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I just skipped the last three pages to see whether people were still talking about mega venusaur, and guess what I found. How about we just move on to something else already? Very good arguments have been stated as to why it is S-tier, and the objections have never really addressed those arguments. If you really, really feel the need to post about mega-venusaur, read the last ten pages or so and see if anyone has made your point already. If you have something new to say, then maybe we can discuss it again.
About donphan, I can see it having a small niche same as it did last gen, probably somewhere in C. It really shouldn't be compared to excadrill, it's a lot more like mega-blastoise. While mega-blastoise in general would be a better bulky attacking spinner, donphan gets a niche by having leftovers and not taking up the mega slot. Ice shard isn't terrible either.
I just skipped the last three pages to see whether people were still talking about mega venusaur, and guess what I found. How about we just move on to something else already? Very good arguments have been stated as to why it is S-tier, and the objections have never really addressed those arguments. If you really, really feel the need to post about mega-venusaur, read the last ten pages or so and see if anyone has made your point already. If you have something new to say, then maybe we can discuss it again.
About donphan, I can see it having a small niche same as it did last gen, probably somewhere in C. It really shouldn't be compared to excadrill, it's a lot more like mega-blastoise. While mega-blastoise in general would be a better bulky attacking spinner, donphan gets a niche by having leftovers and not taking up the mega slot. Ice shard isn't terrible either.
Donphan was actually good last gen, lots of people used it including gr8stard sometimes. This gen it it really bad, like really bad. I used to really like it but now it is bad, stay away!
I completely didn't see Mega Blastiose in the B tier. Which outclasses Donphan with Mega Launcher Dark Pulse and extreme bulk. Though takes a mega slot.
If Mega Blastiose is in B tier, then I'd completely agree on Donphan being in the C tier.
Can we move on though? As Donphan and Mega Venosaur discussions have been discussed enough imo.
Somebody suggested Crobat in B tier a few pages ago, Crobat did get some new niches and did get a review IIRC, so what are everybody's thoughts?
Well, I used crobat a bit, and I think that its biggest issue is 4MSS. It has a lot of great options, and you lose out on a lot no matter which you pick. That said, the fastest hazard removal available (not counting sand rush excadrill) is pretty cool, it has awesome defensive typing and bulk, and can do a lot of different useful things depending on what moves you go with. I just always felt like I could do way, way more with an extra move slot for taunt or super fang or hypnosis or any of its other options.
And while it carries no leftovers, Heatran and Ferrothorn don't carry any instant recovery, yet they function just fine. I've used 'Saur to great success. If you know when to heal, it's actually rather easy to make up for the lack of leftovers.
Heatran thrives off of its immunities and quad resistances, neither of which Venusaur has (except to Grass), while also having the wear and tear problem (hence not S-rank...), and Ferrothorn has Leech Seed, and typically sets up on defensive pokemon. Also, neither of them lose health under Sand Stream, which is a huge boon to their walling capacities.
I just skipped the last three pages to see whether people were still talking about mega venusaur, and guess what I found. How about we just move on to something else already? Very good arguments have been stated as to why it is S-tier, and the objections have never really addressed those arguments. If you really, really feel the need to post about mega-venusaur, read the last ten pages or so and see if anyone has made your point already. If you have something new to say, then maybe we can discuss it again.
Those arguments could very well apply to M-Venusaur being A+ rank, which was what I was trying to argue. Go ahead and go back to the last ten pages and see if anybody has made the points that I just made. No need to be snarky just because I disagree with you, especially when you're being wrong alongside it.
Crobat is insanely weak and it's only niche is to spam U-Turn/Taunt and Defog every once in a blue moon. I'm not trusting a scout that's weak to SR and he's really too weak and frail to function as anything else. He's C at best. His niche was a Defog user before Pokebank came out and now that it has he has no niche except the same as last gen which is spam U-Turn/Taunt as a scout. I'm not sure what the Infiltrator buff has to do with anything when Noivern uses it much better (Noivern DM is stronger than a Crobat BB).
Well, I used crobat a bit, and I think that its biggest issue is 4MSS. It has a lot of great options, and you lose out on a lot no matter which you pick. That said, the fastest hazard removal available (not counting sand rush excadrill) is pretty cool, it has awesome defensive typing and bulk, and can do a lot of different useful things depending on what moves you go with. I just always felt like I could do way, way more with an extra move slot for taunt or super fang or hypnosis or any of its other options.
Don't forget infiltrator buff, and the heavier the 4MSS the more versatile it is, which is good & bad. Crobat is extremely fast and a fast taunt is very appreciated, has U-Turn to keep momentum, Roost to heal off, Defog to remove hazards & Screens, Hypnosis to get 1-3 free turns, Super Fang to do some good damage without investment, and amazing typing letting you resist Grass & common fighting 4 times, while being immune to common EQ & poison. Infiltrator means it gets to use Defog & Hypnosis through Sub, which is really good IMO (I have raged way too many times when the foe subs on my mandibuzz), and is a really helpful scout. That 130 Base speed is outspeeding most of the unboosted metagame with Jolly. I don't know where to put it though. Mandibuzz partially outclasses it, so B- isn't too bad I guess.
Those arguments could very well apply to M-Venusaur being A+ rank, which was what I was trying to argue. Go ahead and go back to the last ten pages and see if anybody has made the points that I just made. No need to be snarky just because I disagree with you, especially when you're being wrong alongside it.
Everything about Mega-Venusaur's recovery has been covered several times, the mega-evolution turn is a very minor issue since it can switch into many things without being mega-evolved, and sand stall (and rain stall and sun stall) isn't nearly as huge as it used to be because of the weather nerf.
I apologize if I was being snarky, I just meant to convey my frustration that we're still discussing the same thing after ten five (I guess it only felt that long) pages without getting anywhere.
EDIT: I meant to say something about Crobat but professional basically made all of my points, although I agree with homeslice that infiltrator isn't all that great. Also I'm pretty sure defog works even if the opponent has sub, doesn't it?
I really can't agree with Mega-Venusaur at S-rank at all. Even if it is currently the cornerstore to keeping stall teams viable, stall teams have taken a huge blow in this meta and might not even be able to be considered an S-rank playstyle anymore. Not to mention Stall greatly appreciates Sand Stream, which Venusaur cannot function in, severely limiting the residual damage output of the supposed playstyle it's "supporting".
Calculations are cool and all, but they don't even take into account the burdens of being a defensive pokemon with reliance on a Mega Stone, which not only forfeits the always-underappreciated Leftovers recovery, but is also inherently worse on Pokemon that are supposed to survive 2HKOs. In many scenarios, Venusaur can kick it to the curb before even mega-evolving, let alone before even getting to move as a mega form. Altogether, these aspects make Mega Venusaur just a notch below S-rank, in A+ rank where it belongs.
I really thought we were finishing up the venusaur argument. Anyway, weather stall is dead, so I don't believe it should have any effect on venusaur's ranking. Venusaur is more than capable of putting out damage, whether its by leech seed or spamming giga drain or whatever. The calcs show it can take hits like a boss and I don't really know what more we can show you people.
All that said, I think there is a valid argument against Venusaur for S rank, and its that I kept track of which pokemon I fought for 50 of my battles (on my low 2000s account, I really don't trust usage stats) and in that, of the 300 pokemon, I saw 2 latiases, 2 latioses, 6 espeons, 1 Alakazam, 9 Talonflames, 1 Pinsir, 1 crobat and 3 guardevoirs. That's 25/300 or 1/12 of the pokemon out there that seriously threaten it. I personally think its partially because of how good venusaur is that the stats were like that, so I'd say S rank is justified, but if, on average, half the teams I fought had direct answers to venusaur, maybe somebody could say it doesn't wall as big of the metagame as people say.
As for the donphan thing, I said on the very first page that I think it should be C because in 9/10 situations, you'll want to use excadrill instead, but there are those situations where donphan would be better, and a team can be built around the difference very easily. I might want to raise it just a little, but for now I'm sticking with C.
Extreme 4MSS? Donphan only has 5 viable moves in the first place... stop talking about things you don't know. EQ, Rapid spin, SR, Knock off, Ice shard. I personally forgo SR (especially if you want to vest up) but you can forgo ice shard too if you want, since knock off is effective on nearly every pokemon, but I don't recommend it.
Really I don't know? Hm let's see... there's Ice Fang for starters which can 2HKO Gliscor. Gliscor easily switches into Donphan and can Toxic to shut down Donphan's "bulk" (lol). What about Seed Bomb for Rotom-W? With max Attack Seed Bomb has a 10.5% chance to 2HKO. That may not seem like a lot but at least it scares off Donphan's potential counter as well. And what about Stone Edge which has also been forgotten? Stone Edge (and Rock Slide) are your best weapons against Gyarados. Substitute Gyarados can switch into Donphan provided it isn't using Knock Off and Substitute in front of it. Knock Off does a hilarious 21.8 - 26% which means it might not even break the Substitute. That's fucking pathetic. Stone Edge also guarantees that Pinsir (and then Mega Pinisir) doesn't obtain a free switch-in and a free Swords Dance. Since Pinsir can simply Swords Dance on the potential Earthquake (EQ + Ice Shard won't KO unless there's some prior damage) it can KO with +2 Return if Sturdy isn't up. And even if it misses? Big deal - Quick Attack finishes it off. Stone Edge guarantees that Charizard doesn't get a free switch-in either who can otherwise switch into Donphan and simply Mega Evolve right in front of its face.
Well shit, I never used Donphan and I named off at the very least two very potent attacks with a possible third.
Rotom W is a good switch in to donphan, but not exactly just cause of knock off being hot. Also it's not like rotom wash spinblocks donphan like in Gen4. Donphan shouldn't be spamming EQ in the first place, since that would be fucking retarded. Donphan will be using knock off and rapid spin more often, and ice shard when it's appropriate. I repeat, ice shard is useful.
Wait, so you're never using Earthquake because... its resisted and immune to a lot of Donphan's switch-ins?
Guess who doesn't have that problem - lolExcadrill.
Seriously when you're stating you can't even abuse your STAB attack something is terribly wrong. Knock Off has utility but Ice Shard is a goddamn joke. In fact let me just clue you in on an idea - guess what Ice Shard hits for SE on the Top 10?
1 - Garchomp.
How about in the Top 20?
4 - Garchomp, Landorus-T, Gliscor, Dragonite
Your utility seems rather underwhelming consider two are tanks, one can carry Yache Berry or threaten Donphan with STAB Draco Meteor (36 SpA Mega Garchomp Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Donphan: 255-300 (66.4 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery). I mean you're really grasping at straws here when you're mentioning Ice Shard. Too bad Ice Shard doesn't solve Mega Gyarados. Oh well - guess you can't beat them all.
Luckily for donpahn, it can repeatedly switch into most SR users cause of its typing. Something few defoggers can do. It faces competition from skarmory, but I don't like skarmory with defog cause it can't do much back besides toxic/taunt, which is not my cup of tea. In the end donphan can easily be chosen by teams as its spinner based on the team's needs and synergies. Excadrill is a better pokemon, but it's pretty different. If anything skarmory is a better comparison, and can defog, but doesn't have priority or knock off. Mega blastoise requires a megastone, and isn't even as bulky defensively, ESPECIALLY when you run 252 spatk+
Mega Blastoise is even better were it not for the Mega slot cost. Mega Blastoise actually does something Donphan would beg to do - massive damage to its potential spinblockers, Stealth Rock users, and still function as a powerhouse when not utilizing Rapid Spin.
Also, Donphan cannot repeatedly switch into most Stealth Rock users. It cannot switch into Ferrothorn with Power Whip (nor Leech Seed for that matter). It cannot switch into Landorus-T safely (Earthquake can 3HKO with Stealth Rock). It even has to watch out for Tyranitar packing Ice Beam (Ice Beam 14.883%). Someone already calculated Terrakion to 2HKO Donphan sometimes which is another Stealth Rock user. Gliscor can simply Toxic Donphan on the switch-in. Skarmory isn't even close to scared of Donphan. Switching Donphan into Heatran risks being burnt by Lava Plume 30% of the time or affected by Toxic. Mamoswine just crushes you.
That's about it. The only Stealth Rock users Donphan can really safely switch into is Tyranitar (sometimes), Metagross, and Jirachi. Metagross is decaying very quickly anyway. So really your statement is at best laughable.
Defog users also have a very specific thing Donphan would kill to have - recovery. Latias, Zapdos, Togekiss, Flygon, Scizor, Mandibuzz, and Skarmory all have access to Defog, are sturdy, and can actually recover lost health. There's also offensive Defog users such as Latios that can work well on offensive teams. Overall - Defog users may not be able to switch into some of the Stealth Rock users easily; however, they are guaranteed to stay healthier than Donphan most of the time and can utilize many different functions. They are not suited to just one role like Donphan practically is.
And that's what makes Donphan worse than all of these Pokemon.
Put bluntly I don't think you need to type more than single sentence for me to know you've never used donphan, so you didn't have to tell me. I still think it's fair for B-.
Honestly. I would argue D+ for him. C range seems stupidly generous for such a useless, inferior, and dead-weight Pokemon. Donphan is not built for OU. Until you get that drilled into your head you will never be able to climb the ranks.
The biggest problems it still faces are Tyranitar is still up there in usage and can fuck around with non-Moonblast Cresselia. Genesect and Scizor are also still very high in popularity and have STAB U-turn to dent her. Aegislash, Greninja, and Gengar still rank up there too and few Pokemon resist Dark- and Ghost-type attacks anymore - the types that Cresselia are weak against. If only it were Fairy / Psychic. I expected so much from her.
But otherwise - she has improved a bit. Definitely not as dead-weight as she was in 5th Gen IMO. But meh. Cresselia could be worse off.
That Psychic type though doesn't help her. She is weak to dark and ghost, probably the two most improved attacking types this generation. Aegislash just screws her over. Her only niche would probably be dual screens + Lunar Dance on an offensive team. Though klefki does dual screens better, Lunar Dance is awesome for getting crippled sweepers back in form. I don't see her being very good in singles OU once again. However, she is still amazing in doubles.
Considering the state of the ladder, plenty of people are frustrated with running those mons and proceeded to run pure garbage for the sake of it and see how far they can get. Entrainment Durant, Baton pass to a Castform or Delcatty, Delibird-based teams, all kind of shit is around now by good players using alts just for the sake of it. I am one of those people myself, and played plenty of games in Pokébank OU and just a few in current OU, only using a team with Ledian on it and other things residing not in OU.
Screw Genesect, bury MegaLuke under twenty feet of soil and blast everything else that is OU. Frustration galore!
The fact that too many broken things were just released like that caused people to run around with shitty gimmicks and joke teams, I encountered quite a few of those in the past few days.
As such, I can't really say much about the viability of current OU or Gen V OU mons (bar that I despise using them because they aren't fun on the ladder), but can really say that so many previous NU mons are extremely underestimated in how much they can check and counter and otherwise screw over, even though they are likely going to end up in NU again this generation, I see them all having their niches in OU (D rank / C- rank, mostly)
Eelektross is underestimated in every tier it resides in, and will need dedicated support to function in higher tiers. Eelektross has ridiculous coverage and can wreck basically everything if given a boost. Needs Baton Pass support because it can't boost itself on the special side, whereas physical sets need Heal Bell support, but it can muscle through Blissey without SE hits or boosting even if only running Special attacks thanks to Acid Spray, which is ridiculous. It can also run Superpower on a mixed set which also nukes Blissey.
Furthermore, there is absolutely nothing that can counter Eelektross more than once. Excadrill can switch into Flamethrower once but certainly not twice, and other Earthquake users can't even hit it for SE damage at all.
Eelektross has a defensive Coil set, an Acid Spray set, a defensive set with Roar and Toxic and T-Wave, a Choiced pivot set with U-Turn and/or Volt Switch. There are only very few offensive moves it doesn't have but also misses some moves that could be useful.
However, as I said, it has its flaws like its low speed as well as Excadrill and various others, and as such needs a LOT of support. I suggest it to be put in D-rank.
Now, I'll bring in some suggestions of my own. D-rank is so empty but so many mons have their uses to be put in there. I suggest Exploud, Golem and Mismagius for D-rank
Exploud: STAB Boomburst, all you need. It is also a solid check to Garchomp and many other mons, being bulky enough to tank a hit and deal solid damage back.
But it isn't without (a whole host) of flaws, like being relatively frail if it comes to taking boosted attacks or SE attacks, it is pretty slow, and only 91 Base SpA makes sure its coverage moves won't do much damage without a boost (and Exploud has no boosting moves at all), making Boomburst somewhat predictable and abuseable. Baton Pass support is very helpful for Exploud, whatever it may be, a Quiver Dance or a Shell Smash, and it's going to wreck house on the spot. Exploud's Boomburst can hit Ghosts thanks to Scrappy, which is great, though; specially defensive Ghosts are absolutely uncapable of switching into Exploud without being in grave danger.
Golem: Checking half the metagame as long as Sturdy is active (and a significant number even without Sturdy) and countering Talonflame cannot be underestimated. It has enough attack to hurt a lot (Earthquake, Rock Blast, Sucker Punch, Fire Punch/Explosion/Stealth Rock), and it won't invest in Speed but will in HP, allowing it to take significant punishment on the physical side. Just don't let it get hit by Grass/Water attacks.
It needs support though, it does not want its Sturdy to be broken by hazards especially if running Lum Berry instead of Leftovers. Wish support is also great. But Golem has very serious flaws of which you need to be aware, but if used correctly it is still a powerful asset.
Mismagius: Gengar, just slightly worse stats. It lacks the advantages and also the disadvantages of the Poison-typing, has Power Gem instead of Focus Blast (if you need a fast ghost that isn't set-up fodder for Volcarona/ZardY), and is somewhat less frail on the Special side, but has to pay with slightly less Special attack and Speed.
But it can do anything Gengar does otherwise. Also, unlike Gengar, Mismagius beats Landorus if it attempts to check while SR is in play, so there's that as well (a Spooky Plate or Life Orb on Missy is recommended though).
A slightly different variant of Gengar, usually outclassed by it (as Gengar and Mismagius have the same flaws but Mismagius is slightly slower and weaker), but still having its own minor niche.
I'm sorry for bringing up such an old post but it rings true. I've been experiencing a lot of NU (and other low tier) Pokemon lurking on higher end teams. Admittedly I'm only in the 1700's but I mess around with other teams a lot so that messes up my score.....
Point is, a lot of low tier Pokemon ate up to snuff to do some damage in ou.
However I know a post like this can cause a lot of ugliness do what I'm going to list are not Pokemon that are considered OU in terms of usage/raw power but rather some low tier Pokemon I've seen preform very well against top tier Pokemon.
-AV tangrowth is a monstrous wall
-Sacred fire entei punches holes and spreads status
- infiltrator chandelure
- specs raichu (call me crazy I honestly don't even care at this point but the speed boost it got let's it run specs/band and with lightingrod, can switch in on jolteon, rotom w and the like)
- specs scrappy exploud
Among others. Again, I want to reiterate that these Pokemon are among some I've seen survive without being deadweight in ou right now NOT worthy of being considered ou
Crobat is insanely weak and it's only niche is to spam U-Turn/Taunt and Defog every once in a blue moon. I'm not trusting a scout that's weak to SR and he's really too weak and frail to function as anything else. He's C at best. His niche was a Defog user before Pokebank came out and now that it has he has no niche except the same as last gen which is spam U-Turn/Taunt as a scout. I'm not sure what the Infiltrator buff has to do with anything when Noivern uses it much better (Noivern DM is stronger than a Crobat BB).
Crobat packs Brave Bird and has a higher attack than Talonflame. Taunt + BB threatens a lot of things, his typing and stats grant him acceptable bulk despite the SR weakness and he's even graced with Roost. Frankly he's far, far better than Noivern, Flying is a better offensive type than Dragon in this meta and unlike Noviern Crobat can spam him STAB without having to worry about it losing power. There is very little that Noivern can do better than Crobat aside from small niches like Trick and revenge killing Dragons. Crobat's STAB also hits most notable Sub users out there right now (baring Kyurem, which I'll admit Noivern is far better against), and those that it doesn't hit SE tend to be specially oriented like Gengar so he'll do more damage anyways. Crobat>Noivern. I'd say B-/B is a solid rank for Crobat, C is FAR too low.
I think there's somewhat of a bias against defensive pokemon in the S tier. To be effective (to the degree of being S) an offensive pokemon needs to be able to sweep through almost all the metagame. Otherwise it can be countered by pokes that will become popular and it becomes significantly harder to use properly. To do this they have coverage moves. However, coverage defensive typing doesn't exist (only two types max). Instead, they must exist in defensive cores. Because defensive pokemon come in cores, a defensive mon should only have to easily wall a significant swath of the meta (instead of nearly all of it as would an offensive poke) to qualify as S rank. Just because Mega venesaur falls short against a few pokes like mega pinsir, talonflame, and, as someone mentioned earlier, +2 Cloyster (what can wall that anyways), doesn't mean that its going to stay in for those attacks. Because only a few offensive pokemon can get through mega venesaur, it doesn't need that much support in the form of defensive core members. Because of this, I would say that Venesaur definitely deserves its S rank status.
I don't agree with this either. A good example of an S-rank defensive pokemon was RU Cresselia, who walled all but ~4 Pokemon, none of which could switch in, all while boasting an immunity to Spikes, and having its own Leftovers.
Contrast that to Venusaur, who has better resistances, but has many more checks, a serious case of 4MSS, isn't immune to any entry hazards, gets screwed by weather conditions, and has to use a mega stone. People seriously underestimate Leftovers all the time. The only bias against defensive pokemon is that Gamefreak is stingy about giving out reliable recovery. I still don't think M-Venusaur is S-rank worthy, but since the same 4 people keep harping on anybody who contests that, it looks like it's going to stay there...
Terrordave, if your intention was just to rate mega-pinsir, you'll be pleased to know that it's already ranked (in A+). If you're trying to argue that it should be moved down to A, you'll need more evidence than "it requires some support".
vonK, crobat is definitely good right now, I could see it being a solid B. Crobat seems like a good direction to take this discussion if anyone is interested.
Contrast that to Venusaur, who has better resistances, but has many more checks, a serious case of 4MSS, isn't immune to any entry hazards, gets screwed by weather conditions, and has to use a mega stone. People seriously underestimate Leftovers all the time. The only bias against defensive pokemon is that Gamefreak is stingy about giving out reliable recovery. I still don't think M-Venusaur is S-rank worthy, but since the same 4 people keep harping on anybody who contests that, it looks like it's going to stay there...
Maybe I'm missing the point of this thread and its supposed to rank pokemon solely on a single one of their traits (eg. ability to tank hits), but if this is not the case then Venusaur definitely stands out as one of the most worthy pokemon for the S tier. To be a defensive pokemon you dont have to be a wall, you just need to tank hits while performing your role, which is something that Venusaur does very very reliably.
Also, the amount of versatility that Venusaur has is maybe unparalleled, being able to run both physical and special offensive and defensive sets, access to instant recovery and sleep powder on such a difficult pokemon to ohko is a big deal. Not to mention that psychic types recieved even more nerfs this gen, and not a single relevant psychic pokemon scores a reliable ohko on the dinosaur (excluding mega medicham if he chooses to use zen headbutt over psycho cut- the latter fails to ohko most of the time), giving it a chance to sleep them and heal back up. I haven't read through the thread so I'm sure everyone's already said all of these things. Perhaps the best thing about the dino is that the physical and special attacking sets have completely different counters. Rotom-W can switch into earthquake and burn you, but gets easily dealt with by the special set. Steel types like heatran might want to switch into sludge bomb, but they definitely don't want to switch into an earthquake.
As for 4mss, I must be missing something. Sleep Powder and Synthesis with two attacks makes it a great, unpredictable tank, and 80 speed is actually pretty damn good for a defensive pokemon. I think M-Venusaur deserves its spot in S rank for now, especially considering how flexible it is to team-building and the level of versatility it has over its fellow defensive mons (while also having enough speed to deal with opposing defensive mons, as well as immunity to toxic and not caring about paralysis or being crippled by knock-offs)
I don't agree with this either. A good example of an S-rank defensive pokemon was RU Cresselia, who walled all but ~4 Pokemon, none of which could switch in, all while boasting an immunity to Spikes, and having its own Leftovers.
Contrast that to Venusaur, who has better resistances, but has many more checks, a serious case of 4MSS, isn't immune to any entry hazards, gets screwed by weather conditions, and has to use a mega stone. People seriously underestimate Leftovers all the time. The only bias against defensive pokemon is that Gamefreak is stingy about giving out reliable recovery. I still don't think M-Venusaur is S-rank worthy, but since the same 4 people keep harping on anybody who contests that, it looks like it's going to stay there...
RU Cresselia is pretty damn centralizing, but at least it had solid counters / checks in Escavalier, Durant, Spiritomb, and anything with Toxic for non-RestTalk sets.
Regarding Venusaur's checks, I can't imagine how many would enjoy a Sleep Powder or Sludge Bomb + poison, which actually helps to keep a lot of stuff from switching into Venusaur willy-nilly. I don't see the 4MSS to be honest: a surprisingly hard-to-stop Sleep Powder and recovery in Synthesis are pretty much Venusaur's main go-to moves, can't really go wrong with them. It may be susceptible to entry hazards, but it is immune to Leech Seed and Toxic as well as being unaffected by Knock Off, which is considered a win in my book since this allows Venusaur to go toe to toe with a good majority of defensive Pokemon, which it can overwhelm due to its relative power. I do agree that weather and lack of Leftovers can interfere with its tanking role, but weather no longer being permanent can easily affect a Pokemon's ranking (Excadrill & Manaphy anyone?) so Venusaur shouldn't be too affected by the weather especially given its advantage over the weather starters and having semi-alternatives in Giga Drain and Leech Seed. As for the Leftovers issue, I see it more as a 'glorified Eviolite' as far as I'm concerned: the defense boosts may not be worth the loss of passive recovery, but the loss of Fire and Ice weakness can definitely make up for that.
Venusaur doesn't need either of those. it is (generally) immune to the two statuses that would hurt it (sleep and toxic), and if it has Giga Drain and Synthesis or Giga, Synthesis, and leech seed on almost every set, and it has 80/123/120 bulk to back it up, it does NOT need a cleric/wish passer
Really, that's cute that you think Genesect (S rank offensive threat, 120 SpA, Att) and Talonflame (previous S rank, 81 Att) have massive attacks. But then you just go on spewing garbage about venusaur. Resist so little? Oh, really.
Bold are the ones that Venu can wall/make them fear or beat. Italics are the ones that cannot damage venu, but possibly can do other support roles. Strikethrough are the ones that could go either way depending on variants, but venu has a strong chance of winning. Togekiss, starmie, galvantula all struggle to switch into Venu. That, boys and girls, is what he solidly walls out in the OU metagame. Ferro/Forrey/mandi can't hurt venu either. Most of the remaining can't OHKO him, and may also fear sleep powder hitting. Alakazam, Lati@s and Espeon are the only real threats and you better bring Esp/Zam in safely to be sure. Genesect can't really hurt mega venu and I really think Venu could win, due to recovery/eq combo. Sableye can burn, maybe foulplay and is annoying but takes chunks from Giga drain. Scizor falls the same way genesect does, but can boost up and become dangerous if it is SD. That's really limited counter group for "Resisting so little".
To being inferior on one side or another, you understand that there are very few pokemon that have good mixed bulk? Skarmory has almost identical physical bulk to mega venusaur. Remember that HP is weighted a bit more than defense. Having good hp is incredibly important.
Obviously, blissey is the queen sponge but cannot take a physical shot. Mega venusuar is the best mixed wall in the game, outbulking some devoted physical walls by stats and resistances.
I wasn't aware 100/122 was laughable attacks. Nor was I aware that you needed intelligent play to beat Aegislash, since it only runs two sets. I also fail to see how you are so smart, that you know WHICH of the sleep powder, sludge bomb, earthquake, giga drain, roar moves mega venusaur is running before it starts attacking. But hey, let's compare lucario to mega venusaur on the defensive side if you're going to compare them on the attacking side... Oh, I'm sorry, Lucario isn't SUPPOSE to take hits. As Venusaur isn't SUPPOSED to have massive attacks. But, the difference there is while Lucario DOESN'T take hits, Venusaur DOES have great attack.
Cleric/Status absorber needed? Hell no. Venu doesn't mind Twave, doesn't get toxic'd and most sleep inducers can't touch him. BURN IS IT. Really. The only burner running willowisp in consistency is Rotom-w (As sableye isn't even USED anymore). Is Rotom coming in to burn? Probably not. More importantly, a fully special set doesn't care.
Oh wait, the beloved Mega Lucario can get burned, too. He needs a cleric and status absorber, obviously.
You have nothing in this post worthy of noticing. Doesn't outclass other walls? What about slowbro? 95/110/80. Zapdos? 90/85/90. Gliscor? 75/125/75. So that argument again? No weight. He outbulks them, has resistances and less weaknesses than all of them.
Seriously. I'm waiting for you to realize that S rank for a defensive mon is much different than an offensive one. Name a pokemon making a whole archtype viable this generation besides Venusaur. This in itself should be enough to make him S rank. I've now developed two full stall teams (high quality, I'm not just throwing garbage together) and there is a monumental difference between the team WITH mega venusaur and the team without.
If you are lowering the standard of S-rank than I would have nth to say, however if you hold the things strict(like me) than there are a lot of things you are missing.
First of all, I have NEVER deny that Megasaur checks a whole bunch of things(which is why I place it A+), the issue is it does not check them once and for all, but heavily reliant on what sets it is currently running, which is not exactly difficult to test out given its nature. Assuming you always checks everything you possibly check is simply unfair.
Secondly, 100/122 is not underwhelming, but this is only when it is backed up with a nice offensive movepool, which is unfortunately not the case.
Thirdly, you said that offensive pokemon do not need to be defensive, which is true. But this does not translate to defensive pokemon do not need to provide offensive pressure. A glass cannon is always going to be to some extend useful, but an immovable object that cannot touch your opponent is not. Unless you can actually PP stall you opponent and cause them to struggle, which is not the case either. Plus, let's face it. Unlike many other defensive pokemon, Venusaur does not provide nearly as much support to the team. All these spells the word "set-up-folder", which is, well, not entirely true to honest, but does apply partially.
Fourthly, while I never consider 80/123/120 is by any mean bad, we must not discount the effect of the lack of leftover, giga drain works but is not always reliable, synthesis is predicatable and gives away free turns. Being a mixed wall is really cool, but mixed attacker are still minorities. You may say this is fundamentally unfair to defensive pokemon ever since the physical special split, but GF have never been very friendly to defensive-oriented pokemon either.
Fifthly, many argument given have been focusing on how Venusaur 1v1 the entire meta, which is again a fake argument. Unlike something like Mega Kang and Mega Luke. You don't actually need a mono-to-mono solution to this guy, which means you can easily toy around it with several members in the team like how you deal with other Megas, and it is far easier to be dealt with compare to things like Mega Pinsir or Mega Charizard X/Y.
On the other side, if we look at how Venusaur function as a switch-in check, it does possess major flaws, vulnerable to EH, no leftover recovery but relies on spending the turns on recovery a lot more frequently instead. You may skip the resistance issue if you do not agree with me, but most threats it "checks" is checked by something else more effectively. With 1 team slot it does not sound significant, but with 6 team slot the function of "checking everything" is not as impressive.
Sixthly, concerning status inducers, while burn is the only thing you may fear of, it does not change the fact that you are a lot more vulnerable than you should be. Unlike things like Mega Luke and Mega Pinsir who screams "support me", Megasaur is taking a more support-inclined role inherently, so we are generally expecting less support for it. Certainly, fearing only burn is not a big deal. But consider how much you hate it(again due to the lack of leftover), it is already enough to create negative impact to the ranking.
Lastly, concerning how important Megasaur is for stall teams. I am sorry to tell you that Talonflame have dominated the meta, Rotom-W is almost a "must have" for any team, Bisharp is the face of any HO team, but all of them have sit quitely at A+ or below. The only reason Megasaur is getting these hype is because all other Megas (bar Scizor to some extend) are simply too terrible to be used in a stalling and defensive way.
Venusaur can double as a fast Chlorophyll abusing without giving up entirely its ability to become an uber powerful tank. Might not be the most effective strategy but it can be added to the lethany of versatility that the guy packs.
If you are lowering the standard of S-rank than I would have nth to say, however if you hold the things strict(like me) than there are a lot of things you are missing.
First of all, I have NEVER deny that Megasaur checks a whole bunch of things(which is why I place it A+), the issue is it does not check them once and for all, but heavily reliant on what sets it is currently running, which is not exactly difficult to test out given its nature. Assuming you always checks everything you possibly check is simply unfair.
You can't actually check anything once and for all- Mega Gengar was banned for that. Unless your check is Gothielle or Dugtrio or something.
Secondly, 100/122 is not underwhelming, but this is only when it is backed up with a nice offensive movepool, which is unfortunately not the case.
Grass is still grass, but other than that you're somewhat wrong.
Poison hits Fairy now, and sludge bomb is a great move for the 30% poison.
Other offensive measures include EQ and HP fire, which hurt the steel types that come in on the predicted Poison attacks.
It's not a GREAT offensive set of moves, but not a lot resists poison, which will dent most things, even more so with the poisoning chance. The attacks WILL kill offensive pokemon.
Thirdly, you said that offensive pokemon do not need to be defensive, which is true. But this does not translate to defensive pokemon do not need to provide offensive pressure. A glass cannon is always going to be to some extend useful, but an immovable object that cannot touch your opponent is not. Unless you can actually PP stall you opponent and cause them to struggle, which is not the case either. Plus, let's face it. Unlike many other defensive pokemon, Venusaur does not provide nearly as much support to the team. All these spells the word "set-up-folder", which is, well, not entirely true to honest, but does apply partially.
Well, this part is irrelevant because you aren't right about Venusaur's offenses, but really if you run into the wrong set and try to set up you'll just get a sleeping pokemon for your efforts. Sleep is team support, right?
But if you're trying to say something here, at least give an example of something that's going to set up on Venusaur. I suppose the common move would be switching in scizor to SD, but if Venusaur carried the right coverage move then you'd just lose a pokemon.
Fourthly, while I never consider 80/123/120 is by any mean bad, we must not discount the effect of the lack of leftover, giga drain works but is not always reliable, synthesis is predicatable and gives away free turns. Being a mixed wall is really cool, but mixed attacker are still minorities. You may say this is fundamentally unfair to defensive pokemon ever since the physical special split, but GF have never been very friendly to defensive-oriented pokemon either.
The reason being a mixed wall is cool is because you (thoretically) double the number of pokemon you can win against. Synthesis might give a free switch, but never a free turn against anything that can actually threaten it, because that's just a bad idea and no one does that. Also, leech seed is there too.
Fifthly, many argument given have been focusing on how Venusaur 1v1 the entire meta, which is again a fake argument. Unlike something like Mega Kang and Mega Luke. You don't actually need a mono-to-mono solution to this guy, which means you can easily toy around it with several members in the team like how you deal with other Megas, and it is far easier to be dealt with compare to things like Mega Pinsir or Mega Charizard X/Y.
...toy around it? What? Either way, assuming you mean switching for checks/counters, forcing pokemon out is a good thing. And don't forget both players can switch.
On the other side, if we look at how Venusaur function as a switch-in check, it does possess major flaws, vulnerable to EH, no leftover recovery but relies on spending the turns on recovery a lot more frequently instead. You may skip the resistance issue if you do not agree with me, but most threats it "checks" is checked by something else more effectively. With 1 team slot it does not sound significant, but with 6 team slot the function of "checking everything" is not as impressive.
...yes it is. By checking more things with one pokemon, you... have more things that can check threats. I fail to see how more is not better. Even if it's redundant coverage, it becomes useful mid/lategame when things are too weak to do their jobs.
Sixthly, concerning status inducers, while burn is the only thing you may fear of, it does not change the fact that you are a lot more vulnerable than you should be. Unlike things like Mega Luke and Mega Pinsir who screams "support me", Megasaur is taking a more support-inclined role inherently, so we are generally expecting less support for it. Certainly, fearing only burn is not a big deal. But consider how much you hate it(again due to the lack of leftover), it is already enough to create negative impact to the ranking.
This part was hard to understand, but the point I actually do see, I gotta say- Saur doesn't actually care about burn. I mean it does, but it's less a big deal since almost everything it handles can 3hko at best, still plenty of time to recover.
Lastly, concerning how important Megasaur is for stall teams. I am sorry to tell you that Talonflame have dominated the meta, Rotom-W is almost a "must have" for any team, Bisharp is the face of any HO team, but all of them have sit quitely at A+ or below. The only reason Megasaur is getting these hype is because all other Megas (bar Scizor to some extend) are simply too terrible to be used in a stalling and defensive way.
Talonflame has S-rank attributes, but fails the definition in that its sets are not that diverse, and that it ACTUALLY requires support getting rocks off the field. Same with Pinsir. Bisharp requires the support of a hazard layer to bait defogs, and even then cannot consistently sweep. Finally, Rotom-w was argued down from S because it did not have consistent recovery.
Of course you are going to disagree very much, as all the argument you presented is about how "it is not bad", but largely irrelevant to how "it is not good enough". Most your arguement applies for A+ rank as well, which I agree. And now we are talking about S.
I am not denying I am being really picky about S ranks, which I do not expect to be this spotty.
Also, I am a bit tired how the affirmative side rarely(if ever) count their move slots when they present their argument.
We do...we really do. We also do what's called "listing the possibilities", where we like to list any and all usable moves and even discuss some of the best combinations of them. For example, I use a Leech Seed/Sleep Powder/Giga Drain/Block set. Because many people continue to underestimate GengarMega Venusaur(how did I blunder THAT bad?), this gives me plenty of an opportunity to set up on them and guarantee passive damage. This set has slight Toxic Support from Rotom-W and Heatran and Burn Support from Rotom-W, but not all sets need THAT much support. One could opt Block out for Synthesis and Giga Drain can be replaced with Sludge Bomb. One could also use their teammates to cover what Mega Venusaur doesn't. Remember Gen V Lucario? Swords Dance/Close Combat/Extreme Speed/Coverage? That coverage move was what the team needed most (still kind of is to this day, isn't it?) and it was to take out what was more threatening to the team. It still did well, though, and now that it has a Mega Evolution, not much has changed except for the increased damage output. Mega Venusaur has so many viable options that you usually won't know until it's too late. That Sludge Bomb could mean anything about its set, but Sleep Powder and Leech Seed together will reveal its likely intent. Earthquake and Giga Drain together suggest a more offensive role, as does Hidden Power Fire. It makes Mega Venusaur difficult to pin down--basically means that it has the potential to be unpredictible. If memory serves, isn't that the reason why Deoxys-S, Aegislash, and Genesect are up there? You'll never truly know their intended set and moves until it's too late. I run a Deoxys-S with Spikes/Taunt/Magic Coat/Ice Beam, but let me tell you something: That Ice Beam makes a huge difference with confusing the opponent. They immediately assume that I'm running an Offensive Role, then they try to burn me or set up on me. That's when I decide on Taunt or Magic Coat, then lay the Spikes. Genesect's movepool is immensely difficult to pin down because it has so many options. U-Turn, Bug Buzz, Thunderbolt, Blaze Kick, Extreme Speed...the list goes on. Aegislash...it's Aegislash. The Pokemon speaks for itself.
When a Pokemon is S-Rank, it's typically for a reason. Unpredictibility is usually one of those reasons, which is what Mega Venusaur can use to its advantage.
