Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

[Sergeant Spooky]

You can, and it still removes screens on both sides :S The only difference is that the Evasion drop is bounced back to you, but because Defog removes hazards and screens on both sides regardless, it doesn't matter if it's bounced back. I hope that clarifies it!

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Defog_(move)

"It will still only clear away Light Screen and Reflect from the target's side of the field, however."

 

[Srn]

Lando-T and Gliscor are hit neutrally by Rock Blast and Bullet Seed. Also don't both moves have the same Base Power?

O it does sound a bit misleading there, sry. But bullet seed does hits grounds harder, I just should've mentioned examples like hippo and quag instead haha. Sure they're both already 2hko'd, more or less, but its nice sometimes to just OHKO and not have to suffer a toxic.

also,

I'd say there's definitely a place for 4 attacks Heracross. Rock blast has saved me many times by predicting a switch into Talonflame or Charizard, and utterly wrecks a Gyarados that doesn't go mega, while Bullet Seed covers the usual suspects. Pin Missile is pretty much a given, and I like to use Earthquake over Close Combat for coverage (the ability to 2HKO Aegislash is huge, IMO, since a lot of players will almost automatically throw him in). SD Heracross is definitely threatening, but 4 attacks makes it more dangerous for your opponent to switch into.

Nigga are you seriously trying to justify the use of earthquake over close combat on mega heracross

 

[Karxrida]

O it does sound a bit misleading there, sry. But bullet seed does hits grounds harder, I just should've mentioned examples like hippo and quag instead haha. Sure they're both already 2hko'd, more or less, but its nice sometimes to just OHKO and not have to suffer a toxic.

also,


Nigga are you seriously trying to justify the use of earthquake over close combat on mega heracross

Earthquake is slashed with Swords Dance on the analysis so you can hit Aegislash.

 

[Srn]

Earthquake is slashed with Swords Dance on the analysis so you can hit Aegislash.

BUT OVER CLOSE COMBAT? HELLOOOOOOO?????

 

[Karxrida]

BUT OVER CLOSE COMBAT? HELLOOOOOOO?????

Whoops didn't see that, I read too fast sometimes. Yeah that's stupid as fuck.

 

[Fafnir]

BUT OVER CLOSE COMBAT? HELLOOOOOOO?????

Between Pin Missile, Rock Blast, Bullet Seed, and Earthquake, there's not a lot that you desperately need close combat for as far as coverage is concerned. Not to mention that you can preserve Heracross' bulk, and that Pin Missile beats CC out for raw power anyway.

You lose the ability to deal with Ferrothorn and Scizor, but it's not a huge loss if you've got something else to cover that for you. Especially since Aegislash loves to switch in on Heracross anyway.

 

[Srn]

Between Pin Missile, Rock Blast, Bullet Seed, and Earthquake, there's not a lot that you desperately need close combat for as far as coverage is concerned. Not to mention that you can preserve Heracross' bulk, and that Pin Missile beats CC out for raw power anyway.

You lose the ability to deal with Ferrothorn and Scizor, but it's not a huge loss if you've got something else to cover that for you. Especially since Aegislash loves to switch in on Heracross anyway.

Uh you miss 2hko'ing skarm, that's pretty fucking huge. The raw power of CC is also simply reduces the need for prediction, and fighting has better type coverage than pin missle. It's nice not to rely on a non-STAB move which has an immunity too.
You are also left with a tougher match-up against fighting types like conk, where CC helps out a bit, although conk isn't too prevalent nowadays.
Air Balloon mons like Heatran and Excadrill can suddenly spin rather safely, and one of Mega Heracross's most important jobs is checking Excadrill in the first place.

But yeah losing out on the Skarm Kill is a big one, one of the main reasons to even use mega hera is to break that common Skarm/Quag defensive core in the first place, once you can't do that I think it becomes way too easy for stall to handle.

 

[Flamer]

Mega Heracross is certainly a big threat in the current meta. On top of the fact that it has few safe switch ins and that you have to sack a mon to take care of it, it has amazing bulk to live many SE hits. A prime example of this is Extrasensory Greninja and LO Latias, who both narrowly miss the OHKO, despite carrying LO boosted SE STAB moves. The only thing that manages to hold it back is its speed, which doesn't matter too much considering the fact that no faster mons can switch in to take a hit, even resisted hits 2HKO most switch ins. The fact it dismantles Stall is another plus, nothing can beat it (Skarm can I guess, but it gets fucked by CC on the switch). Move this terror to B+ or possibly further, it does so much work against all playstyles.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

Remove the Deoxys forms, both where just banned from OU

 

[Jayd]

I want to mention Mega Heracross in Trick Room. I love playing Trick Room and Megacross absolutely dismantles teams in it.

 

[Klobb]

Could Froslass potentially move up now that both Deoxys are banned?

 

[Zibbity]

IMO Azelf and Mew and Forretress could move up.

 

[Lucario1313]

Klefki to B for spike stacking and screen setting now that Deo S is gone? It can also sponge hits, giving it ample opportunity to set up screens more than once. Priority T wave is a great utility for it to have. Still, it has flaws holding it back.

 

[Rechi]

Can we wait a fucking second before nominating every pokemon that's ever stacked a Spike before to go up a rank?

 

[QuickBH]

It hasn't even been 3 hours since the Deoxys forms just got banned, and suggestions to change the rankings of Pokemon because of it has already been suggested. You should wait at least a week and see how the meta goes without them before making any posts saying a Pokemon should be moved up/down.

 

[Lucario1313]

Disagree. The banning of the aliens immediately makes certain pokemon more viable than they were before.

 

[Valmanway]

Disagree. The banning of the aliens immediately makes certain pokemon more viable than they were before.

This is very true, but we really should let the meta adapt to the changes first before changing rankings.

 

[the-bumper-car]

Okay, Scolipede should at least secure his current ranking, if not improve - he's a spike setter, on top of all the ridiculous sets he can run.

 

[vyomov]

Honestly, could a moderator please lock this thread for a week so that we can let the meta actually settle, see how things play out and then resume nominations? This is because most current nominations are being made on the basis of speculation(such as - Frosslass should go to C- because it can set spikes well....), when we don't actually know whether the speculation is correct and if so to what extent it is correct.

 

[trc]

Just continue to discuss things largely unaffected by the Deoxys bans, as alexwolf is away for another half a week.

 

[procrastinat]

What were we discussing again? Last page I think Megacross to B+ and Lando-T to A- were being debated.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

I would nominate Accelgor for C rank but oh well

Anyway, Chandelure should go up a rank, to C+. This guy is an excellent revenge killer, a wallbreaker and a spinblocker all in one, thanks to its massive special attack stat, its ghost typing and its Flash Fire ability. It can kill any Landorus, Thundurus and Aegislash with just a bit of prior damage, while also threatening Rotom-W, Quagsire and Azumarill with Energy Ball. Heatran is not safe either, as it risks eating a Hidden Power Ground to the face or being tricked a Choice item. Another great set is the SubSplit one, which takes a massive shit on stall and can kill at least two Pokemon if it sets up a sub safely. Mega Charizard Y may have Drought and even higher special attack, but it can't hold any item bar the mega stone and is quad-weak to Stealth Rock. Volcarona is also quad-weak to SR and weak to Brave Bird (HI TALONFLAME), meaning it can't use Choice items effectively. That's why I think Chandelure deserves C+.

 

[procrastinat]

I would nominate Accelgor for C rank but oh well

Anyway, Chandelure should go up a rank, to C+. This guy is an excellent revenge killer, a wallbreaker and a spinblocker all in one, thanks to its massive special attack stat, its ghost typing and its Flash Fire ability. It can kill any Landorus, Thundurus and Aegislash with just a bit of prior damage, while also threatening Rotom-W, Quagsire and Azumarill with Energy Ball. Heatran is not safe either, as it risks eating a Hidden Power Ground to the face or being tricked a Choice item. Another great set is the SubSplit one, which takes a massive shit on stall and can kill at least two Pokemon if it sets up a sub safely. Mega Charizard Y may have Drought and even higher special attack, but it can't hold any item bar the mega stone and is quad-weak to Stealth Rock. Volcarona is also quad-weak to SR and weak to Brave Bird (HI TALONFLAME), meaning it can't use Choice items effectively. That's why I think Chandelure deserves C+.

How is it's choice scarf set a wallbreaker other than potentially tricking one a choice item? Also, the most common spinner these days is excadrill, which you do not want to be switching chandy directly into, and revenge killing thundurus is iffy at best because if you're opponent decides thundurus has done it's job, they will paralyze you with T-Wave. Azumarill is also not something you should be trying to revenge kill, as you have to make sure it's banded so it doesn't just Aqua jet you, not to mention the fact that Assault vest is a possibility. As for the SubSplit set, How is it getting past Zard-X, and what does it have over Gengar? Finally why are you comparing chandelure to Zard-Y? It may be 4X weak to stealth rock but that hasn't held it back from being one of the most powerful special nukes to ever grace OU, it also has a higher speed tier and reliable recovery. Finally, Volcarona doesn't want to use choice items because it gets a nice little move called quiver dance, making it a sweeper, and incomparable to chandelure. Chandelure should stay in C.

 

[alexwolf]

In case you guys are wondering why there hasn't been any update, i am on holidays, and i will be back at Sunday, so expect a major update then. Until then, see ya!

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

How is it's choice scarf set a wallbreaker other than potentially tricking one a choice item?

Its Scarf set is a wallbreaker because no wall bar Chansey/Blissey that doesn't resist Fire-type attacks really wants to take a Overheat to the face. And the pink blobs can get shut down by Trick. Some of those who resist Overheat have to fear its other STAB. For example, Slowbro and Tangrowth are sometimes seen in stall teams as they form a nice Regenerator core.

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252+ SpA Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 374-444 (94.9 - 112.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Chandelure Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 584-690 (144.5 - 170.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Chandelure Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tangrowth: 876-1032 (216.8 - 255.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 494-584 (122.2 - 144.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tangrowth: 744-876 (184.1 - 216.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Oh, you think Quagsire can wall it? Let's see:

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252+ SpA Chandelure Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Quagsire: 664-784 (168.5 - 198.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Quagsire: 220-261 (55.8 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Even Shadow Ball kills it in 2 hits, meaning Quagsire can't really switch into Chandelure at all.

Now what about Gliscor?

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252+ SpA Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 271-321 (76.5 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
252+ SpA Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 200+ SpD Gliscor: 195-231 (55 - 65.2%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal
252+ SpA Chandelure Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 200+ SpD Gliscor: 288-340 (81.3 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal <=== Chandelure can run HP Ice to threaten Dragonite, Salamence, Landorus and Gliscor)

Heatran:

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252+ SpA Chandelure Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 296-352 (76.6 - 91.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Chandelure Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 216-256 (55.9 - 66.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Chandelure Hidden Power Ground vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 296-352 (91.3 - 108.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Hippowdon:

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252+ SpA Chandelure Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 331-391 (78.8 - 93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Not even going to talk about Ferrothorn and Forretress.

I never said the SubSplit set gets past Mega Zard X - just that it has the potential to kill two Pokemon on a team with that set. It can catch Talonflame using Flare Blitz and set up a sub as the bird is forced to switch out. The reason it isn't outclassed by Gengar in my opinion is its access to Fire-type moves, which allow it to get past Ferrothorn, Mega Scizor, Mega Mawile and Skarmory with ease, its higher Special Attack and its ability.

I'm comparing Chandy to Zard Y and Volcarona for a simple reason - they are all Fire-type special nukes/sweepers.