If you're trying to wall special attackers/set up against strong special attackers with Mega-Scizor, you're using it wrong. Mega-Scizor's greatest utility lies in it's great physical bulk; unless it's confronting something which it knows it can wall on the special side (like a defog/roost/psyshock/draco meteor Latios) it shouldn't be matched up against special attackers. M-Scizor's use lies in it's ability to discourage those special threats from switching into it, and, when it can't do that, escape with U-Turn (or, if it can, proceed to boost on the switch and beat these sweepers). Mega-Scizor shouldn't be taking hidden power fires; it shouldn't be your answer to specially offensive pokemon in general.
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)
- Thread starter ginganinja
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If you're trying to wall special attackers/set up against strong special attackers with Mega-Scizor, you're using it wrong. Mega-Scizor's greatest utility lies in it's great physical bulk; unless it's confronting something which it knows it can wall on the special side (like a defog/roost/psyshock/draco meteor Latios) it shouldn't be matched up against special attackers. M-Scizor's use lies in it's ability to discourage those special threats from switching into it, and, when it can't do that, escape with U-Turn (or, if it can, proceed to boost on the switch and beat these sweepers). Mega-Scizor shouldn't be taking hidden power fires; it shouldn't be your answer to specially offensive pokemon in general.
Avoid them like you do with everything else that has a 4x weakness? Do you just let your Garchomp get hit by Ice Beams or your Tyranitar get hit by Close Combats?
I must admit I've even fairly biased this gen. I used M Scizor a little but I've always been a big fan of his banded set.
Sounds like I'll be giving his Mega a more in-depth look. Thanks for the info!
Of course not lol, I just meant that M Scizor doesn't necessarily have the best staying power, whereas banded Scizor doesn't particularly need to stay in at all. I haven't made extensive use of M Scizor so I'm just going by what I've seen. I'm sure there's more to him than I'm making out, although I never denied that he's a good Pokemon!
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I think most of the things in A / A- are placed correctly. There are two I think are currently underrated: Mandibuzz moreso, and Dragonite to a lesser degree.
Mandibuzz should be A+. She does a great job at checking tons of physical threats, while at the same time being a Defog carrier, and is immune to Spore due to Overcoat (crushes any Baton Pass teams relying on Smeargle to start, but also has Whirlwind to ruin any back-up plans). She has reliable recovery in Roost, so she can bring her health up whenever she forces a physical attacker out. Also access to Taunt to prevent Pokemon from setting up on her (though I personally prefer Whirlwind for my team to break a Substitute setup). Foul Play with STAB lets Mandibuzz threaten to 2HKO strong physical attackers, who require boosts to manage the same against her.
Dragonite should be A+. He does a great job at keeping you guessing and gaining advantage from it, assuming his user keeps Stealth Rock off the field (or Dragonite at full health by another means like Wish). If you Ice Beam or Hidden Power [Ice] a Weakness Policy Dragonite as he uses Dragon Dance, good luck preventing a sweep or serious damage by a +3 / +1 monster that also has Extremespeed (higher priority than the 40 damage moves and Sucker Punch). If you try to Will-o-Wisp or Thunder Wave a Lum Berry Dragonite, that's one lost turn while he sets up a Dragon Dance, or weakens you with one of his two other moves to then finish you with Extremespeed. These two are the two highest impact sets if the opponent falls for the trap (using the wrong response to each), but the Choice Band set also pokes holes into the enemy team really well. Fairies switching into Choice Band Outrage doesn't help much, because it ends the Outrage and Dragonite doesn't get confused, making him free to switch out, or stay in and fight if Multiscale is still up. The thing that sets Dragonite apart from the other set-up Dragon-types who don't deserve A+ ranking is that it is so easy for his checks / counters to make a "mistake" depending on what item the Dragonite has. Salamence and Haxorus don't have the survivability to muscle past their checks and continue sweeps, and don't have Extremespeed to heavily dent the Pokemon that ends the sweep before going down.
Tangentially related to Scizors eating fire attacks: I've noticed recently a lot of players keep sending in Scizor to Mega evolve and set-up Swords Dance against my Tyranitar. And they get roasted by Fire Blast. It's happened 5-6 times already and I still haven't gotten bit by a Superpower or Bullet Punch or U-Turn at all.
Mandibuzz should be A+. She does a great job at checking tons of physical threats, while at the same time being a Defog carrier, and is immune to Spore due to Overcoat (crushes any Baton Pass teams relying on Smeargle to start, but also has Whirlwind to ruin any back-up plans). She has reliable recovery in Roost, so she can bring her health up whenever she forces a physical attacker out. Also access to Taunt to prevent Pokemon from setting up on her (though I personally prefer Whirlwind for my team to break a Substitute setup). Foul Play with STAB lets Mandibuzz threaten to 2HKO strong physical attackers, who require boosts to manage the same against her.
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 292-345 (68.8 - 81.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Foul Play hits back for 78.5 - 92.6%)
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 172-204 (40.5 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (Foul Play hits back for 56.2 - 66.1%)
252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 136-162 (32 - 38.2%) -- 0.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (Foul Play hits back for 45.2 - 53.6%)
252 Atk Garchomp Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 152-180 (35.8 - 42.4%) -- 93.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 184-217 (43.3 - 51.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (Foul Play hits back for 51.9 - 61.1%)
252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 204-242 (48.1 - 57%) -- 41.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird (or Flare Blitz) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 163-193 (38.4 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (Foul Play hits back for 55.3 - 65.4%)
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 134-158 (31.6 - 37.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery (Should Whirlwind him out, Foul Play has type disadvantage)
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 100-118 (23.5 - 27.8%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 172-204 (40.5 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (Foul Play hits back for 56.2 - 66.1%)
252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 136-162 (32 - 38.2%) -- 0.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (Foul Play hits back for 45.2 - 53.6%)
252 Atk Garchomp Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 152-180 (35.8 - 42.4%) -- 93.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 184-217 (43.3 - 51.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (Foul Play hits back for 51.9 - 61.1%)
252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 204-242 (48.1 - 57%) -- 41.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird (or Flare Blitz) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 163-193 (38.4 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (Foul Play hits back for 55.3 - 65.4%)
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 134-158 (31.6 - 37.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery (Should Whirlwind him out, Foul Play has type disadvantage)
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 100-118 (23.5 - 27.8%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
Dragonite should be A+. He does a great job at keeping you guessing and gaining advantage from it, assuming his user keeps Stealth Rock off the field (or Dragonite at full health by another means like Wish). If you Ice Beam or Hidden Power [Ice] a Weakness Policy Dragonite as he uses Dragon Dance, good luck preventing a sweep or serious damage by a +3 / +1 monster that also has Extremespeed (higher priority than the 40 damage moves and Sucker Punch). If you try to Will-o-Wisp or Thunder Wave a Lum Berry Dragonite, that's one lost turn while he sets up a Dragon Dance, or weakens you with one of his two other moves to then finish you with Extremespeed. These two are the two highest impact sets if the opponent falls for the trap (using the wrong response to each), but the Choice Band set also pokes holes into the enemy team really well. Fairies switching into Choice Band Outrage doesn't help much, because it ends the Outrage and Dragonite doesn't get confused, making him free to switch out, or stay in and fight if Multiscale is still up. The thing that sets Dragonite apart from the other set-up Dragon-types who don't deserve A+ ranking is that it is so easy for his checks / counters to make a "mistake" depending on what item the Dragonite has. Salamence and Haxorus don't have the survivability to muscle past their checks and continue sweeps, and don't have Extremespeed to heavily dent the Pokemon that ends the sweep before going down.
Tangentially related to Scizors eating fire attacks: I've noticed recently a lot of players keep sending in Scizor to Mega evolve and set-up Swords Dance against my Tyranitar. And they get roasted by Fire Blast. It's happened 5-6 times already and I still haven't gotten bit by a Superpower or Bullet Punch or U-Turn at all.
Tyranitar @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 24 Atk / 224 SDef / 8 Spe
Brave Nature
- Pursuit
- Rock Slide
- Fire Blast
- Stealth Rock
24 Atk EVs is a jump number which gives 341 Attack (20 EVs give 339 Attack) and does 99.3 - 117.2% damage to a switching Latios (90 - 107.2% to 4 Hp / 0 Def Latias).
224 SDef EVs give an even amount of Sp. Defense (odd amounts lose out on one point from Sandstorm's 1.5x iirc).
8 Spe EVs lets me hit first on Aegislash who might be confident they'll outspeed with their 12 Spe EVs. Fire Blast does 80.2 - 95% to 252 Hp / 4 SDef Aegislash-Blade (32.7 - 38.8% to Aegislash-Shield with the same investment).
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 24 Atk / 224 SDef / 8 Spe
Brave Nature
- Pursuit
- Rock Slide
- Fire Blast
- Stealth Rock
24 Atk EVs is a jump number which gives 341 Attack (20 EVs give 339 Attack) and does 99.3 - 117.2% damage to a switching Latios (90 - 107.2% to 4 Hp / 0 Def Latias).
224 SDef EVs give an even amount of Sp. Defense (odd amounts lose out on one point from Sandstorm's 1.5x iirc).
8 Spe EVs lets me hit first on Aegislash who might be confident they'll outspeed with their 12 Spe EVs. Fire Blast does 80.2 - 95% to 252 Hp / 4 SDef Aegislash-Blade (32.7 - 38.8% to Aegislash-Shield with the same investment).
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Ok can a mod please move this thread on to B+ and B rank discussion as everything in the A and A- Ranks have been discussed fairly thoroughly at least once with some having two (Conkeldurr, Latios) three (Scizor, Gyarados, Dragonite) and oh dear god four (Bisharp) Full length discussions. I am not asking for the mods/councils final opinions on shifts just to advance discussion forward to the next stage. It's just that its been discussed so thoroughly that the same pokes (ahem Bisharp) keep getting brought up again and again and every time the exact same points and counterpoints are made. It's literally the same arguments over and over again with the same results please just let us move on.
TlDr: Everything in these ranks have been thoroughly discussed lets move on already.
TlDr: Everything in these ranks have been thoroughly discussed lets move on already.
Ranking Gyarados and Mega Gyarados separately seems a little strange. Unlike most megas, Gyarados's base form is a very strong Pokemon on its own with distinct typing and a great ability. This means that in a good amount of matches, Gyarados can and should choose to not evolve even when holding its mega stone to check specific threats on the opponent's team. Intimidate, Ground immunity, and a resistance to Fighting rather than a weakness are very relevant and let Gyarados perform much better than its mega form against several threats, including A ranks Landorus, Azumarill, Conkeldurr, Keldeo, and Scizor and also often helps Gyarados swap in more easily even when it plans to evolve.
Since the ability to choose between its forms is a major benefit to using Gyarados-with-its-mega-stone, I think they should be ranked together wherever they end up. (I don't have a strong opinion on where they should be placed. A rank seems fine.)
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Actually not all mons have been discussed. For reasons I mentioned earlier which were not commented on I think Mawile Mega should move to A+ .
Here it is again. Sorry for double post. Once again I'm on my phone. Not sure how to post 2 different quotes in the 1 post.
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Page 177 had some discussion on Megawile as well as your own previous post that you so kindly quoted for us to see. We did see your post however we though that either you made all the points we would have (my personal thoughts ) or that all the other points hade already been made ( page 177). Whilst it definitely hasn't been as discussed as some (Bisharp, Mamoswine, Excadrill) it has been discussed. When I said everything had been discussed I took the list and looked theough the topic from page 176 to here and I literally meant that Every Single Poke hade been discussed and a lot just keep getting brought up with the same recurring arguments. For all its worth to you I do agree that Megawile should be A+ but my mind was made up back on page 177. So can we please move on already.
Actually a very important argument about both Gyarados hasn't made. What made MegaDos so great is the fact that it can hide itself behind his standard form, grabbing an incredible number of setup opportunities considering both forms, and generating mindgames. MegaDos wouldn't be nearly as good if it wasn't for his ability to stay regular Dos for an extended period of time, and this essentially brings up again the same argument about Charizard; like Charizard, who is great because of the sheer unpredictability it brings turn 1, Gyarados is great because of the number of qualities of both forms coupled, essentially being two mons at the same time. Because of this, i think both Gyarados should be A+.
I feel like keeping him as Gyarados for more than maybe 2 turns without an item is a bad idea, though?
No its not. If its clear that u cant attempt a sweep for example its better to stay in normal form to utilize Intimidate on ur next switch in. Then its a question of what possible checks the opponent has. If ur opponent has a Conkeldurr u want to stay as normal Gyarados to maintain ur fighting resistance. On the other hand against stuff like Rotom-w u want to evolve to abuse Mold Breaker, the new typing and increased bulk to kill it/tank the volt switch. The "loss" of an item isnt that important overall, most of the time u will evolve for sure at some point, however deciding when to evolve is crucial for Megados success, its his unique ability to switch around his counters completely that makes him so strong.
I just went back and looked at page 177 which I admittedly missed. You are correct in that Mega Mawile certainly has not had a lot of discussion. All that was really said was that it can set up easily, it's sucker punches hurt and it has a distaste for fire moves from pokemon like zard (when in reality I think they both get KO'd by +2 sucker punches).
It would be frustrating to see Mawile just left in A, simply because the the last ten pages have not favored discussion on her. In my opinion she is a top tier threat and deserves more analysis before we move on.
Glad we agree though that Mawile is worthy of A+ rank. I would settle with that for now, but I can definitely see her moving to S at some point.
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Right! I also want to start nominating the pokemon that aren't ranked yet, but they're probably only going to get to B- tops.
To be honest I'd agree with Mawile for A or A+ rank. It has good bulk, and insane (base 259 equivalent) attack. It can run SubPunch or SD sets very effectively, has monstrous STAB in Play Rough, and priority that has a nice offensive types, and also bypasses King's Shield. Its main flaws are intimidate weakness, Ground Moves, and fire moves, but those can easily be taken care of by teammates. I may be a bit biased as I've always loved Mawile, but to me, it's just really good.
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Otherwise, it seems to me the only pokemon that haven't been discussed (not reached a conclusion on, just simply brought up) are (non-Mega) Ttar and (non-Mega) Scizor. Assault vest ttar is very good, but I'm not sure it's A+ with all of its weaknesses. I think Scizor should stick to being CB, as non CB scizor is usually inferior to Scizor-M (whom I believe should be A+). Non mega scizor has hard hitting priority, can gain momentum with a strong uturn, and now even has a strong dark move in Knock Off (or Thief). What do people think??
No, I think Mega Mawile is fine where it is. I think its main problem is being so reliant on Sucker Punch, it's really easy to play around and stuff. It hates powerful special attackers like keldeo and thundurus, as it can't switch in at all, and even Conkeldurr deals a hefty 40%~ with drain punch, depending on HP evs could be more. The point is, it's VERY easy to wear it down, and if you do get in safely, you're still super slow and easy to revenge kill.
It's just a little bit too overreliant on sucker punch, and it hates Landorus-T a lot, which is super common. It has very common weaknesses in fire and ground, and while its defensive typing IS excellent, it suffers from no recovery (I wouldn't recommend Pain Split) and really bad speed. If you want to outspeed anything relevant, you're sacrificing even more bulk, which isn't that great to being with. Remember, you may have practically the best defensive typing in the game, but you're still working off of a 50 base HP.
So the flaws that hold him back from being A+, in my eyes:
No recovery, easy to wear down
Common Weaknesses
VERY slow
Reliance on unreliable priority
It hits hard, and it has powerful ass priority, but its just not as influential as things like Lando-T, Mega Venusaur, and Rotom-W (all of which check it pretty well) It's fine at A.
Well, if it has Ice Punch or Substitute, it can get by the pokemon that you mentioned. But I think I agree, the 50 HP is the final nail in the coffin for an A+ pokemon. That's not saying it's bad at all though.
This might just be me, but I just wondered how much if anything are people missing if they do not fully invest in attack (295 if maximum...) but that's left for another thread.
If it was 65, then it could be better (Cof and Rotom work with similar HP stats and and great stats) but 50? That's asking alot for that to take, thank god it OHKOs most things before hand or later (if it isn't outaped).
You don't really have room for ice punch, and with Substitute, you should generally run more speed, meaning that you have to sacrifice even more bulk
As for your moveslots:
Play Rough is mandatory
Sucker Punch is mandatory
Swords Dance/Substitute
Knock Off/Focus Punch/Fire Fang/Brick Break
You, in general, have better options to be running. Not to mention that you don't even outspeed Lando-T, your main target.
I may reply to you on the Mawile thread if I come across anything.
And also, Rotom-W does in fact have 50 HP like Mawile, not 65.
I mostly agree with your ice punch statement. I used to run SD/SP/PR/IP, and Ice Punch was used to hit Gliscor + Lando-T on their obvious switches. I personally like using lures like that, as people almost always fall for them, but you are right, most of the moves you listed (i'd argue against Fire Fang) are typically better than Ice Punch. I now run Sub Punch with the two mandatory moves, and I'll agree it's more reliable, although I don't think speed investment is necessary.
Fire Fang is mostly there for things like Ferrothorn and Scizor on the SD sets. Speaking of Scizor, that's one pokemon whose bullet punch you want to outspeed. Otherwise, you'd have to rely on your coverage move (you may not be behind a sub if running focus punch) to hit him. Thus, you want to try and run speed evs to outpace things like scizor so that your sucker punch lands before their bullet punch. Same case with aegislash, you definitely need speed to make sure sucker punch outpaces shadow sneak. Facing aegislash is a lot easier when you can just sit back and click sucker punch, knowing he's basically forced to switch out. Speed is definitely important on sub sets (especially sub punch) and I'd suggest that you run enough to atleast outspeed scizor. If you really hate heatran, aim for him :P But usually that's a little overkill.
I can't say much about Garchomp because I haven't used it much in XY but Keldeo and Terrakion are not as good as they used to be in BW.
Keldeo suffers from absolutely horrendous coverage moves (nerfed Hidden Power and Icy Wind, that's about it), its STABs are a lot easier to wall now that perma-rain is gone and fairies/M-Venusaur exists and it can no longer sweep teams as easily as in BW because Talonflame's existance keeps it in check.
Terrakion gets trolled badly by Aegislash and its defensive type is frankly one of the worst in the game (7 weaknesses, most of them being very common). It also has to rely on the inaccurate Stone Edge a lot more often now hat ghosts and fairies are more common.
Keldeo suffers from absolutely horrendous coverage moves (nerfed Hidden Power and Icy Wind, that's about it), its STABs are a lot easier to wall now that perma-rain is gone and fairies/M-Venusaur exists and it can no longer sweep teams as easily as in BW because Talonflame's existance keeps it in check.
Terrakion gets trolled badly by Aegislash and its defensive type is frankly one of the worst in the game (7 weaknesses, most of them being very common). It also has to rely on the inaccurate Stone Edge a lot more often now hat ghosts and fairies are more common.
Garchomp is the more reliable SR user (one of the most reliable in the game), with better bulk. It also has phazing options while mostly being feared by the opponent as an offensive threat. What really makes Garchomp nice though is that Rough Skin, which is glorious when combined with Rocky Helmet and switched into Pinsir's Quick attack or any move from Talonflame (especially U-Turn).
I do agree though it's kind of meh for A+
I ve got some experience with both of them and i would say they are about even outside of Sandstorm. Garchomp has the better typing and a little more bulk while Kyurem has more power, mostly because of Terravolt. In sand though Megachomp is better because of Sand Force and the enormous boost it gives to its physical attacks. Overall id prefer Garchomp if i have the mega slot free, from my experience kyurem gets worn down pretty fast due to its Stealth Rock weakness and the need for Life Orb. Garchomp lives longer and also has the advantage that he doesnt need to mega evolve immediately to abuse its higher speed stat in its normal form.
The keldeo argument is eh, he is still the same but is hurt more than ever this Gen by sub par coverage. And I see everyone still says Bisharp A+... Ah well, whatever.
also I think making a list of we agreed upon was not advised (restated a few pages ago, but for what reason I can not recall). I still liked the idea of Deo-D going S rank though. That seemed fitting in my eyes.
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