Would we want a Stealth Rock suspect test? [Read #196]

[Jukain]

Nobody wants to see Moltres or Yanmega in OU because they like them. They want them there because that's where they deserve to be.

Ignoring the rest of your post, I just want to say something about this point. Pokemon don't "deserve" to be in any tier. Pokemon have no "right" to be in a specific tier. They have to prove their strength and ability to be there. This is fundamental to tiering, as otherwise we would move Pokemon among the tiers on subjective whims. Your first statement is blatantly untrue. In fact, I doubt either would be OU even.

Addressing this thread as a whole, I believe that Stealth Rock is at this point an important part of the metagame. It serves to neuter some threats and bolster others. The two balance out. It's not like both sides don't have access to Stealth Rock and methods to remove it.

 

[Curtains]

I am just stunned that people actually think that Stealth Rock is the most centralizing aspect of the metagame. How about teams that have to pack 3-4 water resist because water types are just running rampant with boosted water attacks? Two threads and dozens of post I have still not seen a good reason to even have it suspected or banned. You forget that this is smogon... Not youtube. The object of smogon is to create the most competitive metagame.... Not to cater to players wanting to see their favorite pokemon in OU. Besides, """smogon""" technically doesn't decide what is OU or not.... You do.... The same people that bitch and moan about moltres being fuckteenth hundredth place in usage still use the same pokemon that everyone else does... Like volcarona.... You guys say pokemon like yanmega and moltres are good without SR but refuse to put it on your team with support like you do with those powerful sun teams and volcarona. So what you have to use a spinner/bouncer.....tough shit.. this is competitive gaming for you. You don't get what you want all the time.

SR creates an environment that supports purposeful switching and critical endgame calculations. Who wants a metagame that is just entirely offensive with mindless switching and abuse of dozens of flying sweepers? No one. Im not a big ADV player but I do know that alot of shit runs HP rock for flying types. This is because flying types are very powerful... They usually have dual typing that cancels out their weaknesses. They resist the most powerful unboosted attacks like close combat and earthquake along with the resistances of their secondary typing. Gamefreak knew this.... so they created this great thing called Stealth Rock for us. SR makes those flying types more of a defensive liability on the switch to compensate for their superior offense and natural defensive resistances. SR is a great counter for power creep. Pokemon got new abilities , new moves, and better partners. SR basically keeps this power creep contained so that pokemon like gastrodon and ammongus are viable in OU.... SR shouldn't be suspected at all. It is perfectly healthy and natural for the metagame. It gives way more pokemon a chance than the pro ban side can come up with. Pokemon like claydol and bronzong have an actual reason to be used. Other weak pokemon have a chance to damage something if the opponent gets wreckless with switching. I doubt moltres and friends will be used after the gimmick of it not having a SR weakness is gone.

1000th post

 

[shilly]

suspect testing SR is honestly a really dangerous concept if you put it into perspective: several metagames, ESPECIALLY ou, would get messed up beyond belief and repair. SR is a crucial part of competitively play and if you end up banning it entirely it takes out the feeling of threat and apprehension when building teams.

 

[George Eliot]

Lavos called it :/ Smash, we actually do want balance, diversity, etc. If you can understand that, that seems to answer all your objections. We believe things can be improved, basically.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Lavos called it :/ Smash, we actually do want balance, diversity, etc. If you can understand that, that seems to answer all your objections. We believe things can be improved, basically.

Everyone wants that. But thats not how it works. We are not going to go out of our ways to help low tier stuff into ou just because. Rapid Spin and Magic Bounce are though to have but if you really want to run rock weak mons thats what you need to use. If you want to run something you need to patch up its weakness. Theres no urge to improve anything. If something is not viable in a tier then its not viable. If something is viable but requires significant amount of support then you either provide that support or you dont.

 

[MatchMaster]

Just here to put my two cents into the discussion. You all are saying the games discriminates against rock-weak stuff, when Ho-Oh is fairly dominant in ubers as a defensive and offensive threat alike, and flying-types in general are said to have good offensive typings. True, Dragonite becomes a poor Salamence with SR always up, but the flying typing gives you immunity to both forms of spikes, earthquake, and an invaluable resistance to fighting-type moves.

 

[Lady Alex]

Everyone wants that. But thats not how it works. We are not going to go out of our ways to help low tier stuff into ou just because. Rapid Spin and Magic Bounce are though to have but if you really want to run rock weak mons thats what you need to use. If you want to run something you need to patch up its weakness. Theres no urge to improve anything. If something is not viable in a tier then its not viable. If something is viable but requires significant amount of support then you either provide that support or you dont.

If this is your perception of what the Pro-Suspect side's stance is, I recommend that you read through the original entry hazard thread and even this thread.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

If this is your perception of what the Pro-Suspect side's stance is, I recommend that you read through the original entry hazard thread and even this thread.

No, the pro-suspect stance about improving diversity is pretty much that. Helping low tier pokemon becoming more viable in ou by removing one of their main problems. I did not said that was their entire argument.

 

[dt~]

I have no opinion on whether Rocks are broken or not, but suspecting Stealth Rock at this point could be both very interesting and potentially disastrous if we decide to ban it.

When we suspect and eventually ban a Pokémon, we're impacting the metagame in small waves - its counters decrease in usage while other Pokémon gain more viability; it's somewhat predictable because it's a small change. With the near-100% usage of Stealth Rock, if we eventually banned it we would be impacting the metagame in a much more fundamental way. New Pokémon, abilities and items would need reevaluation and the usage percentages would go wild. I'm not sure, with the upcoming Generation, if that's the route we want to take, turning BW2 into an unpredictable metagame needing more suspect tests while we transition to XY and lose hopes of ever balancing it out.

 

[Shiruba]

can i just say that suspecting itself means nothing? if the majority of the voters end up deciding that it is better to keep stealth rock, then it's kept and no harm is done either way. if the meta really is better etc with stealth rock, then the voting process will likely reflect this and the move will remain allowed. simple. nothing to fear if the voters agree with your sentiments, and the voters are the people that show exceptional skill in the metagame.

there seems to be about 50% in support of at least a suspect test, with another 12.5% or so more or less sitting on the fence. is that enough?

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

can i just say that suspecting itself means nothing? if the majority of the voters end up deciding that it is better to keep stealth rock, then it's kept and no harm is done either way. if the meta really is better etc with stealth rock, then the voting process will likely reflect this and the move will remain allowed. simple. nothing to fear if the voters agree with your sentiments, and the voters are the people that show exceptional skill in the metagame.

there seems to be about 50% in support of at least a suspect test, with another 12.5% or so more or less sitting on the fence. is that enough?

Because in the case sr does get banned we wont have time to contain the metagame changes. Thats why it shouldnt be suspected.

 

[Shiruba]

if the suspect voters agree with your sentiments, i'm sure they'd vote to keep it in play. those people aren't stupid by any means - like i said, they're top battlers. they know what they're doing, easily more than i and probably more than you do. i trust them, and i'd recommend that you do it, too.

 

[Lady Alex]

Because in the case sr does get banned we wont have time to contain the metagame changes. Thats why it shouldnt be suspected.

This has been addressed multiple times in this thread and the previous. If voters agree with that sentiment, we will vote accordingly. If we disagree and find that it's broken and should be banned because we don't find time to be an issue, we'll vote for it to be banned. If you want to ensure that your opinion is the majority, make requirements and vote.

 

[Curtains]

This has been addressed multiple times in this thread and the previous. If voters agree with that sentiment, we will vote accordingly. If we disagree and find that it's broken and should be banned because we don't find time to be an issue, we'll vote for it to be banned. If you want to ensure that your opinion is the majority, make requirements and vote.

You really haven't added anything to the discussion. Looking at your previous post all you say is "this has been addressed" or "look at the thread" or some other sarcastic remarks. You haven't really said anything on why SR should be banned. You just half ass reply to other post you don't agree with without giving any reason on your stance. This is a common theme among pro-ban users.... You disregard the main point of SR being an integral competitive part of the game and just go along with the atrocious stance of "lets just ban it without thinking about the consequences,i dont like it, its broken.. the end". Thinking about the future is important. But, I don't think SR is gonna be suspected anyway because of the lack of support from the council or any outstanding veteran battlers of note.

 

[Lady Alex]

Because a lot of what people have recently been bringing up has already been discussed to death. The only thing I care to discuss in this thread is the practicality of the ban, which is an issue that wasn't heavily focused on in the previous thread. If people are going to discuss things that have already been talked about, there's no need to rehash the same conversation. If people bring up points regarding whether or not Stealth Rock is worthy of a suspect test that haven't already been talked about, I'll happily address those if they come about. My biggest concern in this thread is the group that feels whether or not it's suspect-worthy is irrelevant and thinks that it shouldn't be suspected based on time or practicality.

 

[Lavos]

But, I don't think SR is gonna be suspected anyway because of the lack of support from the council or any outstanding veteran battlers of note.

yeah undisputed bkc heist and me are all pretty unknown people right (theres more but i forget)

theres like 1 'good' reason not to do a test and it's about it being a waste of time when we should be suspecting drizzle instead

 

[Curtains]

Because a lot of what people have recently been bringing up has already been discussed to death. The only thing I care to discuss in this thread is the practicality of the ban, which is an issue that wasn't heavily focused on in the previous thread. If people are going to discuss things that have already been talked about, there's no need to rehash the same conversation. If people bring up points regarding whether or not Stealth Rock is worthy of a suspect test that haven't already been talked about, I'll happily address those if they come about. My biggest concern in this thread is the group that feels whether or not it's suspect-worthy is irrelevant and thinks that it shouldn't be suspected based on time or practicality.

Well practicality is a big deal with SR. The impact that it being gone will change pretty much every analysis and change the mindset of certain calculations. Why do we want to do this? So we can theoretically make people want to use SR weak pokemon? That is not a good reason at all to destroy that balance. And.... really that is the only reason that has been brought up to my attention from the pro ban side. That is mostly all that you see in this thread from the pro-ban side. If you want me to point out the post I can. We need a really good solid synopsis of why SR is broken and uncompetitive. Which hasnt been seen in this or any other thread. The poll explains that clearly.

yeah undisputed bkc heist and me are all pretty unknown people right (theres more but i forget)

theres like 1 'good' reason not to do a test and it's about it being a waste of time when we should be suspecting drizzle instead

no disrespect but I would respect more the opinion of someone like kevin garrett or bloo. big difference.

are you fkn kidding me lol

i beat kg does that count

count for what? hes way ahead of you regardless.

 

[Lavos]

are you fkn kidding me lol

i beat kg does that count

 

[MikeDawg]

I may be new here, but I have lurked for quite some time, and while there may be more decorated players (bloo, kevin, etc.), Lavos has been incredibly involved and has, as a result of this, become incredibly experienced in BW OU (I'm not sure if the two you mentioned, Curtains, even really participate in OU to a great extent, though that may just be ignorance due to my lack of time here). As such, his opinion is one of the most valuable (alongside BKC, etc.), and browsing through the thread, I don't believe I saw almost any council input regarding either standpoint.

 

[George Eliot]

Lol Curtains. Keep digging that hole.

I completely agree with Lavos. A suspect test would be good. However, the issue that has to be decided is whether it's worth testing SR now, given that the meta will lose the majority of its players in a few months. I'm happy not to see one in 5th gen, and focus on Drizzle / Lando etc instead, if we get some recognition from the Council that a significant proportion of the community wants this, and thus that they'll address it early in 6th gen.

 

[Anthiese]

Time to tip the scales!

No really. My main thing on this is that I feel SR makes or breaks a lot in this meta. Although it can be stopped, it's still overly common. It has to be one of the most breaking things to the meta. But i still wanna vouch for it being easy to stop.

I'd be fine with a suspect. It will really prove how broken SR has gotten to be. I mean like everyone and it's mom learns it. And it kinda makes rock weak pokes it's bitch. I see more sweep success on non sr teams i have vs teams with sr. So it's obviously doing something.

 

[Halcyon.]

If the council says they are completely against suspecting Drizzle/Drought, then I would probably rather suspect SR over Landorus, which I don't think is broken at all. AT least if we suspected SR, we would be able to test out the fucking insane meta that would be the suspect ladder. At the same time, I would really rather suspect weather, and I don't think that even if we suspected SR that it should be banned, since I do think time in an important factor to consider. That being said, if a weather-test isn't going to happen, then I guess...why not?

 

[Lavos]

If the council says they are completely against suspecting Drizzle/Drought

they arent...i'm not gonna name names but it's like 2 in favor 2 against 1 on the fence

 

[Nathaniel Br]

Stealth Rock should die

Stealth rock the most irritating entry hazards in existence. Reducing otherwise great pokemon such as Solar Power Charizard to NU status, ensuring Volcorona needs to be used alongside rapid spin. The greatest problem with Stealth Rock is the fact is disadvantages certain types, if your Ice, Bug, Fire or Flying enjoy low usage, it means almost every team needs Rapid Spin support and that every team needs Stealth Rock which only makes the problem worse. I've never been anti-hazard just anti-type discrimination. It is also in part to blame for rains dominance. Sun teams always need rapid spin, while rain teams can get away without it. And as soon as the Sun's spinner is down a Sun team is at a serious disadvantage, that and rains super-effectiveness over both most sand and sun teams have caused rains prevalence.

 

[Honus]

Well practicality is a big deal with SR. The impact that it being gone will change pretty much every analysis and change the mindset of certain calculations. Why do we want to do this? So we can theoretically make people want to use SR weak pokemon? That is not a good reason at all to destroy that balance. And.... really that is the only reason that has been brought up to my attention from the pro ban side. That is mostly all that you see in this thread from the pro-ban side. If you want me to point out the post I can. We need a really good solid synopsis of why SR is broken and uncompetitive. Which hasnt been seen in this or any other thread. The poll explains that clearly.



no disrespect but I would respect more the opinion of someone like kevin garrett or bloo. big difference.



count for what? hes way ahead of you regardless.

Curtains I honestly can't tell if you're just trying to be cool on the internet but why are you making these posts lol. I'm averse to a SR suspect test also, but you can at least respect the other opinion rather than going off on a ridiculous tangent when making an argument doesn't work. At least respect the other side instead of making posts like these:

You disregard the main point of SR being an integral competitive part of the game and just go along with the atrocious stance of "lets just ban it without thinking about the consequences,i dont like it, its broken.. the end".

I'm pretty sure Lady Alex never implied that and you're just making a generalization about the other side of the SR Test argument. And a move really isn't an "integral part of the game" in the same way that Pokemon types or held items are, or at least it shouldn't be Also you have to be kidding with the "I'd rather have Bloo or KG speak" than Undisputed, BKC, Heist [etc], I don't really get the logic to that argument unless you're basing it off the fact that they are/were staff members at the forum? I'm pretty sure that Lavos's list of players are as good as Bloo or KG are and their opinion probably would be as worthy as Bloo or KG's but then again there you go with ridiculous responses. Kinda find it hard that you're serious here...

Also to contribute something to this thread, I'm personally against SR testing this late into the metagame [XY in 4~ months], I'm aware that's not a great reason but you're significantly altering a meta that's basically at its end which I just don't see as logical, plus I feel we have more important things to worry about in BW2 OU like pokemon that can 2hko every switchin aka Landorus but I'll be fine with an SR test I guess.