Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)

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Reasons why Excadrill outclasses Donophan:
1. Excadrill has more than 150% of Donophan's speed
2. Addl. steel typing allows it to hit fairy and ice super effectively, which hits both super effectively
3. (# of resistances and immunities to weaknesses ratio)
Donophan 3:3
Excadrill 10:4 (10!)
4. Swords Dance: Only Excadrill has it and can take advantage of switches
5. Underrated Sand Rush on Excadrill makes it lethal w/ support (I understand it isn't reliable, but it is not considered)
6. Has a STAB that can hit flying types…

Consider this!
 
Sturdy is useless on donphan because it is counter productive with Rapid Spin (Which is the only reason you would ever use donphan).
When it switches in with SR it heals back with lefties to full health. You sir have never used donphan before cause this happens a lot.
And spikes are nonexistant in this meta

I'll go through Donophan's problems one by one. Donophan is spinblocked by literally every ghost other than aegislash. Its special bulk sucks, so it will die to gengar before it can do anything remarkable with knock off. Ice shard is pathetic and only marginally useful for two pokemon (dragonite and garchomp). The 120 base attack is lower than excadrill's and won't be that huge if you don't invest. Donophan is strictly not a good pokemon; it had a niche on sun teams last gen that it no longer has. I can't see it being anything higher than C.

Fixed.

252+ Atk Donphan Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 45-54 (13.1 - 15.8%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Magikarp Bounce vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 51-60 (14.9 - 17.5%)

Quote from last generations OU analysis.
Gengar gets KO'd by knock off, and if it doesn't, ice shard finishes the deal. Aegislash doesn't like to switch in on EQ or knock off. And who honestly spinblocks with anything else? The rare sableye, maybe. Jellicent is weirdly just completely absent this meta. Knock off both damages and cripples nearly every spinblocker out there.

Have you used donphan before? Correctly?

Ice shard is useful for a lot of pokemon. latios, landorus, thundurus, etc...
The damage is weak but youre not supposed to use it to sweep. You have the freedom of picking off a 25% hp latios. That's some nice utility for a wall.

Excadrill can't switch into shit, and is forced to run balloon, no lefties. Donphan can take support as physically defensive.

= very different niche and very different pokemon. One is an offensive spinner, one is a defensive spinner. And one has knock off, ice shard, leftovers.

onphan is a decent pokemon this generation compared to last generation because the meta has shifted to the point where bulky walls are more viable. Last gen, if a wall didn't have recovery, it was considered garbage. This gen tanks are a lot better to do their part, and eventually die. Also this gen it gets fucking knock off if I haven't said that enough. I support B- or B, or even C+, but I won't support people who have never used donphan and who are saying its completely outclassed. If you're using donphan with 252speed and 252atk then maybe it is.

Jeez how many of you have actually tried it?
 
A couple things that I have to point out
(Subject to change & in alphabetical order for now!)
Yea can this please happen already? I understand you copied and pasted the original from the BW OU thread and erased the names from that list but it would be a whole lot easier if you alphabetized the names since it would make it a lot easier for us to look through the lists when looking to nominate a pokemon for a new rank or a rank at at.

On the topic of Donphan, it blows. Like Colonel M just stated, why use it when Excadrill exists? Not only that, but this seems like the generation of the ghosts, so those spin blockers will make Donphan's job much harder to accomplish. Plus, Defog got buffed to clear the field of all hazards, thus giving RS competition for a way to remove hazards. People wanted Donphan to drop last generation, so this generation, sooner or later, it should wind up in UU.

And as a note regarding whether MegaVenasaur should be S or A+, I would say A+. The most centralizing pokemon in the tier currently is Talonflame, and the proof of that is how over used Rotom-W currently is. If you can't handle the #1 big offensive threat in the tier, than you shouldn't be considered for S rank in a defensive role.
 
You guys, putting Donphan at B- is because Excadrill DOES outclass, but not completely.

Donphan is a tank, Excadrill is not, Donphan is 3HKO-ed by Aegislash, while it OHKOes Blade-form (Donphan is slower), Excadrill cannot OHKO Shield Form, and Aegislash OHKO-es w/ Sacred Sword + Shadow Sneak.

Gengar has 50% chance of 2HKO-ing Donphan, 3HKO-ing Assault Vest, Donphan OHKO-es with Knock off. So that's for whoever said Donphan can't do anything to Gengar.

Donphan 2HKOs Jellicent with EQ + Knock off, Jellicent 3HKO Assault vest set.

Sabeleye successfully spin blocks Donphan, but also spin blocks Excadrill.

Donphan has Priority, access to Knock Off, and has way more defense than Excadrill.
Excadrill is faster, has Mold Breaker stronger EQ, has more Special defense than Donphan, more HP, and has more atk generally.

That is why Donphan is outclassed, but not completely, by Excadrill, which is A, so Donphan perfectly fits in B-
 

TROP

BAN DRUDDIGON. FIREWALL DRAGON DID NOTHING WRONG
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I had a longer post for this, but it got deleted when i hit close on my browser so TL;DR of what I had:
  • If Donphan is added to the list, it should not be higher than C-
  • The defog buff and all of its good users having reliable recovery, pretty good typings except for things like mew make it easier than ever to remove entry hazards. If i really wanted a spinner, it needs to be Excadrill, have the raw power of Mega Blastoise and its coverage, or it must have stupidly amazing bulk in at least one side even if it has a terrible typing, read Avalugg for the last one, who I would pick over Donphan 10 times out of 10 because at least it beats things like Garchomp and reliable recovery in Recover to stay around for longer.
  • Weather nerf killed its main use.
  • Inb4 but Zard y/Talonflame/Volcarona. Scizor/Mega Scizor(for Volc and Talon), Mandibuzz, and Excadrill help them a lot more because of the amazing bulk to remove the hazards easily while fucking opponent items/ lot of defensive answers with Taunt(Mandi), help in wearing the checks/counter down(Scizor, is not like a locked pursuit is as bad as Defog after you killed let's say their latias) or outright crushing them(Excadrill)
And unless Donphan comes in like choiced volt switch (this is a terrible idea anyway), Sturdy will hardly matter.

Seriously, Donphan was C in BW, and even if Rain was nerfed, being weak to water was just one of its smallest problems;I'm 100% sure Excadrill with Mold Breaker as its only ability would be low a/top b at worst in BW just because of its amazing spinning abilities and offensive power.
Even Knock Off buff which was amazing for a lot of pokemon, doesn't really help Donphan in getting past spin blockers when:
  • It is literally slower than all of them and all of them except for Aegislash(read below), have Will-o-Wisp and/or some kind of recovery to survive without their leftovers.
  • Aegislash user must have balls of steel if they are coming in a mon with Ground STAB that gets rapid spin to block it.
  • Gengar is only used for HO spinblocker, and even this frail as fuck Ghost can beat Donphan or force it to a 50-50, hardly what I would call a reliable spinner.
 
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Not to mention assault vest Excadrill. Which can rapid spin, and deal a lot more damage than donophan ever could. Besides Aegislash can 2HKO donophan with shadow ball, while donophan fails to do the same. Someone already mentioned this, but mega blastoise is a much better pokemon generally, that can get around both common spinblockers. And if you're going to run rapid spin/ knock off/ ice shard/ earthquake as people have been suggesting, then you're not taking advantage stealth rock, the only reason you would possibly want to use it over other spinners.
 
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And as a note regarding whether MegaVenasaur should be S or A+, I would say A+. The most centralizing pokemon in the tier currently is Talonflame, and the proof of that is how over used Rotom-W currently is. If you can't handle the #1 big offensive threat in the tier, than you shouldn't be considered for S rank in a defensive role.
Then you'd need to drop genesect and lucairo too, because they don't do a good job at dealing with the most centralizing presence either.

I don't think usage of threats is super relevant to the teirings at the top.

Anyway, about msaur- he can totally drop from S, but probably not in the current meta which is more based around attackers.

Also, is there a definition of walling? Too many assume it means countering, which seems wrong. I think defining this will help talking about msaur not go in circles in the future.
 

Colonel M

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When it switches in with SR it heals back with lefties to full health. You sir have never used donphan before cause this happens a lot.
And spikes are nonexistant in this meta



Gengar gets KO'd by knock off, and if it doesn't, ice shard finishes the deal. Aegislash doesn't like to switch in on EQ or knock off. And who honestly spinblocks with anything else? The rare sableye, maybe. Jellicent is weirdly just completely absent this meta. Knock off both damages and cripples nearly every spinblocker out there.

Have you used donphan before? Correctly?

Ice shard is useful for a lot of pokemon. latios, landorus, thundurus, etc...
The damage is weak but youre not supposed to use it to sweep. You have the freedom of picking off a 25% hp latios. That's some nice utility for a wall.

Excadrill can't switch into shit, and is forced to run balloon, no lefties. Donphan can take support as physically defensive.

= very different niche and very different pokemon. One is an offensive spinner, one is a defensive spinner. And one has knock off, ice shard, leftovers.

onphan is a decent pokemon this generation compared to last generation because the meta has shifted to the point where bulky walls are more viable. Last gen, if a wall didn't have recovery, it was considered garbage. This gen tanks are a lot better to do their part, and eventually die. Also this gen it gets fucking knock off if I haven't said that enough. I support B- or B, or even C+, but I won't support people who have never used donphan and who are saying its completely outclassed. If you're using donphan with 252speed and 252atk then maybe it is.

Jeez how many of you have actually tried it?
Forget blocking Rapid Spin - Donphan has a slew of issues this generation

1) It suffers from extreme 4MSS as well as competition from Defog / other spinners.
2) That is completely false on Excadrill not being able to switch into attacks. Excadrill with Balloon easily switches into Pokemon like Gliscor which rarely run Knock Off - let alone any other attacking move. Furthermore Mold Breaker Earthquake has fewer Pokemon that can wall Excadrill than Donphan. Know how much EQ from Donphan does to Rotom-W, the #1 Pokemon?

Yeah I thought so.

Sturdy is a minor gimmick that allows it to not get OHKOed. Donphan has to safely switch in to use it and if Donphan immediately switches into a Pokemon or sets up Stealth Rock it takes damage. And let's forget about the gimmicky suicide leads - most good Stealth Rock users can repeatedly come in and set it up.

You can easily lose Sturdy when using Rapid Spin too. Rocky Helmet Skarmory and Iron Barbs Ferrothorn really hamper spinners slightly this generation.

And since your desired moveset is Earthquake / Ice Shard / Rapid Spin, what is your suggested fourth move? If you use Knock Off you miss on Stealth Rock and vice-versa. And checking Latios at 25% health with Ice Shard is very unompressive when Excadrill can check Specs Latios anyway and do damage to it. Sand Rush also completely mitigates Donphans crappy niche. Meanwhile Donphan using Ice Shard to check Garchomp can get into huge trouble with Mega Garchomp. I mean max Attack Adamant barely KOes regular Garchomp as is.

Also the Terrakion calc someone provided is unimpressive. Choice Band easily 2HKOes Donphan - at best a check to Terrakion. That's one minor advantage over Excadrill. Except Excadrill's Earthquake makes sure Gengar nor Rotom-W are safe switch-ins.

Seriously using Donphan for lolIceShard is hilarious considering we have many offensive options with priority like Talonflame and Azumarill. Nevermind it being a shitty wall if you're attempting to abuse Sturdy with it. That's utterly pathetic to even call it a wall then state "well you switch into Stealth Rock". Okay, so in order to hit Sturdy range you have to force a double switch or assume the opponent is using a non-attacking move that isn't Whirlwind / Roar / WoW / Toxic / Leech Seed / etc.

Put bluntly I dont even have to touch Donphan for a single match to reach such a conclusion. When Excadrill, Starmie, and Defog exists Donphan has to rely on near-gimmicky and situational circumstances to be useful. That alone is worthy of being thrown out of B Tier.
 
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Donphan is a tank, Excadrill is not, Donphan is 3HKO-ed by Aegislash, while it OHKOes Blade-form (Donphan is slower), Excadrill cannot OHKO Shield Form, and Aegislash OHKO-es w/ Sacred Sword + Shadow Sneak.
252+ SpA Spooky Plate Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Donphan: 288-339 (75 - 88.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Spooky Plate Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Donphan: 76-90 (19.7 - 23.4%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

Donphan is going to get manhandled by the all out attacking Aegislash set, which has a chance to 2HKO with Shadow Ball and Shadow Sneak, considering Leftovers. Life Orb variants have a slight chance to flat out OHKO after Stealth Rock.
 
Then you'd need to drop genesect and lucairo too, because they don't do a good job at dealing with the most centralizing presence either.

I don't think usage of threats is super relevant to the teirings at the top.

Anyway, about msaur- he can totally drop from S, but probably not in the current meta which is more based around attackers.

Also, is there a definition of walling? Too many assume it means countering, which seems wrong. I think defining this will help talking about msaur not go in circles in the future.
You didn't understand my statement. Mega-Vena is S-rank as a defensive mon. How can you be S-rank as a defensive mon, yet not be able to handle the biggest/most important threat in the tier?
 
When it switches in with SR it heals back with lefties to full health. You sir have never used donphan before cause this happens a lot.
And spikes are nonexistant in this meta



Gengar gets KO'd by knock off, and if it doesn't, ice shard finishes the deal. Aegislash doesn't like to switch in on EQ or knock off. And who honestly spinblocks with anything else? The rare sableye, maybe. Jellicent is weirdly just completely absent this meta. Knock off both damages and cripples nearly every spinblocker out there.

Have you used donphan before? Correctly?

Ice shard is useful for a lot of pokemon. latios, landorus, thundurus, etc...
The damage is weak but youre not supposed to use it to sweep. You have the freedom of picking off a 25% hp latios. That's some nice utility for a wall.

Excadrill can't switch into shit, and is forced to run balloon, no lefties. Donphan can take support as physically defensive.

= very different niche and very different pokemon. One is an offensive spinner, one is a defensive spinner. And one has knock off, ice shard, leftovers.

onphan is a decent pokemon this generation compared to last generation because the meta has shifted to the point where bulky walls are more viable. Last gen, if a wall didn't have recovery, it was considered garbage. This gen tanks are a lot better to do their part, and eventually die. Also this gen it gets fucking knock off if I haven't said that enough. I support B- or B, or even C+, but I won't support people who have never used donphan and who are saying its completely outclassed. If you're using donphan with 252speed and 252atk then maybe it is.

Jeez how many of you have actually tried it?
Excadrill can switch into multiple things, and it always has been able to. Also, sableye is NOT rare by any means, and donphan gets raped by that shit. Balloon aegi can successfully spinblock with two Shadow Balls, as can sableye with WoW + recover. Furthermore, Excadrill can definitely go defensive; Assault Vest Excadrill is one of the best AV users out there. AV donphan really has nothing on it except knock off (i'm not counting its weak Ice Shard, which does pitiful damage). Donphan is deserving of C rank, nothing more.
 

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I agree with everyone that Donphan really isn't good. It is slow as all hell, and it is incredibly strapped for moveslots. Donphan has no recovery, and it needs defensive investment to do well. Maybe Donphan can get off a spin or two, but outside of that, Donphan actually has pretty bad offensive presence, and since it barely walls any relevant threats, it's rather useless tbh. The fact that Donphan struggles against Aegislash and Gengar is just the nail in the coffin imo, since Spinning is the only reason Donphan ever would be used. Even then, Donphan can easily get overwhelmed by repeated assaults and especially the very hazards it is supposed to be removing. Donphan simply struggles to stay alive and I'd much rather use Excadrill or even Starmie for spinning. In addition, as a general hazard remover, there's also Mandibuzz, Scizor, Latias, and even Crobat all of which have reliable recovery and don't get blocked from removing hazards. I can't see it above C tbh,
 
252+ SpA Spooky Plate Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Donphan: 288-339 (75 - 88.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Spooky Plate Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Donphan: 76-90 (19.7 - 23.4%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

Donphan is going to get manhandled by the all out attacking Aegislash set, which has a chance to 2HKO with Shadow Ball and Shadow Sneak, considering Leftovers. Life Orb variants have a slight chance to flat out OHKO after Stealth Rock.
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Donphan: 208-247 (54.1 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Donphan: 312-368 (81.2 - 95.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The turn you are using Shadow Ball, you are getting KO-ed by EQ regardless if you have priority next turn.
252+ SpA / 252 Atk Aegislash is something I've never experience before, most of what I see is 252 HP to handle LO recoil or faster Priority.

I had a longer post for this, but it got deleted when i hit close on my browser so TL;DR of what I had:
  • If Donphan is added to the list, it should not be higher than C-
  • The defog buff and all of its good users having reliable recovery, pretty good typings except for things like mew make it easier than ever to remove entry hazards. If i really wanted a spinner, it needs to be Excadrill, have the raw power of Mega Blastoise and its coverage, or it must have stupidly amazing bulk in at least one side even if it has a terrible typing, read Avalugg for the last one, who I would pick over Donphan 10 times out of 10 because at least it beats things like Garchomp and reliable recovery in Recover to stay around for longer.
  • Weather nerf killed its main use.
  • Inb4 but Zard y/Talonflame/Volcarona. Scizor/Mega Scizor(for Volc and Talon), Mandibuzz, and Excadrill help them a lot more because of the amazing bulk to remove the hazards easily while fucking opponent items/ lot of defensive answers with Taunt(Mandi), help in wearing the checks/counter down(Scizor, is not like a locked pursuit is as bad as Defog after you killed let's say their latias) or outright crushing them(Excadrill)
And unless Donphan comes in like choiced volt switch (this is a terrible idea anyway), Sturdy will hardly matter.

Seriously, Donphan was C in BW, and even if Rain was nerfed, being weak to water was just one of its smallest problems;I'm 100% sure Excadrill with Mold Breaker as its only ability would be low a/b at worst in BW just because of its amazing spinning abilities and offensive power.
Even Knock Off buff which was amazing for a lot of pokemon, doesn't really help Donphan in getting past spin blockers when:
  • It is literally slower than all of them and all of them except for Aegislash(read below), have Will-o-Wisp and/or some kind of recovery to survive without their leftovers.
  • Aegislash user must have balls of steel if they are coming in a mon with Ground STAB that gets rapid spin to block it.
  • Gengar is only used for HO spinblocker, and even this frail as fuck Ghost can beat Donphan or force it to a 50-50, hardly what I would call a reliable spinner.
Gengar has 50% chance of 2HKO-ing Donphan, 3HKO-ing Assault Vest, Donphan OHKO-es with Knock off. So I don't think Gengar is winning.
Black Sludge Gengar OHKO-es Excadrill 1/4 of the times with Focus Blast, so Excadrill is not a reliable switch-in either.

Donphan is better when it comes to Aegislash.

Excadrill gets Jellicent which Donphan can't. Sabeleye spinblocks both very badly. Chandelure OHKO-es Excadrill w/ Fire Blast, while 2HKO-es Donphan with Energy Ball, Donphan is winning here. I'm talking about Choice Scarf Chandelure here tho. LO Chandelure OHKOes AV Excadrill, but 2HKOes AV Donphan.

Is Donphan worse than Excadrill? Yes, is it completely eclipsed by it? Maybe. Donphan definitely deserves B-/C+, But I don't agree as putting it as low as C-, because it has situational usage, and Knock off is extremely good, both for utility and damage.
 
And as a note regarding whether MegaVenasaur should be S or A+, I would say A+. The most centralizing pokemon in the tier currently is Talonflame, and the proof of that is how over used Rotom-W currently is. If you can't handle the #1 big offensive threat in the tier, than you shouldn't be considered for S rank in a defensive role.
I think there's somewhat of a bias against defensive pokemon in the S tier. To be effective (to the degree of being S) an offensive pokemon needs to be able to sweep through almost all the metagame. Otherwise it can be countered by pokes that will become popular and it becomes significantly harder to use properly. To do this they have coverage moves. However, coverage defensive typing doesn't exist (only two types max). Instead, they must exist in defensive cores. Because defensive pokemon come in cores, a defensive mon should only have to easily wall a significant swath of the meta (instead of nearly all of it as would an offensive poke) to qualify as S rank. Just because Mega venesaur falls short against a few pokes like mega pinsir, talonflame, and, as someone mentioned earlier, +2 Cloyster (what can wall that anyways), doesn't mean that its going to stay in for those attacks. Because only a few offensive pokemon can get through mega venesaur, it doesn't need that much support in the form of defensive core members. Because of this, I would say that Venesaur definitely deserves its S rank status.

Besides that, since when has talonflame been the most centralizing pokemon in the tier?
 
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Colonel M

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Now we're suggesting AV Donphan...

...No. Just no. Without Leftovers one of Donphan's gimmicks suddenly disappears - Sturdy while being resistant to Stealth Rock. Also it completely prevents Donphan from using Stealth Rock as well. I'm not even a huge fan of AV Excadrill (ffs run Chople Berry if youre that scared).
 

TROP

BAN DRUDDIGON. FIREWALL DRAGON DID NOTHING WRONG
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3HKO-ing Assault Vest
You have 2 seconds to justify this over Mega Blastoise. Because if I really wanted a non Excadrill spinner with no leftovers, picking the spinner that can actually OHKO most of them(Sableye, Jellicent, and Aegislash being the exception), has superior bulk depending on the spread, and the ever useful scald is a better choice. And Mega Blastoise himself is B at best and already totally outclasses Donphan.
 
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Donphan: 208-247 (54.1 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Donphan: 312-368 (81.2 - 95.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The turn you are using Shadow Ball, you are getting KO-ed by EQ regardless if you have priority next turn.
252+ SpA / 252 Atk Aegislash is something I've never experience before, most of what I see is 252 HP to handle LO recoil or faster Priority.
Now we're suggesting AV Donphan...

...No. Just no. Without Leftovers one of Donphan's gimmicks suddenly disappears - Sturdy while being resistant to Stealth Rock. Also it completely prevents Donphan from using Stealth Rock as well. I'm not even a huge fan of AV Excadrill (ffs run Chople Berry if youre that scared).
Also
0 Atk Donphan Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 180-212 (68.9 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Given how Mixed Slash runs Quiet, you aren't hitting it in Blade Forme and won't be KOing it unless it has prior damage, which, to be fair, is likely, but its still shit given how you're supposed to check Aegislash in the first place.
 
Forget blocking Rapid Spin - Donphan has a slew of issues this generation

1) It suffers from extreme 4MSS as well as competition from Defog / other spinners.
2) That is completely false on Excadrill not being able to switch into attacks. Excadrill with Balloon easily switches into Pokemon like Gliscor which rarely run Knock Off - let alone any other attacking move. Furthermore Mold Breaker Earthquake has fewer Pokemon that can wall Excadrill than Donphan. Know how much EQ from Donphan does to Rotom-W, the #1 Pokemon?

Yeah I thought so.

Sturdy is a minor gimmick that allows it to not get OHKOed. Donphan has to safely switch in to use it and if Donphan immediately switches into a Pokemon or sets up Stealth Rock it takes damage. And let's forget about the gimmicky suicide leads - most good Stealth Rock users can repeatedly come in and set it up.

You can easily lose Sturdy when using Rapid Spin too. Rocky Helmet Skarmory and Iron Barbs Ferrothorn really hamper spinners slightly this generation.

And since your desired moveset is Earthquake / Ice Shard / Rapid Spin, what is your suggested fourth move? If you use Knock Off you miss on Stealth Rock and vice-versa. And checking Latios at 25% health with Ice Shard is very unompressive when Excadrill can check Specs Latios anyway and do damage to it. Sand Rush also completely mitigates Donphans crappy niche. Meanwhile Donphan using Ice Shard to check Garchomp can get into huge trouble with Mega Garchomp. I mean max Attack Adamant barely KOes regular Garchomp as is.

Also the Terrakion calc someone provided is unimpressive. Choice Band easily 2HKOes Donphan - at best a check to Terrakion. That's one minor advantage over Excadrill. Except Excadrill's Earthquake makes sure Gengar nor Rotom-W are safe switch-ins.

Seriously using Donphan for lolIceShard is hilarious considering we have many offensive options with priority like Talonflame and Azumarill. Nevermind it being a shitty wall if you're attempting to abuse Sturdy with it. That's utterly pathetic to even call it a wall then state "well you switch into Stealth Rock". Okay, so in order to hit Sturdy range you have to force a double switch or assume the opponent is using a non-attacking move that isn't Whirlwind / Roar / WoW / Toxic / Leech Seed / etc.

Put bluntly I dont even have to touch Donphan for a single match to reach such a conclusion. When Excadrill, Starmie, and Defog exists Donphan has to rely on near-gimmicky and situational circumstances to be useful. That alone is worthy of being thrown out of B Tier.
Well this will be my final post on donphan because enough is enuf.

Extreme 4MSS? Donphan only has 5 viable moves in the first place... stop talking about things you don't know. EQ, Rapid spin, SR, Knock off, Ice shard. I personally forgo SR (especially if you want to vest up) but you can forgo ice shard too if you want, since knock off is effective on nearly every pokemon, but I don't recommend it.


Rotom W is a good switch in to donphan, but not exactly just cause of knock off being hot. Also it's not like rotom wash spinblocks donphan like in Gen4. Donphan shouldn't be spamming EQ in the first place, since that would be fucking retarded. Donphan will be using knock off and rapid spin more often, and ice shard when it's appropriate. I repeat, ice shard is useful.

Luckily for donpahn, it can repeatedly switch into most SR users cause of its typing. Something few defoggers can do. It faces competition from skarmory, but I don't like skarmory with defog cause it can't do much back besides toxic/taunt, which is not my cup of tea. In the end donphan can easily be chosen by teams as its spinner based on the team's needs and synergies. Excadrill is a better pokemon, but it's pretty different. If anything skarmory is a better comparison, and can defog, but doesn't have priority or knock off. Mega blastoise requires a megastone, and isn't even as bulky defensively, ESPECIALLY when you run 252 spatk+

Put bluntly I don't think you need to type more than single sentence for me to know you've never used donphan, so you didn't have to tell me. I still think it's fair for B-.

Now we're suggesting AV Donphan...

...No. Just no. Without Leftovers one of Donphan's gimmicks suddenly disappears - Sturdy while being resistant to Stealth Rock. Also it completely prevents Donphan from using Stealth Rock as well. I'm not even a huge fan of AV Excadrill (ffs run Chople Berry if youre that scared).
SR is honestly optional. I run 4 attacks and it's a good set. So there's no opportunity cost (move wise) for AV in my case.

Your opinion of C- is rather extreme, and you haven't used it. Perhaps your playstyle isn't one for donphan, in the same way I don't like to use offensive rapid spinners, which are clunky to use. Plus its not like excadrill is spinning in the sand like it was last gen, which was broke. Either way I think this is C+ at the lowest
 
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Meru

ate them up
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I really can't agree with Mega-Venusaur at S-rank at all. Even if it is currently the cornerstore to keeping stall teams viable, stall teams have taken a huge blow in this meta and might not even be able to be considered an S-rank playstyle anymore. Not to mention Stall greatly appreciates Sand Stream, which Venusaur cannot function in, severely limiting the residual damage output of the supposed playstyle it's "supporting".

Calculations are cool and all, but they don't even take into account the burdens of being a defensive pokemon with reliance on a Mega Stone, which not only forfeits the always-underappreciated Leftovers recovery, but is also inherently worse on Pokemon that are supposed to survive 2HKOs. In many scenarios, Venusaur can kick it to the curb before even mega-evolving, let alone before even getting to move as a mega form. Altogether, these aspects make Mega Venusaur just a notch below S-rank, in A+ rank where it belongs.
 
I really can't agree with Mega-Venusaur at S-rank at all. Even if it is currently the cornerstore to keeping stall teams viable, stall teams have taken a huge blow in this meta and might not even be able to be considered an S-rank playstyle anymore. Not to mention Stall greatly appreciates Sand Stream, which Venusaur cannot function in, severely limiting the residual damage output of the supposed playstyle it's "supporting".
We're ranking the pokemon, not the playstyle.

There is no rule saying Venusuar is limited alone to stall. I've found it to work rather well on Bulky Offense. And even if stall was completely useless, that doesn't change the fact that it walls a significant portion of the metagame.
Calculations are cool and all, but they don't even take into account its reliance on its Mega Stone, which not only forfeits the always-underappreciated Leftovers recovery, but is also inherently worse on Pokemon that are supposed to survive 2HKOs. In many scenarios, Venusaur can kick it to the curb before even mega-evolving, let alone before even getting to move as a mega form. Altogether, these aspects make Mega Venusaur just a notch below S-rank, in A+ rank where it belongs.
I've found it rather easy to lead with Venusuar, with all those Genesects and Greninjas leading in pretty much all other teams. And even when not, it can still swap into pokemon like Rotom-W, Azumaril, and Gyarados easily to mega evolve later in the match.

And while it carries no leftovers, Heatran and Ferrothorn don't carry any instant recovery, yet they function just fine. I've used 'Saur to great success. If you know when to heal, it's actually rather easy to make up for the lack of leftovers.
 
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