Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

[Srn]

Nominating Mega-Heracross for B+ rank

Mega-Heracross has gained a lot of popularity lately, and for good reason. First and foremost, it is able to able to pretty much dismantle Stall without too much difficulty : the only common Pokemon on Stall that can avoid a 2HKO from it after Rocks are Gliscor, who loses to the SD variant since it can't to much more than Toxic stall Heracross, Max Defense Hippowdon who once again, can't do much back besides stall for a Pin Missile miss. This, added to the fact that stall teams don't really prepare for Mega-Heracross as much as they do for the likes of Landorus-I and Kyurem-B. A lot of stall teams have Skarmory as they most solid switch-in to it, even though it goes down from 2 Close Combats after rocks or very little prior damage (even more likely to 2HKO if they run Rocky Helmet over Leftovers).

Now, it may seem like Mega-Heracross is worse vs Offense than B+ rank megas such as Gardevoir and Medicham due to its low speed, but that really isn't true, since Mega-Hera has something few good stallbreakers have : good bulk. Mega-Heracross's solid defenses makes it relatively tough to properly check, and allows it to deal with offensive Pokemon that can cause a lot of trouble for offensive teams such as Bisharp, Excadrill, Weavile, Lucario, and Sash leads such as Breloom (can counter-lead and destroy it, even outspeeds if Adamant before mega), Mamoswine (same here, MHera does have to take a hit if it's Adamant and Mamo is Jolly but takes it decently), and Diggersby. Its bulk enables it to find opportunities to come in against offensive teams and threaten the opposing Pokemon, and nothing on offense really likes switching into Mega-Heracross. Pin Missile is not a hard move to spam, since a lot of things that resist it is either slower and gets picked off by a coverage move (like Azumarill, Aegislash or Mawile) or really doesn't take it that well despite the resistance (like Excadrill and Keldeo-by the way, you can easily give MHera a few HP EVs to live a Choice Specs Hydro Pump from Keldeo and threaten to OHKO back with Close Combat, that's how impressive its bulk is).

All in all, Mega-Heracross's ability to knock around Stall as well as deal with offensive teams decently make it a solid pick for offensive teams, and the fall of Birdspam makes it all the more viable in the current metagame. I therefore feel like it fits alongside Mega-Medicham and Mega-Gardevoir, as opposed to Conkeldurr and Lucario.

To follow up on this, (I whole heartedly agree with this post) I'd like to elaborate on Mega Heracross's ability to counterlead:
Once Deo-d/s is banned, the usual leads will probably simmer down to mamo/breloom/terrak/garchomp, and Mega heracross beats the crap out of all o them 1v1.
Breloom is simply outsped turn 1 and OHKO'd by pin missile, I used this baby on suspect and I cannot tell you how many brelooms just died turn 1 to this bad boy, it made me so happy ;_;

I generally like to run bullet seed>rock blast b/c my team doesn't really need the rock coverage and values hitting grounds harder; lando-t, gliscor, and mamo. Oh speaking of mamo:
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mamoswine: 360-425 (99.4 - 117.4%) -- approx. 93.8% chance to OHKO

So unless mamoswine is jolly max speed, they will more than likely just die turn 1. Even if they are jolly, all they get up are rocks, and boy mamo is such a fuckin threat its really nice to get rid of it turn 1 and only have to pay rocks as a price.

As far as terrakion goes, all it usually does is get rocks up while bullet seed kills it, and garchomp is a bit bulkier so two pin missiles will take him down. Either way, you only die to a +2 outrage so atleast they won't get rocks up. Not to mention if garchomp leads that means its probably not scarfed, and that's great cuz scarf chomp is a bitch.

And if you run a pursuit bisharp to help get rid of aegislash, then that frees up a slot for SD>eq, which in my opinion is well well worth it.
SD heracross is SOOO much more threatening thatn 4 attacks its amazing. Lando-t and gliscor are no longer safe switch-ins, hell nothing is. Lando-t and gliscor don't even do anything back except a weak stone edge or a desperate toxic, as you mercilessly set up on their mega hera check and 2hko it. The best part is that mega hera blows apart usual stall mons that are meant to take on physical attackers, skarm+quag, as it 2hko's them both with CC.
Just watch out if skarm gets a free switch-in on mega hera and you're not boosted/its sturdy is intact, some still carry bb...

All in All this baby is a lovely mon with lovely forearms and deserves B+ for sure.

 

[Karxrida]

To follow up on this, (I whole heartedly agree with this post) I'd like to elaborate on Mega Heracross's ability to counterlead:
Once Deo-d/s is banned, the usual leads will probably simmer down to mamo/breloom/terrak/garchomp, and Mega heracross beats the crap out of all o them 1v1.
Breloom is simply outsped turn 1 and OHKO'd by pin missile, I used this baby on suspect and I cannot tell you how many brelooms just died turn 1 to this bad boy, it made me so happy ;_;

I generally like to run bullet seed>rock blast b/c my team doesn't really need the rock coverage and values hitting grounds harder; lando-t, gliscor, and mamo. Oh speaking of mamo:
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mamoswine: 360-425 (99.4 - 117.4%) -- approx. 93.8% chance to OHKO

So unless mamoswine is jolly max speed, they will more than likely just die turn 1. Even if they are jolly, all they get up are rocks, and boy mamo is such a fuckin threat its really nice to get rid of it turn 1 and only have to pay rocks as a price.

As far as terrakion goes, all it usually does is get rocks up while bullet seed kills it, and garchomp is a bit bulkier so two pin missiles will take him down. Either way, you only die to a +2 outrage so atleast they won't get rocks up. Not to mention if garchomp leads that means its probably not scarfed, and that's great cuz scarf chomp is a bitch.

And if you run a pursuit bisharp to help get rid of aegislash, then that frees up a slot for SD>eq, which in my opinion is well well worth it.
SD heracross is SOOO much more threatening thatn 4 attacks its amazing. Lando-t and gliscor are no longer safe switch-ins, hell nothing is. Lando-t and gliscor don't even do anything back except a weak stone edge or a desperate toxic, as you mercilessly set up on their mega hera check and 2hko it. The best part is that mega hera blows apart usual stall mons that are meant to take on physical attackers, skarm+quag, as it 2hko's them both with CC.
Just watch out if skarm gets a free switch-in on mega hera and you're not boosted/its sturdy is intact, some still carry bb...

All in All this baby is a lovely mon with lovely forearms and deserves B+ for sure.

Lando-T and Gliscor are hit neutrally by Rock Blast and Bullet Seed. Also don't both moves have the same Base Power?

 

[Zebstrika]

Same base power, but Bullet Seed is slightly more accurate. It's not much, bullet seed's real advantage is hitting Azumarill and other water types.

 

[the-bumper-car]

Lando-T (and Mega-Manectric) both suffer in viability due to their "offensive pivot" role, which in my opinion is a big misnomer. Was offensive pivot a thing in previous gens, or is that just something people started to try to hype this gen? I think that "offensive pivoting" wears down your pivot mon too quickly, especially if the mon in question doesn't have reliable recovery. Contrast this with defensive pivots, like Scizor, Rotom-W, and Gliscor, who can come in on their resists, immunities, or just plain old soak up damage, then use their Volt-Turn to get a better match-up.

I'd argue the only offensive pivot in OU right now would be Greninja, who has the speed, power, unpredictability and coverage to force switches. I guess Infernape in Gen IV/V would fill this role as well?

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

Lando-T (and Mega-Manectric) both suffer in viability due to their "offensive pivot" role

They're both less viable because they've been declared as having a role that doesn't actually exist? I thought we learned this with the last time Mega Man was discussed: offensive pivot is a shitty, made up role that's useless but gets applied to anything that's sort of fast, threatening and also has VoltTurn. Lando-T isn't fast but makes up for in bulk, though it doesn't have recovery.

Also what is the difference between Greninja and Mega Man? Neither can switch into anything that's not a resist, and both are stupid fast while threatening KOs on lots of stuff.

 

[Karxrida]

They're both less viable because they've been declared as having a role that doesn't actually exist? I thought we learned this with the last time Mega Man was discussed: offensive pivot is a shitty, made up role that's useless but gets applied to anything that's sort of fast, threatening and also has VoltTurn. Lando-T isn't fast but makes up for in bulk, though it doesn't have recovery.

Also what is the difference between Greninja and Mega Man? Neither can switch into anything that's not a resist, and both are stupid fast while threatening KOs on lots of stuff.

The main difference is power. Greninja hits way harder thanks to Protean and Life Orb and can actually get past Mega Venusaur, Heatran, Quagsire, Zard X, and (most importantly) Aegislash. It also doesn't need a turn to Mega Evolve.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

It still can't switch in to shit. It hits harder and threatens more things but it functions exactly the same.

"Offensive pivot" is just not a thing, U-turn isn't even that good of a move on greninja.

 

[Karxrida]

It still can't switch in to shit. It hits harder and threatens more things but it functions exactly the same.

"Offensive pivot" is just not a thing, U-turn isn't even that good of a move on greninja.

It does have more resists and an immunity and U-turn has small application, but yeah it's almost always better to run 4 special attacks and come in after something dies.

 

[Fafnir]

SD heracross is SOOO much more threatening thatn 4 attacks its amazing. Lando-t and gliscor are no longer safe switch-ins, hell nothing is. Lando-t and gliscor don't even do anything back except a weak stone edge or a desperate toxic, as you mercilessly set up on their mega hera check and 2hko it. The best part is that mega hera blows apart usual stall mons that are meant to take on physical attackers, skarm+quag, as it 2hko's them both with CC.
Just watch out if skarm gets a free switch-in on mega hera and you're not boosted/its sturdy is intact, some still carry bb...

All in All this baby is a lovely mon with lovely forearms and deserves B+ for sure.

I'd say there's definitely a place for 4 attacks Heracross. Rock blast has saved me many times by predicting a switch into Talonflame or Charizard, and utterly wrecks a Gyarados that doesn't go mega, while Bullet Seed covers the usual suspects. Pin Missile is pretty much a given, and I like to use Earthquake over Close Combat for coverage (the ability to 2HKO Aegislash is huge, IMO, since a lot of players will almost automatically throw him in). SD Heracross is definitely threatening, but 4 attacks makes it more dangerous for your opponent to switch into.

 

[Jacks0n]

I've been wanting to do this for a while. Two heavily underrated Pokemon in ou are sableye and alomomola, both of which are easily comparable to the other B- Pokemon.

Alomomola - Alomomola is a great choice for stall, semi stall and even balanced at the moment. With amazing hp and decent defence it is seriously one of if not the most physically bulky Pokemon in the tier. Water is a great physical defencive typing, with so little of the physical Pokemon in the meta having grass or electric coveredge. It has access to regenerator which let's it pass massive wishes with ought having to worry about its own health to much. It can stall soo many physical attacks with the combo of toxic wish and protect or it can cripple them with a scald burn. Alomola is awesome, being able to go head to head with the tiers top physical attackers, it's only downfalls are it's low special bulk and very limited offensive prescence. All in all it's a great Pokemon and definitely deserving of B-, easily comparable to Pokemon like mega ampharos, a great defensive Pokemon that checks/ counters what you need it to, but has its flaws and requires support.

Sableye - Sableye is another heavily under appreciated Pokemon in OU. With an amazing defensive typing, awesome ability and a great move pool to abuse it, it destroys stall by crippling everything with the combo of taunt wisp and knock off plus recover. I have been running It on a semi stall and I haven't been let down. It can also spin block and then cripple excadrill with wisp. It's only Problem is it's slightly underwhelming bulk and that it's set up bait for zard x. It's extremely comparable to Pokemon such as crawdaunt and mega absol, both Pokemon who have a good niche, But require support, B- is the right home for it.

 

[mertyville]

Alomomola is centainly a threat...it does not give a damn if it gets its item knocked off because it keeps regaining health after each switch in. There was an annoying defensive core with Chansey (Cleric) + Alomomola (Wish Passer) and something else which I forgot but that can absorb Electric Type moves...I believe Landorus-T, making it insanely difficult to break.

 

[the-bumper-car]

They're both less viable because they've been declared as having a role that doesn't actually exist? I thought we learned this with the last time Mega Man was discussed: offensive pivot is a shitty, made up role that's useless but gets applied to anything that's sort of fast, threatening and also has VoltTurn. Lando-T isn't fast but makes up for in bulk, though it doesn't have recovery.

Also what is the difference between Greninja and Mega Man? Neither can switch into anything that's not a resist, and both are stupid fast while threatening KOs on lots of stuff.

Oh, I agree with you 100% on offensive pivot being a mostly made-up thing, except Greninja (and Gen IV-V Infernape) exists, and to a lesser degree Staraptor? But what those three have that the Mega Man and Lando-T don't have is speed, power, coverage, and unpredictability in terms of sets - and I think something else that people praising the "offensive pivot" properties of Mega Man and Lando-T don't seem to realize is that what they're really describing is a Revenge Killer + Wallbreaker, who happen to sometimes run U-turn when they can predict a check/counter coming in.

 

[Mood4food77]

if anything is an offensive pivot....it's aegislash

 

[Kel9901]

Oh, I agree with you 100% on offensive pivot being a mostly made-up thing, except Greninja (and Gen IV-V Infernape) exists, and to a lesser degree Staraptor? But what those three have that the Mega Man and Lando-T don't have is speed, power, coverage, and unpredictability in terms of sets - and I think something else that people praising the "offensive pivot" properties of Mega Man and Lando-T don't seem to realize is that what they're really describing is a Revenge Killer + Wallbreaker, who happen to sometimes run U-turn when they can predict a check/counter coming in.

as an analogy to the 'offensive pivot' examples here, think choice scarf flygon in gen 4, which revenge kills almost every set up sweeper, and often uses U-turn to predict switches and to rack up damage

 

[Jaguar360]

I think the term people are trying to think of for Megaman, Lando-T and U-turn Greninja is probably "scout", and they all do pretty good jobs at that. They're not switching in to attacks, but rather providing momentum for the team and gaining the advantage on switches.

Manectric distinguishes itself from Greninja with Intimidate to force switches on physical attackers, its slightly higher speed tier and being slightly stronger (with its Electric moves at least). Greninja on the other hand uses its wide, powerful coverage to force switches and won't always run U-turn (though it's still a good option on most sets).

Anyway, Mega Manectric and Lando-T both seem fine where they are in B and A rank respectively, Manectric still being a great glue and momentum provider with its fast, powerful Volt Switch and Landorus-T being able to fulfill a role as Stealth Rock setter, a lead, or a scout with Choice Scarf.

 

[the-bumper-car]

as an analogy to the 'offensive pivot' examples here, think choice scarf flygon in gen 4, which revenge kills almost every set up sweeper, and often uses U-turn to predict switches and to rack up damage

The important part there is still "revenge killer" IMHO. I think what people are looking for when they say they want an "offensive pivot" is "I want a Genesect knock-off", as Gene was the master of securing ALL the momentum, force mons that couldn't hurt/outspeed him to switch out (which considering Gene's stats and typing, was a lot).

Lando-T, in this comparison, fares poorly. He's just not that bulky, even when factoring in his typing and Intimidate, especially since all offensive teams run at least one Ice Beam user. He's not that great as a primary SR user, either, since he has no way of protecting his hazards (most Defog users are are resistant/immune to Lando's main stab and don't care about his Intimidate) and he really gets screwed over by the very, very common Bisharp switch-in, in addition to the currently trendy Air Baloon Aegislash. There's also the fact that people are prepared to deal with his much more powerful Lando-I counterpart, and a lot of the checks/counters for Lando-I deal with him as well. He's basically got the opposite problem as Char-Y, a mon who managed to stay in S tier mostly because he could surprise teams that were prepared for CharX.

I think the term people are trying to think of for Megaman, Lando-T and U-turn Greninja is probably "scout", and they all do pretty good jobs at that. They're not switching in to attacks, but rather providing momentum for the team and gaining the advantage on switches.

Except Megaman and Lando-T were specifically being hyped for their "ability to switch-in thanks to Intimidate". I can understand them being decent scouts, but there are much, much better scouts in OU right now, including ones who have relevant resists and immunities.

 

[NotSoClutch]

Offensive pivots are a thing. It indicates something that generally has a lot of resists or an immunity that has a way to regain momentum. Pokes like staraptor, manectric (non-mega), thunderous-t, and aegislash fit this category. Greninja can be used in this way, but it is much better as a scout or a revenge killer.

 

[AM]

Offensive pivots are a thing. It indicates something that generally has a lot of resists or an immunity that has a way to regain momentum. Pokes like staraptor, manectric (non-mega), thunderous-t, and aegislash fit this category. Greninja can be used in this way, but it is much better as a scout or a revenge killer.

Yeah idk where the term "offensive pivot" stemmed from, but I don't believe we should classify a pokemon as such simply cause that's not really a thing. It's just this term that people made up to try and mix two roles when in reality it just causes confusion for newcomers and causes confusion in discussions as well. Most if not all of these have a defined role or more depending on the mon and the moveset. As far as M-Manectric and Lando-T go they're fine where they are at this moment. The metagame hasn't really shifted in favor of them neither has it shifted against them.

 

[Subject 18]

I thought we established that this "offensive pivot" role doesn't truly exist when Mega Manectric was brought up for A-(?) rank iirc. Pivots are supposed to be able to take hits, force a switch and VoltTurn out. I'm not sure why people think Greninja fits this role because that thing is incredibly frail and already has issues with being worn down fairly quickly. So why are you guys trying to label it as an "offensive pivot," it can't take many hits as it is, and it has better things to do.

Now as far as for the ranking of the BP Pokemon, Espeon should definitely move down to C-. It doesn't really have much viability now, not that it really ever did. The only thing it does accomplish is the CM set that Halcyon. mentioned which is an issue for a lot of stall teams. But outside of that it does next to nothing of worth. Scolipede should probably stay where it is, though I don't really agree with A-, I personally think its fits better in B+.

I'll post on Alomomomomola and Sableye later.

 

[NotSoClutch]

I thought we established that this "offensive pivot" role doesn't truly exist when Mega Manectric was brought up for A-(?) rank iirc. Pivots are supposed to be able to take hits, force a switch and VoltTurn out. I'm not sure why people think Greninja fits this role because that thing is incredibly frail and already has issues with being worn down fairly quickly. So why are you guys trying to label it as an "offensive pivot," it can't take many hits as it is, and it has better things to do.

Now as far as for the ranking of the BP Pokemon, Espeon should definitely move down to C-. It doesn't really have much viability now, not that it really ever did. The only thing it does accomplish is the CM set that Halcyon. mentioned which is an issue for a lot of stall teams. But outside of that it does next to nothing of worth. Scolipede should probably stay where it is, though I don't really agree with A-, I personally think its fits better in B+.

I'll post on Alomomomomola and Sableye later.

I think espeon should be a little higher than C- honestly. It's only true drawbacks are its typing and its generic psychic movepool. It works as a solid check to things we value so highly like deoxys-d and yet people continuously shit on it. Espeon may not be among the best of the best, but its great speed tier, massive special attack stat, access to magic bounce, and access to dual screens allow for a deadly lead against all playstyles aside from volt-turn. Espeon is actually a fun way to mess with both hyper offense and stall. With an open mind, great teams can be built around espeon.

Oh and one argument I always hear is that espeon is a predictable switch. Prediction goes both ways people.

 

[Ropeburn]

I think espeon should be a little higher than C- honestly. It's only true drawbacks are its typing and its generic psychic movepool. It works as a solid check to things we value so highly like deoxys-d and yet people continuously shit on it. Espeon may not be among the best of the best, but its great speed tier, massive special attack stat, access to magic bounce, and access to dual screens allow for a deadly lead against all playstyles aside from volt-turn. Espeon is actually a fun way to mess with both hyper offense and stall. With an open mind, great teams can be built around espeon.

Oh and one argument I always hear is that espeon is a predictable switch. Prediction goes both ways people.

Its ONLY true drawbacks? Psychic typing is a terrible typing in a metagame where Aegislash exists. Realistically, what does Espeon even do anymore now that BP is dead? The dual screens set is the only thing it can really run, and having screens up isn't as effective when Defog removes them and you have to hard switch out Espeon to start abusing the screens, and that's a wasted turn. Even as a support pokemon,it has difficulty in switching in on anything that isn't a status move. Magic Bounce is a great ability, but honestly what does it do? Spike stack teams aren't as prevelant as they were the past few gens, and Stealth Rock is really easy to set up and get off the field.

Also, for all the people who are talking about Greninja being frail, Espeon has almost the same bulk as that.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

You can't Defog away screens when Espeon is still out, cause Magic bounce. That's its niche.

 

[Ninja Charizard]

Yeah, Espeon will probably replace Deo-S as a dual screener after it gets banned. Even though it's nowhere near as good.

 

[Karxrida]

Yeah, Espeon will probably replace Deo-S as a dual screener after it gets banned. Even though it's nowhere near as good.

Klekfi is more likely to fulfill that role since it has actual resists, bulk, and Prankster T-Wave so it can be used as an emergency sweeper check later in the match.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

You can't Defog away screens when Espeon is still out, cause Magic bounce. That's its niche.

You can, and it still removes screens on both sides :S The only difference is that the Evasion drop is bounced back to you, but because Defog removes hazards and screens on both sides regardless, it doesn't matter if it's bounced back. I hope that clarifies it!