Srn9130, I guess you have convinced me that Mega Pinsir doesn't need to be S like everything else currently sitting there. It does seem to have a good enough amount of checks to allow it to drop, and the 4x SR weakness usually means it only has one chance to sweep. But its still bat-shit powerful; its Return is only slightly weaker than Mega Kangaskhan's for example and has better coverage because of Aerilate. It's a late-game sweeper, and it should only come in when its checks and counters have been removed or weakened. But I wouldn't be opposed to it dropping or staying where it is. I probably could have made a better case for it too, but it's rather late and my ability to make solid arguments has waned for the night. bullshit excuse, i know
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)
- Thread starter ginganinja
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I don't see how mega garchomp can be A+ with kyurem-B around when kyurem-B is the better wall breaker, especially considering it destroys the rotom-w/mega venusaur combo better than any other pokemon can
I nominate mega garchomp for A Rank, simply because it it outclassed by kyurem-B in it's main role but still has a niche on certain teams over kyurem-b (sand teams in general)
I nominate mega garchomp for A Rank, simply because it it outclassed by kyurem-B in it's main role but still has a niche on certain teams over kyurem-b (sand teams in general)
Mega Garchomp isn't totally outclassed by Kyurem-B. They both have perks over one-another and are actually quite similar. Lists incoming:
Similarities
Wall-breaking Dragons
Literally same attacking stats with 170 Atk/120 SpA
Slow-ish mid 90 speeds
Good bulk to go with the power that they have
Kyurem-B Pros
Teravolt (speaks for itself)
Can run actual items
Doesn't take the Mega Slot
Slightly faster
Mega Garchomp Pros
Better coverage, plus better moves to abuse the higher physical Attack with
Resists SR as opposed to being weak to it
Less susceptible to priority
Crazy powerful in sand
Can abuse Mega Evolution mechanics to be faster than certain things before Mega Evolving
I do agree that Kyurem-B's positives carry more weight than Mega Garchomp's, but they're similar enough that Mega Garchomp doesn't have to be ranked lower than it. MegaChomp in A+ is fine.
I'd say Mega Pinsir probably only deserves A+ ranking. It's fearsome, sure, but it certainly can't sweep without support. It is easily revenged by Talonflame and most Ice Shards, particularly after rocks. It also can't take on Rotoms without them being weakened first. It is a late game sweeper by necessity, not choice, as the earlier it comes out, the more likely it'll get roflstomped without accomplishing anything. It's not bad by any means, but it has neither the versatility or unpredictability of Aegislash and Zard: it's there to clean house after its teammates have lured and weakened its counters.
I just feel like at the moment, the only Pokémon who needs moving or can be really debated is Pinsir as the rest of them have been (and debated at length multiple times mind you) about staying where they are. The B ranking holds the most intrique for me (Hippowdon. Need I say more?) yet I do think Pinsir can stay where it is while also moving down. I can see the arguments for both sides, yet the main flaw I find with him is that he just feels....right in that general range ya know?
Overall I see a lot of back and forth and it reminds just a little bout of how Mega Medicham was A- Rank just for hitting hard. While I am in no way saying Mega Medicham is a better mon, I am simply comparing the two discussions. Pinsir has a great many options more to abuse, as in it can beat its common switch ins with excellent play (via Mold Breaker EQ to beat Rotom-W) and Skarmory being left to deal with others. Yet I feel as if it needs to be said, Mega Pinsir fulfills the criteria of S rank like Charizard does easy.
You can almost guarantee a Sword Dance on turn one, but what if you send Rotom-W in and he hasn't Mega Evolved yet? Heck, it could be hell (true, if you see him 'breaking the mold' then you may not want to send it out) but this is the idea of him perform multiple roles is that he can quite use his regular form to a great many different ways to help increase his over all power. If anything, I'd say S rank's key factor is that he can use his prior form to his advantage to beat a counter of his.
That is what I believe is the key thing here, but if I'm wrong, please feel free to do so.
Overall I see a lot of back and forth and it reminds just a little bout of how Mega Medicham was A- Rank just for hitting hard. While I am in no way saying Mega Medicham is a better mon, I am simply comparing the two discussions. Pinsir has a great many options more to abuse, as in it can beat its common switch ins with excellent play (via Mold Breaker EQ to beat Rotom-W) and Skarmory being left to deal with others. Yet I feel as if it needs to be said, Mega Pinsir fulfills the criteria of S rank like Charizard does easy.
The only real thing Mega Pinsir can not do is perform multiple roles (well, only sorta. More on that later). It will be a physical sweeper, and one that cleans house when given the opportunity. He requires just as much support as Char Y (except just having Skarmory cleared over the Blobs) which in retrospect, follows the guidelines of some other Pokémon I have seen as well (Skarmory, one of the premier physical walls? Okay, the best of the best can hold you to a standstill, what else is new?) and he does in fact create free turns.
You can almost guarantee a Sword Dance on turn one, but what if you send Rotom-W in and he hasn't Mega Evolved yet? Heck, it could be hell (true, if you see him 'breaking the mold' then you may not want to send it out) but this is the idea of him perform multiple roles is that he can quite use his regular form to a great many different ways to help increase his over all power. If anything, I'd say S rank's key factor is that he can use his prior form to his advantage to beat a counter of his.
That is what I believe is the key thing here, but if I'm wrong, please feel free to do so.
like i said, he's not entirely outclassed and is deserving of at least A rank, but the fact he's slightly outclassed by something else in A+ rank means he shouldn't be in the same rank as said pokemon
I think Pinsir is as one-dimensional as you can get while still being an S-rank threat. It pretty much has a whopping one viable moveset (Return/Quick Attack or Feint/EQ/SD) but it's still hard to counter, with pretty much only ground-immune electric/steel types (Rotom-W, Skarmory, Zapdos) able to do so (and with Rotom-W having to deal with Mold Breaker EQ.)
Medicham is a wallbreaker, Pinsir is more a sweeper. Pinsir doesn't just hit hard, it's also pretty fast, and has good priority and a bit of bulk.
It will be neat to see where other megas will finally end up once we get to them. Mega Lucario had just so much power, speed and priority that there was little reason to use other megas over it. Why use Medicham as a wallbreaker when Lucario can't be walled? Why use Manectric as an offensive pivot that can wear down opponents when Lucario can just OHKO them? But now I think there's plenty of reason to use them more in OU, they actually have pros over "the top megas." Can't wait till we get to the lower ranked mons (are we really doing a full week per one or two ranks?)
I'd really not call Mega Garchomp outclassed by KyuB.
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Pinsir should definitely stay in S. The way this mon is played (and played around) usually decides the result of the whole game. To me, that's enough. It's an insane wall breaker in just 2 attacks, and can sweep on a dime if given the slightest room. Nothing in the meta is as destructive. Mega Pinsir is more destructive than mega Charizard even when EVERYONE knows EXACTLY what it's going to do as soon as they see it.
I've seen players keep (and sweep) with a Pinsir at 5% or less health. It's just way too dangerous to be lower than S.
If anything, I'd wonder if Mega Venu might need a demotion, as with Luke gone the meta is evolving away from those threats that it is so great at walling. More Talonflame, Charizard, Pinsir, and even Mega Medicham and Aegislash is really bad for Venu. Being a flawless wall to Conkeldurr, Azumarril, and Breloom only goes so far.
I've seen players keep (and sweep) with a Pinsir at 5% or less health. It's just way too dangerous to be lower than S.
If anything, I'd wonder if Mega Venu might need a demotion, as with Luke gone the meta is evolving away from those threats that it is so great at walling. More Talonflame, Charizard, Pinsir, and even Mega Medicham and Aegislash is really bad for Venu. Being a flawless wall to Conkeldurr, Azumarril, and Breloom only goes so far.
I'd say keep Venusaur S. Mega Venusaur has some immense bulk, as well as access to an all-around reliable recovery with the mix of Synthesis, Giga Drain, and Leech Seed. Not only that, but Mega Venusaur can form some absolutely devastating cores with Pokemon like Heatran, Rotom-W, and Mandibuzz. It's ability to wall a lot of the metagames strongest/most used Pokemon, including Rotom-W, Thundy-I/T, Heatran, Azumarill, Conkeldurr, Keldeo, and many more shouldn't go unnoticed, either.
Overall, I think the main reason for this thing staying S is it's ability to work SO well with other Pokemon. It's basically a must for near any stall team, and most stall player will tell you it's probably the best wall in the tier ATM.
Thoughts: Char-Y for A+
The first of my reasons for this, that I noticed upon skimming the past few pages has not yet been mentioned, is an average speed tier and lack of a relevant Speed-boosting move (barring Dragon Dance... hmmmm), meaning after switching into a resisted Fire Blast, a number of threats can force it out with the threat of super-effective moves. Sure, nothing save the blobs is repeatedly switching into Fire Blast, but surely, any reasonably competent player can make sure it does not get to repeatedly switch in? It cannot be overstated how crippling a 4x Stealth Rock weakness is. It means that as long as it stays active, Char-Y can only switch in twice. Char-Y can easily use Roost, but this is a move that forces it to lose momentum, as Roost turns can be easily predicted and be capitalized on by the opponent, especially if he is using an offensive team.
Speaking of team archetypes, both offensively and stall-oriented teams aren't threatened enough by Char-Y for it to be S rank. Offensive teams can handle Char-Y with hazard stacking, deosharp, and simply having at least 4/6 team members faster than Char-Y and 3 of these who have a move that can take away >50% of its health. The only situation that Char-Y threatens offensive teams is if it manages to switch in against the remaining 1-2 slower members. Balanced teams also frequently contain members like Garchomp, Terrakion, and (Mega) Tyranitar, things that can be aggressively double switched in against Char-Y, or that can take a Fire Blast if necessary, and proceed to reverse momentum.
As for defensive teams, I'll just start by saying that (as with all good stallbreakers) Char-Y massacres all common members of such teams bar like 2 in Latias and Chansey. Does that make it incredibly threatening to these teams? Perhaps. Char-Y is doing 29-34% to Chansey, and 35-41% to 252/0 Latias with Timid sun-boosted Fire Blast. This would destroy stall teams, if not for the fact that Chansey and Latias both have access to reliable recovery, and that Fire Blast has a whopping 8 pp. Once that pp is expended, the Char-Y user is essentially down 5-6. If anything, Char-X is the far more threatening stallbreaker with Dragon Dance, Flare Blitz, and Outrage, in addition to being a great sweeper / cleaner (hence comparing the 2, I feel there is a marked difference in how good each Mega Char performs in the meta - a difference that puts Char-X in S and Char-Y in A+). All this does not make Char-Y weak, rather, it means that it is not as massively threatening as people hype it up to be, and that A+ seems like a more reasonable place for it to be.
The first of my reasons for this, that I noticed upon skimming the past few pages has not yet been mentioned, is an average speed tier and lack of a relevant Speed-boosting move (barring Dragon Dance... hmmmm), meaning after switching into a resisted Fire Blast, a number of threats can force it out with the threat of super-effective moves. Sure, nothing save the blobs is repeatedly switching into Fire Blast, but surely, any reasonably competent player can make sure it does not get to repeatedly switch in? It cannot be overstated how crippling a 4x Stealth Rock weakness is. It means that as long as it stays active, Char-Y can only switch in twice. Char-Y can easily use Roost, but this is a move that forces it to lose momentum, as Roost turns can be easily predicted and be capitalized on by the opponent, especially if he is using an offensive team.
Speaking of team archetypes, both offensively and stall-oriented teams aren't threatened enough by Char-Y for it to be S rank. Offensive teams can handle Char-Y with hazard stacking, deosharp, and simply having at least 4/6 team members faster than Char-Y and 3 of these who have a move that can take away >50% of its health. The only situation that Char-Y threatens offensive teams is if it manages to switch in against the remaining 1-2 slower members. Balanced teams also frequently contain members like Garchomp, Terrakion, and (Mega) Tyranitar, things that can be aggressively double switched in against Char-Y, or that can take a Fire Blast if necessary, and proceed to reverse momentum.
As for defensive teams, I'll just start by saying that (as with all good stallbreakers) Char-Y massacres all common members of such teams bar like 2 in Latias and Chansey. Does that make it incredibly threatening to these teams? Perhaps. Char-Y is doing 29-34% to Chansey, and 35-41% to 252/0 Latias with Timid sun-boosted Fire Blast. This would destroy stall teams, if not for the fact that Chansey and Latias both have access to reliable recovery, and that Fire Blast has a whopping 8 pp. Once that pp is expended, the Char-Y user is essentially down 5-6. If anything, Char-X is the far more threatening stallbreaker with Dragon Dance, Flare Blitz, and Outrage, in addition to being a great sweeper / cleaner (hence comparing the 2, I feel there is a marked difference in how good each Mega Char performs in the meta - a difference that puts Char-X in S and Char-Y in A+). All this does not make Char-Y weak, rather, it means that it is not as massively threatening as people hype it up to be, and that A+ seems like a more reasonable place for it to be.
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Rotosect
Banned deucer.
Mega Venusaur was never worthy of S rank to begin with, but yes, it needs to be dropped especially considering that Mega Pinsir is now going to gain a huge jump in usage with Mega Lucario gone. Keep in mind that Mega Venusaur will now be forced to always run Sludge Bomb because M-Pinsir couldn't care less about its Grass STAB, Earthquake and Knock Off. Being forced to run a poison-type move for coverage means it will have a harder time against steel types, especially Skarmory, who will be more common now that Genesect is gone. I honestly don't see Megasaur being very effective after this metagame shift so move it down to A+ rank, perhaps even A rank.
I also agree that Mega Charizard Y should be moved down to A+ rank for the flaws that have been mentioned. 4x SR weakness is too significant to ignore (it's the sole reason Ho-oh isn't S-rank in ubers despite Regenerator. More specifically, Ho-oh was dropped from S-rank to A+ rank because of it) and it can be handled by a number of very common pokemon such as Tyranitar, Heatran and Chansey.
The "you don't know what stone Charizard is holding" argument is being overplayed because thanks to team preview it's not that hard to make an educate guess about that.
While I agree it will definitely be good to give attention to other Megas now that Lucario is gone its still a bit too early since we also have to account for Genesect also disappearing, meaning one less threat. So I am somewhat hesitant at this point to really try and rank when the void left my MLucario is yet to be filled though MPinsir has always been a strong contender for that. MManetric is I think another one that will perhaps see some use now, not necessarily because MLucario is gone but more of that Genesect is gone.
Here's the thing, Char Y is never meant to be a sweeper. People seem to always forget that. It's job is to come in, and nuke the living shit out of anything and everything. Boosting with Char Y is always a bad idea, because it only has 5 turns to make full of its Fire Blast and Solar Beam combo. Even resisted Fire Blast will hurt like a bitch under the sun. It will always have to come out at some point in time after those 5 turns and no team is gonna run Char Y without solid hazard support, which has become way easier now thanks to Defog. Your argument is essentially based on making Char Y your team's sweeper and frankly, you're using him wrong.
Do not misconstrue me; my argument is anything but that, and I suggest you read my post more clearly.
This can always be countered by a team that specifically tries to make you think that it's the wrong one
And doing that probably harms their team more than it helps.
perplexingpool
Banned deucer.
I got fucked by a team containing a Charizard, paired with Dugtrio and a couple of sun abusers. So I ended up saccing my megazard x check and it turned out to be x and swept me.
There's an easy way to beat both charizard-- just make a team of NOTHING but Pokemon that can outspeed or kill either charizard one on one!
That's what I did, and I laddered up to 1690 today from nothing. No Zard problems at all!
Terrakion, Garchomp, Rock Slide Landorus-I, CB Dragonite, CS Lando-T, Stone Edge Infernape, Stone Edge Gyarados, Mega TTar (or AV TTar), Mega Pinsir, Stone Edge Conk, Latios, Hidden Power Rock Latias, Power Gem Starmie, etc etc
Make a team with NOTHING but these types of Pokemon, and I guarantee-- no more charizard problems!
See, Charizard is fine as long as you use the right team!
That's what I did, and I laddered up to 1690 today from nothing. No Zard problems at all!
Terrakion, Garchomp, Rock Slide Landorus-I, CB Dragonite, CS Lando-T, Stone Edge Infernape, Stone Edge Gyarados, Mega TTar (or AV TTar), Mega Pinsir, Stone Edge Conk, Latios, Hidden Power Rock Latias, Power Gem Starmie, etc etc
Make a team with NOTHING but these types of Pokemon, and I guarantee-- no more charizard problems!
See, Charizard is fine as long as you use the right team!
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Again, I realize but I was just comparing the two discussions as it was covering some slight similar points while going in circles.
I have to disagree about Megasaur. I'm baffled as to where this idea that the only reason Saur was S Rank was because it was a Luke check has come from- Saur was never a Luke check because it lost to special variants. You've been on this thread long enough to have heard all the arguments for Saur being S so I won't go into great depth, but Mega Venu continues to wall much of the metagame. A weakness that is only seen on a few pokemon that may become more common is a dubious reason to drop Venu down, Aegislash is weak to the 4 most common coverage types and it's easily S Rank. And Venu will not be "required" to run Sludge Bomb, any more then Ferrothorn "has" to run bulldoze for fire-types: It can, but walls aren't meant to stop things with super-effective STAB anyway.
That paragraph did badly at getting my point across... to rephrase: As Mega Venusaur was never more then a check to Physical Megaluke, it's ability to check did little to effect it's ranking. Mega Pinsir becoming more common is unfortunate for Mega Venusaur, but as it still walls most of the metagame and has coverage options available to make Pinsir suffer, should it really desire to. Mega Pinsir is no more of a concern to it now then Talonflame already was: present, but it's two pokemon in an entire metagame. I feel it is still S Rank, as it can wall much of the metagame and is unrivalled as a defensive mega.
Megasaur is a definite threat and wall in the current meta. With only a flying and psychic weakness, the inability to be toxic'd, solid bulk, and several moves which regen hp, mega saur becomes an impassable wall. The only solid kills possible become a talon flame (which takes 50% with rocks up), or a deoxys d (the only common psychic type at the moment. People could argue about a alakazam, but the only solid variant is the sashed one, which takes HUGE damage from sludge bomb. And from prior experience, i can say that zam doesn't OHKO with a psychic, however i'm not sure about a psyschock.
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This comparison between ho-oh and zard would work if... well, if zard was a pivot like ho-oh. But he's not. His job is simply to punch holes early-game and after that you can sacc him or let him die to blitz recoil. Ttar and heatran gets 2hkod by focus blast, so no they don't handle it. Chansey gets 2hkpd by flare blitz, so zard has the potential to win there.
And there are the whole Special/Physical Overpower playstyle that loves zard due to the obvious options for it.
And just a thought on mega chomp. I find it to be slightly pointless as it doesn't do anything different to what a regular chomp does. Sure it is bulkier, has increased attack and a good ability paired with sand. It just doesn't seem to be of any use for me. As the decreased speed puts it in a horrible speed tier, compared to regular chomp which is in a fantastic speed tier. That's why i think mega chomp should drop to A, but garchomp should stay in A+.
I'm on the fence with Mega Venu as well-- because it is a poke that has performed so well for me (in the luke meta). That said, I really do think its performence has dropped. It's not so much that it "was only S for being a luke check", but the fact that with Luke gone, the offensive threats that are now "top threats" of the meta are all Pokemon Mega Venu struggles with.
Charizard and Pinsir become the 2 top mega users, and all 3 of mega zard/pinsir wipe the floor with Venusaur. Of the non-mega threats, Talonflame and Aegislash are the two best and most common, and both of them can cause Mega Venu a lot of problems too.
Just look at our own ranking here in this thread:
S Pokemon: Every other S beats Mega Venu 1 on 1 generally (Aegislash smashes it with a crusher ball, then switches out to get rid of leech seed while forcing Venu to Synthesis)
A+:
Deoxys-S destroys it outright
SD + Outrage Garchomp can flatten Venu (never mind Mega's Draco Meteor)
Heatran kinda stale mate
Kyu-B: One of the best anti-venu pokes in the game
Lando-I: Overcomes Venu with Earth Power
Talonflame: destroys venu
Rotom-w: Is "checked" by venu, but venu can't stop volt switch and hates the damage from burn (which it inevitably gets hit with)
Lando-T: can actually cause Venu a lot of problems if it's low on synthesis, and still gets Rocks up
Thundurus-I: Venu's a good check to Thundurus-I
Granted, once you hit A rank, you get to a LOT of Pokemon that Venu does great against, so it's obvious that Venu is, and always will be, a really great Pokemon in XY. However, being a great Pokemon and deserving S rank are two different issues. Mega Venus doesn't perform that great against the current S/A+ threats. This is shaping up to be a much tougher meta for venu.
I wouldn't drop it below A+, but that S rank is a bit more suspicious than before.
Charizard and Pinsir become the 2 top mega users, and all 3 of mega zard/pinsir wipe the floor with Venusaur. Of the non-mega threats, Talonflame and Aegislash are the two best and most common, and both of them can cause Mega Venu a lot of problems too.
Just look at our own ranking here in this thread:
S Pokemon: Every other S beats Mega Venu 1 on 1 generally (Aegislash smashes it with a crusher ball, then switches out to get rid of leech seed while forcing Venu to Synthesis)
A+:
Deoxys-S destroys it outright
SD + Outrage Garchomp can flatten Venu (never mind Mega's Draco Meteor)
Heatran kinda stale mate
Kyu-B: One of the best anti-venu pokes in the game
Lando-I: Overcomes Venu with Earth Power
Talonflame: destroys venu
Rotom-w: Is "checked" by venu, but venu can't stop volt switch and hates the damage from burn (which it inevitably gets hit with)
Lando-T: can actually cause Venu a lot of problems if it's low on synthesis, and still gets Rocks up
Thundurus-I: Venu's a good check to Thundurus-I
Granted, once you hit A rank, you get to a LOT of Pokemon that Venu does great against, so it's obvious that Venu is, and always will be, a really great Pokemon in XY. However, being a great Pokemon and deserving S rank are two different issues. Mega Venus doesn't perform that great against the current S/A+ threats. This is shaping up to be a much tougher meta for venu.
I wouldn't drop it below A+, but that S rank is a bit more suspicious than before.
If you are using MegaChomp the same way as Garchomp, you are using one wrong. Normal Garchomp is meant to be a physical sweeper, with Scarf/SD/LO/etc. MegaChomp, on the other hand, is meant to be a mixed wallbreaker. In that regard, it competes with Kyurem-B, which, it has alteady been outlined, does not outclass it, as they each have individual pros and cons.
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