Yupp you can use kyu n with hail. Its just kind of meh since weather got nerfed. You could run offensive hail, but with powerful megas especially gardevoir and medicham, it makes hails job really difficult.
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XY UU Beta Discussion (Read post #32)
- Thread starter Ace Emerald
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It's also the ONLY strong dark time move (which is still not as strong as several other STABS), and immediately drops off in power once an item is gone. Most teams won't have more than one pokemon using it, and based on who, it shouldn't be hard to pick a member of your team to that makes a good knock off dummy. You could also plan for this in team building, get a good wall or something not weak to dark, and not reliant on eviolite. There's also other potential, like running trick or something on a pokemon you build to take knock offs, so that if it loses its item, it can just take someone elses. That's probably a bad example, but there's no way a 97.5 (Max) BP move is breaking the tier, people are just annoyed that it is spammable.
I tried to use Mega Obama, I really did, but seven weaknesses without Tyrantiar's insane bulk. And 30 base speed. It's only saving grace is that it's hard to switch in to due to its coverage options, dual offensive stats and powerful 100% accurate Blizzard, but it is so piss-easy to check, even more so than Medicham or Gardevoir who are beat by pretty much any scarfer, and while it hits hard it has nowhere neat the power of High Jump Kick off of ~250 base Att or Pixilate Hyper Voice off of 165 base SpA. Maybe I'm missing something but it was the most ineffectual mega I've used thus far.
Well, Antibiotic, the fact that so many different pokemon which fill very different roles can use Knock Off makes it not really possible to have a "Knock Off dumby," as you might switch something in on a pokemon not realizing it has Knock Off. Like, maybe, Tornadus, Empoleon, Absol, Mienshao. Each of those pokemon fill different roles on a team, and each of those pokemon get the great utility move of Knock Off. Also, there isn't really a single pokemon who can counter all 4 of those pokemon to be a viable "Knock Off dumby." And the fact that you would even consider wasting a team-slot just to take Knock Off only proves its value and centralization, thus making it more op than one would even think, including yourself. I also don't think you realize that 2 Knock Offs is more powerful than 2 of any other Dark-type move, which is sometimes all that is needed to finish something off.
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I highly agree with Adam, back in gen 5 with Steel resisting Dark, Knock Off was annoying but manageable. What I see people complaining about the most is it's boost in base power but I would disagree. Apart from losing an item, which every pokemon takes advantage of, what pushes Knock off over the edge for me is the 1.5 multiplier when the target is holding an item. Correct me if i'm wrong but Absol is the only Mega to resist Knock Off, thus meaning every mega pokemon is alwase taking a Base 95 move with the calculation of an item. This in my opinion automatically limits teams to be forced to waste a teamslot on a "Knock Off Dummy" or chose a pokemon to effectively be hindered for the rest of the match. Not to mention Knock Off users can come in many forms, from brutes such as Crawduant, Weavile, and Absol, or defensive behemoths like Gligar, both Tangla and Tangrowth, and Misdreavus.
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I don't think a lot of people are realizing what makes Knock Off so dangerous is the "turn-1 nuke" it provides. Even WITH a super-effective STAB attack, there are very very few Pokemon that can OHKO Slowbro physically out of the gate. You need a crazy high roll (4 to 5 hits) with Choice Band Breloom's Bullet Seed, to name one. But that's unlikely to happen and even as powerful as Bullet Seed is it's still set-up fodder for something like Scolipede or Genesect or Scizor or Skarmory. Now we've got Adaptability Crawdaunt who has an extremely small chance to NOT OHKO 252/252+ Slowbro with Adamant Life Orb Knock Off. The utility it brought has always been huge, a Pokemon losing its item is terrible, but now you have to contend with losing your item AND taking a massive hit that you might not be able to recover from. And like Adam said, 2 Knock Offs, with the first removing an item and getting the attack boost, is more powerful than any two other Dark attacks in a row (162.5 vs a max of 160). Knock Off from Tornadus-T? Damaging, but not overly scary. Knock Off from Bisharp and Crawdaunt? You can straight-up lose a Pokemon to getting hit by that. When I use Crawdaunt (almost always), Knock Off is usually the move of choice to spam, because while it's always weaker than Crabhammer, it's got significantly better coverage, it usually only takes one Knock Off to do the job, and it cripples teams.
UnicornDemon
Banned deucer.
Kind of sad to see Staraptor go, but I suppose it was necessary.
I feel like Mega-Gardevoir deserves to stay. It's just one of those Pokemon you have to plan for in advance kind of like Darmanitan. Btw, sheer force Flare Blitz hits harder than pixilate Hyper Voice even without life orb. Of course there's recoil to consider, but still, Gardy has good counters like Jirachi, Victini, and Entei.
I don't know how I feel about Mega-Medicham. I always found Diggersby to be more threatening than either of these two megas, but maybe that's just because of my team.
I feel like Mega-Gardevoir deserves to stay. It's just one of those Pokemon you have to plan for in advance kind of like Darmanitan. Btw, sheer force Flare Blitz hits harder than pixilate Hyper Voice even without life orb. Of course there's recoil to consider, but still, Gardy has good counters like Jirachi, Victini, and Entei.
I don't know how I feel about Mega-Medicham. I always found Diggersby to be more threatening than either of these two megas, but maybe that's just because of my team.
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Rotosect
Banned deucer.
I believe you're better off using regular Abomasnow for that.
Mega-Aboma really shines in Trick Room teams though, I was impressed at just how powerful it is in such teams. Both strategies are quite viable in UU.
ok when is weavile getting some love? it is an epic knock off user with great STABS and reliable priority. the only problems are mach/bullet punch weakness (are those even common? ive only seen bullet punch on medicham), a SR weakness (which isnt way to much of a problem as its a cleaner), and a low power STAB in ice punch (seriously, you cant run icicle crash and knock off?). People are seriously condidering empoleon? granted it has nice defenses and defiant but it has a low attack and it is slow as crap AND does not have STAB knock off. ntm weavile has even better special bulk than bisharp (lol weavile having more bulk than something)
Well and the 2 knock offs do even more than that to defensive mons who can get leftovers recovery against the other dark moves combo.
:( staraptor. Mega Gardevoir can 2HKO Jirachi and Victini with shadow ball unless Jirachi is max spD max hp which does happen I guess. Victini never runs defensive sets so he can't switch in unless it's scarf to revenge kill. Without scarf it becomes a speed tie. Also with diggersby, it would have to be choice band to be near as strong as megacham. 100 at with pure power vs 56. Scarf diggersby pales in comparison and sd has a very difficult time setting one up. Even megacham can run drain punch and sub for a bulk up set.
I agree that knock off can be unpredictable, outside of dark types anyway. I think the part we are disagreeing on here is how crippling it is for a pokemon to lose its item. It obviously depends on the pokemon and what you want to do with it, but there are several ways pokemon can be crippled, and I disagree that what is normally a one time, non stab coverage move with only 97.5 power is just too overpowered because my pokemon lost its leftovers! I like how you said a pokemon using trick is wasting a team slot, since we all know trick is very non viable. You said I dont understand how powerful 2 knock offs are? Seriously? I'm pretty sure a 97.5 knocking off leftovers followed by a 65 isn't outdamaging 2 close combats with a leftovers recovery, for instance. Knock off is good and is literally the only strong dark type move, but don't act like it's some specs draco nuke.
I am saddened that you forgot Empoleon as a Gardy counter. It couldn't care less about Pixilate Hyper Voice, resists Psyshock, and AV Empoleon can only be 2HKOed by Focus Blast. Here's some calcs to show just how well Empoleon does against Mega Gardevoir:
252 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 72 HP / 188 SpD Assault Vest Empoleon: 63-75 (19.2 - 22.9%) -- guaranteed 5HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mega Gardevoir Psyshock vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 87-102 (26.6 - 31.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mega Gardevoir Thunderbolt vs. 72 HP / 188 SpD Assault Vest Empoleon: 130-154 (39.7 - 47%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (needs 2 max rolls)
252 SpA Mega Gardevoir Focus Blast vs. 72 HP / 188 SpD Assault Vest Empoleon: 174-206 (53.2 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (2 in a row with Focus Blast...)
248+ SpA Empoleon Flash Cannon vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 200-236 (71.9 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Keep in mind this is Assault Vest Empoleon (which isn't as crazy as it sounds despite all the support options the penguin has)
252 SpA Mega Gardevoir Psyshock vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 87-102 (26.6 - 31.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mega Gardevoir Thunderbolt vs. 72 HP / 188 SpD Assault Vest Empoleon: 130-154 (39.7 - 47%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (needs 2 max rolls)
252 SpA Mega Gardevoir Focus Blast vs. 72 HP / 188 SpD Assault Vest Empoleon: 174-206 (53.2 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (2 in a row with Focus Blast...)
248+ SpA Empoleon Flash Cannon vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 200-236 (71.9 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Keep in mind this is Assault Vest Empoleon (which isn't as crazy as it sounds despite all the support options the penguin has)
One word: Metagross
Losing your item is the worst thing you can have for you pokemon outside of fainting. I would say in some cases its worse to lose an item than to take a Specs Draco like you said Antibiotic. Also, it's not about the damage necessary since dark has beter coverage than fighting.
I stongly disagree with the idea of Banning an entire Move, as...
- All it is is basically a Dark Type Earthquake if the opponent is holding an Item
- The notion of losing an Item doesnt exactly make it broken, as proved by how Trick and Knock Off itself exist in the Metagame (or in KO's case the previous one) without dispute
- Mainly (if not only) Pokemon with STAB really hit hard. And with the most infamous user of the STAB Knock Off, Bisharp, is Banned, only Weavile is another noteworthy user of it (he is the only that comes to mind to me atm).
- Very few Pokemon actually rely on their Item for Viability and/or Usage, as Leftovers isn't what makes Bronzong a good Diggersby Counter, and the Scarf isn't Keldeo's only option, and many (again, Keldeo is a good example) can function just fine without their Item, if not in the proposed Role you use it for.
- Knock Off doesn't even hit very hard on Pokemon without an Item, or an Item that can't be Knocked Off like a Mega Stone. Some have dubbed this "Knock Off dummy" even going as far to use it in context of a Role. Lol switch into your Megamon, or if it's too frail, a Wall that doesn't really need it's Leftovers, like Crobat or Hippowdon because they have Slack Off/Roost.
Now there is no doubt at all that Knock Off is a great Move, as it is resisted by few Pokemon, and has a great perk. But so is Scald, with it's few Resistances and chance to Burn and thus increase survivability. Should that be Banned too?
Rather then Banning a Move, lets focus on it's Users. Bisharp was one of them, and it is gone (for that and a number of other reasons). Weavile is another good example that I'll go back to, and it isn't broken enough imo to resort to that. Outside of using it's Power, Knock Off is just another Trick or Low Sweep to me, and even that is only threatening on certain Pokemon.
Doesn't really sound right to me.
UnicornDemon
Banned deucer.
Oh right, I forgot about shadow ball. Thank you for that correction. I guess I was just fixated on the nuke that is Hyper Voice.
Actually, now that I think about it, Jirachi's not that good of a check because of will-o-wisp. And Gardevoir has enough special bulk to stomach a flash cannon. I haven't been playing UU as much lately, but looking back I think I usually sent out my specially defensive Snorlax against Gardevoir as opposed to my scarf Victini. But yeah, M-Gardevoir is pretty difficult to check.
The reason I had no problem with Medicham is because my team had a physically defensive Reuniclus that could set up calm minds against it. Medicham doesn't have any coverage options against opposing psychic types, so defensive ones like Mew or Reuniclus are a good answer. And, btw, I wasn't saying Diggersby was better than or even as good as M-Medicham. Just that my team had no solution to it. I guess I could fix this by changing my team around, but I'm just too lazy...
your right. i forgot about metagross. thanks for pointing that out
Gotcha. Reuniclus is so underrated in uu, being super bulky with cm, magic guard, and recover. I guess the dominant dark dudes are discouraging...it's usage.
I would have to claim that assault vested empoleon and snorlax are mega gardevoir's only hard counters (variants lacking shadow ball have a couple more), and neither if which get recovery
It seems to me that the reason Reuniclus hasn't gotten more usage is just that the sheer number of viable Psychic-types in UU is mind-boggling (Mew, Celebi, Jirachi, Gardevoir, Cresselia, Slowbro, Victini, Gothitelle, Latias, Metagross, etc.). Don't get me wrong, Reuniclus is very good. But so are almost all of the ones I listed, and with Knock off as ubiquitous as it is, you probably don't want to run more than 1 or 2 of these.
Replying to bring this back up because he's right, even if it is a nitpick.
I wasn't considering to use Mega. Just switch in for the hail and hope I can savely spam Blizzards or switch in something with a more powerful blizzard aka. Kyurem.
Knock off whike very hindering lost its main abuser in bisbarp. While it is true that other pokes get it and krrokodile and crawdaunt are arguably the best abusers atm, they are noth relatively easy to check anx counter. Chesnaught doesnt care about any of their stabs or coverage moves. It doesnt mind losing its item sijce it has access to synthesis. Are there other options as far as knock off is considered? Sure, but im not going to overprepare for knock off shuckle ...
As far as weavile and mega gard are concerned, they Can both be checked by av metagross. Hdles definitely shaping up to be a top tier threat this gen!
As far as weavile and mega gard are concerned, they Can both be checked by av metagross. Hdles definitely shaping up to be a top tier threat this gen!
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 312-369 (85.7 - 101.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
AV Metagross doesn't reliably check Weavile, I'm afraid.
AV Metagross doesn't reliably check Weavile, I'm afraid.
Metagross has a 94% chance to ohko weavile after stealth rock with bullet punch so yeah he can check weavile especially factoring prior damage including life orb on weavile...
Hes not a counter by any means, but he can check weavile reliably
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