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Ubers CCAT 3 - Skies are Clear

Discussion in 'BW Ubers' started by jackm, Feb 12, 2013.

?

What Pokemon should we base our team around?

Poll closed Feb 17, 2013.
  1. Dual Screens Arceus

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. Ludicolo

    6.7%
  3. Power Herb Kyurem-B

    8.3%
  4. Substitute Darkai

    1.7%
  5. Smash recipient Dialga

    18.3%
  6. CM Arceus-Dragon

    16.7%
  7. SubSeed Shaymin-S

    6.7%
  8. SD Arceus-Ground

    5.0%
  9. LO Kyurem-B

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  10. CM Lugia

    5.0%
  11. Latios

    3.3%
  12. BU Dialga

    10.0%
  13. CM Arceus-Fighting

    3.3%
  14. Scarf Rayquaza

    1.7%
  15. Scarf Salamence

    5.0%
  16. SubCM Giratina-O

    8.3%
  1. jackm

    jackm

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2011
    Messages:
    376
    Approved by Poppy
    [​IMG]
    apology for the giant picture
    [​IMG]Ubers Community Create a Team 3: Third Time's The Charm[​IMG]
    Lately, the Ubers forum has been pretty quiet. This is certainly unfortunate, considering all of the interesting quirks that the tier has to offer. In an attempt to stimulate activity in this forum, we're going to try the CCAT project again; for those of you who don't know what a "CCAT" project is, I say unto you in the words of Furai:

    The point of CCAT is to create a team that is both competitive and innovative, bringing something rather fresh into the metagame that is not used much.

    This goal is exactly what is necessary if the activity that the Ubers forum used to enjoy is to return; we need to innovate and create something (be it entirely new or simply a twist on a time-tested strategy) that could potentially revolutionize the Ubers tier.

    Nowadays (as always, but bear with me) almost 4 out of every 5 Uber teams run weather of some sort, which is understandable. Especially in Ubers, the advantages of weather abuse are often so extravagant that a weatherless version of the same team is inferior; that is to say, the team could be enjoy greater success by running a weather summoner. After all, it's not as if running weather comes with large penalties. Kyogre and Groudon are both terrific Pokemon that provide large amounts of utility outside of their summoning abilities. Neither Tyranitar nor Hippowdon are far behind. Only Abomasnow tends to be a liability, but there's a reason that Hail isn't used much in Ubers.

    So, the question that I would like for us to answer with this CCAT is: can we build a team that does not benefit from being adapted to a weather?
    Obviously, this entails that For this CCAT, all weather summoning abilities and moves are banned.

    Also, I'd like to suggest that we not build a Full Stall team due to stall's inherently smaller tendency to necessitate a weather.

    Will we see a rise in our need for hazards to add firepower to our non-weather-boosted attackers? Will we highlight the ability of a previously overlooked threat? Will we simply attempt to push through our opponent with brute force? Only time will tell.

    Anyways, let's get started. Step 1:

    We are going to start by picking which Pokemon (and set) we are going to be basing the team around. This does NOT mean the Pokemon has to be the late game sweeper, it means the team will be built around that Pokemon, whatever role it plays. This thread is for nominating Pokemon to be added to a poll (Pokemon that you think can thrive without weather control). After a couple of days (probably around one-two days, until enough Pokemon are in the poll (around 10), I will select which Pokemon are going to be in the poll that will be posted after we decide on a list of Pokemon. This means you have to convince me, and others, that your Pokemon is worth being put in the vote.

    Please, for the love of God, test before you submit!

    For those of you who want to know how the whole process works, this is it:
    Show Hide
    Step 1: We are going to start by picking which Pokemon (and set) we are going to be basing the team around. This does NOT mean the Pokemon has to be the late game sweeper, it means the team will be built around that Pokemon, whatever role it plays. This thread is for nominating Pokemon to be added to a poll (Pokemon that you think can thrive without weather control). After a couple of days (probably around one-two days, until enough pokemon are in the poll (around 10), I will select which Pokemon are going to be in the poll that will be posted after we decide on a list of Pokemon. This means you have to convince me, and others, that your Pokemon is worth being put in the vote.

    Please, for the love of God, test before you submit!

    Step 2: We select what style of team we want to make. This will likely include something along the lines of Offense, Bulky Offense, Stall, Trick Room, and possibly more.

    Step 3: We select Pokemon that work well around our Pokemon and fit the team style and test it.

    Step 4: We finalize the team and write up a 5-star RMT!


    TEAM:

    [​IMG]

    Latios @ Soul Dew
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Draco Meteor
    - Grass Knot
    - HP Fire
    - Psyshock

    courtesy of Sweep

    [​IMG]
    Deoxys-Speed @ Focus Sash
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature
    - Stealth Rock
    - Fire Punch
    - Spikes
    - Taunt

    courtesy of Anikrahman1995

    [​IMG]

    Terrakion @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Justified
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    Nature: Jolly (+Spe, -SAtk)
    - Stone Edge
    - Close Combat
    - X-Scissor
    - Toxic

    courtesy of Lousy918

    [​IMG]

    Dialga @ Leftovers
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 HP / 48 SAtk / 200 SDef / 8 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Draco Meteor
    - Fire Blast
    - Roar
    - Thunder Wave

    courtesy of blitzlefan

    [​IMG]
    Darkrai @ Life Orb
    Trait: Bad Dreams
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SDef / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
    - Dark Void
    - Substitute
    - Nasty Plot
    - Dark Pulse

    courtesy of Jackm

    [​IMG]
    Arceus-Ghost @ Spooky Plate
    Trait: Multitype
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Calm Mind
    - Judgment
    - Focus Blast
    - Recover

    courtesy of Blitzlefan Our Teamstyle is Weatherless Offense.

    Let's get started!
  2. Haruno

    Haruno I choose you!
    is a Tiering Contributor

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    Jun 29, 2012
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    A weatherless team based around dual screens arceus perhaps? I've been using dual screens arceus with relative success on the ladder and it really has that surprise factor since it can easily set up screens since most of normal arceus' common switches will be unable to touch it.

    Arceus @ light clay
    252 hp, 96 def, 160SpD
    Careful Nature
    - Light Screen
    - Reflect
    - Perish Song
    - Recover
  3. calze6

    calze6

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2009
    Messages:
    552
    ludicolo ftw. Been using it and sweeping teams alllllllll day.
  4. scorpdestroyer

    scorpdestroyer is a pious radio
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

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    [​IMG] Kyurem-B @ Power Herb
    Trait: Turboblaze
    252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    -Outrage
    -Fusion Bolt
    -Roost / Dragon Claw
    -Freeze Shock

    This is a very underrated set capable of catching some of Kyurem-B's usual counters off-guard. It has a base 170 Attack stat which is amazing, even by Ubers standards. Because most of the walls in Ubers are specially based, physical offense is great and so is Kyurem-B.

    Outrage is obvious, a 120 STAB-boosted attack coming off a monster of a Pokemon is great. Usually Kyurem-B will spam this move since it dents all but the bulkiest of walls or Steel-types. Fusion Bolt is coverage and OHKOs the king of Ubers, Kyogre, after Stealth Rock. It 2HKOs Skarm which otherwise walls this set, as well as 2HKOing Ho-Oh and Lugia after Stealth Rock.

    The third moveslot is for Roost or Dragon Claw. I'd like some discussion regarding this. Roost provides longevity for Kyurem-B, meaning that it is able to wreck havoc multiple times a match. This is crucial since it has that stupid SR weakness. Dragon Claw is a reliable STAB if you dont want to lock yourself into Outrage and is a better move overall for finishing off weakened opponents.

    The last slot is reserved for Kyurem-B's most powerful yet overlooked move: Freeze Shock. Before you turn away, let me explain. It is a 140 Base-Power move, with STAB, AND a nice 30% chance to paralyze. Middle finger to fast foes. Also, you nearly OHKO Groudon and severely dent Ferrothorn coming in to sponge Outrage.
    So what? It takes a turn to charge up and is easily played around. Right? Wrong. With Power Herb, you are entitled to use this move once without charging. Yeah, okay. Maybe you're thinking, "but I only get the effect of this move once. What's the big deal?" Well, keep in mind that Freeze Shock is NOT a move that Kyurem-B is spamming. It's mainly a coverage move used to catch Groudon by surprise (ie. coverage). Also, the charge turn might be a blessing in disguise. During a charge turn of Freeze Shock (which by the way should only be used on a Super-Effective mon), you force switches. If hazards are up, this is residual damage.

    Alright. Maybe you're wondering what other benefits does this have over, say, Choice Band Kyurem-B. For one, you get to switch moves. This is a HUGE asset. Kyurem-B works best with great coverage. With the ability to switch moves, you no longer get walled by the opponent simply switching in. Given that Kyurem-B is weak to SR, it's best to minimize switching as much as possible. Secondly, you get to fake a choice set, allowing you to catch out threats by surprise. And lastly, unlike the mixed set, this Kyurem-B can go fully physical with the EVs since it no longer needs to rely on Ice Beam for coverage, meaning it hits harder on the physical side.



    Show Hide
    252+ Atk Kyurem-B Freeze Shock vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Lugia: 390-458 (93.75 - 110.09%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ Atk Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Lugia: 186-220 (44.71 - 52.88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ Atk Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Ho-Oh: 320-378 (77.1 - 91.08%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ Atk Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kyogre (ScarfOgre): 320-378 (93.56 - 110.52%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ Atk Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Kyogre (SpecsOgre): 320-378 (79.2 - 93.56%) -- 43.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ Atk Kyurem-B Freeze Shock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Groudon: 350-414 (86.63 - 102.47%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ Atk Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Water: 250-296 (56.3 - 66.66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ Atk Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 4+ Def Skarmory: 200-236 (59.88 - 70.65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock


    Note that I'm only doing calcs for coverage moves because Outrage dents everything that doesn't resist, bar Groudon, Ho-Oh and Lugia.

    This set is easily countered by Arceus-Steel and Ferrothorn (although Ferrothorn is hit hard by Freeze Shock). Lugia can Roost-stall Kyurem-B if it is running pressure instead of Multiscale. Good teammates include stuff that can take these things down, which mean Fighting- or Fire-types. Stealth Rock on the opponent's side of the field aids Kyurem-B's task in taking down troublesome foes, especially Ho-Oh and Lugia. Rapid Spin support is beneficial since Kyurem-B is vulnerable to all hazards, even though it won't switch half as much as the CB set. If not using Rapid Spin support, I found Roost to be the better option.
  5. Bossness

    Bossness

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2011
    Messages:
    440
    [​IMG]
    Artemis (Darkrai) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Bad Dreams
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Dark Void
    - Substitute
    - Dark Pulse
    - Nasty Plot

    A Darkrai moveset I first used in puregenius's The Requiem, and also currently use in another team I commonly battle with. Despite its lack of coverage moves, this Darkrai is an unbelievably dangerous offensive threat judging by my own experience from both using and facing it, as the combination of Substitute and Nasty Plot can very easily catch people off guard, since Darkrai rarely uses both of these moves at the same time. If one somehow manages to set up a Nasty Plot while having a Substitute up (which isn't too difficult with some intelligent application of Dark Void, Substitute, one's own prediction skills, as well as the utilization of people's tendency to not expect Darkrai to have both Nasty Plot and Substitute simultaneously), one can pretty much expect Artemis to be able to at least devastate a large portion of the opponent's team before going down (and very likely, the opponent may even need to sacrifice a Choice Scarf-holding Pokémon or a user of a priority move such as their Extreme Killer Arceus in the process of breaking Artemis's Substitute, and being able to eliminate such Pokémon in the opponent's team pretty much for free is always helpful), thanks to its high Speed and incredible power after just a single Nasty Plot. Against some teams, it can even get a free Substitute on the turn in which the opponent switches to their Espeon or Xatu expecting a Dark Void.
  6. Hack

    Hack I BELIEVE IN TRANSPARENCY IN DEMOCRATIC INSTITUTIONS
    is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

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    [​IMG]

    Arceus-Dragon @ Draco Plate
    Trait: Multitype
    EVs: 96 HP / 236 SAtk / 176 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Judgment
    - Calm Mind
    - Substitute
    - Recover

    My suggestion is a rather underrated stallbreaker that works great against HO teams as well. With the speed investment, it is the fastest Dragon-type in the game barring choice-scarf holders, and the special attack investment enables to KO most of its dragon brethren. The HP Evs lets it make 101 HP subs four times without recovering. Against stall, it can usually get up a substitute, for example against non-Gyro Ball Ferrothorn, Forretress, Tentacruel, Chansey etc. Against HO it can sometimes also nab a substitute, as the dragons common there might be forced out. And yes, the atk IV should be 0 obviously.

    Also it is unpredictable (actually many people have no clue what to expect from it) and very underused. Other advantages of using this poke is that it has some great defensive synergy as well, checking some variants of Kyogre and as mentioned all slower dragons while also breaking down common stallmons.

    I have myself used it with great success on the ladder, and although that isn't the best way to estimate skill, I really found it worthwhile and fun to use.

    Some common checks to the set are faster choice scarf wielding dragons, such as Zekrom. Early game, phazers that lack a weakness to its judgment are good check, such as Lugia or Dialga. Perish Song mons such as Grass or Rockceus can stop it in a last mon scenario. Another common way to negate the threat of Dragoceus is toxic spikes, so teammates dealing with those is a must.

    In short, the advantages are:

    Fastest dragon, functions as a check to all slower dragons.
    Breaks stall with the right conditions.
    Works against HO too as it is fast offensive.
    Auxiliary check to Kyogre.

    Some disadvantages might be:

    Spinning is hard to pull of, meaning we might have to use Tentacruel to absorb toxic spikes?
    Opportunity cost (although I don't see it as much of an issue).
  7. lousy918

    lousy918

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2012
    Messages:
    325
    [​IMG]
    Shaymin-S @ Leftovers
    Ability: Serene Grace
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
    - Substitute
    - Leech Seed
    - Seed Flare
    - Air Slash

    This Pokemon, with its elite speed stat, can stall with SubSeed strategy. it also has STAB seed flare, allowing it to beat all weather inducers when behind a substitute. when the opponent is leech seeded, shaymin-s can stall with a combination of sub and air slash (60% flinch rate). seed flare also has an 80% chance to sharply decrease the opponents sdef, allowing shaymin-s to 2HKO even bulky shit like Ho-oh. SShaymin-S doesn't really benefit from weather, while it doesn't enjoy taking SS damage, plus Swift Swimmers that outspeed it aren't welcome, and generally sun means more fire attacks, hitting shaymin-s for SE

    sorry in a bit of a hrury
  8. Enguarde

    Enguarde I only play ADV UU
    is a Battle Server Moderator

    Joined:
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    [​IMG]


    Arceus-Ground @ Earth Plate
    Trait: Multitype
    EVs: 4 Atk / 252 Spd / 252 HP
    Jolly Nature
    - Earthquake
    - Swords Dance
    - Recover
    - Stone Edge

    Arceus-ground is a pretty rare pokemon in Ubers, let alone the physical variant, and usually has no trouble setting up a Swords Dance due to its fantastic bulk, and ability to deal serious damage to opponents with STAB Earthquake and support from Stone Edge for the infamous Edgequake combo. It can provide an excellent Zekrom counter in replacement of Groudon as well as having longevity as a bulky ground type thanks to recover. And this abilty to retain its health and not have to rely on weak coverage moves as often is also what can set it apart from other Swords Dance Arceus variants, such as Arceus Normal or Arceus Water.

    [​IMG]

    Kyurem-Black @ Life Orb
    Trait: Teravolt
    EVs: 84 Atk / 208 SAtk / 216 Spd
    Lonely Nature
    - Fusion Bolt
    - Ice Beam
    - Outrage
    - Focus Blast

    Regardlass of the fact the Black Kyurem is running around OU, its still a major force to be reckoned with due to its sheer power and amazing wall breaking capabilities. This set has the potential to 2HKO essentially any Pokemon regardless of their stance in ubers and should not be taken lightly. It can function as a great way to smash through the opponents defences from the get go due to its ability to also end the lives of both of the most prominent weather starters without breaking a sweat, and then allow the rest of the team to get the job done. It also has great potential with tailwind support making it virtually impossible to check or even counter for those few turns it has doubled speed.
  9. BKC

    BKC
    is a Tutoris a Smogon IRC AOPis a Tiering Contributoris a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis Smogon Frontier's Castle Valetis a Past WCoP Winneris the Smogon Tour Season 16 Champion

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    [​IMG]

    Lugia @ Leftovers
    Trait: Multiscale
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Calm Mind
    - Roost
    - Aeroblast
    - Earth Power

    an underrated, more offensive take on lugia; with this set, it's no longer set-up bait for everything defensive. multiscale makes it incredibly hard to kill. earth power destroys dialga /heatran and puts nice dents into tyranitar/jirachi. it's obviously got its problems but it's a cool set that i think deserves more attention. give it a shot. :)
  10. Sweep

    Sweep the face of NU and RU stall
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderator
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    [​IMG]

    Latios @ Soul Dew
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 4 HP/252 SAtk/252 Speed
    Timid Nature
    0 attack IV's

    -Draco Meteor
    -Grass Knot
    -Hidden Power Fire
    -Psyshock

    Latios wrecks stall teams, comfortably beating mons like Blissey, Giratina forms, Arceus-Water, Skarmory, Ferrothorn (outside of rain), Tentacruel, and Forretress. Its excellent base 110 speed allows it to outrun threats like Lustrous Orb Palkia and KO with Draco Meteor, so it is not dead weight against hyper offense either. Its immunity to Spikes and Toxic spikes make it relatively easy to switch in throughout the battle, and because it has Soul Dew over Life Orb, it will not quickly kill itself like Mewtwo or Blaziken will.

    Though Latios carrying Thunder cleanly beat Lugia in rain, the Great Wall can stop Lugia otherwise unless rocks are up and it switches into a Draco Meteor. Scarfed dragons, Arceus-Ghost, Arceus-Steel and Arceus-Dragon will make Latios very sad. Finally, Latios is extremely weak to priority moves such as Extremespeed from Arceus and Shadow Sneak from Giratina-O. With that said, Latios is a ruthless killer that is worthy of having a team built around it.
  11. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo I am hungry
    is a Smogon IRC AOPis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Forum Moderator Alumnus

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    Aww, I had recently theorymon'd a weatherless full Stall team. You're right though that no weather gives it less wiggle room. I guess I can always nom Sableye. :P


    Nah, actually I want to nominate a set I used to use and love that doesn't care much about the changing weather.

    [​IMG]
    Dialga @ Leftovers
    Trait: Pressure
    Shiny: Yes
    EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SDef
    Careful Nature
    - Outrage
    - Bulk Up
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk

    Show Hide
    252+ Atk Life Orb Ho-Oh Sacred Fire vs. +1 252 HP / 4 Def Dialga in sun: 199-235 (49.25 - 58.16%) -- 99.61% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    252+ Atk Life Orb Ho-Oh Sacred Fire vs. +2 252 HP / 4 Def Dialga in sun: 149-177 (36.88 - 43.81%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

    252+ SpA Kyogre Water Spout vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dialga in rain: 162-191 (40.09 - 47.27%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

    252+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dialga: 188-224 (46.53 - 55.44%) -- 76.56% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    252 SpA Choice Specs Palkia Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dialga in rain: 176-207 (43.56 - 51.23%) -- 10.16% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    4 Atk Groudon Earthquake vs. +1 252 HP / 4 Def Dialga: 176-210 (43.56 - 51.98%) -- 12.89% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock


    Dialga has an amazing defensive typing with the typically powerful cover legend stat spread to complement it. MonoDiagla maximizes on this combination by abusing his relative lack of common weaknesses and multitude of resistances to set up multiple boosts. These boosts when combined with its raw stats make it a difficult force to stop, especially with that Steel typing protecting it from the deathly Toxic passive damage. The Dragon STAB is the icing on the cake as it has powerful neutral coverage and Outrage's locking side effect is ignored when used by Sleep Talk giving Dialga a strong punch behind those titanic defenses. All these attributes allow it function well regardless of the weather as even the mighty LO Ho-Oh becomes setup fodder if it attempts to switch-in along with the terrible Groudon. Under Rain, Dialga's water/electric resists and fully invested special defense goes a long way in dealing with many common storm forces. MonoDialga implies a semi-stall to balanced team type as its poor speed and lack of initial punch makes it a poor choice on more heavily offensively minded teams.


    Thanks for getting CCAT another try in Ubers, jackm. :)
  12. jackm

    jackm

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    Wow, what an interesting load of submissions! Everyone please remember that when Underrated is stated, it doesn't mean gimmicky; our central Pokemon should ideally be something that is potent in its role and not outclassed, but not used often. No offense, but Dual Screens Arceus? Seems pretty outclassed, and the opportunity cost of using that is insane.

    Anyways, on a more technical note, submissions will be closed at Midnight, 2/14/2013 GMT. If you have something to submit, do it by then. Polls will open as soon as possible after submissions close.
  13. Haruno

    Haruno I choose you!
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    Dual Screens arceus is outclassed by what exactly? Bronzong? Lati@s? Both of those aren't as sturdy as arceus are. Not to mention that when you send out arceus normal you'll see only a select few mons switch in on it(gira, ghost/fight/steelceus, skarmory) all of which fail to stop you from setting up screens. It is literally impossible for an opponent to predict dual screens simply because arceus normal equals ekiller as far as the community are concerned.

    As far as opportunity cost is concerned, perish song helps fix that since no one would dare try and set up hazards/sweepers when ekiller is staring them in the face and it forces your opponent to switch unless they don't mind losing a mon. If perish song isn't your cup of tea then just use roar instead if it suits your fancy. Though I heard stallceus (ghost) is relatively well used so what makes it better than arceus normal? Unless you mean to tell me that ekiller is the only viable normal arceus set which would be laughable statement. That and taking half damage for 8 turns is insane. Though if you have something to counter argue with I'd be happy to hear it.
  14. jackm

    jackm

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    Ok, maybe outclassed is the wrong word. What I meant to say was that if you need a dual screens user, you're probably better off using something else. Granted, the surprise factor is definitely useful, but as soon as you set up a screen you're massive spikes bait. You really only get one surprising shot at dual screens, and as far as I'm concerned I'd prefer to use Deoxys-S as a screener and have the option of using an Arceus forme for a different purpose. I fully acknowledge that defensive Arceus is an extremely powerful concept, it's just that dual screens (presumably with the goal of setting up a sweeper, although if you're aiming for something different enlighten me) seems not to be the best fit when I could alternatively run something that is extremely fast and can take on spikers. Anyways, I apologize if I offended you, my wording was a bit harsh.
  15. blitzlefan

    blitzlefan shake it off!

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    Messages:
    1,311
    Arceus-Fighting

    I'd like to propose... ARCEUS-FIGHTING! (I hope this is on time!)
    [​IMG]
    Arceus-Fighting @ Fist Plate
    Trait: Multitype
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Calm Mind
    - Judgment
    - Ice Beam
    - Recover

    ARCEUS-FIGHTING!!! Easily comes in on un-STABbed coverage moves and begins to set up. Few Pokemon resist the combination of Fighting Judgment and Ice Beam, and many opposing teams are caught off guard by the rare Fighting-type and get swept after a few Calm Minds. Calm Mind and Recover are fairly self-explanatory, as the former increases Arceus-Fighting's bulk and offensive prowess while the other extends its longetivity, enough to continue its sweep or stall out Draco Meteors and the such. Judgment is also fairly self-explanatory, as it's Arceus-Fighting's STAB move and hits Arceus-Dark, Arceus-Rock, Arceus-Steel, Dialga, Excadrill, Ferrothorn, and Kyurem-W for super-effective damage. Ice Beam increases coverage, and allows Arceus-Fighting to hit Arceus-Grass, Garchomp, Giratina-A/O, Groudon, Rayquaza, Shaymin-S, Thundurus, and Zekrom. Arceus-Fighting is one of the best offensive checks to Extreme Killer Arceus as well, threatening a 2HKO with a supereffective STAB Judgment. Lastly, Arceus-Fighting is not overly dependant on weather and is rather effective in taking out Ferrothorn (as we have no control over the weather) and most Steel types in general.

    It's really late and I have a ton of homework to do, so I'll leave it as this and probably post more tomorrow if I can.
  16. Bossness

    Bossness

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    OK guys...I have seen a lot of them nominations and they do not explain why it is good in a weatherless team. For example, Arceus-Electric needs rain to use Thunder and hence, is not a good choice.

    I think that a few lines should be added to explain why a particular set would work without weather unless, it is quite obvious (Substitute Darkrai, Shaymin-S, Arceus-Dragon etc.)
  17. IAmAnHero

    IAmAnHero

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    [​IMG]

    Rayquaza @ Choice Scarf Trait: Air Lock
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Naive Nature (+Spd, -SDef)
    - Draco Meteor
    - Earthquake
    - Outrage
    - V-create

    Since the team is going to be weatherless I think Scarf Rayquaza is good idea because he can reliably beat every weather abuser (He can't beat Omastar that has done Shell Smash already but if an Omastar did Shell Smash you're gonna lose). He's scarfed because I've seen Scarf Kingdra before and he'll speed tie. Using Scarf Rayquaza also gets quite a few surprise kills on Lati@s because they think they'll outspeed you and that you're going to boost and then they get hit with Outrage and die tragically.

    Eq vs 4 hp Excadrill 101% - 119%

    V Create vs 4 hp Excadrill 181% - 214%

    Earthquake vs 4 hp Kabutops 89% - 105%

    Draco Meteor vs 4 hp Kabutops 109% - 129%

    Draco Meteor vs 4 hp Omastar 102% - 120%

    Draco Meteor vs Kingdra 154% - 182%

    Outrage vs Kingdra 156% - 184%

    V Create vs 40 hp Venusaur 163% - 192%

    V Create vs Beartic 153% - 181%

    Outrage vs Ludicolo 96.69% to 114.24%
  18. Hack

    Hack I BELIEVE IN TRANSPARENCY IN DEMOCRATIC INSTITUTIONS
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    I believe Fightceus should have more evs in special attack, though. Ask Go10, he's an expert on this matter.

    Scarf Rayquaza may seem appealing, but there are a lot of better ways to beat weather sweepers on a weatherless team. And even then, Rayquaza is better of using its SD-set, which kills Lati@s at +2, and as it outspeeds all weather sweepers anyway (no one in their right mind uses scarf Kingdra, like cmon).
  19. IAmAnHero

    IAmAnHero

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    The Scarf Rayquaza set comes from one of my teams because it was weatherless and I needed a scarfer so he was the only option. I got to #56 on the Ubers Suspect ladder a few months ago with it. It was pretty much only because of Scarf Rayquaza and Chilan Berry Blaziken though. Also I dunno if a Swords Dance Rayquaza can beat Omastar because he can just Shell Smash while you Swords Dance and then just murder Rayquaza with Ice Beam. Rayquaza can't OHKO him with Eq and has to have Draco Meteor to do that.
  20. Hack

    Hack I BELIEVE IN TRANSPARENCY IN DEMOCRATIC INSTITUTIONS
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    And how will Omastar get a shell smash off against an offensive team? Yeah, choice locked Fire-moves (or Ice), like the V-create on the scarf set you suggested.

    In the process of setting up a shell smash, Omastar will be heavily damaged by Dragon Claw, followed by the potential extremespeed. I don't even understand why we're discussing this, as Omastar won't likely pull off a sweep unless we elect to use scarf-mons locked into the wrong moves. And you mentioned earthquake which does indeed OHKO. You won't set-up with a Rayquaza against Omastar, where is the logic in that?

    252+ Atk Life Orb Rayquaza Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Omastar: 286-338 (101.41 - 119.85%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    Dragon Claw calc:
    252+ Atk Life Orb Rayquaza Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Omastar: 172-203 (60.99 - 71.98%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Also, heavy damage. If Omastar smashed, it will be killed by E-speed.

    Reaching a mediocre #56 spot on PS doesn't validate anything either.
  21. Sweep

    Sweep the face of NU and RU stall
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    I really do not like Rayquaza. It is simply too frail, and the Dragon Dance set is incredibly hard to set up with. Even if you do get off a DD, Scarfers like Genesect, Salamence, Garchomp and Palkia can stop it completely, while Lugia can phaze it if Multiscale is intact. Rayquaza also hates priority, especially after Life Orb recoil. I do like Scarf Rayquaza more than the other variants due to its ability to beat all weather sweepers, but it is completely walled by Steel types unless you catch an overeager Ferrothorn switching into a V-Create. By the way, V-Create and scarf do not work well together because of the former's nasty side effect of lowering your defenses and speed.

    Omastar can only beat non-Life Orb Rayquaza by directly attacking with Ice Beam. As Omastar is more of a late-game cleaner in this meta than a set-up sweeper, it would prefer to let something else kill off the green dragon and conserve its energy for taking on EKiller and Mewtwo late in the game. Choosing a specific Rayquaza set specifically due to Omastar paranoia is also pointless seeing as only one person on PS ever uses the shellfish. And Choice Scarf Kingdra? Kingdra outruns almost everything expect Rayquaza (and Luvdisc!!!) in rain anyway, so it doesn't need scarf.

    Anyway, IamHero, I do like your Rayquaza set and your calcs. I just don't like Rayquaza itself.
  22. IAmAnHero

    IAmAnHero

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    Actually I hate Rayquaza too. I haven't had problems using V Create with him though. I just keep him in for a turn just to kill the weather guy and then switch usually. I made that set because it was the only thing that fit my old team unfortunately. He has no bulk and the rock weakness makes me sad. I like using Salamence more because I feel that he's hardly ever in Ubers and Moxie is fun. This makes me want to recommend making a team around Salamence I guess.

    [​IMG]

    Salamence (M) @ Choice Scarf Trait: Moxie
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Naive Nature (+Spd, -SDef)
    - Dragon Claw
    - Earthquake
    - Fire Blast
    - Outrage

    I don't really think I need to say more than this is obviously the standard Scarf Moxiemence set
  23. KidChameleon

    KidChameleon

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    Gentlemen, since we are weatherless, may i propose to you

    [​IMG]
    Giratina-O @ Griseous orb Trait: levitate
    EVs: 212 HP / 72 Def / 224 SpA
    Modest Nature (+SAtk ; -Atk )
    - Substitute
    - Calm mind
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Aurasphere


    It cans set up against the two main weather inducers Groudon and Kyogre, and also Ferrothorn, and is also a spinnblocker, it sweeps and checks a lot of things, and is difficult to revenge kill due to its bulk, its substitute and its stabbed griseous orb dragon pulse, it's a likely a CM Arceus with less speed but more bulk, and levitate so it's not weak to toxic spikes, doesn't need spinner

    But it needs support since it lacks recovery and is slow, so better come up with wish, and since it's spinblocking, could be useful to set up a lot of hasards

    Well, it's a really good set in a no weather team, besides, it's somewhat original since no one plays it
  24. jackm

    jackm

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    All right, Submissions are closed! The poll is going up, and everyone will have 72 hours to vote from the time at which this is posted. Thanks for all of the great submissions, everyone!
  25. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo I am hungry
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    Although Darkrai, Shaymin, Latios, etc. are all solid suggestions I am against their selection. These mons push us towards a weatherless Heavy Offense team which I feel is undesirable. Not only am I tired of this form of weatherless being the most dominant in OU, I also feel that the majority of successful weatherless teams in Ubers have been HO as well. I'd rather that we take advantage of this project to dive into the depth of Ubers to show just how wondefully diverse this team is by creating a beautiful weatherless balanced, semi-stall, bulky offense, etc. There is nothing wrong with these suggestions, I'm just against them for personal bias.


    Now that the bias is out of the way, I going to try to make an objective analysis of what I feel are the three best starts for this team; Dragonceus, Dialga, and Giratina-O. Each share similar valuable traits in their elemental resists from their Dragon typing (important in a Rain heavy metagame) while quickly becoming dangerous forces with their reliable means of boosting. They each have some key differences, though, that makes choosing between them possible although difficult.


    Dragonceus: This is the most flexible of the three. The 120 stat spread and specialized EV spread allow it to remain acceptably offensive as well as defensive. The instant and reliable Recover sets it apart allowing it to come in and out a lot easier. Substitute also helps make it more flexible as it can scout switches and provide a surprising buffer.

    Dragonceus has its drawbacks (relative to the other three) that come from its advantages. The flexibility leaves it without specialization. It lacks coverage to complement its offensive leanings leaving it setup fodder for Ferrothorn ,for example, who can play mindgames with Gyro Ball and Leech Seed/TWave. This offensive EV spread also undermines its resistences and leaves it less defensive.
    Show Hide
    252+ SpA Kyogre Ice Beam vs. 96 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Dragon: 216-256 (53.33 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    252+ SpA Kyogre Water Spout vs. 96 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Dragon in rain: 191-225 (47.16 - 55.55%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    The scouting brought by Substitute comes at the price of a vulnerability to Toxic Spikes and the occasional need to rely on prediction to properly protect it from status. Dragonceus also brings other minor drawbacks such as a useless ability and the removal of any other possible future pick concerning the conceptually stupid Crapceus. (seriously, this goat is an eyesore :P)

    Dialga: Dialga is definitely the sturdiest available choice. The steel typing not only brings it an immunity to any attempted form of Toxic poison but also brings plenty of resistances. It also exchanges dragon's traditional weaknesses for those of a steel type allowing it to have the upper hand in a one on one fight and allowing it to stay in when its fellow beasts enters. Rest brings it a way to prevent harmful status (via sleep) as well as a method of removal. The fully defensive spread allows it to capitalize on the natural defensive leanings. Its not too bad on the offensive side, either, as the 120 base attack will still hurt when used with an non-locking Outrage.

    Dialga shares its disappointments as well. The steel typing leaves it in a weird place, removing the fire resistance and giving it some fairly common weaknesses (Ground and Fighting). Rest has its perks but the two turns of sleep when combined with the new sleep mechanic certainly has its drawbacks. It's not nearly as spammable as Recover and relying on Sleep Talk introduces an unwanted luck aspect. Seeing as Outrage locks if Dialga isn't sleeping it becomes an unreliable attack. Dialga's pitiful 90 base speed also heps to hurt its offensive presence.

    Giratina-O: This guy is just weird. He has a that giant HP stat mixed with 120 SpAtk and a power boosting item. It has the excellent immunities brought by Levitate and the ghost typing. The former allows it to avoid Toxic Spikes and the latter gives it a supporting option for its ability to block Rapid Spin. It uses Substitute, also, as a defensive measure yet at the same time runs Aura Sphere as a coverage move. The mixed EV spread also gives it a combination of bulk and power.

    All this would make it seem to be the most flexible but, in reality, it makes it the most demanding for support. The boosting item prevents it from using Leftovers which leaves it no form of recovery. The poor 90 base speed gimps all that offensive possibility. This leaves Giratina-O as a "jack of all trades, master of none". Don't let this mislead you into thinking he is bad, Giratina-O is very effective and provides plenty of advantages. It just demands for more support in exchange for these boons.


    Overall, though, I think I'm going to vote for Dragonceus. I think its flexibility is the most valuable attribute here as it allows us to have more wiggle room in our later team building. It's self sufficiency will be useful in battle, as well, since it will not require us to use as much of the support we will eventually give it. (Plus, these sets are too close for me to be voting for my own set)

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