palkia) or part of an offensive core (Lati@s) and suddenly we're back in action.
  9. Haruno

    Haruno

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    Too lazy to look for furai's post on him explaining why risking a game on will o wisp makes a team average at best.
  10. lousy918

    lousy918

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    Under hazard setters, there is Skarmory and Forry, both of which can check Ekiller, although Forry needs Toxic + Pain Split.
  11. Bossness

    Bossness

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    "The primary method by which an excellent Übers team deals with Extreme Killer Arceus must not be through trying to burn it with the move Will-O-Wisp. Let's say there is a team like mine which has Espeon, Multiscale Lugia with Toxic and Whirlwind, as well as a physically defensive Groudon with Dragon Tail, but one of its other members, say an Arceus-Ghost, just so happens to know Will-O-Wisp. Trying to burn an Arceus-Normal with that Arceus-Ghost as a last-ditch effort to stop it from sweeping after one's Lugia and Groudon have been taken out would be fine. However, a team that relies entirely on that Arceus-Ghost's Will-O-Wisp in order to stop Arceus-Normal... in other words, a team which would be swept by an Arceus-Normal if Arceus-Ghost fails to burn it before getting taken out by it, cannot possibly be an excellent Übers team, because a team whose sole answer to Extreme Killer Arceus is a Will-O-Wisp-reliant Pokémon like Arceus-Ghost, Arceus-Steel, Arceus-Rock, and physically-defensive Giratina is, by my judgment, a team that does not have a counter or check to Arceus-Normal, and therefore automatically fails, being an average team at best, since Extreme Killer Arceus is by far the best Pokémon and most dangerous sweeper in the game. You may be able to win many battles by shutting down the opponent's Extreme Killer Arceus with Will-O-Wisp, while ocassionally having to use the move twice against one that holds a Lum Berry, but climbing the ladder and reaching #1 involves winning not just more than half the time, but doing so consistently. If you just rely on Will-O-Wisp against Arceus-Normal, you'll sooner or later find a battle in which your Will-O-Wisp user gets taken out by the opponent's Extreme Killer Arceus before you manage to burn it, and then get swept, and higher up on the ladder, this will result in you losing a number of points which would require ten or more battles to make up for... assuming Will-O-Wisp doesn't miss again within those ten battles and resulting in you falling even lower on the ladder. Also keep in mind that the probability of two Will-O-Wisps hitting in a row, which is necessary to burn a Lum Berry Arceus, is only 56%. This is one of the primary reasons why I do not consider many, if not the majority of Übers teams (including many of which created by myself in the past), to be truly excellent teams."

    ^Hack He Must posted this, not Furai. Basically, if Will-O-Wisp misses,(which has a chance to miss higher than that of a 100% accurate attack missing Sand Veil Garchomp and equal to that of a full paralysis) Arceus or Excadrill or Kabutops can sweep a team.

    My thoughts on the CCAT: From what I have read, it seems that the likely picks are as follows: Rayquaza, Giratina-O, Palkia etc. This is not a good idea since this is stacking Dragon weaknesses. Since an offensive team will be used, there will be no room for a Bulky Steel Type as it kills the momentum. The only possibly viable steel type is Genesect which is frail and can switch into Dragon attacks only once.

    I do not like Rayquaza. It is frail, SR weak, slow, and easily revenge killed. It is not a counter to weather sweepers, it is only a check. Since this team is weatherless, it will be weak to Kingdra(the team is going to stack Dragon types and Genesect can't switch into it). I do not understand what Rayquaza does that Latios does not do.

    I think Deoxys-S should be the lead used for the CCAT as it is the most consistent lead and it does not have to play a mindgame with set-up sweepers. Back in DW Ubers, I used a Custap Berry Forretress lead which was very inconsistent. Why? Because it was very common and most people figured out how to beat it - attack first to break Sturdy and then KO it. Instead of trying to use Rapid Spin, which is unreliable, the CCAT could just include Pokemon that can kill hazard setters quickly. Example: Latios.

    I am going to nominate Substitute + Nasty Plot Darkrai again. Dark Void allows it to put one member of a defensive core to sleep, enabling the rest of the team to find an opening.

    [​IMG]
    Artemis (Darkrai) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Bad Dreams
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Dark Void
    - Substitute
    - Dark Pulse
    - Nasty Plot

    A Darkrai moveset I first used in puregenius's The Requiem, and also currently use in another team I commonly battle with. Despite its lack of coverage moves, this Darkrai is an unbelievably dangerous offensive threat judging by my own experience from both using and facing it, as the combination of Substitute and Nasty Plot can very easily catch people off guard, since Darkrai rarely uses both of these moves at the same time. If one somehow manages to set up a Nasty Plot while having a Substitute up (which isn't too difficult with some intelligent application of Dark Void, Substitute, one's own prediction skills, as well as the utilization of people's tendency to not expect Darkrai to have both Nasty Plot and Substitute simultaneously), one can pretty much expect Artemis to be able to at least devastate a large portion of the opponent's team before going down (and very likely, the opponent may even need to sacrifice a Choice Scarf-holding Pokémon or a user of a priority move such as their Extreme Killer Arceus in the process of breaking Artemis's Substitute, and being able to eliminate such Pokémon in the opponent's team pretty much for free is always helpful), thanks to its high Speed and incredible power after just a single Nasty Plot. Against some teams, it can even get a free Substitute on the turn in which the opponent switches to their Espeon or Xatu expecting a Dark Void.
  12. gookie

    gookie Adominnustrata
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    if you're going for hazard stacking offense giratina-o is by far and away the best ghost candidate because no arceus ghost duh and giratina-a's non-defensive sets are gimmicky at best (no shrang idc what you say about chesto rest i've tried it; it doesn't work a lot of the time).

    going weatherless + dragceus limits ekiller checks to gira-o + another soft check like terrakion or a physically defensive forretress which would probably kill momentum too much.

    although i was pumping giratina-o earlier sableye is also a viable choice as it actually checks ekiller better than gira-o (although, as highlighted earlier WoW missing is a pain, but after hazard damage +2 foul play does an assload of damage).

    kingdra, as other people have identified, is a huge threat, being pretty much the only weather sweeper asides from shell smash omastar that cannot be checked by giratina-o. grass arceus, it's best check, is unavabile, i would actually strongly consider rayquaza + sableye because of this.

    that leaves less flexibility for choice scarf users, as one would probably want terrakion at this point to have another check for ekiller. this leaves an ogre check (deo-s/ray/sableye/drag arc/scarf terrak) and a latias is probably your best bet because opposing latias are a pain and going palkia just worsens that. (fuk 3 dragons -_- drag arc is not an ideal candidate for weatherless.....)

    just some of my thoughts, take them as you will.
  13. Hack He Must

    Hack He Must
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    More thoughts.

    Entry hazards lead= Deoxys-S. By far the best way to go here, since it wil usually get up spikes+SR.

    Giratina-O functions as a one time E-killer phazers, and is better at checking E-killer than Sableye (look at the post on why Will o Wisp can never qualify as a true check to it). Giratina-O is also good synergy wise, it provides a check (revenge-killer in this case) to Mewtwo, Lati@s, Genesect, among others.

    What we could to to take pressure of Giratina-O when it comes to checking E-killer is by using scarf Terrakion, who will together with entry hazards and D tail chip damage be very consistent at even revenging the most bulky ones, and the entry hazards support and removal of Ghost types can provide a nice Close Combat clean-up against many teams.

    I agree with Poppy that Dragoceus isn't exactly a great candidate for weatherless (I merely posted without understanding that the team should be weatherless, much like many people).
  14. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo lol, nice
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    Sableye doesn't rely on a single WoW to cripple Ekiller. It'll often have two chances to use WoW (although a good portion of the time it will die right after the second) and Foul Play does 62-73% to 240 HP EKiller (Superimp's spread). It is one of the best (if not THE best) general answers to every EKiller set.

    Anyways, there are also other ways of dealing with double speed weather abusers. Choice Scarf Mewtwo outspeeds even Adament Excadrill while Latias can cut off a +2 Omastar sweep. Priority attacks like Tina's Shadow Sneak, Sableye's WoW, Thundurus's TWave and Bisharp's Sucker Punch can also help check these threats. We can also use Ray as a Choice Scarf mon (I don't think triples dragon matters when you are factoring in a RK mon) or we can use Defensive Dialga to check all non-Specs Kyogre variants and use offensive pressure to deal with the sluggish SpecsOgre.

    These are just some ideas I found, you guys can probably think of some others, (Maybe punish a Kyogre kill by setting up our Mixed DD/SD Rayquaza?) the Ubers tier is quite diverse.

    @Haruno: This is just a basic team building skeleton. Afterwards you fill it in with Pokemon that you feel properly accomplish that role while dealing with various threats.

    Edit: Completely unrelated, but I just realized Poppy is a fraud. Is it that way with everybody who got the TC badge in Ubers suspect?
  15. jackm

    jackm

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    Uggh guys why did we choose Dragonceus this is going to be difficult

    Anyways, Sableye cannot be discredited as an Extremekiller answer. Even with SR up, Sableye can switch into an Earthquake/Swords Dance, usually avoid the 2HKO and use Will-O-Wisp; barring crits, you have a ~87% chance of burning it. That and the whole Foul Play thing, which can be nice to surprise them and can lead to a revenge kill being extremely easy. While it isn't perfect, it will be good enough if we need it.

    Possibly viable? CS Jirachi, Excadrill, Bisharp, Magnezone, hell even Heatran could work, although it would be tricky without weather control.

    It's pretty much unanimous that we're going to to run Deoxys-S as our hazard setter, so let's move the discussion away from that.

    What we're finding is that weather->speed abusers are going to be quite tricky to handle. Literally our only countermeasure is Air Lock (you know, unless we run Gastro Acid or Skill Swap or something like that) which unfortunately limits us quite a bit. If this team is going to be a success, we're going to need to either run Ray or something ridiculously fast like CS Deoxys-S or crazy powerful priority.
  16. Hack He Must

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    I have discussed a bit with Melee Mewtwo and we kinda came up with something like Dragceus/Specs Dialga, Scarf Terrakion, Deoxys-S and Giratina-O/Sableye.

    Dialga can check Kingdra, Scarf Terrakion is faster than Omastar and Giratina-O is a counter to Excadrill, which means our weather sweeper problem is solved. Idk, it's gonna be pretty hard this...
  17. Haruno

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    Leaving us open to lati@s, subplot darkrai, blaze/exca/omastar once gira-o is down (not that unlikely since I assume you're talking about adamant 160atk/252def/88spd variant with no access to healing whatsoever). Sableye isn't usable since it gives us a crippling weakness to blaze. CM/SD ghostceus is also incredibly hard to check on a team like this.
  18. Hack He Must

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    Latios= Problem. Find a good offensive check that isn't Genesect then. Scarf Terrak runs sleep talk in my world, it is also unlikely that Omastar will get a smash, meaning Terrakion is faster, Exca/Omastar/Blaziken won't be used on the same team meaning Giratina-O handles that fine+Shadow Sneak revenge 2HKOes Lati@s. For SD Ghostceus, I have no idea atm, and CM is also hard. Darkrai handles both if it is fresh.
  19. Sweep

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    Dialga @ Leftovers
    Trait: Pressure
    236 HP, 252 Special Attack, 20 Speed
    Nature: Modest

    -Draco Meteor
    -Fire Blast
    -Stealth Rock
    -Thunder

    This is an offensive-minded Dialga that can beat stuff like Latios one-on-one. Its excellent typing allows it to take neutral damage from other dragons and hit them back with an extremely powerful Draco Meteor stemming from 438 Special Attack. It is also neutral to Ice type attacks and can hit rare Ice-types (Arceus-Ice, Froslass) that bother Dragonceus very hard with Fire Blast. Dialga can also survive a Life Orb Low Kick (which does 73% - 86%) from Kabutops and KO back with Thunder. If Dialga has prior damage, or if Kabutops is running Choice Band, this becomes unfeasible. Because of its ability to beat Kingdra, Omastar, and hopefully Kabutops, Dialga would be a good choice for a Weatherless team. Note that Dialga cannot switch into any of these threats, nor can it deal with a boosted Omastar or Kabutops though I doubt either will get a chance to set up.

    Fire Blast roasts Ferrothorn, Scizor, Arceus-Grass, Arceus-Steel (outside of rain), and Shaymin-S. Draco Meteor hits everything that doesn't resist it hard. Stealth Rock is mandatory on any competitive team. Thunder is the one move on this team that may appear to be odd, but if the opponent provides rain, this will hit Kyogre, SD Waterceus, and weather sweepers outside of Ludiculo very hard. It can also be used to 2HKO Ho-Oh in desperation, though Thunder's low accuracy makes Dialga a last resort check to the turkey.

    The EV's are more offensive than typical Stealth Rock Dialga, but Dialga's job after getting rocks up is to break stuff with its enormous base 438 Special Attack and quality coverage, not stall. 236 Health EV's make this hard to take down, even for mons like Choice Scarf Terrakion so long Dialga is at full health. The 20 speed EV's allow it to speed creep stuff like support Ho-Oh, support Dialga, support Groudon, and Giratina.

    Because it can reliably set up SR, beat most weather sweepers (apart from Focus Blast Ludiculo), and beat Latios one on one, I feel that Dialga would make a strong member for this team.
  20. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo lol, nice
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    I'm not sure if Anik is going to post his idea or not but he did bring up Choice Scarf Ditto as a great check to all those weather abusers. I''m thinking a physically based core is the best one as we are probably going to have trouble with other CM mons. (LO Terrak is a good ekiller check and can take out a lot after a boost etc.)
  21. Donkey

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    Ah, the great Substitute mono attacking Arceus-Dragon...who wouldn't want to build a team around a pokemon that nothing to offer besides terrible synergy? Let me explain why you shouldn't want to build around this pokemon.

    Yes, Arceus-Dragon has a 100 base attack STAB Dragon Judgment, but it is also 2x weak to to dragon attacks. This means that Arceus-Dragon has literally no advantage over Arceus-Dark at all. First off, it cannot beat the common pokemon that beat Arceus-Dark (Arceus-Steel, Excadrill, Skarmory, Sp Def Kyogre, Ho-Oh) besides Dialga, which is better handled by Arceus-Fighting and Arceus-Ground anyways, since Fight and Ground are not weak to Dragon. So far, I see no reason to use Arceus-Dragon over Arceus-Dark.

    To reiterate: Arceus-Dragon is 2x weak to to dragon attacks. This severely limits Arceus-Dragon's sweeping power. Unlike Arceus-Dark, you cannot switch in on and beat a +1 Latias or Latios, since they will cripple you with Dragon Pulse or Draco Meteor while you fail to break their bulk. Further, to beat Arceus-Dragon, all you need to do is break the sub and send out a powerful scarfed dragon (Garchomp, Salamence, Zekrom, Kyurem-W or B). Dragon scarfers are common in ubers, especially Zekrom. This is one of the reasons why Arceus-Dark is such a devastatingly durable sweeper. Arceus-Dark can win 1 on 1 against a Latias or Latios, even if they started boosting earlier, and Arceus-Dark also cannot be easily revenged by a scarf Dragon. The only common scarfer that consistently beats Arceus-Dark is Terrakion. This being said, I see even less of a reason to use Arceus-Dragon over Arceus-Dark.

    Now, I am sure you are thinking, "Arceus-Dragon resists water so that makes up for it's dragon weakness". Sure, but that doesn't help it get past or switch into Scald Roar Kyogre, which is one of the main reasons why I would use an Arceus form that resists water over Arceus-Dark. If you switch into Kyogre with Arceus-Dragon, you risk a burn just to be phased out later. Also, yes, you can take Surfs all day, but you can't take or set up on Ice Beams, especially with hazards up. Palkia can also still demolish you with Spacial Rend, even though Hydro Pump won't do much damage. Most Palkias are not scarfed, so one misprediction could mean the end for Arceus-Dragon if you rely too heavily on his water resist. The point I am trying to make here is that if you run Arceus-Dragon, you are still forced to run dedicated Kyogre and Palkia checks much like you have to when using Arceus-Dark. Hence, there is no reason to Arceus-Dragon instead of Arceus-Dark.

    I know Arceus-Dragon has already been chosen for this CCAT, but I just want to make sure you know what you are getting into and give you some things to think about when choosing other pokemon on the team. In the OP, it says that "The point of CCAT is to create a team that is both competitive and innovative, bringing something rather fresh into the metagame that is not used much." It appears that the pick of Arceus-Dragon already set this CCAT to a bad start. Arceus-Dragon is hardly competitive unless you are playing against ladder scrubs and I wouldn't even begin to describe Arceus-Dragon as innovative; as I have proved in this post it plays the exact same role as Arceus-Dark but with more limitations.

    Good luck, rant concluded
  22. jackm

    jackm

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2011
    Messages:
    340
    Well, here's the thing: unless there's overwhelming support for a redo vote, we're stuck with Dragonceus. It's not like we all agreed that it would be the best thing; I didn't vote for it, hell it barely got a fifth of the legitimate vote. But we have to use it according to protocol unless the following happens:

    Show Hide
    If a redo of the vote is in the community's best interest, there must be overwhelming (at my discretion) support to do so. If an irrefutable argument that proves that there is no need for said redo, there will be no redo.


    Be aware that this is not an option that I will throw around freely; however, this situation appears to demand it.

    Resume.
  23. lousy918

    lousy918

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2012
    Messages:
    325
    Agreed^^ although you left out T-tar and Genesect but heck

    yeah *votes for a redo*

    Despite most, if not all, of the posters going for Deoxys-S, I still feel we should give Skarmory a chance. Since we (apparently) have most Kyogre covered, we can use Skarmory to counter EKiller, plus Groudon without Fire moves and all Tyranitar, allowing Spikestacking.

    Another thing are things that wall Dragceus. Lugia is one of them, being able to Whirlwind you out with ease. Skarmory, however, can generally set up Spikes on Lugia, since they don't carry attacks generally bar Ice Beam, which only does around 22%. Even better, if you opt for Taunt, you can stop SubRoost Status Shuffler cold. Although Deoxys-S has Taunt too, it, as a suicide lead, will usually be dead by that point.

    Yet another advantage of using Skarmory is walling Outrage. Physical Scarfed Dragons, such as Zekrom and Garchomp, will be forced to predict correctly, and Garchomp can't anything even with prediction. If Zekrom were to Bolt Strike the mispredicted Skarmory, they risk getting swept by Dragceus, since their only revenge killer just died. Skarmory can set up hazards to further assist Dragceus' sweep, weakening its checks, the best example being Kyogre.

    Another point I want to bring up is weather sweepers, or more specifically, Excadrill. Skarmory walls it to no end, and phazes it out. Granted, this allows him to spin, but he'll generally take Life Orb damage, so if you keep Spiking and he (stupidly) keeps spinning, and die eventually. With Rocky Helmet (refer to my RMT: www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3479183), his fainting rate will be sped up. If he dies to Life Orb or Rocky Helmet (if applicable), iirc hazards don't disappear. However, despite this, I still feel we should run a spinblocker.

    EDIT: NINJA'D
  24. Bossness

    Bossness

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2011
    Messages:
    435
    I spoke with Hack He Must about Arceus-Dragon. He told me that when he posted the set, he did not know that the team would be weatherless; he was planning on using it on either Rain or Sun. I am agreeing with Donkey here - Arceus-Dragon is terrible. I used a team of Deoxys-S, Ditto and 4 Dragons. In this team, Arceus-Dragon was the most useless member. Maybe we should redo our vote and pick the Substitute+Nasty Plot Darkrai that I nominated.
  25. Faint

    Faint Valar morghulis
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2007
    Messages:
    1,676
    First off let me start of by saying there are some god awful mons listed. Ludicolo? Power Herb KB? CM Lugia? Scarf Rayquaza? All of these mons require TREMENDOUS team support (nor should ever be used), and yes I understand that's what this thread is about. I also understand that we are expected to use a "gimmick" mon. But then comes the question of Smash Pass Dialga. Why is it even listed? Did we not mention that all votes towards it will not count?

    If so, why are users such as 'Hack We Must' voting for it? You do realize you can see the results of the poll by clicking on the number, right? So after he realized CM Arceus-Dragon was not a good candidate he voted Dialga?

    Also, for the record, if I was still able to vote my choice would be BU Dialga or Scarf Salamence.

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