Inner Focus and Sash generally are just superior to Mienshao. It still allows you to OHKO Kanga with HJK, while not fearing Fake Out when kanga comes in after you have used Fake out. Sash also helps with Talonflame: take Brave Bird, then kill with Rock Slide.
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VGC 2015 Viability Rankings - Mark 2
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The thing is Mienshao also has access to Quick Guard, which allows to block Fake Out as well. I dunno if Reckless HJK is that worth it. Like, in a high-level stage of a tournament, or in a bo3 games HJK doesn't seem like the safest option. Same goes for Inner Focus, as Kangaskhan isn't going to Fake Out Shao anymore. Mienshao has 105 base speed, which is pretty bad for a fighting type, as Gengar outspeeds and fires WoW away. Even Terrakion outspeeds lol. It also has a serious 4MSS which is kinda bad, as you can run Knock Off, U-Turn, HJK, Rock Slide, Drain Punch, Low Kick, Protect, Quick Guard, Wide Guard and even Special Attacks like HP Ice (gotta hit them landoges) and Aura Sphere (not worth it). I agree on the fact Shao needs to be ranked C at the very least BUT HJK doesn't seem to be a good idea on bo3 matches. That's the only thing i wanna point out
Quick Guard shits all over Khan and Talonflame, protects Mienshao AND its partner, and forces out Sableye/Whimsicott instantly while greatly limiting what Thundurus can do. The only advantage to Inner Focus whatsoever is surprising Weavile, Mega Lopunny, Infernape, and I guess Ambipom? Reckless has literally no drawback. Its a free 20% power boost to your main STAB and greatly increases your damage against neutral hits. HJK is going to chop off 50% HP max on a miss/Protect/Ghost even with Inner Focus. I've literally never been in a situation where Mienshao has flinched, and faster Fake Out are almost non-existant (Quick Guard, for whatever idiotic reason, is only +2 priority so faster Fake Out users beat Quick Guard). I have, however, been in many situations where the extra power paid off. Can't even count how many Garchomp, Rotom-W, and Rotom-H were killed because they never saw it coming in VGC 2014. If you aren't running Quick Guard, then yes, Inner Focus has some merit, as otherwise Khan can Fake Out -> Sucker Punch a KO if Mienshao cannot use Fake Out. I guess it prevents Scarf landog flinches with Rock Slide but Mienshao really has no business being on the field with landog, unless you're running Wide Guard - at which point, Inner Focus is made moot. Not arguing to be an ass, I'm just saying I have a lot of experience using it lol.
Sash is good, there's no argument there. :P
4MSS, absolutely. I have about 8 moves I want to run and can only pick half :<
Gengar and Terrakion are huge threats, which is one of several reasons I feel it should be in ~C. MegaGross, Thundurus, there's no shortage of things that outrun Mienshao. Also, 105 isn't bad Speed for a Fighting type: the Musketeers, Hawlucha, and Infernape are the only (non-Mega) ones faster and Infernape is the only one not fucked by WoW anyway :P
As for Best of 3... yes, it does create a lot of pressure on the user to use HJK. Recently experienced that myself.
Mienshao in general exerts a lot of Protect pressure, that's a double-edged sword: yes, you have to think twice before hitting the "brutally murder" button, but the opponent also must consider that Protecting every other turn can seriously kill momentum and give Mienshao a free switch or its partner can attack with one less thing to worry about. Even if you do kick a Protect, Mienshao hardly cares. Like I said, nearly anything OHKOs, so it doesn't matter if its at 100%, 84%, 50%, or 1%, the only risk is breaking Sash. At which point you do have 2 other moveslots to use if you fear breaking your sash.
If they switch out on a Fake Out and Protect next turn, they just wasted 2 turns. Low Kick is pretty safe, but falters on Rotom-W/H, Drain Punch is just way too weak and Mienshao does not have the bulk to use it. HP Ice is cool (pun), and Mienshao really does not give a single fuck about lowering its defenses with Naive/Hasty, but you do need way too much investment to use it. 4/0 Lando-T alone takes 172 EVs + LO with Naive to guarantee the OHKO, or 20 EVs + LO for Fake Out -> HP Ice to KO. I'd pick Infernape for the Mixed route.
tl;dr the thing with HJK is "yes it's very risky, Bo3 especially, but its other options really aren't any better" xD
Regen Fake Out+U-Turn could be viable but imo Torn-T is probably better for that.
Reckless HJK's power + good suport moves is just Mienshao's niche, I guess is my point. If we take away Reckless HJK, we're just using a frail Hitmontop.
Wanna mention, Quick Guard, Wide Guard and Crafty Shield...all of them are +3. Same goes for Fake Out. This is mainly for the people that think that a fast E-Speed outspeeds Fake Out so you don't get flinched that turn.
I think we might need to check every single mon in the dex to see what we are missing. Like people keep saying, we are missing a lot of Pokémon that are now used on BSD. I think we should first check the veterans of VGC'12 and VGC'13 then go for the new mons. There are 719 mons....so we might still be missing some...
yeah, it's been predicted that some 150 Pokemon are viable this year, or at least viable enough to be put on a tierlist.
I don't have any massive qualms about the tierlist for now, but it'd be interesting if we could get some Smogon Doubles players like Mizuhime or household-name VGC players like Paul, Cybertron or Wolfe to give their two cents.
I don't have any massive qualms about the tierlist for now, but it'd be interesting if we could get some Smogon Doubles players like Mizuhime or household-name VGC players like Paul, Cybertron or Wolfe to give their two cents.
Yeah I agree with the above statement. One Pokemon that I have been messing around with and who I think is worthy of C- rank is Cobalion. With a nice Steel/Fighting typing along with Justified, it is the ultimate Bisharp counter. Not to mention, being part Steel type, it can check Fairy spam though it is hit neutrally by Fairy due to it being part Fighting. Also, obviously, it is pretty nice against Kanga due to its strong Fighting STAB. It's obviously not the best considering it is weak to a lot of common moves, but I think the ability to check Bisharp, Kanga, and Fairy types is enough to warrant it a rise to C-
Oh, yeah. Either way, Quick Guard really should block faster Fake Out. Not like +4 would break it.
Crafty Shield effectively has +4 because Prankster, and actually works for blocking Status moves
Never used Cobalion in Doubles, but could be fun.
At least it's faster and better than regular lucario on that role. Punishing the Bisharp+Sylveon+Kanga core is always important. Aaron hasn't been active on Smogon for quite a while, so idk if he will help. He has like, the biggest schedule of all times.
I honestly feel like gastrodon could be moved up form C+ to B/B-.
It has only one crippling flaw, which is it's incredible weakness to grass. There is not too many hard hitting grass types in the meta, and there are very many pokes that resist grass. You can also give it a rindo berry so it can tank a grass move. Although it's defense is not the best, it has an impressive base 111 HP and fairly decent special defense, which adds up to it having solid bulk. It has access to speed control in the form of icy wind. Gastrodon does not have the biggest variety in terms of movepool, but some of the moves it has access to are very good. It has access to earth power, scald, ice beam, sludge bomb and muddy water and more. Earth power hits hard on pokémon like Heatran and Bisharp (it can easily be EV'd to OHKO Bisharp with earth power), whilst ice beam punishes pokémon like Garchomp, Landorus-t and Salamence. Scald and muddy water hits things like Talonflame, plus scald could score a burn which hurts for basically any physicall attacker. In addition to that it has access to recover, which is very nice to have because some recovery is always good :)
All in all I feel like it deserves a higher rank than C+
It has only one crippling flaw, which is it's incredible weakness to grass. There is not too many hard hitting grass types in the meta, and there are very many pokes that resist grass. You can also give it a rindo berry so it can tank a grass move. Although it's defense is not the best, it has an impressive base 111 HP and fairly decent special defense, which adds up to it having solid bulk. It has access to speed control in the form of icy wind. Gastrodon does not have the biggest variety in terms of movepool, but some of the moves it has access to are very good. It has access to earth power, scald, ice beam, sludge bomb and muddy water and more. Earth power hits hard on pokémon like Heatran and Bisharp (it can easily be EV'd to OHKO Bisharp with earth power), whilst ice beam punishes pokémon like Garchomp, Landorus-t and Salamence. Scald and muddy water hits things like Talonflame, plus scald could score a burn which hurts for basically any physicall attacker. In addition to that it has access to recover, which is very nice to have because some recovery is always good :)
All in all I feel like it deserves a higher rank than C+
the problem with gastrodon is that it's way too passive outside of scald burns. it struggles to get the OHKO on megamence and landorus-t consistently (especially with those two opting for bulkier spreads), and if it invests heavily in special attack or uses an expert belt, it gives up some recovery/bulk and can't take hits as well. it can't actually take care of water types either; it just stops them from using water-type moves. suicune can still snarl and tailwind, rotom-w can thunderbolt and will-o-wisp, and ludicolo can basically eat gastrodon for HP. it can't ohko much of anything outside of x4 weak pokemon that don't invest in defense besides heatran (who can avoid earth powers with sub and/or moar bulk+leftovers) and can't really take repeated hits either (bold max defense is still 2HKO'd by mega kang and mence) unless it spends its time spamming recover. it's niche is storm drain, which is pretty good when paired with heatran and such, but by definition of a C rank pokemon, it has a crippling flaw (being way too passive) that prevents it from being used consistently, but still works decently because of that niche.
leremyju
Banned deucer.
I think we can make a similar connection with Gastrodon and Swampert. Both have their differences, Swampert being more offensive and having wide guard, while Gastrodon has Storm Drain. Similarly, they are bulk water grounds with the same coverage moves. Swampert is better except for the ability, and it is B+
Gastrodon only has Storm Drain over it so I think C is good. Look at the below description, it has a niche over Swampert but is generally outclassed.
C: Reserved for Pokemon that can work okay within the VGC15 metagame. However, they either have crippling flaws that prevent consistent performance or require much team support to work on most teams. Pokemon that have a few niches in the metagame but are mainly outclassed by higher-ranked Pokemon also belong here.
Gastrodon only has Storm Drain over it so I think C is good. Look at the below description, it has a niche over Swampert but is generally outclassed.
C: Reserved for Pokemon that can work okay within the VGC15 metagame. However, they either have crippling flaws that prevent consistent performance or require much team support to work on most teams. Pokemon that have a few niches in the metagame but are mainly outclassed by higher-ranked Pokemon also belong here.
Okay. You know how I said that I thought the tierlist was fine as it was? I lied. It's stable, but there are some things that I want to address.
I also recommend that Landog is moved below M-Kang, to show that M-Kang is better. I think we can get away with this because it's not worth creating a S- rank, and there's only two Pokemon currently in S-Rank.
A+ -> A: It's still the powerhouse it is, but due to the high popularity on BS, practically every team has at least one check or counter to it, if not two. I feel that a drop is needed to represent the fact that it's still a massive threat, but not as effective anymore.
A -> A-: In a word, overhyped. Not too much, but it is. While still worthy of a ranking in the A's by far, and would probably be one of the better A- 'mons, it's really crippled by burns and paralysis, is weak to a typing that's on almost every team in Psychic, and is prone strong attacks + double-targeting, as it relies on Leech Seed and Giga Drain for recovery.
A- -> A/A+: How is this thing so low-rated? I recognize that it's weak to the common Ice- and Steel- type moves, but it's easily one of the best redirectors, with the ability to go offensive, defensive, or a mix between the two, good supporting moves in Thunder Wave, Tailwind, and Air Slash, and great offensive STAB typing. It can fit on a multitude of teams, all of which would appreciate its abilities.
: What's the reasoning behind this ranking? I'm 100% unfamiliar with Chandelure, and I'm not going to argue it's placement until I know something about it. I just want to know why it's ranked where it is.
: Not going to recommend any change, but just saying that I believe that since Politoed is practically synonymous with rain teams, that Politoed should represent the ranking of the entire Rain archetype, as it will be present in 99.99% of all Rain teams/archetypes.
: ...why is this ranked? what does it do that Rhyperior doesn't? Does it survive anything with Eviolite that Rhyp can't?
B- -> B+: Prankster Tailwind, Encore, and Taunt, plus access to Beat Up for the TerraCott combo and Memento for an immediate advantage when it's job is done, lets it fit in a lot of Speed Control teams. There's a reason why it's so popular. It's certainly not A material, but also certainly not B- material.
B- -> B/B+: extremely fast Rock Slide, fast Taunt, access to Wide Guard and Tailwind, and the unique support STAB Sky Drop makes it a great supporting attacker. It's biggest downfall is it's frailty, and the fact it really wants Focus Sash. Enough to make it raise a ranking or two IMO.
C+ -> somewhere in B: With Water being so commonplace and so many high-tiered Pokemon not really enjoying it, Storm Drain is a great supportive ability. It seems to be a supportive attacker to me - bulky, doing too much damage to be called chip yet to little damage to call it an offensive threat. It also has access to Recover, so it can afford to forgo items like Leftovers and Sitrus Berry for more offensive choices like Expert Belt. Certainly not C worthy.
C+ -> B/B+: I'm sorry, but I just don't see why this is so low on the rankings. While Fighting Gem was a great asset to it, it was more luxury than anything else. In my opinion, it's big claim to fame is its supporting-attacker abilities. It has access to Fake Out, Wide guard, Quick Guard, Feint, Intimidate, and a Close Combat that's still strong without Fighting Gem. Its defenses aren't horrible, either, with high Special Defense and Intimidate. I agree it hates Status, that its defenses aren't stellar, and that it doesn't like going against anything that resists fighting STAB.
D -> C/C+: Hear me out. Yes, it falls over to any hit. Yes, 89 base speed isn't the best. However, it's the only Pokemon with access to Tailwind and Sleep Powder (which is effectively a Spore), as well as the only sleeper that can hit Grass-types super-effectively, and actually hit it hard due to the ability to spam Hurricane. It's also one of the fastest Sleepers in the tier, outsped only by Pokemon with the unreliable Sleep Powder, making it the fastest reliable sweeper. No higher than C+, but not D material.
I know I didn't explain everything in too much detail, but I didn't really have that much time to spare. I could elaborate on a nomination later if someone wants me to.
I also recommend that Landog is moved below M-Kang, to show that M-Kang is better. I think we can get away with this because it's not worth creating a S- rank, and there's only two Pokemon currently in S-Rank.
I know I didn't explain everything in too much detail, but I didn't really have that much time to spare. I could elaborate on a nomination later if someone wants me to.
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tbh, Swampy is the same story, but doesn't have Storm Drain in exchange for better physical bulk/mixed offense.
LO Gastrodon could be funny; I'm playing with a LO Muddy Water Swampy and its actually rather fun. Offensive Gastrodon in TR or a Storm Drain boost (which can also be provided by allies, btw) could be hilariously heavy hitting.
Obviously, it's stil riddled with flaws, but it'd definetly beef up Gastrodon's puny damage output. :P
Rhyperior and Rhydon tank SE hits almost equally as well on the physical side; Rhyperior having the advantage on the Special side, but only with an AssVest. Rhydon tanks neutral/resisted physical hits like Chansey tanks unSTAB'd Ice Beams.: ...why is this ranked? what does it do that Rhyperior doesn't? Does it survive anything with Eviolite that Rhyp can't?
Rhydon has Lightningrod; Rhyperior loses this to Solid Rock. This alone is reason to use Rhydon over Rhyperior. Fuck Thundurus.
Also, Rhydon's Eviolite does not prevent Status moves, like Rhyperior's AssVest does, allowing it to use Protect; which is monumental when you consider it attracts WoW and SE moves very well.
What does it survive that Rhyperior doesn't? If we're talking AssVest Rhyperior, then it survives nothing that AssVest Rhyperior does not. If we're talking about LO/CB Rhyperior, well... things like Hyper Voice and Draco Meteor hitting an unboosted 55 Sp. Def hurts. A lot.
tl;dr very similar, it really just depends on "Do I want Lightningrod, or a tad more Atk/Sp. def with AV Rhyperior, or much more power with LO/CB Rhyperior?".
actually, rhyperior has lightningrod too. the two are ranked together because they're basically different sets for the same pokemon, like clefairy and clefable, and tyranitar and mega tyranitar. the difference between the two is that rhydon gets better special defense without having to resort to assault vest, which means you give up protect and still get sniped by water and grass.
e: also, swampert has a more general use with wide guard wheras gastrodon is more niche. im pretty sure swampert has better defenses than gastro too, which lets it run more offense and expert belt.
e: also, swampert has a more general use with wide guard wheras gastrodon is more niche. im pretty sure swampert has better defenses than gastro too, which lets it run more offense and expert belt.
I do have to admit that if something snarls it, gastrodon is pretty useless, because it will only sit and do chip damage. However, if it gets the right mathcups it can tank hits and dish out solid amuonts of damage. I still think it could be B-, but yes, I do also see why it is C+.
Sorry but I don't necessarily agree with this. A major thing that Zapdos has over Bulky Thundurus is that it has access to recovery AKA Roost. This increases Zapdos's longevity as well as allowing it to run other items such as Rocky Helmet/Safety GogglesA -> B+: This thing is just a worse bulky Thundurus with access to Tailwind. I know that Tailwind is great, and I recognize that it's a great niche, but it's literally its only niche over bulky Thundurus, besides Heat Wave. I feel like a B+ ranking represents this.
Right, completely forgot about roost. My bad -_-
Desuzakiddo
VGCPL Champion
It also has access to Tailwind, cool thing that thundurus doesn't have
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Im not sure if Mega Scizor deserves B+ rank. I mean, its pretty cool, but im not sure if the extra bulk is worth eating up mega slot. Not to mention LO Scizor hits harder than it, and you can still use mega in your team:
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sylveon: 205-244 (101.4 - 120.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sylveon: 176-210 (87.1 - 103.9%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
Normal Scizor can also held other items like Lum or Band. Most notably, Mega eats up mega slot, which can be really crucial. Normal Scizor is good, and so is Mega Scizor, just probably not as good. I think its very similar case to Blaziken: typically non-mega is better and mega should be typically only used if you dont have one already. I suggest it dropping to B or even B-.
Mega Glalie to E: What the heck this thing does? Refrigerate Explosion? I know, its hilarous, and can be really fun (possibly one of the strongest attacks in the history), but congratulations, you lost your mega. Not just that, it forces your partner to protect. Its also extremely predictable, so if opponent switch something like Heatran or Lapras in, and protects with partner, or double protect, you just threw your mega totally away. Other than Refrigerate Explosion, it cant do much. Its stats are not very impressive, despite its mega. 120 Atk is pretty bad for offensive mega, even if it gets Refrigerate. Pure Ice-typing is also absolutely terrible, having 1 resist and lots of weakness. 80/80/80 bulk is just not good, either. Its movepool is garbage, too. It has NO potent special move to abuse Refrigerate. It has Return, but why you would use that, when you could just users of -ate-ability Returns, like Mega Mence, or even Mega Altaria. It does get EQ, but its darn weak from that Atk. It gets Freeze-dry, but its not gonna hit very hard unless the target is Ludicolo/Swampert, and it forces you to run mixed set. It gets Ice Shard, well its priority, can be helpful...And there ends this thing's movepool.
Conclusion: It can be hilarous for those who likes to go BOOOM, but in serious play, i would never use it. Its just gimmick, and really, it should not be D rank.
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sylveon: 205-244 (101.4 - 120.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sylveon: 176-210 (87.1 - 103.9%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
Normal Scizor can also held other items like Lum or Band. Most notably, Mega eats up mega slot, which can be really crucial. Normal Scizor is good, and so is Mega Scizor, just probably not as good. I think its very similar case to Blaziken: typically non-mega is better and mega should be typically only used if you dont have one already. I suggest it dropping to B or even B-.
Mega Glalie to E: What the heck this thing does? Refrigerate Explosion? I know, its hilarous, and can be really fun (possibly one of the strongest attacks in the history), but congratulations, you lost your mega. Not just that, it forces your partner to protect. Its also extremely predictable, so if opponent switch something like Heatran or Lapras in, and protects with partner, or double protect, you just threw your mega totally away. Other than Refrigerate Explosion, it cant do much. Its stats are not very impressive, despite its mega. 120 Atk is pretty bad for offensive mega, even if it gets Refrigerate. Pure Ice-typing is also absolutely terrible, having 1 resist and lots of weakness. 80/80/80 bulk is just not good, either. Its movepool is garbage, too. It has NO potent special move to abuse Refrigerate. It has Return, but why you would use that, when you could just users of -ate-ability Returns, like Mega Mence, or even Mega Altaria. It does get EQ, but its darn weak from that Atk. It gets Freeze-dry, but its not gonna hit very hard unless the target is Ludicolo/Swampert, and it forces you to run mixed set. It gets Ice Shard, well its priority, can be helpful...And there ends this thing's movepool.
Conclusion: It can be hilarous for those who likes to go BOOOM, but in serious play, i would never use it. Its just gimmick, and really, it should not be D rank.
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For sylveon...i completely disagree with your opinion. Needing mons to check/counter it is actually more of a a motive to raise a mon rather than lowering it down. Otherwise Kangaskhan/Landorus-T will decrease because every team runs a check/counter for it. Having a mon on your team for Sylveon means it exerts enough offensive presence to destroy entire teams with Specs Hyper Voice if not prepared for it. Completely worth A+ rankOkay. You know how I said that I thought the tierlist was fine as it was? I lied. It's stable, but there are some things that I want to address.
I also recommend that Landog is moved below M-Kang, to show that M-Kang is better. I think we can get away with this because it's not worth creating a S- rank, and there's only two Pokemon currently in S-Rank.
A+ -> A: It's still the powerhouse it is, but due to the high popularity on BS, practically every team has at least one check or counter to it, if not two. I feel that a drop is needed to represent the fact that it's still a massive threat, but not as effective anymore.
A- -> A/A+: How is this thing so low-rated? I recognize that it's weak to the common Ice- and Steel- type moves, but it's easily one of the best redirectors, with the ability to go offensive, defensive, or a mix between the two, good supporting moves in Thunder Wave, Tailwind, and Air Slash, and great offensive STAB typing. It can fit on a multitude of teams, all of which would appreciate its abilities.
: What's the reasoning behind this ranking? I'm 100% unfamiliar with Chandelure, and I'm not going to argue it's placement until I know something about it. I just want to know why it's ranked where it is.
C+ -> B/B+: I'm sorry, but I just don't see why this is so low on the rankings. While Fighting Gem was a great asset to it, it was more luxury than anything else. In my opinion, it's big claim to fame is its supporting-attacker abilities. It has access to Fake Out, Wide guard, Quick Guard, Feint, Intimidate, and a Close Combat that's still strong without Fighting Gem. Its defenses aren't horrible, either, with high Special Defense and Intimidate. I agree it hates Status, that its defenses aren't stellar, and that it doesn't like going against anything that resists fighting STAB.
I completely agree with togekiss....besides one thing. Togekiss' Follow Me/Tailwind/Offensive Move/Support Move set lacks offense, unlike other Tailwind Users (Zapdos, Suicune, etc). Kinda slow and with a relatively bad defensive typing, i dunno if it's worth A+. A fits it perfectly imo, as it supports other A ranked mons quite easily.
Chandy has TR, and can hit Sharp. Hard. It is also one of the few TR users that can handle Amoonguss. Definitely what you should use when looking for an offensive TR setter. Not to mention the gimmicky minimize+CM set chandy has (paired with audino).
I've used Hitmontop, and besides losing Fighting Gem, it lost something that i think it was even more important for Hitmontop than the fighting gem: Sucker Punch. Hitmontop doesn't have good ways to hit ghost types, specially Aegislash, and having to share its EVs with HP, Attack, Defense and Sp.Def you just can't make Hitmontop as viable as it was before. The fairy types nerfed him, as well as all fighting types, so it isn't that efficient. Not being able to touch a lot of the current metagame, and having a serious 4MSS, i think C+/B- is where it should stay.
Also, M-Kang is below Landoge just because the alphabetic order (lol)
Dividing S rank into S and S- doesnt actually sound that bad. Earlier, my opinion was actually to drop Kanga to A+, however, i disagree these days. Both Kanga and Landorus-T are S rank material imo. However, Landorus isnt imo as good as Kanga, so dropping it into S- doesnt sound that bad imo. What about that?
Eh I don't really think we need an s- rank considering there wouldn't be a lot of pokemon in the s rank anyways unlike the other ranks so it'll just be a waste.
- Status