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Umbreon
- Thread starter Kindrindra
- Start date
I've found that Umbreon works like a mini Blissey in RU. With Wish and Heal Bell, it can keep the res of your team alive and either Curse up for a Payback sweep, or Toxic Stall. Obviously not as good in UU or OU, but it's pretty great in RU.
Did you not read my post? Umbreon is great in RU. Mean Look passing isn't the only thing it can do. Useless? Far from it. I make it work.
Oh, how about a pass to Espeon?
Chandelure is a great example, but not the only one.
*I added Leftovers on Umbreon over Expert Belt... But I am still asking about its effectiveness on a Drought team, especially since many Chlorophyllers are mixed (i.e. Victreebel), and other Fire types like Chandelure are resistant to Bug moves. Also Chandelure and Umbreon cover each other's weaknesses perfectly, and Umbreon can slowly Baton Pass boosts, while Chandelure's Shadow Tag allows it to Trap a Foe while boosted. (i.e. Umbreon Baton Passes a Work Up (+1 Atk, +1 SpA) to Nitro Charge Chandelure.
Can an Umbreon with Hidden Power Fire, on a Drought team deal good damage to Scizor?
Umbreon: @ Leftovers
252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
(+Def, - Atk)
Work Up
Wish
Baton Pass
Hidden Power Fire
Why? Baton Pass means Wish and Work-up wont go to waste... Hidden Power Fire means after it lures in Ferrothorn, Forretress, Scizor, etc. it can hit them with Hidden Power Fire, afterall, if it's used on a Drought team, people assume it's to maximize Moonlight, while you are using a Wish set.
Work up is also more universal than Curse, and can work well when passed on to Mixed Sweepers. Umbreon also doesn't need to feel bad about not having STAB, Drought covers that. On a Drought team, Fire types can take Bug attacks directed at Umbreon, and Umbreon works extremely well with Chandelure because they cover eachother's weaknesses, and Chandelure can either absorb Fire moves targeting Umbreon (Flash Fire), or Trap a foe after a slow Baton Pass from Umbreon, making Chandelure's Shadow Tag very deadly.
You don't need to Baton Pass to pass a Wish.
Did I ever mention RU? Most people here are mentioning OU Pokemon and trying to get it to work in OU. Without its ability to Mean Look Pass, it has lost the only niche that it could even say it somewhat had in the higher tiers. It is now absolutely useless in said tiers. It will not check Scizor, Reuniclus, Latios, Latias, work on a Drought team, etc, because Umbreon is offensively useless and has a terrible MonoStab. Your Umbreon working in RU is completely irrelevant.
I have no idea why people try so hard to make an umbreon counter a single pokemon (Scizor) when you have 5 other slots left in your party for that purpose. Umbreon should be used as umbreon....not magnezone.
Plus charm umbreon is the best bulk up/dragon dance stopper minus the ones with taunt which is like gyarados and haxorus. Almost every other bulk upper/ dragon dancer can be stopped and koed with toxic if they opt to stay in. Cursebreon is pure set up bait...as with all other umbreons. Snarl might not be effective against calm minders with recover....but will stop calm minders without recover thanks to toxic. All of these situations should only be against non-steel pokemon obviously.
Plus charm is really helpful to support your team...because you can switch out...unlike curse. Sure they will switch out also...but that's good (scouting, entry hazards,...it may not phaze but certainly can force switches with charm and snarl.
Plus charm umbreon is the best bulk up/dragon dance stopper minus the ones with taunt which is like gyarados and haxorus. Almost every other bulk upper/ dragon dancer can be stopped and koed with toxic if they opt to stay in. Cursebreon is pure set up bait...as with all other umbreons. Snarl might not be effective against calm minders with recover....but will stop calm minders without recover thanks to toxic. All of these situations should only be against non-steel pokemon obviously.
Plus charm is really helpful to support your team...because you can switch out...unlike curse. Sure they will switch out also...but that's good (scouting, entry hazards,...it may not phaze but certainly can force switches with charm and snarl.
Its true that all the other eevee evolutions can learn the same moves that all umbreon sets have bar snarl, payback, moonlight, and mean look (which is useless because trap passing doesn't work this generation). But who would ever use a vaporeon with charm, wish, and toxic. You could, but wouldn't you rather use scald, wish, protect, ice beam/hp (electric)/roar. And lets be a little optimistic and look at his stats instead of comparing his movepool. It isn't helpful if we just give up on him.
I have no idea if this would work but does synchronize work with item inflicted status? If so this could be possible
Umbreon @flame orb
EVs idk really 252 HP, 252 sp def put not reall thouhts into evs just make it bulky
Heal bell
Charm/baton pass
Payback
Wish/Baton Pass
Theoretically synch would activate on the turn flame orb burns umbreon so switch this into a physical attacker. Then charm to make them cry. Payback so you're not taunt bait, baton pass to GTFO if you need to, or wish for support. Heal bell supports the whole team and removes the burn so he can do it again later. Gimmicky but could cripple physical attackers
Umbreon @flame orb
EVs idk really 252 HP, 252 sp def put not reall thouhts into evs just make it bulky
Heal bell
Charm/baton pass
Payback
Wish/Baton Pass
Theoretically synch would activate on the turn flame orb burns umbreon so switch this into a physical attacker. Then charm to make them cry. Payback so you're not taunt bait, baton pass to GTFO if you need to, or wish for support. Heal bell supports the whole team and removes the burn so he can do it again later. Gimmicky but could cripple physical attackers
I personally think finding ways to make overwise useless pokemon have some clever strategy behind them is far more helpful than just spouting off pointless critical oneliners like "HURR IT DONT HAVE MEAN LOOK PASS ITS USELESS" hurr as if you're some sort of genius on the subject.
You're essentially saying no discussion is better than some discussion, and getting all pushy about tiers. Shut up. True, such a discussion may benefit more in RU, in which case a simple response in the theme of "maybe this would work better in RU" is fine instead of an angry rant and letting it all escalate. That's what the better members of Smogon generally do.
The thing is...it is useless. It had one niche--only one. And it lost it. It's got amazing defensive stats, I'll give it that. But it can't do anything in return. There's absolutely zero reason to use a Pokemon that has lost its only niche--in the higher tiers. Its usability in RU wasn't pertinent in this ridiculously necrobumped discussion because this is in the OU subforum. It might be able to work in RU but that has no bearing here. As of now, I am saying no discussion is better than some discussion about this Pokemon because, outside of Eeveelution teams, it has no usability whatsoever. It's a terrible wish passer due to its low HP, it's bad at spreading status because of Synchronize, it has no offensive stats making a boosting set unreasonable, etc. It's only good at one thing, and that's being a bulky Heal Beller, but Blissey has it beat by far. The better members of Smogon don't waste their time discussing Pokemon with zero usability in the tier the thread has been left in. I don't see how I ranted, as it was a few sentences, or how I was angry. In all ways, you're the one who's overreacting. But regardless, this Pokemon can't be used in OU, really at all. If you actually look when this thread was made, it was made in September. That was before we knew Mean Look passing was impossible. When that was found out, this thread should have been closed. But it got necrobumped and we're continuing to talk about a mediocre Pokemon.
I want to see this moved to the RU subforum when we get one, or atleast discussed in the RU thread. But currently, it has no OU worthy discussion, and should be closed.
Umbreon is pretty much outclassed by EVERYTHING now
And truth be told I'd prolly use Ariados as a DP trap passer due to sleep immune, better than Synchronise since Breloom is immune to sleep and so on...
Support is pretty much trolled by Vaporeon, and Curse sweeping... just sucks. Really. BU Scrafty has higher Attack and Fighting STAB, while having similar bulk.
And truth be told I'd prolly use Ariados as a DP trap passer due to sleep immune, better than Synchronise since Breloom is immune to sleep and so on...
Support is pretty much trolled by Vaporeon, and Curse sweeping... just sucks. Really. BU Scrafty has higher Attack and Fighting STAB, while having similar bulk.
If umbreon needs to have a niche then it would be the combination of both charm and snarl.....no other pokemon can do this better. Umbreon is the best charm user of all eevee evolutions with its better defenses. But definitely not viable in OU. Vappy can't do this better and neither would he when he would rather run his standard set wish passing, scalding set.
I'd like to see a non roar/charm vappy stand up to bulk up conkeldurr. Can he...?... of course not. But charm toxic umbreon just laughs at conkel's pathetic bulk up attempts. Even with guts....at -6 atk drain punch fails to 2-hit KO. He also laughs at all non taunting dragon dancers with charm and toxic.
Just because a pokemon can LEARN the same moves as umbreon doesn't mean he outclasses him....they actually have to RUN the move in order to outclass him and have the stats to back it up.
Just because a pokemon can LEARN the same moves as umbreon doesn't mean he outclasses him....they actually have to RUN the move in order to outclass him and have the stats to back it up.
WHY ARE YOU USING CHARM?
2) Why would it let you get him to -6 before Drain Punching your ass to oblivion?
3) CHARM SNARL IS NOT A NICHE.
4) Stop leaving your Umbreon in on Conkeldurr. It's not the smartest thing to do! =(.
5) If a Vaporeon had Charm...that's a stupid Vaporeon.
1) Why the fuck would Conkeldurr Bulk Up on an Umbreon who has used Charm on it/before?
2) Why would it let you get him to -6 before Drain Punching your ass to oblivion?
3) CHARM SNARL IS NOT A NICHE.
4) Stop leaving your Umbreon in on Conkeldurr. It's not the smartest thing to do! =(.
5) If a Vaporeon had Charm...that's a stupid Vaporeon.
Why would ANYONE run Charm on Umbreon in the first place? If they see Charm, they switch. Even though Snarl is released, Umbreon can't learn it without defaulting to DW, because Zoroark/Smeargle can't breed it onto Eevee, who doesn't learn it. As for Vaporeon, he simply doesn't care, Hydro Pump/Surf dents Conk.
Also, Charm Toxic Umbreon laughing at Conkeldurr's pathetic bulk up attempts? WTF?
Also, Charm Toxic Umbreon laughing at Conkeldurr's pathetic bulk up attempts? WTF?
Scrafty doesn't need Sucker Punch, it has something better, called Drain Punch. And Fighting STAB.