XY UU Beta Discussion (Read post #32)

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Do you guys think shuckle has a chance of shining in the metagame? Smeargle and Galvantula is not present, so it's the best sticky web user now. Now that even Bisharp is gone, Shuckle can reliably set up sticky web / stealth rock and knock off the oponent's item or just toxic them. Binding band+infestation+chesto resto is also viable I guess..

Shuckle @ Sitrus Berry / Mental Herb
Ability : Sturdy Contrary
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Spd / 4 Def
Calm Nature
-Sticky Web
-Stealth Rock
-Toxic Encore
-Knock Off

After you set up your SW you can proceed to sweep teams with offensive sets such as CB diggersby, CB flygon& swampert, choice specs chalendure??
 
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I just can't stand using a Shuckle without Encore. Shuckle is setup bait, and Encore shuts down any attempts at opponents trying to set up DDs in its face. I'd try to see if I can fit SR elsewhere on the team and replace SR with Encore.

Sturdy is a good ability for suicide leads, but I don't think it's very good on shuckle. Contrary is situational, but I think it's slightly better than Sturdy. Switching into a Defog for the evasion boost, or taking a Shadow Ball and gaining SDef is super situational, but is more probable than saving Shuckle from an OHKO (from say a crit Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump).
 
Nothing is really able to OHKO Shuckle. Mega Medicham's HJK only does 69.2 - 81.5% with 0 Def, and Choice Banded Darmanitan Flare Blitz (iirc the strongest physical attack in the game) only does 78.6 - 92.6%. Choice specs fucking Keldo Hydro Pump only does 84.4 - 100.8% with 252+ SpD. So yeah, Shuckle doesn't need sturdy to be sturdy.

Ramparados' Head Smash OHKOs, but sturdy wouldn't save you anyway.
 
Segeant Spooky and noknuckles, thanks for the correction but Besides the mons that I stated before (CB swampert, Diggersby, Flygon or any Choice Banded/ Specs mon I guess...) what mons could abuse sticky web fairly well? (I'm not talking about defiant/ competitive, lol defiant empoleon)
 
all these complaints about knock off, just bring in an itemless crobat and start using acrobatics, or just bring in a mega so knock off is only BP 65, no need to ban an entire move, lol get real people
Knock Off still destroys most megas. Also itemless Crobat. That's funny. Seriously though, "Get Real", Knock Off has all the support viability it's always had, but now it can straight out Kill threats. So essentially you get crippled or you lose a pokemon.
 
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For Sticky Web: Leavanny/Shuckle are viable and they both get the utility move Knock Off. Speaking of which, Running itemless Pokémon = / = viable for one move. Knock Off really needs to be voted on again. If we could hold an actual suspect test, we could easily get a 65%+ vote to ban it. Hawlucha doesn't like taking hits or losing it's item, yet it's still our best counter. The only issue I have with banning it, is it makes AV Escavalier really bad. Even though that is really the most fun thing in UU in my opinion to use, I still would agree it is worth the sacrifice. Because of it, Cofagrigus and Chansey are really unviable. It destroys stall, the numerous amount of Eviolite Pokémon in the tier, and stops you from using Psychics and Ghosts aside from Slowbro and Chandelure almost entirely. Please read through this Knock Off ban discussion, koko/council, and revote based on these arguments.
 
Objection!
For Sticky Web: Leavanny/Shuckle are viable and they both get the utility move Knock Off. Speaking of which, Running itemless Pokémon = / = viable for one move. Knock Off really needs to be voted on again. If we could hold an actual suspect test, we could easily get a 65%+ vote to ban it. Hawlucha doesn't like taking hits or losing it's item, yet it's still our best counter. The only issue I have with banning it, is it makes AV Escavalier really bad. Even though that is really the most fun thing in UU in my opinion to use, I still would agree it is worth the sacrifice. Because of it, Cofagrigus and Chansey are really unviable. It destroys stall, the numerous amount of Eviolite Pokémon in the tier, and stops you from using Psychics and Ghosts aside from Slowbro and Chandelure almost entirely. Please read through this Knock Off ban discussion, koko/council, and revote based on these arguments.
Doesn't Mega Aggron counter/check every knock off user out there? Heavy slam KOs weavile and Earthquake & Toxic wears down Crawduant, While tanking anything escalivar wants to bring on. So i wouldn't say it destroys stall when you can't even beat the stall king Mega Aggron, right?
 
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Aggron: 162-192 (47 - 55.8%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Filter Mega Aggron: 193-228 (56.1 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Filter Mega Aggron: 298-351 (86.6 - 102%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
All of these commonly run Knock Off while 2HKOing Mega-Aggron. All of these are extremely common. Trying to tank Knock Off doesn't really work. So no.
 
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Aggron: 162-192 (47 - 55.8%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Filter Mega Aggron: 193-228 (56.1 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Filter Mega Aggron: 298-351 (86.6 - 102%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
All of these commonly run Knock Off while 2HKOing Mega-Aggron. All of these are extremely common. Trying to tank Knock Off doesn't really work. So no.
Oh, lol
But it's the closest thing as a knock off counter (barring tornados). It just shows how Why Knock Off is so frustrating. It's just like scald last gen, but it's better.. But for me, I find it actually better to deal with than scald, because once a physical sweeper is burned there is nothing left to do, but let it there to be death fodder. But, with knock off unless you are heavily depend your sweeping skills on your item like specs noivern, you can at least sacrafice your item to do something.
Guys, just because you lost your item that dosen't mean you're gonna loose.

P.S. If i'm not mistaken It think the calcs for mega aggron should be 252+ Def?
 
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nv

The Lost Age
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Leavanny doesn't get web + knock off, unfortunately.
Actually she does because Knock Off is a tutor move while Sticky Web is learned via level up. Only reason it wouldn't be able to learn is if a move was gen 5 tutor move and a gen 6 egg move.
 
Actually she does because Knock Off is a tutor move while Sticky Web is learned via level up. Only reason it wouldn't be able to learn is if a move was gen 5 tutor move and a gen 6 egg move.
Sticky Web is a level up move for Sewaddle, who can't get Knock Off.

Likewise, the reverse applies: Leavanny is the one who learns Knock Off, but she doesn't get Sticky Web naturally.
 
Arguments for a ban on Knock Off

1. It's good on everything that gets it. Unlike say, Scald, Knock Off is disruptive and viable on nearly everything that gets it. Even though Bisharp/Landorus recently left, Weavile, Crawdaunt, Mienshao, Machamp, Shuckle, Escavalier, Gligar, Empoleon, etc all run it. An important point of its vast distribution means that it's more sensible to ban the move rather than its many abusers. Even Empoleon, a special attacker, has reason to run Knock Off. Much like Sticky Web or Spore (which are totally different in nature to Knock Off), Knock Off is just so good, but has a great distribution which means that

2. Everything good gets it. An exaggeration sure, but unlike Sticky Web, pokemon aren't used just for Knock Off. Weavile is a great late-game sweeper, Machamp is annoying as fuck, Crawdaunt has Adaptability, Empoleon has Defog/Stealth Rock -- basically, all the Pokemon that can abuse Knock Off are themselves abusable, meaning they aren't dependencies like Shuckle tends to be.

3. It's very difficult to switch into. Somebody earlier made the comparison that Knock Off functions like Earthquake -- this is only true in terms of power, but 11 (around 20%) of UU is immune or resists ground, which is pretty significant and prevents any serious Earthquake spam. About half of that number resist Knock Off, and several, like Hawlucha, take half from it. The fact that steel types no longer resist dark is critical to this -- since would be survivors like Metagross and Jirachi are massacred or nearly OHKOd by the hit. Even Mienshao has a small, but possible, chance to be OHKOd by Crawdaunt's Knock Off -- again, sheer power is not an important part of the argument, but rather, that coupled with its secondary effect, few Pokemon can switch in with impunity and survive. The megas, having items that can't be knocked off, are key candidates, but all with the exception of M-Aggron take serious damage, and as Kingpoleon shows, M-Aggron can't take any possible moves from common Knock Off users.

252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Aggron: 162-192 (47 - 55.8%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Filter Mega Aggron: 193-228 (56.1 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Filter Mega Aggron: 298-351 (86.6 - 102%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
All of these commonly run Knock Off while 2HKOing Mega-Aggron. All of these are extremely common. Trying to tank Knock Off doesn't really work. So no.
The fact that we are discussing Pokémon to take on one move specifically shows how centralizing it truly is.

4. Knock Off severely hampers playstyle diversity. Losing a Life Orb might not matter much for an offensive team in the long run (although losing a Choice Scarf can be critical), but for balanced and defensive teams, there's a greater dependency on items, especially when that item is not leftovers. Porygon2 and Gligar are both good defensive threats that become very difficult to use in an environment where Knock Off is so prevalent. One Knock Off counter I didn't mention is Granbull, who I used on a stall team specifically to take on Knock Offs -- however, this becomes much more difficult on stall teams where there is no Pokemon that can take both a hard special hit and Knock Off. Chansey, which isn't completely worthless after Knock Off, becomes much easier to take care of. Although I ran Granbull + M-Aggron to deal with nearly all Knock Off users, I still believe that Knock Off hampers stall as a whole, and unnecessarily shifts the game towards offense.
 

nv

The Lost Age
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Staff Alumnus
Arguments for a ban on Knock Off

1. It's good on everything that gets it. Unlike say, Scald, Knock Off is disruptive and viable on nearly everything that gets it. Even though Bisharp/Landorus recently left, Weavile, Crawdaunt, Mienshao, Machamp, Shuckle, Escavalier, Gligar, Empoleon, etc all run it. An important point of its vast distribution means that it's more sensible to ban the move rather than its many abusers. Even Empoleon, a special attacker, has reason to run Knock Off. Much like Sticky Web or Spore (which are totally different in nature to Knock Off), Knock Off is just so good, but has a great distribution which means that

2. Everything good gets it. An exaggeration sure, but unlike Sticky Web, pokemon aren't used just for Knock Off. Weavile is a great late-game sweeper, Machamp is annoying as fuck, Crawdaunt has Adaptability, Empoleon has Defog/Stealth Rock -- basically, all the Pokemon that can abuse Knock Off are themselves abusable, meaning they aren't dependencies like Shuckle tends to be.

3. It's very difficult to switch into. Somebody earlier made the comparison that Knock Off functions like Earthquake -- this is only true in terms of power, but 11 (around 20%) of UU is immune or resists ground, which is pretty significant and prevents any serious Earthquake spam. About half of that number resist Knock Off, and several, like Hawlucha, take half from it. The fact that steel types no longer resist dark is critical to this -- since would be survivors like Metagross and Jirachi are massacred or nearly OHKOd by the hit. Even Mienshao has a small, but possible, chance to be OHKOd by Crawdaunt's Knock Off -- again, sheer power is not an important part of the argument, but rather, that coupled with its secondary effect, few Pokemon can switch in with impunity and survive. The megas, having items that can't be knocked off, are key candidates, but all with the exception of M-Aggron take serious damage, and as Kingpoleon shows, M-Aggron can't take any possible moves from common Knock Off users.



The fact that we are discussing Pokémon to take on one move specifically shows how centralizing it truly is.

4. Knock Off severely hampers playstyle diversity. Losing a Life Orb might not matter much for an offensive team in the long run (although losing a Choice Scarf can be critical), but for balanced and defensive teams, there's a greater dependency on items, especially when that item is not leftovers. Porygon2 and Gligar are both good defensive threats that become very difficult to use in an environment where Knock Off is so prevalent. One Knock Off counter I didn't mention is Granbull, who I used on a stall team specifically to take on Knock Offs -- however, this becomes much more difficult on stall teams where there is no Pokemon that can take both a hard special hit and Knock Off. Chansey, which isn't completely worthless after Knock Off, becomes much easier to take care of. Although I ran Granbull + M-Aggron to deal with nearly all Knock Off users, I still believe that Knock Off hampers stall as a whole, and unnecessarily shifts the game towards offense.
Knock Off is horrible but I doubt a move will get banned. It isn't that much of a nuisance. Granted it is a nuisance but I doubt the move will be banned.
 
I think many people are really underestimating the effect of losing items on stall. While it is obvious that eviolite mons are totally unviable when losing their items, people are not aware of how determinal the 1/16 healing of lefties is on stall. Many evs of offensive and defensive pokemon are geared to ensure or avoid 2HKOS. Losing their items mean defensive mons can no longer recover health to survive 2HKOs nor use protect to rack up residual damage on opponent while recovering enough health to survive incoming onslaughts. The extra 6% every turn while not seem to much, will add up and can even change the outcome of a match. This is especially important for stall teams, which matches last for longer (it isn't rare to have matches taking 1XX or even 2XX turns). Stall teams will severely suffer if they need to recover off damage from hazards and attacks much more frequently without the help of lefties. Especially things like Granbull with have zero recovery and can't wall shit without lefties.

Take Chesnaught as an example, it does not actually countet Crawdaunt well if it loses its items. While usually it can switch in and out without taking damage if Crawdaunt double switches, it will take 6% with just SR up if it lacks lefties. The Crawdaunt user can just swich to something that can threaten it directly or have something threaten to set up on it if it uses Synthesis. This makes stall mons much more easier to wear down and hampers stall team a lot.

Using such inferior and unviable shits like itemless Acrobatics Crobat only proves that Knock Off is overcentralizing. In fact, stall is almost forced to run Mega Aggron or physically defensive Mega Blastoise or Ampharos to take Knock Off. While these are all great pokemon, Knock Off single-handedly shapes the metagame and severely limits the teambuilding. Not to mention that Mega Aggron cannot take too many Crabhammers since it needs to be specially defensive in order to not be wrecked by Magnezone as well as checking a magnitude of special threats (gardy w/out fb, latias, cm rachi etc).

The sheer power, good coverage as well as great distribution makes stall extremely hard to adapt to it. Stall already have to deal with broken shita like SD Diggersby and Crawdaunt with niche mons like defensive Rotom-N or Chesnaught. Adding in knock of just makes stall teambuilding more hard and limited. Ghosts are no longer fighting counters when Knock Off is avaliable to pratically every fighting type. In fact, only shits physically defensive Doublade with Rest can deal with fighting knock offers constantly in stall. While banning a move seems ridiculous, I support banning Knock Off for beinf overcentralizing and severely hampering a playstyle.
 
noknuckles said:
I just can't stand using a Shuckle without Encore. Shuckle is setup bait, and Encore shuts down any attempts at opponents trying to set up DDs in its face. I'd try to see if I can fit SR elsewhere on the team and replace SR with Encore.
I've been using Red Card. I can put both Stealth Rock and Sticky Web and maybe even use Knock Off before set upper attacks. Thanks to Sturdy Shuckle survives the hit and then it can use Knock Off against switched pokémon because it's quite often slower than the set upper. The problem is that you have to be sure that hazards stays in because Shuckle could not put them again.
 
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But Knock Off is the only answer to getting past Chansey tbh... :v4:

Anyway, the lack of mentioning Tornadus as a Knock Off abuser depressed me. Knock Off + Acrobatics on an itemless Tornadus is really fun tbh lol. Not to mention Regenerator is very cool on your Knock Off abuser, like Mienshao has. Then you have U-turn and Superpower for coverage or Taunt for that anti-leading and stallbreaking.

Also, I thought most Mega Aggron run 252HP / 252SpD with a +Def nature, I always did, at least...
 
I can't wait to start voting on stuff when the tier becomes official and suspect tests start, this gen UU seems like it might be as good as last gen Ubers.

Also, why has no one mentioned the amazing Mega Aggron / Chansey / Ghost core? With Mega Aggrons huge Defense and ability to set up Stealth Rock, Chanseys ability to pass Wishes and heal status, and any Ghost (I've seen Cofagrigus work pretty well) spinblocking and providing a Fighting resist, which even though Mega Aggron CAN take a Close Combat/Chansey take a Focus Blast, its better they don't. As for Knock Off, it depends what is using it. Usually Mega Aggron can take those and Thunder Wave/Iron Head/EQ them. The only problem off the top of my head is Crawdaunt, who physically defensive MAggron can take 2 hits from, scout if its CB, and paralyze it.

May post calcs/replays later.
 

Rotosect

Banned deucer.
But Knock Off is the only answer to getting past Chansey tbh... :v4:

Anyway, the lack of mentioning Tornadus as a Knock Off abuser depressed me. Knock Off + Acrobatics on an itemless Tornadus is really fun tbh lol. Not to mention Regenerator is very cool on your Knock Off abuser, like Mienshao has. Then you have U-turn and Superpower for coverage or Taunt for that anti-leading and stallbreaking.

Also, I thought most Mega Aggron run 252HP / 252SpD with a +Def nature, I always did, at least...
There is no reason not to run an item just because you want a powered-up Acrobatics.
You're better off running a consumable item such as Sitrus Berry or Focus Sash in pretty much every scenario.
 
Some of you should really listen to yourselves..

"Run Pokemon that are designed to lose their item"
"Play Megas on all your teams"

Correct me if I'm wrong but if you're forced to utilize ludicrous team building techniques such as this, does that not imply that Knock Off is centralizing the uu tier? You purposefully build your teams around effectively countering the move Knock Off and otherwise you just lose 1/3 if not more of your team's items. It's actually astounding that there are people who can SERIOUSLY compare Knock Off to Scald and Stealth Rocks. Scald has a 30% chance to "cripple" a Pokemon and Stealth Rocks is extremely easy to play around. These moves weren't ban worthy because they weren't RELIABLY BROKEN. There was no guarantee you were going to get burned (unless you play on Showdown), there is no guarantee that Stealth Rocks were going to get setup (if you're a decent player) or as a matter of fact, stay up (Rapid Spin etc). So let's recap, how exactly do you prevent your Pokemon from losing their items and essentially half of their worth? Play Pokemon designed to lose their items on every team? Force yourself (not saying this is a bad thing because Megas in uu are actually quite phenomenal) to play a Mega on every team? Knock Off is absolutely ridiculous.
 
I agree. Knock Off NEEDS to be banned, or else UU will become unplayable. We can't ban dozens of Pokemon like Gligar, Shuckle, Machamp, Empoleon, etc. just because of one move.
 
I agree. Knock Off NEEDS to be banned, or else UU will become unplayable. We can't ban dozens of Pokemon like Gligar, Shuckle, Machamp, Empoleon, etc. just because of one move.
Please tell me how the Knock Off buff has helped any of these Pokemon in a significant way. They use Knock Off because of the disruptive quality of getting rid of an item, not because it got an admittadley ridiculous boost in power. Knock Off does not make these Pokemon ridiculous threats that can easily ruin teams, so don't over-hype it on them.

However, I do agree that Knock Off is a piece of shit that should leave UU. My main issues is just the unecessary power boost it gets when removing an item, and just how spammable it is. If Steel-types still resisted Dark, then maybe it would be all right, but with how it is, it is way too powerful.
 
Banning EMPOLEON would be the second ever starter ban. Empoleon and Gligar use Knock Off because it hits strongly, cripples their counters(I. e. Chansey, Suicune, Weavile, and other ice and water types). Shuckle with Knock Off is not any better than last generation. Also, Leavanny with Sticky Web + Knock Off is allowed on PS! but it technically isn't possible/legal. Also, how does Tornadus fare in UU?
 
Being a starter doesn't matter Kingpoleon

Knock Off + Sticky Web is legal. Knock Off is a BW2 Tutor, and Sticky Web is move relearner.

Tornadus isn't as good as last gen.

Edit: making my 500th post a UU RMT.
 
Yes but starter bans tend to make the general public mad. Also, Leavanny can learn Knock Off via BW2 tutor, but it cannot learn Sticky Web by level-up/level 1/move relearner. Of the line, only Sewaddle learns Sticky Web at level 41, and Sewaddle doesn't get Knock Off from the tutor.
Anyway, is Diggersby broken? My teams have trouble countering it, with Cofagrigus being 2HKO'd by LO Jolly 252 Attack Diggersby after SR.
Slowbro is really good, but people are using it wrongly with AV. When a defensive Pokémon gets Slack Off/Softboiled/Recover, and to an extent Wish, they should not be using AV, as that prevents them from healing. People are really overestimating Regenerator+AV to such an extent they say 'AV Mienshao sounds GREAT!'
 
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