Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)

[lred123]

The set you just described is walled so hard by the pink blobs, forcing you out with that 50% you just lost from stealth rock leaving you easily revenge killed if you don't get rid of them.

Pretty much every special attackers are walled by the blobs not just charizard y. Defog support and rapid spinners are easier to fit on a team then they ever were before

 

[Shadow2684]

The set you just described is walled so hard by the pink blobs, forcing you out with that 50% you just lost from stealth rock leaving you easily revenge killed if you don't get rid of them.

Walled by pink blobs, and why should it matter? It's not like you can switch in to 5 other team mates to cripple the blobs. Everyone that attacks Specially is walled by blobs unless it runs moves like psyshock. Zard Y lost 50% of his health when he switches back in? It shouldn't matter because once he's back in it should be vs a slow pokemon Zard Y can handle.

 

[Baharoth]

I like this argument and if they were both judged as the same pokemon, I would totally agree to them both being S-Rank but their not. Their seperate on this rank and should be judged as such until it's changed. I'm don't believe one pokemon should be placed on a Rank just because of another but still be judged as it's own pokemon. If that were the case there would be plenty of different cores that can make it to S-Rank.

Even if they are ranked individually, the uncertainty they bring with them is an inherent fact and has to be considered when judging them.

 

[KurashiDragon]

Y-zard will always and forever be walled by the blobs. Same with most special attackers.

And as I said earlier, Pinsir will always be walled by Skarmory. There's not really a way around it. At least Y-zard could pontentially be X-zard and they might not switch a blob in on turn one.

Pretty much every special attackers are walled by the blobs not just charizard y. Defog support and rapid spinners are easier to fit on a team then they ever were before

Walled by pink blobs, and why should it matter? It's not like you can switch in to 5 other team mates to cripple the blobs. Everyone that attacks Specially is walled by blobs unless it runs moves like psyshock. Zard Y lost 50% of his health when he switches back in? It shouldn't matter because once he's back in it should be vs a slow pokemon Zard Y can handle.

Spooky and lred, your both right. Pretty much every Special Attacker can be walled hard by the Blobs but that not an argument in Zard-Ys favor. It just means the blobs are great pokemon to wall Special attackers with. They still wall this set hard and until a time when their banned (lolz no) They still need to be dealt with by means of team support. Same as Stealth Rock. lred and Shadow as you both said, It requires Team Support to be able to function. That's my argument.

Even if they are ranked individually, the uncertainty they bring with them is an inherent fact and has to be considered when judging them.

Has that been confirmed? If it has, I'll bow out gracefully but until I see something like that, I'll judge them independently of each other.

 

[Salt]

I like this argument and if they were both judged as the same pokemon, I would totally agree to them both being S-Rank but their not. Their seperate on this rank and should be judged as such until it's changed. I'm don't believe one pokemon should be placed on a Rank just because of another but still be judged as it's own pokemon. If that were the case there would be plenty of different cores that can make it to S-Rank.

Charizard X/Y isn't a "core" in the sense that, for example, Talonflame/Staraptor is. Charizard is one Pokemon with access to two Mega Evolutions. Those Mega Evolutions are completely different in terms of counters, and (arguably) equally viable choices. Like I said before, I want Charizard to be S-rank because of this. Not Mega Charizard X, not Mega Charizard Y, Charizard. I see where you're coming from and would, likewise, agree with you if Charizard didn't have access to this unparalleled kind of power, or if it showed you what forme you're dealing with before the battle starts.

 

[KurashiDragon]

Charizard X/Y isn't a "core" in the sense that, for example, Talonflame/Staraptor is. Charizard is one Pokemon with access to two Mega Evolutions. Those Mega Evolutions are completely different in terms of counters, and (arguably) equally viable choices. Like I said before, I want Charizard to be S-rank because of this. Not Mega Charizard X, not Mega Charizard Y, Charizard. I see where you're coming from and would, likewise, agree with you if Charizard didn't have access to this unparalleled kind of power, or if it showed you what forme you're dealing with before the battle starts.

I agree. I do want Charizard itself to be S-rank simply because it has access to 2 mega evolutions but their both put seperatly on the board which is why I'm judging Zard-Y independent of Zard-X.

 

[Baharoth]

Honestly we are talking about 3!!! pokemon here that are able to wall ZardY, considering that it simply walks over almost everything else without any setup thats hardly a reason to demote him. The only real drawback he has is his SR weakness but Pinsir and ZardX have more or less the same problem and with so many strong defog and rapid spin users around its realy not that much of a bother.

Beeing S Rank doesnt mean that u have to be able to trash the whole meta without any support, stuff like that gets banned. It means sweeping most of it with little support and thats easily true for ZardY especialy because he has the option to start off as a lead, something ZardX and Pinsir cant do.

 

[Shadow2684]

Spooky and lred, your both right. Pretty much every Special Attacker can be walled hard by the Blobs but that not an argument in Zard-Ys favor. It just means the blobs are great pokemon to wall Special attackers with. They still wall this set hard and until a time when their banned (lolz no) They still need to be dealt with by means of team support. Same as Stealth Rock. lred and Shadow as you both said, It requires Team Support to be able to function. That's my argument..

Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns").
If having support from team mates is "too much support for S rank" then let's take out every pokemon in S rank and drop them down to A rank. Mega Pinsir is walled by Skarmory hard, let's switch to a team mate to handle him (he's now not an S rank). Mega Kangaskhan is walled by Sableye HARD let's unban him because he needs to switch to a team mate. Mega Venusaur can't wall Zard Y effectively so it switches to Goodra, Mega Venusaur shouldn't be S rank. Having support from team mates to kill your counters counts as "little support" and should Zard Y be put down because he needs support from team mates? No.

 

[Salt]

I agree. I do want Charizard itself to be S-rank simply because it has access to 2 mega evolutions but their both put seperatly on the board which is why I'm judging Zard-Y independent of Zard-X.

I've been advocating that they should not judged separately because, even though they are widely different, they start the battle as the same Pokemon. No other Pokemon (bar the Uber Mewtwo) has two Mega Evolutions, so this is a unique scenario in OU. Judging Zard-Y independently of Zard-X does make sense in the current way that the rankings are set up, but I argue that the setup needs to be changed at least for Charizard. The pre-mega unpredictability is a huge part of the success and judging them independently completely ignores that, regardless of what is said.

 

[lred123]

Spooky and lred, your both right. Pretty much every Special Attacker can be walled hard by the Blobs but that not an argument in Zard-Ys favor. It just means the blobs are great pokemon to wall Special attackers with. They still wall this set hard and until a time when their banned (lolz no) They still need to be dealt with by means of team support. Same as Stealth Rock. lred and Shadow as you both said, It requires Team Support to be able to function. That's my argument.



Has that been confirmed? If it has, I'll bow out gracefully but until I see something like that, I'll judge them independently of each other.

Every non ban worthy threat needs team support that is why they are ou if a poke did not need support it would be uber. As i said before defog and spinner support is easier to get than ever before.

 

[rachet67]

Your right, however, neither M-Pinser or Zard-X's Stealth Rock weakness are nearly as crippling as Zard-y. Pinser and Zard-x are mainly set up sweepers so they really only need to come in once and set up so there isn't as much pressure on them with their SR problems. They also only take 25% (pinser before he mega evolves) so it's harder to revenge kill them than Zard-Y who takes 50%. Zard-Y also has to pick its checks and counters because of what I believe to be a 4MSS so depending on your opponent's pokemon you can be forced out and if stealth rock wasn't off the field, it's already taken 50% of it's health which means it can only come in once more unless you have roost in which case you have even more checks and counters without Dragon Pulse. It requires team support to get past stealth rock and it's checks and counters in a way that the other S-Ranks don't need. It's just not S Rank IMO. I do think that it's so strong that it's clearly an A+ Rank but it just requires to much team support to be S Rank.

Its really not that hard to clear hazards and keep them gone with defog running rampant, and less dedicated spin blockers.

37 | Blissey | 4.82726% | 301935 | 5.319% | 230572 | 5.100%
68 | Chansey | 2.59036% | 128410 | 2.262% | 100722 | 2.228% |

Only 4.8% of teams run blissey and only 2.6% of teams run chansey. So basically, Charzard Y only has to worry about Pink Blobs 7.4% of all matches.

Also, if Charzard-Y, as a wall breaker, could break through every dedicated special wall in the metagame, it would've been banned in an instant.

 

[KurashiDragon]

Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns").
If having support from team mates is "too much support for S rank" then let's take out every pokemon in S rank and drop them down to A rank. Mega Pinsir is walled by Skarmory hard, let's switch to a team mate to handle him (he's now not an S rank). Mega Kangaskhan is walled by Sableye HARD let's unban him because he needs to switch to a team mate. Mega Venusaur can't wall Zard Y effectively so it switches to Goodra, Mega Venusaur shouldn't be S rank. Having support from team mates to kill your counters counts as "little support" and should Zard Y be put down because he needs support from team mates? No.

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently. Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time.

I'm not saying every S-Rank pokemon should require little to no support to be able to properly sweep through a team. If that were the case, no pokemon would be S-Rank. I'm saying that Zard-Y requires to much support to be S-Rank. Between the Stealth Rock weakness being much larger than either Zard-x or Pinser (before it mega evolves) and it's forced to choose it checks and counters, it requires more team support than any other S-Rank pokemon. Because of this, I believe it's solidly A+ Rank.

I'm getting really tired of saying the exact same thing over and over. I understand the arguments you guys are making. It can punch holes through almost anything and absolutely destroy the metagame if left unchecked. But alot of pokemon can do that. Kyurem-B, Thundurus, Dragonite are a few examples and their A rank (Kyrumen-B, and Thundurus are A+ Rank while Dragonite is A rank. I disagree with Dragonite being A Rank but I still haven't come up with an argument for it being A+ Rank.) The thing keeping them from S Rank is team support just like Zard-Y. Zard-Y requires to much support to be S-rank. It's just that simple.

 

[lred123]

Its really not that hard to clear hazards and keep them gone with defog running rampant, and less dedicated spin blockers.

37 | Blissey | 4.82726% | 301935 | 5.319% | 230572 | 5.100%
68 | Chansey | 2.59036% | 128410 | 2.262% | 100722 | 2.228% |

Only 4.8% of teams run blissey and only 2.6% of teams run chansey. So basically, Charzard Y only has to worry about Pink Blobs 7.4% of all matches.

exactly also wow chansey getting less usage than blissey must be from increased knock off usage

 

[rachet67]

exactly also wow chansey getting less usage than blissey must be from increased knock off usage

Which is dumb because Blissey doesn't like taking anything from any mon with knock off anyways. But thats off topic (not A+/S).

 

[Monte Cristo]

Mega Charizard Y -> A rank
Other people have already explained their reasons for this and not much more needs to be said. It needs too much support and has a decent amount of checks/counters that cause it to not warrant S rank.

Garchomp-mega ---> Dump it to Lower than A+

Ok, no, just no.

Now don't get me wrong, these bring up semi-decent points but, I'd like to disagree.

First of all, Mega Charizard Y, the lowest I'd put this thing is A+, mega charizard Y is simply amazing with all the luring it can provide (I once tried the lure set with special ddance to lure in zard X checks and obliterate them, worked to great success) not only luring but, I claim that most of the people saying it needs heavy support to work aren't really seeing it as it really is. Yes Charizard Y needs support to get rid of SR if you plan it to be a dynamic part of your team, but the support isn't much. Rapid Spin and defogs usage and viability in this metagame together means you subconsciously write it off on your teams without noticing it, mega charizard Y takes little to no adjustments to fit on to your team, if you aren't running hazard removal in this 2014 XY metagame, it's really on you. The amount of power and special bulk and general amazingness Zard Y brings to the table is undeniable, I would put it above char X or next ot char X, I don't get why people think char X is so special, it requires about the amount of support zard Y does in hindsight :/

Second of all, My boi, Mega Garchomp. Mega Garchomp is one of the most HATED on megas in the game due to it's speed drop. However, just because it's speed drops, does not mean it's not good. Mega garchomp is one of the best mixed and physical wall breakers in the tier due to it's immense power, movepool, STABs and ability. Not only that but it gains even greater bulk upon mega evolution letting it serve a plethora of roles better such as pivot and wall chomp. Overall mega chomp just gets so much pros to it's 2 ccons (speed and having to mega stone). Will addm ore when I get time

 

[RufflesPro]

I know a lot of people will disagree with me, but with all honestly, I think Mold Breaker Pinsir is better than Moxie Pinsir.

1- Everyone expects Moxie pinsir, I put Pinsir on a 1% Conkeldurr w/ Stealth rocks up, I use Quick Attack to gain moxie, and guess what, he switches, KNOWING THAT HE WILL DIE SOON AFTER BECAUSE OF SR, honestly Moxie Pinsir is SO predictable.

2- +2 252 Atk Mold Breaker Pinsir Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 292-344 (96 - 113.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Mega Pinsir is a late-game sweeper, and so I save him for late in game. Rotom-W will most of the times have +70% at the end of the game. All you need is to scare something out with Quick Attack and use Swords Dance. Pinsir will outspeed Rotom-W and KO w/ EQ.

3- I know that the game will say "break the mold" but still it's quite unpredictable, and regardless it KOs Rotom-W at +2.


As for Char Y discussion, I want to say the following:

CHARIZARD is the pokemon which is unpredictable. In an indirect way, Char X helps Char Y and Char Y helps Char X. How? Your opponent doesn't know which one you are until you mega evolve or sees DD. Pro-players may know which one from the team, but it's still very hard. And mind games like immune/weak to ground, while weak/resistant to Electric, resistance/neutrality to Fighting, neutrality/weakness to Dragon, etc. All of these will confuse the opponent.

Char Y and Char X make each other un-predictable and versatile before they mega evolve.

Who knows, your Charizard might not even hold a mega stone. (I know very rare)

 

[Mood4food77]

using mold breaker scares away the most common switch-in to mega pinsir which is why i find it more viable on pinsir

 

[WECAMEASROMANS]

The S rank right now looks pretty solid to me. Aegislash is one of the bulkiest mons in its shield forme and its fantastic typing gives it just so many resistances. Not to mention that with the steel nerf, ghost is pretty much one of the best (if not the best) attacking types in the metagame right now. shadow ball does a decent chunk to everything, and King's Shield causes so much mindgames and can be a real lifesaver at times. A solid S rank. Both Charizard formes should stay S rank, but I honestly think they should be tiered together and not seperately. Half the battle against Charizard is finding out what forme it is, and if you guess wrong you pretty much lost one of your mons already. This makes it a HUUUGE threat. You think its Charizard Y so you send out your ttar or your goodra or some shit, then it turns into Charizard X and DDs and destroys you. You think its Charizard X, so you send out your Lando-T or Quagsire or something, but then Charizard Y wrecks you with Fire blast and solarbeam. Even individually, both formes are amazing. Charizard Y has one of the best offensive abilities in the game (Drought) and a higher spatk than fucking MEWTWO. It can run Fire Blast Focus Blast Solarbeam Roost and just wreck house on most of the meta. Charizard X has a freaking awesome STAB typing which makes it so hard to wall due to its immunity to burn and it isnt weak to electric and water anymore. And then theres his ability which basically acts as a recoiless LO. absolutely terrifying to face. Charizard is one of the best mons in the game right now. Mega Venusaur should also stay despite what others have said. It is one of the bulkiest mons in the game right now, and with access to Synthesis with weather being nerfed and Thick Fat negating 2 of its weaknesses, Venu can wall a significant portion of the game with no effort at all. Azumarill, Conkeldurr, Rotom-W, Thundurus, Mega Mawile, and so much more can't do shit to it. Even things you'd expect to beat it like Heatran fall victim to it because lava plume doesnt do much and EQ does a shitton. Mega Venu just craps on most balanced teams in general. Mega Pinsir I'm really on the fence about but my final decision is to let this thing stay in S rank as well. With Mega Luke gone, this thing is pretty much the best go to set up physical attacker out there. SD Return is super strong and it can 2hko even bulky resists like rotom-w and zapdos. The amount of pressure Pinsir puts on stall and defensive teams is just incredible. It's solid defense after mega evolving helps a lot too, and it serves as a nice check to a lot of things in OU such as Conk, Venu, etc.

A+ rank looks pretty good tbh as well. Thundurus is definitely one of the top ones due to it being effective against any playstyle depending how you want to run it. Prankster thunder wave is just a bitch to most offensive teams who really can't afford to have their Dragonite paralyzed or something. Prankster Taunt makes baton pass teams and defensive mons such as hippo and chansey cry. Even with the Hidden power nerf, thundurus can still KO gliscor, lando, garchomp with an HP ice. the nasty plot version is as good as ever even without Thunder, it does a shitload against stall. Kyurem-B and Manaphy should def stay as well because THEY ARE BOTH VERY UBER MATERIAL. kyurem-b has terrific stats all across the board, and with Rotom-W being the #1 most used poke right now... you pretty much get a free sub every time they come into play. It shits on so much defensive cores like rotom-w/venu/heatran and other shit like lando-t and gliscor. The two best sets (specially based sub and physically based sub) are absolutely devasting to face. And its so freaking bulky! Manaphy, although less broken than kyurem-b with drizzle nerf, is still amazingly good. Tail Glow is such an amazing move in general and with manaphy's bulk and speed, its surprisingly easy to set up. it can destroy weakened teams. Garchomp is a really good A+ mon because its so good at what it does and its unpredictable as well... you don't know whether its scarf, band, SD, mega garchomp, or whatever, and the thing is, its good at every single role it does. it can even be used as a lead with focus sash and SR if you want. Both the Lando formes are freaking amazing... Lando I is one of the best LO abusers with sheer force and nukes pretty much everything besides the blobs and Goodra. And Lando-T is awesome because of its solid bulk and intimidate and sky high attack which lets it be a great choice against opposing mega mawiles, dragonites, charizard X, and talonflame. both should stay at A+ imo.

Deoxys-S I have different feelings for. I can definitely see this thing dropping to A just because of how predictable and dull the lead sets are and how weak the LO attacking one is. The lead sets in my opinion are just outclassed by Deoxys-D who has much more bulk and so it doesn't even need a focus sash. Higher speed isnt that much better when you have magic coat. There's also stuff that can limit you to one hazard, like Aegislash, Mega Hera, Thundurus with taunt, etc. The LO version is only average as an attacker. Psycho boost and superpower arent really the best moves you want to use if you wanna attempt a late game sweep... and theres stuff that can survive it anyway and do massive damage to you back. Aegi, zapdos, heatran even... mega mawile, the list goes on. Priority is everywhere this gen which makes Deoxys-S' speed irrevelant at times. The metagame's shift to bulky offense makes Deoxys-S much more manageable.

alexwolf EDIT: Removed the Dragonite paragraph because we are discussing only S and A+ rank Pokemon now.

 

[Salt]

Alright, I'm not going to talk about Charizard this time since I feel that I got my points across and anymore talk about it would be beating the dead horse. I'll talk about a couple of other mons.

Talonflame stays A+: I don't know how people can go suggesting this for S-rank and suggest dropping Charizard Y at the same time (okay, maybe I didn't stop talking about Charizard, but it's relevant). Charizard is better with hazard removal, but can function without it. Talonflame needs it. Period. Having that 4x Stealth Rock Weakness on top of both of its main STABs having recoil really cuts its longevity. Not to mention those STABs are very easily resisted. Literally every Rock type that isn't Bastiodon or Cradily resists both moves, along with Rotom-W/H and Heatran. So someone should not be hard-pressed to find an answer to it, unlike Mega Pinsir or Mega Charizard X. Base 81 Attack is pretty lame as well, despite the high base power of its moves. That means it needs a Choice Band or Swords Dance to do serious damage. CB requires constant switching, which sucks when SR exists, and SD doesn't have U-turn, which means it can't escape from its many counters. It has too many flaws compared to the other S-rank mons sit with them. Priority Brave Bird is fucking amazing though, so it can stay where it is.

Mega Pinsir stays S: It doesn't matter if you're predictable when you wreck everything's shit (see Mega Kangaskhan). Mega Pinsir's Aerilate Return is absurdly powerful, and EQ takes care of most resists. As for those that resist both:

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 142-168 (42.5 - 50.2%) -- 39.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 198-233 (51.5 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Mold Breaker Pinsir Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 292-344 (96 - 113.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

With a bit of team support and/or prior damage, Mega Pinsir can break through them. Unlike Talonflame, Mega Pinsir is a late game sweeper that doesn't require constant switching out, so the 4X SR weakness doesn't matter as much. It's much easier to remove Pinsir's checks/counters before it sweeps, so it deserves the S-ranking. Yeah, it's not the most elaborate argument, but there isn't much to say.

I don't have much to say on the others. I just felt like addressing these two Pokes in my own words. I also support Mega Venusaur staying S and Garchomp/Mega Garchomp staying A+ in particular, though I'll just let the other arguments in favor of this speak for me.

 

[TooMuchSugar]

Deoxys-S I have different feelings for. I can definitely see this thing dropping to A just because of how predictable and dull the lead sets are and how weak the LO attacking one is. The lead sets in my opinion are just outclassed by Deoxys-D who has much more bulk and so it doesn't even need a focus sash. Higher speed isnt that much better when you have magic coat. There's also stuff that can limit you to one hazard, like Aegislash, Mega Hera, Thundurus with taunt, etc. The LO version is only average as an attacker. Psycho boost and superpower arent really the best moves you want to use if you wanna attempt a late game sweep... and theres stuff that can survive it anyway and do massive damage to you back. Aegi, zapdos, heatran even... mega mawile, the list goes on. Priority is everywhere this gen which makes Deoxys-S' speed irrevelant at times. The metagame's shift to bulky offense makes Deoxys-S much more manageable.

The thing about Deoxys-S is, it's NOT a sweeper. It's a revenge killer, and one of the best. It actually has more power than any other revenge killer thanks to the ability to use LO over Choice Scarf, and it's still insanely fast. Yes, it gets forced out after using Psycho Boost (unless your opponent decides to bring in something it can KO with Superpower), but EVERY revenge killer gets forced out after making a kill. Deoxys-S is actually less crippled by this than most, since it can switch to another move if, for example, +1 Dragonite switches out to avoid Ice Beam. Yes, there are things that can take its attacks, but almost everything that it wants to revenge kill will take a ton from LO Psycho Boost.


General Reminder: We are currently only discussing things in the current A+ and S ranks. Don't nominate stuff to move if it's not in one of those two ranks.

EDIT: Okay, maybe I didn't make that clear enough. Look at the OP. If the thing you want to discuss is not under A+ or S, don't post about it.

 

[Srn]

About Charizard-Y, I honestly think it should stay S.

In terms of wallbreaking, nothing really even comes close, except maybe garchomp-mega. He's weak to rocks, has a sub-par speed, and has a bad defense stat, but honestly, that's really where the cons end. Let's talk about what he does do good.

His special defense stat, on the other hand, is actually quite respectable. 115 lets it just shrug off anything defensive rotom-w even does! Sun lowers the damage taken from water attacks, effectively negating one of his weaknesses altogether, and he can roost to keep himself healthy, which, with all the switches he forces, is not hard at all. You could honestly go so far as to forego hazard removal altogether and probably keep yourself fairy healthy, simply from the fact that defog removes both hazards, and you can literally just force your own hazards on them and wait for them to remove yours too. Fire/Flying on the other hand is actually not that bad of a defensive typing, if not for rocks, it actually has some handy resistances in fighting, fire, and immunity to ground, all being very common types.

His special attack stat, oh boy, 159 base doesn't play games. The raw power of sun boosted STAB fire blast from 159 is often too much for even pokemon that resist it. Fire/Grass gets you solid coverage, especially when both of those moves are well over 100 base power. It threatens a 2HKO on nearly every special wall out there not a pink blob, and anything uninvested that doesn't resist it is totally dead. The very fact that the only true counter to this thing is the blobs is just a testament to his power and an even better reason he should stay locked up in S.

Ok, for people who say heatran is a counter to this thing, let me tell you this.
Every charizard-y, without exception, carries something to hit heatran.
Be it Focus Blast (unreliable but beats tyranitar), Earthquake (I like this), or even Hidden Power Ground (I've seen it a lot), Heatran is a predictable switch just begging to be nailed by one of these.
Remember, he can even carry dragon pulse to nail those guys for some damage.

So to sum up, it basically has 2 counters that come in several times throughout the match to deal with anything he can take.
Definitely let this guy stay S.

To those who say mega pinsir is strong and all, oh boy it certainly is, I mean, look at these calcs.

Mega Pinsir stays S: It doesn't matter if you're predictable when you wreck everything's shit (see Mega Kangaskhan). Mega Pinsir's Aerilate Return is absurdly powerful, and EQ takes care of most resists. As for those that resist both:

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 142-168 (42.5 - 50.2%) -- 39.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 198-233 (51.5 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Mold Breaker Pinsir Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 292-344 (96 - 113.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

With a bit of team support and/or prior damage, Mega Pinsir can break through them. Unlike Talonflame, Mega Pinsir is a late game sweeper that doesn't require constant switching out, so the 4X SR weakness doesn't matter as much. It's much easier to remove Pinsir's checks/counters before it sweeps, so it deserves the S-ranking. Yeah, it's not the most elaborate argument, but there isn't much to say.

I don't have much to say on the others. I just felt like addressing these two Pokes in my own words. I also support Mega Venusaur staying S and Garchomp/Mega Garchomp staying A+ in particular, though I'll just let the other arguments in favor of this speak for me.

However, a "bit" of team support and/or prior damage is a sad understatement. You have to realize that this thing literally needs rocks off more than friggin talonflame, atleast he HAS recovery and a good typing. Bug/Flying is utter trash, and honestly, how are you even going to get this boost?
How?
You can't take a hit without being totally crippled and you can't come in multiple times.
Let's just see what you even force out.

Aegislash: nope, he can take an unboosted eq just fine. Shadow balls back for big damage
Charizard-Y: You force it out, but honestly, I'd rather just stay in and risk it.
Charizard-X: 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 228-268 (76.5 - 89.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I'd risk it and stay in
Mega Venusaur: You force it out
Deoxys-S: You lose to psycho boost, can only beat it boosted
Garchomp: Can live and Stone Edge back.
Kyu-B: Lives even after rocks and Ice beams back
Landorus: Sorta forced out.
Landorus-T: Why are you setting up on this
Heatran: You can't risk him having balls of steel and staying in. But you usually force him out.
Manaphy: You die to Ice Beam
Rotom-W: You get burned lol
Talonflame: You just die.
Thundurus: You just die.
Azumarill: You take big damage.
Bisharp: Forced out, mostly.
Conkeldurr: Forced out.
Deoxys-D: You might get T-waved.
Dragonite: Die to fire punch, live with multiscale intact
Excadrill: Forced out.
Gengar: You take big damage.
Greninja: You die.
Gyarados: Intimidate cushions it.
Keldeo: It needs about 22% weakening to gaurantee KO, otherwise you take big damage.
Lati@s: You take big damage/die to draco.
Mamoswine: You die.
Mandibuzz: Foul Play kills you if you try to set up.
Mawile: You take big damage.
Scizor: You sorta win, but you take big damage in the process
Terrakion: You die
Tyranitar: Max Hp lives eq easily, you die.

This might not look like a really impressive list, but there are three other things to take into account:

1) Rocks damage. Pokemon will try to finish you off more often if you're just at 50%
2) Idiots (or just realllly ballsy prediction). Sometimes people just keep their Conk at full health in on your Pinsir and just Ice Punch as you try to set up instead of switching. Idek :/
3) If this was a list of if you could take attacks from it, it would be a lot more straight forward.

 

[Kawaii Kyouko]

Gdamn, reading the whole Mega Charizard Y issue boiled me up. Ait, I'll simply have to start going through the different arguments that sees most use. Because dropping the Zard is honestly... stupid to even consider imo.

"He has 4MSS"
How so? Fire Blast, Solar Beam, Focus Blast is the only moves he needs. I see no reason to run Dragon Pulse at all. None, nada, njet, nein. Goodra still avoids the 2hko without any spedef investments and without AV, Latios gets 2HKOd by Fire Blast (Latias gets 2hkod after rocks if Life Orb), Chomp is 2hkod by Fire Blast, everything is 2hkod by fire blast. Dragon Pulse's only use that I can see is guaranteed 2hko on Latias lefties uninvested Latias and an OHKO on mega Zard X after rocks. I like to think that the three moves he needs is the three B's (Blast, Blast, Beam) with a last slot for damn whatever you want. Substitute? Sure, go ahead. Defog? Well, if you want to. Roost? Staying power is nice. Flare Blitz? Your dedicated special sweepers will enjoy the blobs to be removed. You get the idea.

"He has checks/counters"
Yes, I sure hope so. If not, he should've been quick banned. Goodra is the only true counter, as the blobs can actually not chug on the Flare Blitzes if he opt to run it, and the dragons are decent offensive checks due to his average speed stat. And now... how relevant is his counter? I mean, who actually uses Goodra? I've seen it like twice since December or so, but that might just be my luck or something. Honestly, Zard has an easy time to do his things, and the only support he needs is something like Chomp's Outrage or something like that. It's a very easy mon to use, and the best way to handle it is offensive checks due to his 100 speed stat.

"Stealth Rocks hinders him in his job"
Wallbreakers like him doesn't switch often. In fact they mostly play in the early game, and the pressure he alone puts on the opposing team punishes setting up rocks. He is not hindered by rocks anywhere close to what the likes of Talonflame is, as his job usually keeps the rocks away from the field. It's been so long since I've even used a spinner/defogger with him as it basically isn't needed unless I'm running the Mix variant with Blitz for the blobs. I mean, Zard Y is amongst the best leads there is in the game, simply because he can claim a kill at the very beginning of the match. Leads don't care about rocks.


Now, this is the very core of the mon Zard Y as a standalone mon. Add that to all the Zard X/Zard Y unpredictability and you've got yourself a solid S rank imo.

Also there's the added benefit of Drought, meaning that he could be used on dedicated sun teams (despite Ninetales doing this job better). But Drought alone is a very useful ability not only for zard Y, but also for whatever water-weak mon you have on your team. Excadrill, for instance, is a very good teammate for Zard Y due to their defensive synergy (Exca absorbs rock/electric moves, Zard Y absorbs Ground/fighting moves) as well as either Lati. So, if you're in the lategame and you still have Zard in your ranks and an Excadrill at 50%-ish whilst facing a weakened CB azumarill, then just sacc zard for the sun boost to make Aqua Jet weak and tada. You won. His Drought turns are few, and while the benefit isn't too common, it's a possibility in a pinch.

His Special Defense stat is actually quite respectable too, as Lead Zard Y can 2hko Latios without fearing the OHKO from LO Draco, which alone testifies how much bulk he has behind his wings. Add that to his very good defensively typing (it really is, don't deny it simply due to rocks weakness) and you've got yourself a very powerful mon that threatens everything.

Just to show the special balk.
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 246-290 (82.5 - 97.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And with that, I'll just stop. And I hope the entire discussion will stop, because it's quite preposterous.

Edited this like six times. I didn't stop. I won't stop. Cuz I came in like a Fire Blast.

 

[Wobbyble]

Ok, no, just no.

Now don't get me wrong, these bring up semi-decent points but, I'd like to disagree.

First of all, Mega Charizard Y, the lowest I'd put this thing is A+, mega charizard Y is simply amazing with all the luring it can provide (I once tried the lure set with special ddance to lure in zard X checks and obliterate them, worked to great success) not only luring but, I claim that most of the people saying it needs heavy support to work aren't really seeing it as it really is. Yes Charizard Y needs support to get rid of SR if you plan it to be a dynamic part of your team, but the support isn't much. Rapid Spin and defogs usage and viability in this metagame together means you subconsciously write it off on your teams without noticing it, mega charizard Y takes little to no adjustments to fit on to your team, if you aren't running hazard removal in this 2014 XY metagame, it's really on you. The amount of power and special bulk and general amazingness Zard Y brings to the table is undeniable, I would put it above char X or next ot char X, I don't get why people think char X is so special, it requires about the amount of support zard Y does in hindsight :/

Second of all, My boi, Mega Garchomp. Mega Garchomp is one of the most HATED on megas in the game due to it's speed drop. However, just because it's speed drops, does not mean it's not good. Mega garchomp is one of the best mixed and physical wall breakers in the tier due to it's immense power, movepool, STABs and ability. Not only that but it gains even greater bulk upon mega evolution letting it serve a plethora of roles better such as pivot and wall chomp. Overall mega chomp just gets so much pros to it's 2 ccons (speed and having to mega stone). Will addm ore when I get time

oops i meant A+ for megaY. I edited my post

 

[MilkyWay]

I think pretty much everything is good where it is (not counting A rank and lower that should be A+) except maybe Mega Pinsir. Srn9310 basically summed it up a few posts above me, there are just too many offensive checks to Mega Pinsir even after a Swords Dance boost, which is hard enough to get due to it's shitty defensive typing. Not to mention that it's hard countered by Rotom-Wash, Skarmory, and Zapdos, with the first two being very common. Finally, the weakness to Stealth Rock means that Pinsir can afford to come in once, maybe twice a game. This means that when it does come in it has to get the job done because it might not get another chance. Of course Mega Pinsir is a very good pokemon, but I think it just needs too much team support to be S ranking by definition.

 

[LightningLuxray]

I feel like everything in A+/S rank should stay where it is. WECAMEASROMANS post basically sums this up nicely as to why everything should stay where it is. Deo-S could possibly drop, but I feel it's still a great hazard setter, and it's LO set is also very hard for offensive teams to deal with. However, I think all in all, A+ and S rank are fine. (Some Pokemon should maybe rise to those ranks, but nothing should really drop.)