Pokémon Yveltal

[Bandid]

Hone Claws is shit unless the Pokemon has Hustle, seems situational, why not just use Rain Dance + Hurricane anyways?

It's true that Hone Claws is shit, but Rain Dance + Hurricane is only for a specially offensive Yvetal.

 

[Helias]

Hone Claws is shit unless the Pokemon has Hustle, seems situational, why not just use Rain Dance + Hurricane anyways?

Rain Dance+Hurricane is still pretty bad, especially when Kyogre exists to invalidate the use of Rain Dance in general.

It's true that Hone Claws is shit, but Rain Dance + Hurricane is only for a specially offensive Yvetal.

If you realize that Hone Claws is shit, why do you have a set with it in the first place?

 

[ChaosNemesis]

Can someone run some calculation (both offensive and defensive) on those potential sets?

Yveltal
Modest 252Hp 252SAtk 4Spe
@ Life Orb
U-turn (yeah i know with modest isn't gonna hurt much but i didn't want to lose bulk)
Oblivion Wing
Dark Pulse
Focus Blast

Calm 252Hp 4SAtk 252SDef
@ Assault vest
Taunt
Substitute
Oblivion Wing
Dark Pulse

please...

 

[Hiphopanonymous]

Seems like a lot of people are picking Hurricane over OW due to the higher power, but after STAB, OW is 120 BP AND heals for 75% of the damage done. Possibly negating LO recoil is a pretty nice plus, and it doesn't have the nasty restriction of needing rain up to be spammable. Not to mention that Flying isn't a bad offensive type, and T-tar really shouldn't be wanting to come in and eat a Focus Miss.

Tl;dr: OW seems very underrated, and I think the move will wind up a staple on rainless teams due to the power and healing that it offers.

On a side note, that Base Speed isn't exactly bad--especially in Ubers.

 

[ChaosNemesis]

Assault Vest gives the user a perma-Taunt effect so you can't use Taunt and Substitute on that set.

I'm stupid...

 

[Haruno]

Seems like a lot of people are picking Hurricane over OW due to the higher power, but after STAB, OW is 120 BP AND heals for 75% of the damage done. Possibly negating LO recoil is a pretty nice plus, and it doesn't have the nasty restriction of needing rain up to be spammable. Not to mention that Flying isn't a bad offensive type, and T-tar really shouldn't be wanting to come in and eat a Focus Miss.

Tl;dr: OW seems very underrated, and I think the move will wind up a staple on rainless teams due to the power and healing that it offers.

On a side note, that Base Speed isn't exactly bad--especially in Ubers.

Outspeeding the slowest mons in ubers isn't a good benchmark for speed. Healing for 75% of the damage done is realistically only around 20% maximum while hurricane is far more reliable and powerful option. Overall I still maintain my stance that OW is overrated but mehs

 

[Manaphy]

Outspeeding the slowest mons in ubers isn't a good benchmark for speed

Considering most things in Ubers are base 90, 99 Speed is pretty good. It's not Starmie-tier fast or anything but it's still an important benchmark.

Healing for 75% of the damage done is realistically only around 20% maximum while hurricane is far more reliable and powerful option. Overall I still maintain my stance that OW is overrated but mehs

Oblivion Wing is going to heal far more than just 20% of your HP lol. Hurricane is a very powerful and strong option but I don't know how reliable it will be with the weather nerf.

 

[PK Gaming]

Checking this thing in standard will be a lot easier once we get access to Pokebank. At base 99, it sits below quite a few of some OU staples, and it's vulnerable to a ton of their STABs (Thundurus, Terrakion, etc). That said, it shouldn't be too hard to check it without them, especially since it's vulnerable to Stealth Rock. I feel like everyone is in this thread too fixated on outright "countering it" instead of checking it. That kind of attitude should have been thrown out the window after gen V.

Dark Pulse / Oblivion Wing / Sub | Focus Blast / Roost or a physical attacking set with Sucker Punch. It's a damn pity it doesn't get Superpower or some other strong physical attack.

BTW, I don't see a point to ever using Hurricane in standard, since it's effectively useless if you aren't using a dedicated rain team.

 

[syzygian]

Yveltal is shaping up to be pretty underrated... Its faster and bulkier than about half the tier in terms of mons that have more bloated attacking stats (around half the tier is base 90-95...), while still having attacking stats in the neighborhood of things like Darkrai, Arceus, and Ho-oh, all of which are established threats. It also just dethroned Arceus for hardest hitting priority in the game. Its stat layout is deceptive but also foreshadows versatility and unpredictability, in spite of its small movepool. It can stall, sweep, or wall-break, and it has *just* enough of a movepool to handle all of them without really being outclassed by anything thanks to its priority, reliable recovery, 2 immunities that are invaluable in ubers, and STAB on Dark type attacks on both the physical and special side, not to mention an ability to boost those attacks without having to use an item slot like Arceus. Once the Xerneas hype subsides I think we'll be surprised.

 

[Fireburn]

Checking this thing in standard will be a lot easier once we get access to Pokebank. At base 99, it sits below quite a few of some OU staples, and it's vulnerable to a ton of their STABs (Thundurus, Terrakion, etc). That said, it shouldn't be too hard to check it without them, especially since it's vulnerable to Stealth Rock. I feel like everyone is in this thread too fixated on outright "countering it" instead of checking it. That kind of attitude should have been thrown out the window after gen V.

Again, can you give us some specific checks please? I'm just not seeing them to be honest. A significant portion of the things that are faster than it in standard take a boatload of damage or outright die to Sucker Punch (Thundurus and Jolteon are OHKOed after SR with zero Attack investment and a neutral nature assuming Yveltal has at least Blackglasses, Latis, Starmie, Gengar straight up die, Alakazam is actually countered by Yveltal, Jirachi ain't doing jack with its new Dark weakness) So what does that leave? Keldeo, who cannot come close to OHKOing Yveltal after SR with Hydro Pump (does 54% max, it needs Choice Specs to OHKO) and lets it have a free heal with Oblivion Wing? Terrakion, who can only switch in once since after that the next attack + Sucker Punch destroys it? Scarf Salamence, who got nerfed hard this generation and still can't OHKO after SR (and neither can Garchomp without Choice Band)? Yveltal is not as easy to check as you seem to think it is. 99 Speed is actually quite good when backed by immunity to Sticky Web (this is huge) and the most powerful priority attack in the game IMO.

And for what it's worth, Hurricane isn't useless if you're packing Damp Rock Politoed or other manual rain setters (Genies, anyone?). Yveltal is actually excellent on an offensive rain team since it beats the ever-loving crap out of rain sweeper checks such as Celebi, Jellicent, Amoonguss, Latias, and Ferrothorn, steamrolls over Rotom-W, murders fast offensive Electrics and Starmie with Sucker Punch, and is only truly walled by pink blobs and Assault Vest Tyranitar...most of the time.

 

[Helias]

calcs

4 Atk Life Orb (custom) Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 99-117 (30.55 - 36.11%) -- 48.51% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb (custom) Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 120-140 (37.03 - 43.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb (custom) Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 131-155 (40.43 - 47.83%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Yes, that factors in Dark Aura.

252 Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 392-464 (108.28 - 128.17%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Yeah, Terrakion does a fairly good job of checking it, especially since Sucker Punch just gives Terrakion an attack boost. Hell, he could probably even bluff a Choice Scarf and set up a Substitute and Rock Polish / Swords Dance while Yveltal runs for cover or desperately uses Sucker Punch.

EDIT: I may or may not have messed up the calcs. I'm assuming Dark Aura is a 20% boost to Dark-type moves.

 

[Manaphy]

Yeah that's wrong it's 30%

 

[PK Gaming]

Again, can you give us some specific checks please? I'm just not seeing them to be honest. A significant portion of the things that are faster than it in standard take a boatload of damage or outright die to Sucker Punch (Thundurus and Jolteon are OHKOed after SR with zero Attack investment and a neutral nature assuming Yveltal has at least Blackglasses, Latis, Starmie, Gengar straight up die, Alakazam is actually countered by Yveltal, Jirachi ain't doing jack with its new Dark weakness) So what does that leave? Keldeo, who cannot come close to OHKOing Yveltal after SR with Hydro Pump (does 54% max, it needs Choice Specs to OHKO) and lets it have a free heal with Oblivion Wing? Terrakion, who can only switch in once since after that the next attack + Sucker Punch destroys it? Scarf Salamence, who got nerfed hard this generation and still can't OHKO after SR (and neither can Garchomp without Choice Band)? Yveltal is not as easy to check as you seem to think it is. 99 Speed is actually quite good when backed by immunity to Sticky Web (this is huge) and the most powerful priority attack in the game IMO.

And for what it's worth, Hurricane isn't useless if you're packing Damp Rock Politoed or other manual rain setters (Genies, anyone?). Yveltal is actually excellent on an offensive rain team since it beats the ever-loving crap out of rain sweeper checks such as Celebi, Jellicent, Amoonguss, Latias, and Ferrothorn, steamrolls over Rotom-W, murders fast offensive Electrics and Starmie with Sucker Punch, and is only truly walled by pink blobs and Assault Vest Tyranitar...most of the time.

You can literally make any Pokemon top tier ound ridiculous by mentioning how it deals with its checks and counters (see every C&C analysis for top tier Pokemon). I don't necessarily disagree that it can bypass these threats, but i'm confused as to why you tried to insult my intelligence by suggesting Alakazam as a potential check over acceptable checks like Choice Scarf Tyranitar or Azumarill. Pokemon isn't just a game of countering and checking; it's dynamic, there are times Yveltal isn't going to always work as intended. For example, you claim that nothing can switch into Yveltal but the reverse is also true. It simply won't have many opportunities to switch into other Pokemon (especially if Stealth Rock is up). On revenge kills, Yveltal itself is going to have difficulty forcing things out with that base speed stat, other than relying on that horribly telegraphed Sucker Punch.

Really, I'm seriously not sure how it can use Sucker Punch to completely mitigate it's speed stat. If you want a fully powered Sucker Punch, you need to use max attack, which makes all of its Special options weaker. The thing, it's movepool is mostly special, so you're going to have to split your EVs if you want to make good use of its special moves which lowers its offense. For gods sake, you're acting like Yveltal has access to all of it's sets at the same time. When you describe it i'm envisioning a set that consists of Sucker Punch, Dark Pulse, Oblivion Wing, Roost and Focus Blast, with maxed out evs. For example, it can't steamroll Rotom-W if it invests in Attack (who's just going to switch in and burn you) and it can't deal with faster checks if it's Sucker Punch isn't fully powered up. Splitting EVs is perfectly permissible, but it just makes it that weaker on both sides. (Fun fact, non maxed Speed Yveltal is actually outspeed by Timid Rotom-W by a single point.)

By the way, it's only dealing 48~% to Terrakion with Sucker Punch at most; when I said that Terrakion was a check, I meant that it could always be counted on to revenge kill it/switch into a dark-type move, there's no need to mention that it's dying to Focus Blast or w/e, it's implicit knowledge. Keldeo doesn't need Choice Specs to beat Yveltal, it can absolutely murk it with just life orb alone (252 SpA Life Orb Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD : (73.53 - 86.76%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock), and even non Life Orb Hydro Pump deals a significant amount of damage to if Stealth Rock is considered. Garchomp is absolutely a check, since it can force it out with Stone Edge or Outrage. Even Ice Shard users can deal with it if it's at a low enough percentage.

I'm not trying to imply that it's a bad Pokemon (it's going to kick some serious ass), but it's base 99 Speed is unquestionably mediocre in standard, and the existence of Stealth Rock makes its easier to pressure it. It's a guess, I don't think it will be top tier.

BTW: It's far too early to make any serious metagame assumptions about Sticky Web.

 

[Fireburn]

You can literally make any Pokemon top tier ound ridiculous by mentioning how it deals with its checks and counters (see every C&C analysis for top tier Pokemon). I don't necessarily disagree that it can bypass these threats, but i'm confused as to why you tried to insult my intelligence by suggesting Alakazam as a potential check over acceptable checks like Choice Scarf Tyranitar or Azumarill. Pokemon isn't just a game of countering and checking; it's dynamic. There are times Yveltal isn't going to always work as intended. For example, you claim that nothing can switch into Yveltal but the reverse is also true. It simply won't have many opportunities to switch into other Pokemon (especially if Stealth Rock is up). On revenge kills, Yveltal itself is going to have difficulty forcing things out with that base speed stat, other than relying on that horribly telegraphed Sucker Punch. I'm seriously not sure how it can use Sucker Punch to completely mitigate it's speed stat. If you want a fully powered Sucker Punch, you need to use max attack, which makes all of its Special options weaker. The thing, it's movepool is mostly special, so you're going to have to split your EVs if you want to make good use of its special moves which lowers its offense. For gods sake, you're acting like Yveltal has access to all of it's sets at the same time. When you describe it i'm envisioning a set that consists of Sucker Punch, Dark Pulse, Oblivion Wing, Roost and Focus Blast, with maxed out evs.It can't steamroll Rotom-W if it invests in Attack (who's just going to switch in and burn you) and it can't deal with faster checks if it's Sucker Punch isn't fully powered up. Splitting EVs is perfectly permissible, but it just makes it that weaker on both sides. (Fun fact, non maxed Speed Yveltal is actually outspeed by Timid Rotom-W by a single point.)

By the way, it's only dealing 45~% to Terrakion with Sucker Punch at most; when I said that Terrakion was a check, I meant that it could always be counted on to revenge kill it/switch into a dark-type move, there's no need to mention that it's dying to Focus Blast or w/e, it's implicit knowledge. Keldeo doesn't need Choice Specs to beat Yveltal, it can absolutely murk it with just life orb alone (252 SpA Life Orb Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD : (73.53 - 86.76%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock), and even non Life Orb Hydro Pump deals a significant amount of damage to if Stealth Rock is considered. Garchomp is absolutely a check, since it can force it out with Stone Edge or Outrage. Even Ice Shard users can deal with it if it's at a low enough percentage.

I'm not at all implying that's bad, but it's base 99 Speed is unquestionably mediocre in standard, and the existence of Stealth Rock makes its easy to pressure it. I'm absolutely positive that the standard metagame will change and adapt to accommodate Yveltal.

It's far too early to make any serious metagame assumptions about Sticky Web.

I was not trying to insult your intelligence by mentioning Alakazam and if it sounded like it I sincerely apologize, I should have been clearer on that. Didn't mean to offend you. :[

The set I was visualizing was the mixed set in the OP:

Yveltal @ Life Orb
Trait: Dark Aura
EVs: 252 SpA / 224 Speed / 32 Atk
Nature: Mild / Hasty
-Dark Pulse
-Oblivion Wing / Hurricane
-Sucker Punch
-Roost

(I don't see where I was trying to make it sound like it had five moveslots since it really only needs Focus Blast for one Pokemon - Tyranitar. I actually wasn't thinking about Focus Blast at all.)

The thing is, Yveltal doesn't need to split EVs for Sucker Punch at all - it already OHKOes a lot of faster would-be checks such as Thundurus and Jolteon (heck, freaking Garchomp takes 53% minimum from 0 Atk Yveltal holding Life Orb) - so it can run full investment for murderous special attacks. What Sucker Punch does do, however, is dramatically narrow the pool of possible things that can be used as faster checks, so you don't feel the shortcomings of 99 Speed as much. At the end of the day, you're left with Scarf Tyranitar, Terrakion, LO/Specs Keldeo (I admit I forgot about LO, thanks for reminding me), Mamoswine, and Garchomp (again, this is what I am thinking of as of now) as things that can outspeed Yveltal and check it without dying horribly to Sucker Punch...but none of them can switch in well at all, all they can do is revenge kill. Garchomp is KOed by any attack followed by Sucker Punch, Keldeo is OHKOed by Yveltal's choice of Flying STAB, Mamoswine fails to OHKO with Ice Shard after SR and has a ton of HP for Yveltal to leech with Oblivion Wing, provided Mamo not below 60% HP where Sucker Punch kills. I will give you Scarf Tyranitar since I admittedly didn't think of it earlier. Terrakion is only a reliable switch if sandstorm is up. Without it, it can switch in and check Yveltal exactly once - Dark Pulse does 41% min, and if Rak takes more damage (lets say a layer of spikes is up) or tries to come in on another attack, it is in KO range of Sucker Punch. Is Terrakion a check to Yveltal? Definitely yes, and I wasn't trying to say it wasn't a check. Is it a good one? Sure...once. And it's not like Yveltal has to predict terribly well - these are literally just its STAB moves, both of which have amazing offensive coverage in Gen 6. Dark/Flying STAB coverage is soooo much better now since Steel lost its resistance to Dark.

Furthermore, Azumarill and Rotom-W are terrible answers to it. Azu is 2HKOed by Dark Pulse + Oblivion Wing (which heals off Aqua Jet damage maxing out at 41%) + Rocks, 252 HP Rotom-W takes 75% min from Dark Pulse and has no reliable recovery. The Specially Defensive set maxes at 48% with Volt Switch to 0 HP Yveltal which is pitiful and its slower, and Scarf can't come in at all. Being forced to run 252+ on Rotom-W without Scarf takes away from its other stats significantly just to check one Pokemon inadequately.

And you do have to admit that, yes, while SR is a pain to Yveltal, it's not as crippling to it as other mons. It has 126/95/98 defenses. It has Roost. One of its STAB moves drains 75% HP. It has ways to get around the rocks, despite its weakness. Yveltal also does have a fair few switch-in targets, for the record. Of particular note is its Ghost resistance, which is huge considering all the buffs ghosts have gotten this gen. Hippowdon, Zam, Latias, Latios (obviously not full power Draco Meteor), Celebi, Amoonguss, Venusaur, stuff like Jellicent, Gengar, Aegislash, Skarmory, Forretress, Ferrothorn, the Magic Bouncers, Sheer Force Landorus, pivot Landorus-T...Yveltal is not made of paper.

Basically all I am trying to say is that you are underestimating Yveltal significantly. I just think you shouldn't be so quick to treat it like another Kyurem(-B). That's what Zygarde is for.

 

[Schpoonman]

Yveltal is shaping up to be pretty underrated... Its faster and bulkier than about half the tier in terms of mons that have more bloated attacking stats (around half the tier is base 90-95...), while still having attacking stats in the neighborhood of things like Darkrai, Arceus, and Ho-oh, all of which are established threats. It also just dethroned Arceus for hardest hitting priority in the game. Its stat layout is deceptive but also foreshadows versatility and unpredictability, in spite of its small movepool. It can stall, sweep, or wall-break, and it has *just* enough of a movepool to handle all of them without really being outclassed by anything thanks to its priority, reliable recovery, 2 immunities that are invaluable in ubers, and STAB on Dark type attacks on both the physical and special side, not to mention an ability to boost those attacks without having to use an item slot like Arceus. Once the Xerneas hype subsides I think we'll be surprised.

Arceus was never the hardest-hitting priority user. That title has belonged to Absol since Gen IV and he matches Yveltal's 130 base Attack while MegaAbsol is even stronger.

 

[Pac-man9]

Arceus was never the hardest-hitting priority user. That title has belonged to Absol since Gen IV and he matches Yveltal's 130 base Attack while MegaAbsol is even stronger.

Well actually yveltal has 131 attack(troll) but your point still stands. I do believe the xerneas hype is getting out of control though. Watch as everyone builds teams designated to check it, and then its playability falls. I have said before that magician delphox counters it, but delphox isn't getting into ubers anytime soon, so there's that..

 

[Schpoonman]

I'm not getting a conclusive answer on Magician, but what I'm seeing is that it steals your item when it makes contact (such as you attacking with Return as opposed to Pickpocket which has to have something attack you). How does that counter Yveltal?

EDIT: Wow, I totally missed that, ignore me.

 

[Atomsage]

I'm not getting a conclusive answer on Magician, but what I'm seeing is that it steals your item when it makes contact (such as you attacking with Return as opposed to Pickpocket which has to have something attack you). How does that counter Yveltal?

He was talking about Xerneas.

 

[Haruno]

Remind me again why we're talking about yveltal in a ou setting as opposed to an ubers setting?

 

[Schpoonman]

Because this isn't an exclusively OU subforum. There's topics for Xerneas and Mewtwo here as well.

 

[widget624]

Can someone help a newb. Which build would you say are the better of the two that are listed? At least on paper.

 

[Viktor24]

Yveltal @ Life Orb
Trait: Dark Aura
Evs: 4 Hp / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature : Modest / Timid
- Oblivion Wing
- Dark Pulse
- Focus Blast
- Substitute / Taunt
This set might look really simple, but once you feel the pain you won't think the same. Thanks to OW restoring 75% of the massive damage done (Xerneas takes 50% with Modest Nature) Yveltal won't be going down anytime soon. 75% is so much and in my experience it usually restores over 25%. A modest nature grants you many OHKOs with Dark Pulse specially after sr (I'm a bit lazy to type. test it out on PS) while a Timid nature lets you outspeed anything below base 99 (obvi). Substitute works great alongside OW and eases prediction while taunt lets you beat Blissey/Chansey and mess with defensive teams overall.
You have to test this thing out to see what a beast it is. It's soooooo not OU.

 

[Pac-man9]

Who said yveltal would be OU?

 

[Hrothgar]

As much as I love this thing, saying it has the strongest priority in the game is a bit misleading. Absol and arceus are both going to be heavily invested in attack, while yveltal's move pool suggest it should be investing mostly in spa even as a mixed attacker.

Then again, we haven't seen it's whole movepool yet. Or have we?

 

[Fireburn]

Just wanted to reiterate that I dunno what any tiering will be like until when/if the metagame officially starts, so please do not discuss tiering. (I was just trying to respond to PK's posts.)

I also updated the OP with Yveltal's compete TM learnset. It seems it actually can't learn Payback, though it gets Steel Wing for Fairies which is...maybe useful.