Pokémon Zygarde

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Since it doesn't look like he'll get the usage to be OU
And a few pages ago you were on my side.



After tonight I fully believe Zygarde is OU material (approximately 8 victories using him and not dying). Just keep him away from Ice Beams and Draco Meteors and you're okay. One Dragon Dance and he is amazing. Two Dragon Dances and he is a fucking monster. (Also give him a lum berry to protect him from being burned/swaggered)
 
Been soft resetting for the right nature. Was going for Adamant, but I just caught a Careful one with perfect IVs in Atk, Def, Spc Def, and Speed. It's so tempting to keep it I don't know what to do. DX

Any merit to Careful in boosting sets? Or is it just better off with the added attack power since it won't tank an Ice Beam from anything significant anyway.
 
Been soft resetting for the right nature. Was going for Adamant, but I just caught a Careful one with perfect IVs in Atk, Def, Spc Def, and Speed. It's so tempting to keep it I don't know what to do. DX

Any merit to Careful in boosting sets? Or is it just better off with the added attack power since it won't tank an Ice Beam from anything significant anyway.
Try a Coil set. Haven't checked the discussion of this thread thoroughly enough, but from inspection it is hella good. You can dump max investment in HP and SP. DEF, with Coil boosting your Defense. Then you can proceed to use Earthquake for a good stab, Dragon Tail for a good phazing move, and Extremespeed for priority. I heard Glare is real good on this guy too. Good luck, and others feel free to correct me on some stuff.
 
And a few pages ago you were on my side.



After tonight I fully believe Zygarde is OU material (approximately 8 victories using him and not dying). Just keep him away from Ice Beams and Draco Meteors and you're okay. One Dragon Dance and he is amazing. Two Dragon Dances and he is a fucking monster. (Also give him a lum berry to protect him from being burned/swaggered)
He probably just means usage statistics. Even Salamence is dropping this time, and KyuremB is currently Uu.

Anyway both are probably gettin kicked out later.
 
And a few pages ago you were on my side.



After tonight I fully believe Zygarde is OU material (approximately 8 victories using him and not dying). Just keep him away from Ice Beams and Draco Meteors and you're okay. One Dragon Dance and he is amazing. Two Dragon Dances and he is a fucking monster. (Also give him a lum berry to protect him from being burned/swaggered)
I'm still on your side. I have 3 OU teams and Zygarde is on my second one, and still dominating. I was indeed referring to usage stats and that he will not get banned from UU for the foreseeable future, so why not use him. I was not suggesting he's not viable in OU, because anybody who's used him (correctly) knows he is
 
I'm still on your side. I have 3 OU teams and Zygarde is on my second one, and still dominating. I was indeed referring to usage stats and that he will not get banned from UU for the foreseeable future, so why not use him. I was not suggesting he's not viable in OU, because anybody who's used him (correctly) knows he is
To me, the Pokemon was too slow, did not have Stealth Rock, and it is quite susceptible to Burns. It really had nothing to hit Rotom-W with reliably, except ExtremeSpeed.

It has to compete with Lando-T, who is "faster" as it offers more immediate power, has a good ability, can escape an incoming Rotom-W with U-turn, and can set-up Stealth Rock. Indeed, they are two different Pokemon with different niches although they have some overlap (such as Earthquake and Stone Edge user as an Adamant Zygarde offers as much immediate power as an uninvested Lando), but the metagame has judged that Lando-T's niche (Stealth Rock setter, Excadrill counter, and bulky offensive pivot) is more valuable than Zygarde's niche (weak priority revenge killer and bulky sweeper with a 100% accurate Stone Edge). Using Zygarde constrains you from using him in the early and middle game when all its counters are weakened for a Coil sweep.
 
To me, the Pokemon was too slow, did not have Stealth Rock, and it is quite susceptible to Burns. It really had nothing to hit Rotom-W with reliably, except ExtremeSpeed.

It has to compete with Lando-T, who is "faster" as it offers more immediate power, has a good ability, can escape an incoming Rotom-W with U-turn, and can set-up Stealth Rock. Indeed, they are two different Pokemon with different niches although they have some overlap (such as Earthquake and Stone Edge user as an Adamant Zygarde offers as much immediate power as an uninvested Lando), but the metagame has judged that Lando-T's niche (Stealth Rock setter, Excadrill counter, and bulky offensive pivot) is more valuable than Zygarde's niche (weak priority revenge killer and bulky sweeper with a 100% accurate Stone Edge). Using Zygarde constrains you from using him in the early and middle game when all its counters are weakened for a Coil sweep.
Um, what was the point of comparing Zygarde to Landorus? In fact, what's the point to comparing Zygarde to any pokemon? Zygarde's moveset and stats are perfectly made for its unique tanky sweepy niche and really no other pokemon does it better. If it had stealth rocks, I don't think I'd use it as then it would try to compete with pokemon that probably do it better. It's not slow either, just not blindingly fast. It outspeeds a lot, and the only things it doesn't outspeed are typically pretty frail, and susceptible to extremespeed. The burn thing hurts it, but the only real WoW user I see sticking around very long is Rotom-W (I say "only", even though that one is enough), and scald isn't nearly as popular as it was last gen, so burn's not that huge of a detriment. Its big flaws are a unique playing style that most people are too lazy to learn, and a weakness to special attackers that outspeed him.

Because of this, I'm going to try to make a list of checks, and the best way to handle them with different sets. I'll be adding them over the next few hours and I'd love suggestions.

Rotom-W - Always switch out if possible. Taking a WoW is not an option, unless you already more than +2 atk or something
Greninja - You need 1 DD to outspeed and OHKO with earthquake, or 3 Coils to OHKO with extremespeed. If you don't have either, switch out if possible
Gengar - Only 3HKO's, while you 2HKO without boosts. If you don't have any boosts yet, you might want to switch to a special wall, because you'll take a lot of damage, but stone edge is more than enough to beat this pokemon
Weavile - You need 2 speed boosts to out speed, and 3 atk boosts to OHKO with ESpeed, otherwise, you'll probably want to switch out.
Noivern - same as weavile, 2 DDs or 3 coils needed or you're OHKO'd
Skarmory - He's probably gonna whirlwind you, so just use stone edge to give some damage before you go
Gliscor - Just switch if possible, it takes 4 atk boosts to 2HKO, and he's probably just going to toxic stall or 4HKO you with EQ
Azumarill - CB sets OHKO you unless you have +2 Def, so switch out unless got 2 boosts off already. If you do have +2 Atk, just EQ
Clefable - You can 2HKO him by just spamming EQ, but you'll take up to 70% damage, so consider switching out
Slowbro - you're 2HKO'd by ice beam, and you need 2 atk boosts just to 2HKO. If you magically got 6 coils off, then you outspeed and OHKO, but otherwise, either prep your revenge killer or switch out
Dragonite - If you have +4 atk, stone edge for the OHKO, if you don't, then you're in trouble. DD sets will take up to 82% damage on the turn you break Multiscale, but you don't have have to worry about being outsped if he go's for the DD instead. Coil users will get out sped after one DD, don't have to worry about getting OHKO'd unless he has more atk boosts than you have def boosts. This match up is usually determined by how smart your opponent is. If he go's for the quick KO and fails, you'll win (but take heavy damage in the process). If he tries to boost when you already set up, you'll win. If you were weakened by your last opponent or you couldn't get a couple boosts off, you're screwed.
 
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Zygarde works as a bulky sweeper. There's no point on comparing him to another mons because, really, there's no pokemon with his same type and movepool. Standard Coil Zygarde can easily come into a Talonflame and scare it out or just Stone Edge him. The thing is Hippowdon without the sand and with a decent SpDef and Speed. It can't take repeated punishment on the special side, though, so just keep him out from that kind of things. One counter to the Coil variant is Ferrothorn, Unaware Clefable and Quagsire can also Toxic stall him since he doesn't pack an immediate punch. Defensive variants of Virizion can also come and sponge, the same can be said for MVenusaur.
 
Um, what was the point of comparing Zygarde to Landorus? In fact, what's the point to comparing Zygarde to any pokemon? Zygarde's moveset and stats are perfectly made for its unique tanky sweepy niche and really no other pokemon does it better. If it had stealth rocks, I don't think I'd use it as then it would try to compete with pokemon that probably do it better. It's not slow either, just not blindingly fast. It outspeeds a lot, and the only things it doesn't outspeed are typically pretty frail, and susceptible to extremespeed. The burn thing hurts it, but the only real WoW user I see sticking around very long is Rotom-W (I say "only", even though that one is enough), and scald isn't nearly as popular as it was last gen, so burn's not that huge of a detriment. Its big flaws are a unique playing style that most people are too lazy to learn, and a weakness to special attackers that outspeed him. Because of this, I'm going to try to make a list of checks, and the best way to handle them with different sets. I'll be adding them over the next few hours.

Rotom-W - Always switch out. Taking a WoW is not an option
When I said "slow", I mean it takes too much time to accomplish what it should do. It is slow as it is not immediately threatening nor could it pivot out and provide momentum when faced without something that threatens it, such as Rotom-W. Using it simply deprives you of a useful early to middle game Pokemon.

Indeed many people are too lazy to use him properly; like all Pokemon, one has to be aware of the match-ups and how to exploit them. Basically, its modus operandi is to set-up on some slower physical attacker (not running an Ice move) with a Coil or two, and then Sweep; there is no doubt that it can be effective if you can get the set-up with proper early and middle game decisions. However, it does not provide support or utility; it is a recipient of support or utility in the middle to end game decisions. It is a different type of sweeper, perhaps one that most people are not familiar with, as "sweepers" now rely on outspeeding threats with increasing their speed or priority (ExtremeSpeed helps its sweep by preventing it from being revenge killed from weakened faster threats or providing it with some extra power to finish off faster Pokemon, not a primary attack). Many people have not seen or used a Curse sweeper in Gen 5 or 6, and most players would be unfamiliar with the concept of using bulk not speed as a means of prolonging a sweep.

It has enough bulk to act as an emergency check against those who are weak to Zygarde's attacks, but that is not the optimal way of using it.

Unlike Landorus-T, it does provide a win condition. Lando-T suits a more tactical style (and gives the player more tactical options) while Zygarde is more strategic.
 
When I said "slow", I mean it takes too much time to accomplish what it should do. It is slow as it is not immediately threatening nor could it pivot out and provide momentum when faced without something that threatens it, such as Rotom-W. Using it simply deprives you of a useful early to middle game Pokemon.

Indeed many people are too lazy to use him properly; like all Pokemon, one has to be aware of the match-ups and how to exploit them. Basically, its modus operandi is to set-up on some slower physical attacker (not running an Ice move) with a Coil or two, and then Sweep; there is no doubt that it can be effective if you can get the set-up with proper early and middle game decisions. However, it does not provide support or utility; it is a recipient of support or utility in the middle to end game decisions. It is a different type of sweeper, perhaps one that most people are not familiar with, as "sweepers" now rely on outspeeding threats with increasing their speed or priority (ExtremeSpeed helps its sweep by preventing it from being revenge killed from weakened faster threats or providing it with some extra power to finish off faster Pokemon, not a primary attack). Many people have not seen or used a Curse sweeper in Gen 5 or 6, and most players would be unfamiliar with the concept of using bulk not speed as a means of prolonging a sweep.

It has enough bulk to act as an emergency check against those who are weak to Zygarde's attacks, but that is not the optimal way of using it.

Unlike Landorus-T, it does provide a win condition. Lando-T suits a more tactical style (and gives the player more tactical options) while Zygarde is more strategic.
Its not bulk instead of speed, its bulk AND speed. Its about knowing who outspeeds you, how much damage they can do to you, how much your extremespeed will damage them, and what the odds of something like a crit or lucky stat change throwing your hard work down the toilet. Its about knowing when to stop boosting and go on the offensive. Its about looking at team preview and seeing immediately which pokemon you can bring him in on and which need to be weakened before you want to use him. All pokemon have these problems, but most of them are much simpler. For Gliscor, its knowing which pokemon can bypass substitute, and which are immune to toxic/earthquake. That's easy. For Talonflame, its knowing which pokemon can survive your brave bird and KO you back. Zygarde is so much more complex. If you want to use Zygarde, you not only need to be smart and strategic, you also need to put in time with it to learn these things the hard way so you'll remember them. Most people refuse to do that, and its their loss
 
I'm still on your side. I have 3 OU teams and Zygarde is on my second one, and still dominating. I was indeed referring to usage stats and that he will not get banned from UU for the foreseeable future, so why not use him. I was not suggesting he's not viable in OU, because anybody who's used him (correctly) knows he is

I guess I misread.

Gotta defend somethings. Based on my Experience Zygarde may be the most underrated pokemon I have ever seen, and I'm not talking Empoleon underrated where people doubt his ability to be effective in OU, I'm talking about he is lethal as hell and yet people ignore him because "He is not a threat".

On showdown he took 2, yes that is a two right there, Talonflame Brave Birds (Each doing 40% damage). Unboosted but still heavy priority, he managed to get hit twice (Boost with Dragon Dance), then hit back with Extreme Speed with a OHKO. Rinse and Repeat on what else I could before something tanking capable lived.
 
Have anyone tried the fully physically defensive Zygarde? Terminate, I don't know what spread that particular Talonflame was running, but 252/252+ Zygarde takes a max of 41% from Adamant CB Brave Bird. He's been a TREMENDOUS physical wall in my usage, bulkier than either Skarmory or Hippowdon, and he does a RestTalk set very well.
 
more Camoflage apologies: double edge sword being bulky Normal-type?

Started to be more "serious" about toying around with "dedicated" Camoflage "sets" and the attacking moves that mattered were coming off Normal + Rock + Dragon coverage. I did try HP Fire for some Skarmory problems but found it better (with out Coil) to just take the Whirlwind, as mentioned, Dragon Tail it, or just switch.

Status ailments. Zygarde is one hell of a magnet for them it seems, as mentioned, and so I toyed around with a
"ChestoRest, Camoflage, Faceade, Dragon Tail... Zygarde"
Did okay but I got it killed by a Force Palm + Smelling Salts Hariyama parahax. So added Paralysis, flinch, and confusion
to my Zygarde aspirations.

I feel like a terrible fan of the Hoenn games when trolling around sims/friends with Camoflage Zygarde as it feels like I'm in charge of a half health Truant Slaking for most of the match.

Am aware Zygarde naturally lacks Truant, but for the number of times "I got myself stuck" having to click Camoflage or Dragon Tail? Yeah. Truant Zygarde (sic) can be a thing.
 
Does he not get SR? I feel like he's already outclassed in the bulky dragon/ground department by chomp (and the fact he apparently doesn't even get SR doesn't help the case :/.)
 

aVocado

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Has no one tried a ChestoRest DD Zygarde? The set would look like this:
@ Chesto Berry
Adamant - 106 HP / 252 Atk / 156 Spe
Dragon Dance - Rest - Earthquake/Outrage - Stone Edge

Granted, not the best coverage in the world with Dragon/Rock, but still good nonetheless. EVs are so it can outspeed choice scarf base 110s at +2, maximum power possible, with the rest dumped in bulk. This set, on paper, could set up at least 4 Dragon Dances. Grabbing 2 while tanking damage if it's from neutral hits or a status user, resting up, and then depending on the matchup from there, either continue setting up or start sweeping. I haven't tested it, it's all on-paper, but it looks promising tbh.

Zygarde's biggest enemy is pHazing imo. Skarmory has to be dealt with asap.
 
Have anyone tried the fully physically defensive Zygarde? Terminate, I don't know what spread that particular Talonflame was running, but 252/252+ Zygarde takes a max of 41% from Adamant CB Brave Bird. He's been a TREMENDOUS physical wall in my usage, bulkier than either Skarmory or Hippowdon, and he does a RestTalk set very well.
What will be your attack?

Earthquake? Too many Pokemon are immune to it. ExtremeSpeed and Stone Edge have PP issues and are too weak.

Dragon Claw gives stab and some nice PP (as much as Scald for Crocune) although Fairies are immune to it.
 
Have anyone tried the fully physically defensive Zygarde? Terminate, I don't know what spread that particular Talonflame was running, but 252/252+ Zygarde takes a max of 41% from Adamant CB Brave Bird. He's been a TREMENDOUS physical wall in my usage, bulkier than either Skarmory or Hippowdon, and he does a RestTalk set very well.
I run a defense set shown above a few posts ago with Impish 200hp 56atk 252def. You can run D-tail or DragonClaw to hit Talonflame but if stealth rocks are up perhaps D-tail is better so you can phaze out Talon and itll die on the next switch in.

Does he not get SR? I feel like he's already outclassed in the bulky dragon/ground department by chomp (and the fact he apparently doesn't even get SR doesn't help the case :/.)
After using my Zyguardian set so much i think stealth rocks would only hinder his defensive capabilities. Plus Garhomp couldnt do what Zygarde can do defensively they are comparable at all.
 
Has no one tried a ChestoRest DD Zygarde? The set would look like this:
@ Chesto Berry
Adamant - 106 HP / 252 Atk / 156 Spe
Dragon Dance - Rest - Earthquake/Outrage - Stone Edge

Granted, not the best coverage in the world with Dragon/Rock, but still good nonetheless. EVs are so it can outspeed choice scarf base 110s at +2, maximum power possible, with the rest dumped in bulk. This set, on paper, could set up at least 4 Dragon Dances. Grabbing 2 while tanking damage if it's from neutral hits or a status user, resting up, and then depending on the matchup from there, either continue setting up or start sweeping. I haven't tested it, it's all on-paper, but it looks promising tbh.

Zygarde's biggest enemy is pHazing imo. Skarmory has to be dealt with asap.
I highly doubt your opponent will let you get 4 Dragon Dances before hitting you with an Ice or Dragon move. Earthquake and Stone Edge give the best coverage and Outrage is not very reliable with Fairies, Steels, and Confusion. Still, it's a decent set and definitely has the benefit of taking a Burn while boosting up. I can see this set being useful setting up against Rotom-W and even Entei (but CB Sacred Fire and burn damage racks up).

What will be your attack?

Earthquake? Too many Pokemon are immune to it. ExtremeSpeed and Stone Edge have PP issues and are too weak.

Dragon Claw gives stab and some nice PP (as much as Scald for Crocune) although Fairies are immune to it.
Earthquake s your best STAB move and PP is rarely an issue unless you're playing stall. Zygarde doesn't learn Dragon Claw unfortunately.
 
Does he not get SR? I feel like he's already outclassed in the bulky dragon/ground department by chomp (and the fact he apparently doesn't even get SR doesn't help the case :/.)
did you read any of the last 16 pages? Garchomp and Zygarde play completely differently. Its true a lot of people won't choose to use Zygarde because of Garchomp, but they don't out class each other at anything. The term I'd use is overshadow, because not a lot of people see Zygarde simply because of how big Garchomp is. If Zygarde is outclassed by something, it's Dragonite, because they both are bulky set up sweepers with similar weakness, but even they are different enough that its hard to compare them.

As for the SR comment, I'll repeat myself. If Zygarde had SR, I don't know why people would use it on him. Wasting a turn that could be used to set up would be a terrible idea on any set but the sub/dragon tail one, and that set is already doing fine without needing to compete with other gen 5 stall threats. Glare's arguably more useful anyways.
 
did you read any of the last 16 pages? Garchomp and Zygarde play completely differently. Its true a lot of people won't choose to use Zygarde because of Garchomp, but they don't out class each other at anything. The term I'd use is overshadow, because not a lot of people see Zygarde simply because of how big Garchomp is. If Zygarde is outclassed by something, it's Dragonite, because they both are bulky set up sweepers with similar weakness, but even they are different enough that its hard to compare them.

As for the SR comment, I'll repeat myself. If Zygarde had SR, I don't know why people would use it on him. Wasting a turn that could be used to set up would be a terrible idea on any set but the sub/dragon tail one, and that set is already doing fine without needing to compete with other gen 5 stall threats. Glare's arguably more useful anyways.
Just to add on: Glare would be the proper move to use a bulky/defensive Zyg (bulky being bulky offensive...defferent from defensive Zyg). This isnt to say you cant run Glare on a DD or Coil set but it wouldnt work as well. Also Rocks would give it a wasted turn in comparison to other Hazard users, many of which would infact do it better (Mamo, T-tar, Skarm, even Chomp).
 
did you read any of the last 16 pages? Garchomp and Zygarde play completely differently. Its true a lot of people won't choose to use Zygarde because of Garchomp, but they don't out class each other at anything. The term I'd use is overshadow, because not a lot of people see Zygarde simply because of how big Garchomp is. If Zygarde is outclassed by something, it's Dragonite, because they both are bulky set up sweepers with similar weakness, but even they are different enough that its hard to compare them.

As for the SR comment, I'll repeat myself. If Zygarde had SR, I don't know why people would use it on him. Wasting a turn that could be used to set up would be a terrible idea on any set but the sub/dragon tail one, and that set is already doing fine without needing to compete with other gen 5 stall threats. Glare's arguably more useful anyways.
Well, even if Zygarde gets Stealth Rock, it is not a good user of it. ExtremeSpeed and Coil are blessings and used to exploited instead of Stealth Rock. The Coil set needs every move it can get.

But if I want to use Landorus-T as Stealth Rock setter and pivot, it would be more difficult to fit Zygarde due to the typing issue as one would possess two slow quad Ice weaknesses. I was using Ferrothorn as a Stealth Rock setter while I was using Zygarde, and it didn't like it as Stealth Rock setter due to its quad Fire weakness and lack of speed causing me to lose momentum. I wanted a Stealth Rock setter who was at least neutral to Earthquake and Lando-T just replaced Zygarde. Simply put, a Stealth Rock setter is a more valuable niche than a bulky sweeper. Also maybe Scarfed revenge killer (of Lucario with Earthquake and other targets) is a better niche than Bulky Revenge killer (never really did see the logic to using Garchomp as a Rocks setter except with a bulky Rocky Helmet set).
 

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Just to add on: Glare would be the proper move to use a bulky/defensive Zyg (bulky being bulky offensive...defferent from defensive Zyg). This isnt to say you cant run Glare on a DD or Coil set but it wouldnt work as well. Also Rocks would give it a wasted turn in comparison to other Hazard users, many of which would infact do it better (Mamo, T-tar, Skarm, even Chomp).
I concur, Zygarde can either be (Bulky) offensive, defensive, or a parashuffler. Hazard laying and support are generally outclassed by other Pokemon if it had access to such moves.
 

aVocado

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I highly doubt your opponent will let you get 4 Dragon Dances before hitting you with an Ice or Dragon move. Earthquake and Stone Edge give the best coverage and Outrage is not very reliable with Fairies, Steels, and Confusion. Still, it's a decent set and definitely has the benefit of taking a Burn while boosting up. I can see this set being useful setting up against Rotom-W and even Entei (but CB Sacred Fire and burn damage racks up).
Never seen ChestoRest Kingdra working before? Yes it does have less weaknesses (only weak to Dragon) and lacks a quad weakness to Ice, but Zygarde has a lot more raw bulk and can survive neutral attacks all day. It needs support in the fact that you have to fet rid of Pokemon that might carry an Ice move, and get rid of Dragons before Zygarde can come in and do its work. I have to test this someday.
 
Simply put, a Stealth Rock setter is a more valuable niche than a bulky sweeper.
I was going to put a Jesse Pinkman reaction image like I have this whole thread but I couldn't think of one.

This isn't true, unfortunately. You do not NEED Stealth Rock and certain teams call for certain Pokemon. There is no real "Value" as the synergy of the team is dependent on how well each spec'd pokemon works together.

Tanks work well in some situations
Fragile Glass Cannons work well in others.
Stealth Rock Setters have their own place
*Insert other spec here* is useful where they can be either.

I don't know what your team is but if Zygarde doesn't fit, then he doesn't fit. No big deal. If you really want to use Zygarde, find something that works together with him. I've been running him Teamed up with highly underrated pokemon and been able to get usually one or two boosts off.
 
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