1. Welcome to Smogon! Check out the Smogon Starters Hangout for everything you need to know about starting out in the community. Don't forget to introduce yourself in the Introduction and Hangout Thread, too!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

VGC '12 World Championships - Kona, HI, USA - WON by BlueCookies & Dimsun!

Discussion in 'VGC' started by Firestorm, Apr 17, 2012.

  1. BlueCookies

    BlueCookies April Fools 2009 Participant
    is a VGC 2012 Masters World Champion

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2007
    Messages:
    1,267
    First of all stop talking like Europe has it so bad when they have it by far the best right now. Europe as a whole gets 20 invites, with the chance to attend multiple Nationals. America gets 4 invites and Japan only gets 2 and had to suffer through a very poor online qualification tournament.

    The trip to Japan was not worth more than $5000. It was worth exactly $5000. Anything over $5000 you had to pay for. Which you then had to pay taxes on. Which you had to endure a travel agent arranging the trip at inflated prices. This year is obviously a transition year, and having scholarships as prizes is a step in the right direction. I have been in the past and still am disappointed with the way things have gone, but this is one of the things they are doing right. We are still just a side event for TCG so it's expected that they have much better prizes.
  2. DM

    DM Ce soir, on va danser.
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Smogon IRC SOp Alumnus

    Joined:
    May 24, 2005
    Messages:
    12,839
    am I the only one who feels like BC's two silver trophies in his postbit are just severely inadequate
  3. Eraddd

    Eraddd One Pixel
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2009
    Messages:
    2,339
    3 peat ray.

    Also zog needs to grow up.

    Finally, I'm personally very amenable to TPCi's scholarship prizes, emphasizing education but I understand people aren't impressed because not everyone, especially in Masters, is in school, making it pretty useless. I would like it more if they kept the Junior's and Senior's scholarships but changed it to a cash prize for Masters.
  4. Zog

    Zog

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2009
    Messages:
    934

    Lol ray mate I'm meaning the prizes, you plonker. As for whether 5 single elims (with few able to attend more than 1) is better than one swiss national and a reasonable worlds LCQ, questionable, but that's not what I'm talking about. I EXPECT BETTER FROM YOU DUDE what were you thinking there that's such a dumb response (also get on irc more every time I go on you're not there ;_;).

    My issue is that, as a European player, there's pretty much nothing to play for now other than the title. That isn't an exaggeration: it's either 2 months of tuition fees which probably won't matter cause student debt gets written off anyway, or nothing. So for say a German, it's some stickers, a baseball cap, a box of Pokémon cards and a trophy. The travel for next year becomes your best lootage. It's a hugely US-centric prize.

    Forgive me for being so immature I call bullshit when I see it.
  5. Solace

    Solace darling i'm a nightmare dressed like a daydream
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2009
    Messages:
    2,074
    Not to mention the title of being Pokemon World Champion. lol this is a Pokemon game and ideally they're going to gear their prizes towards the younger demographic that they want to attract. Having scholarships just puts us on a similar level to TCG, and we'll work our way to their caliber of prizes.
  6. Cybertron

    Cybertron Can't hit WoW
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2008
    Messages:
    2,940
    I don't really get how it's a US-centric prize when college tuition in the US is like $40,000 a year!!!
  7. Eraddd

    Eraddd One Pixel
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2009
    Messages:
    2,339
    Yeah but your state government cuts down in-state tuition and the upper-tier ones give you a lot of financial aid (Unless you're an athlete and don't receive an athletic scholarship, an out-of-state student, or international, paying full price is virtually unseen of. Of course, this is assuming you have decent grades.) Also your school system and loan systems are infinitely retarded (how do you justify that pricetag, when your northern neighbour charges students 5k-7k). But I digress; 3.5k is a good deal of money that comes off your tuition and I don't think anyone would turn that down.
  8. flash_mc

    flash_mc

    Joined:
    May 17, 2009
    Messages:
    176
    I've been reading the rules and I still don't know if we will be able to use pokémon and moves released in bw2... Any of you have a word on this?
  9. Solace

    Solace darling i'm a nightmare dressed like a daydream
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2009
    Messages:
    2,074
    BW2 stuff probably won't be allowed, but the best way to find out would be sending an email over to TPCi. I think some people on the forum had already heard they wouldn't be allowed, although that might have been for nationals.
  10. Roie

    Roie

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2010
    Messages:
    59
    This is really the case? Is tcg more popular than vgc2012
  11. Zog

    Zog

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2009
    Messages:
    934
    Trading card organised play's been going for a lot longer so it's more established.

    But yeah, VGC should have a bigger focus: just compare the numbers of people who play. I have never known anyone (who I haven't met off a Pokémon fansite) that has played Pokémon TCG to a remotely competitive level. I played Yugioh for 2 years and never met a single person who played Pokémon, only YGO or MTG.

    Videogame wise, you can generally just talk to anyone over 16 with a gaming hobby and they'll know of Smogon, EVs, simulators, etc. I've had random people in the street ask me if I pokésav, lol. There are literally millions of active players but not many play Organised Play mostly because it's pretty low-key.

    From what I know of the TCG, there's a much smaller serious playerbase but almost everyone who knows what they're doing is involved in Organised Play. It's because it's a card game, I guess, and you need to physically be in the presence of other people to play properly (card game sims are terrible) so naturally Organised Play is more important.

    So no, I wouldn't say TCG is more popular. It just has a much longer tournament history and gets taken more seriously by the staff because it's a card game not a video game, and card games naturally encourage Organised Play: thus attracting people who are interested in becoming staff, who will then care mostly about TCG.
    It's kind of a vicious cycle.

    We're a side event partially because VGC just isn't what the organisers are used to, and partially because VG players aren't always the kind to attend tournaments while TCG players have to be. But since we have so many more players in the first place, I think just buffing up the stakes would be enough to make it huge.
  12. Team Rocket Elite

    Team Rocket Elite Data Integration Thought Entity
    is a Pokemon Researcher

    Joined:
    May 3, 2005
    Messages:
    1,006
    When I asked about a month ago they said BW2 stuff would not be allowed at the Worlds. It may be worth asking again if this is still true.
  13. Solace

    Solace darling i'm a nightmare dressed like a daydream
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2009
    Messages:
    2,074
    I'm like 99% certain TCG events get a larger attendance than VGC events. TCG has always been their main competitive focus for Worlds since it makes them the most money. To keep competitive you have to keep buying new sets and cards, which ends up costing a lot more than your $35 copy of Pokemon B/W.

    While it may not get a larger Smogon user attendance, since we are a video game site, it definitely has a big crowd of people who have to spend hundreds of dollars on decks to remain competitive. It isn't surprising that their prizes are larger.

    Competitive video game staff is harder to find since there is more technical based rules as opposed to just reading whatever it says on the card. I also think that TPCi hires more TCG based staff since that's where the money is. It's becoming clearer that they plan to give VGC the same kind of system that TCG has been running, which will make us less of a side event and more of a real competition in their eyes (and hopefully give us some VGC based staff). TCG can afford better prizes because you have to spend a ton of money to even become competitive, while VGC players can pay a grand total of like $35 every time a new game comes out and have access to every Pokemon.

    It's not worth it to complain about prizes. Getting scholarships shows that they're at least trying to put VGC on a more serious level like they've been putting TCG, whether the monetary value is equivalent or not. It seems like we've been downgraded this year, but we're in a transition year. Give it some time and I'm sure our prize quality will work its way up.
  14. DM

    DM Ce soir, on va danser.
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Smogon IRC SOp Alumnus

    Joined:
    May 24, 2005
    Messages:
    12,839
    all I know is when I, DM, the dark horse of all dark horses, beat Ray Rizzo in the final battle and proclaim myself world champion of Pokemon, I will sell off my trip to Japan to the highest bidder

    (because I'm already going there right after worlds)
  15. Zog

    Zog

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2009
    Messages:
    934
    Haha if you read what I said again you'll see we don't actually disagree. Slightly unclear I guess but the gist of what I was saying there is VGC = many players, few attend events, TCG = few players, most attend events.

    My complaint is that the scholarships are of drastically different value to people from different places. It ranges from an ok amount of money for college (US/Japan) to pretty much nothing (UK) to literally nothing (Much of Europe). I don't want to beat an American in the final for a lesser prize than they could've had. So it only makes sense to have some kind of choice for the winners, like you could choose where to holiday.

    Also the games do earn considerably more money than the TCG lol. You don't buy cards direct from TPCI, so the money TCG players spend actually goes to dealers. Since the games sell so much more than the trading cards, it's a safe bet that the games earn more.
  16. The Knights of Wario Land

    The Knights of Wario Land

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2012
    Messages:
    818
    Dude, the trading card game is soooooooo much bigger than I think you're evaluating it as.
  17. flash_mc

    flash_mc

    Joined:
    May 17, 2009
    Messages:
    176
    I'd like to ask them again, because in the ruleset it doesn't mention anywhere that they are not allowed. Could you send be their email so I can ask them again?
  18. Team Rocket Elite

    Team Rocket Elite Data Integration Thought Entity
    is a Pokemon Researcher

    Joined:
    May 3, 2005
    Messages:
    1,006
    I used their official customer support form:
    https://www.pokemon.com/us/support

    After you submit a question, you will usually get a response back from general support with a generic response that doesn't answer the question. If that happens, you need to reject the solution and ask for the question to be forwarded to the Organized Play team.
  19. Owlfred

    Owlfred

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2012
    Messages:
    11
    It seems weird to claim that TCG makes TPC/TPCi more money than the VGC, when Black/White has sold ~14.71 million copies as of April 2012, as compared to the $3 per booster pack from the VGCs (You'll need, what, ~140 million sales spread out over the last two years to have a reasonable comparison?) Of course, we need to factor in how much money Nintendo/Game Freak gets from all the sales too.

    No, the real thing to examine would be the factors responsible for why TCG is better organized than VGC, be it the competitive history, the technical details needed to run events, or the claim that TCG players would be spending more on their cards than the simple cost of a video game.

    Also, are you guys seriously complaining about prizes? It would seem more productive to criticize the entire format in order to find out what could bring in more VGC players, rather than complain about prizes, which should be the least of a player's concerns.
  20. voodoo pimp

    voodoo pimp Apply directly to the forehead
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2010
    Messages:
    2,965
    I did that and got the same useless response about "future content" (apparently the possibility of imports or trading or Japanese players using it against us doesn't count) from an admin who closed the ticket. I'm gonna try again with a more aggressive response. Edit: round 2, same response.
    The difference there is that most of those sales have nothing to do with competitive play, and most competitive players would have bought the game anyway. On the other hand, the TCG tournaments are a much larger part of the total TCG sales, and most players wouldn't spend nearly as much on cards for casual play.
  21. Owlfred

    Owlfred

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2012
    Messages:
    11
    I guess I didn't make my post clear enough in the second paragraph. Is the reason that the TCG has better prizes due to the fact that TPC/TPCi is actively thinking about the fact that the TCG players may spend more on cards, or is it just a side effect from other factors?

    Also, as to whether or not people can use BW2 moves in the VGC: http://assets.pokemon.com/assets/cms/pdf/op/tournaments/2012/pokemon_official_tournament_formats.pdf (Page 12). I'd argue that an official game release is/is not an "event". If the officials agree/disagree, you guys could always form a massive boycott. On a more serious note, they should really have a separate rulebook for the VGC, instead of one rulebook and another that has details of the actual tournament format. IIRC, at Surrey regionals, the tournament rules were posted everywhere, but not the tournament format, so there was no info on what pokemon were allowed.
  22. Firestorm

    Firestorm I did my best, I have no regrets!
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Smogon Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon IRC AOp Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2007
    Messages:
    7,307
    ^ They were using the same piece of paper I used during the side tournament at Provincials iirc so all the banned Pokemon were on there. There was also a table set up for anyone who was confused on the ruleset to get help from which tournament staff were directing people towards.

    This entire conversation about VGC vs TCG and Organized Play seems to involve a lot of missing information and has people basing arguments around facts that aren't even true.
  23. flash_mc

    flash_mc

    Joined:
    May 17, 2009
    Messages:
    176
    Same here... Is that difficult for them to tell us Yes or No?? Damn

    Edit: I rejected the solution and I have gotten this response:

  24. voodoo pimp

    voodoo pimp Apply directly to the forehead
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2010
    Messages:
    2,965
    After my third attempt:
    Yeah, fuck you too.
  25. Roie

    Roie

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2010
    Messages:
    59
    Please provide some insight then.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)