Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

[Avira]

likely gonna be 8 pkmn + tera on the survey btw

Let's play the guess the Pokemon that will be on the survey game.

My guesses are based on Finchinator and other OU Council members' posts recently.

Gholdengo
Gouging Fire
Kingambit
Kyurem
Ogerpon-Wellspring
Raging Bolt
Roaring Moon
Volcarona

If Volcarona is not one of the 8, I see it being Walking Wake instead, but I think it will be Volcarona.

If I were to make a guess, I'd say Gouging Fire is the only Pokemon right now that has the community support for a ban (the 60%+1 vote margin) by regular suspect test voters, so I hope Gouging Fire is the mon that is the next suspect target as I believe the rest will end up with DNB verdicts.

 

[Heatranator]

I think one thing that helped my growth as a player in OU was a challenge. Ampharos for OU was just that. It changed the way I had to play. I had to get better at prediction and turn management. And I got Ampharos to 1400, so I’d say mission accomplished. So if you want to get better, maybe try Dugtrio for OU or something…….

I may be a perennial 1300s player, but at the very least I can say I know how to build teams for shit mons. It helped me identify how to play around the opponent's team and my team.
When I create an actual team, I get close to 1500s, so I know I'm able to do decent.

 

[Magcargo]

Let's play the guess the Pokemon that will be on the survey game.

My guesses are based on Finchinator and other OU Council members' posts recently.

Gholdengo
Gouging Fire
Kingambit
Kyurem
Ogerpon-Wellspring
Raging Bolt
Roaring Moon
Volcarona

If Volcarona is not one of the 8, I see it being Walking Wake instead, but I think it will be Volcarona.

If I were to make a guess, I'd say Gouging Fire is the only Pokemon right now that has the community support for a ban (the 60%+1 vote margin) by the qualified pool of survey takers, so I hope Gouging Fire is the mon that is the next suspect target as I believe the rest will end up with DNB verdicts.

I am sensing Gouging will end up with Bloodmoon numbers if a suspect were to happen. I am hoping it will just get quickbanned.

I could see Woger, Raging Bolt, and Roaring Moon ending up somewhere between 60% and 70% in terms of ban / dnb ratios.

I don't think Gholdengo will be on the survey this time around. Most top players I've talked to agree the mon has fallen off a fair deal in the current meta due to losing to even more OP Pokemon like Gouging Fire. I could see Volcarona being on the survey over Gholdengo since more people find that Pokemon to be problematic (at least based on the people I talked to).

 

[Avira]

I am sensing Gouging will end up with Bloodmoon numbers if a suspect were to happen. I am hoping it will just get quickbanned.

I could see Woger, Raging Bolt, and Roaring Moon ending up somewhere between 60% and 70% in terms of ban / dnb ratios.

I don't think Gholdengo will be on the survey this time around. Most top players I've talked to agree the mon has fallen off a fair deal in the current meta due to losing to even more OP Pokemon like Gouging Fire. I could see Volcarona being on the survey over Gholdengo since more people find that Pokemon to be problematic (at least based on the people I talked to).

I don't think Gouging Fire will get Bloodmoon numbers. A 90+% Ban/Do Not Ban ratio is very rare for OU, and I don't believe the community hates Gouging Fire THAT much. I can see anywhere between a 65-85% Ban/Do Not Ban ratio for Gouging Fire. Other mons such as Raging Bolt, Roaring Moon, and Ogerpon-Wellspring may have more support for a ban later, but I don't think we're quite there yet.

 

[Akalli]

why do people always try to fluff up the number of answers by just putting shit like this in, if the tier was actually deep enough that just throwing a few good mons together covered most of the tier, then we wouldn't be complaining

I feel like with Roaring Moon it’s quite hard to get a dragon dance up and not end up in these priorities range, their presence legitimately bother Roaring Moon so while I agree with the « doing 40% then dying shouldn’t be the norm for a check » take I feel like with priorities it isn’t as disingenuous as it seems at first glance. For the record I don’t agree with Mimi’s posts at all and there is a lot to unpack but this felt alright to me.

On another note, Gouging Fire should be the next suspect test (should was a quickban so don’t int on the survey) without any doubts. The offensive sets are good but I would argue not game breaking while still being very obnoxious, the defensive set is the one pushing it over the top for me, I’ll keep my thoughts for the suspect thread but judging from what I’ve read over the past few days the consensus seems to be on Gouging so that’s good at least.

Then from there you can argue whichever broken is next, but I personally wish that we get rid of Wellspring, also won’t get into it too much but yes it is broken and there is 0 defensive counterplay (anyone saying skarmory or even worse tornadus is hilarious) if hazards, no item (it almost has free life orb btw so stop saying no item) and the speed don’t make it broken then let’s unban Hearthflame! Its easier to revenge kill at least yes, but it can still boost speed so still has insane cleaner potential even against offense.

 

[YubelVT]

Making one mistake shouldn't mean "lol, I lost the game". If you have to play extremely carefully around moon to that point, then that is not healthy. You also say "don't give it free turns" when that is the easiest thing for moon to do because it threatens a lot of tier staples. Ghold, tusk, glowking all are threatened by it. Many others can not do a lot of damage to it, so let's extend that list to include Gliscor, Rillaboom and Ting-Lu. There are most likely others I am missing, but the point is that the free turns it gets are easy to attain. Then, if you are having to sacrifice a slower mon all the time against it, that still isn't healthy, because you should be able to check a mon without sacking something.

Resisting my urge to spew gen 7 OU apologia once more but yeah you're right. In most metagames, one (1) mistake, outside of the very late game, should not be costing you the game. Gen 7 OU is different but I'm not getting into it again. That metagame is good and fun, you all are just cowards.

Then from there you can argue whichever broken is next, but I personally wish that we get rid of Wellspring, also won’t get into it too much but yes it is broken and there is 0 defensive counterplay (anyone saying skarmory or even worse tornadus is hilarious) if hazards, no item (it almost has free life orb btw so stop saying no item) and the speed don’t make it broken then let’s unban Hearthflame! Its easier to revenge kill at least yes, but it can still boost speed so still has insane cleaner potential even against offense.

How to defeat waterpon while also not completely wasting a team slot:

 

[arnimacarni]

So megas are back huh? I mean these won't be playable in Gen9 but hey Gen10 is looking extra HO today hahah

 

[Da Pizza Man]

So megas are back huh? I mean these won't be playable in Gen9 but hey Gen10 is looking extra HO today hahah

There's absolute nothing to suggest that they are coming back permanently. Given Gamefreak's track record of cycling through new gimmicks each gen, it's probably just making a return for the new Legends game and then be put back on the shelf.

 

[YubelVT]

There's absolute nothing to suggest that they are coming back permanently. Given Gamefreak's track record of cycling through new gimmicks each gen, it's probably just making a return for the new Legends game and then be put back on the shelf.

I mean they brought hisuian formes into gen 9 so there is precedent for a legends game coming out, the new stuff not coming into the gen the legends game is released in, and then the new stuff coming into the next gen. I'm not saying it'll definitely totally happen but there's a good chance. I want z-moves back tho ubers is fucked rn and ultra necrozma would fix it I think

 

[JunkoAJ]

There's absolute nothing to suggest that they are coming back permanently. Given Gamefreak's track record of cycling through new gimmicks each gen, it's probably just making a return for the new Legends game and then be put back on the shelf.

We also don't know if Legends Z-A will be the new main game because Legends Arceus wasn't, so we just have to wait until the game is out

 

[awyp]

Yeah I'll 2nd what Akalli is saying, lets move quickly and not waste weeks on a suspect test for something that shouldn't be in the tier (Gouging Fire). Lets just give this thing a 5 on the radar and then we can start having more legitimate questions about things like Raging Bolt / Roaring Moon (things that deserve a suspect test). It's outlined multiple times on this thread if you just keyword search 'Gouging Fire' on what makes this mon ridiculous.

I promise you if Gouging Fire gets suspect tested it's getting straight banned.

The defensive sets (which are bulky as shit depending on how you EV it) can really abuse anything that doesn't have taunt / whirlwind when combined with tera ghost / fairy / poison in general can be tough to stop if you're team is not prepped for it (hence how much pressure it puts on builder and makes you just to fight broken with broken)

 

[YubelVT]

Yeah I'll 2nd what Akalli is saying, lets move quickly and not waste weeks on a suspect test for something that shouldn't be in the tier (Gouging Fire). Lets just give this thing a 5 on the radar and then we can start having more legitimate questions about things like Raging Bolt / Roaring Moon (things that deserve a suspect test). It's outlined multiple times on this thread if you just keyword search 'Gouging Fire' on what makes this mon ridiculous.

I promise you if Gouging Fire gets suspect tested it's getting straight banned.

The defensive sets (which are bulky as shit depending on how you EV it) can really abuse anything that doesn't have taunt / whirlwind when combined with tera ghost / fairy / poison in general can be tough to stop if you're team is not prepped for it (hence how much pressure it puts on builder and makes you just to fight broken with broken)

For a laugh, let's give everything on the survey a 5. Even tera. Nuke the tier. See what happens! Will it fix OU? Who knows!

 

[Shadow Crystal]

I think one thing that helped my growth as a player in OU was a challenge. Ampharos for OU was just that. It changed the way I had to play. I had to get better at prediction and turn management. And I got Ampharos to 1400, so I’d say mission accomplished. So if you want to get better, maybe try Dugtrio for OU or something…….

Yeah. Hypnosis Iron val during teal mask also required predicting rightly. I managed 1680s with that. It was before the hypnosis val became a thing. I ran a cm hypno psyshock moonblast set. I was 1700 actually but a shitty cinderace + cramorant team screwed me over. Still is arounf 1600 and helped me in playing. I understand what ur trying to say.

Though don't run cramorant though its awful to play against

 

[pika pal]

I don't think Gholdengo will be on the survey this time around. Most top players I've talked to agree the mon has fallen off a fair deal in the current meta due to losing to even more OP Pokemon like Gouging Fire. I could see Volcarona being on the survey over Gholdengo since more people find that Pokemon to be problematic (at least based on the people I talked to).

I disagree with this particular point because Gholdengo still remains pretty unpopular with the playerbase, especially given it mostly avoided a Suspect due to DLC2's looming rather than any less contention with its playstyle. I also expect people will want eyes kept on Gholdengo because a lot of the Suspect subjects are things that people are expecting to go (like Gouging Fire and Roaring Moon) and whose increased prominence were major factors in it falling off (Archaludon being another example). If/when those guys go Gholdengo is going to see a resurgence, especially with Kyurem staying since Balloon Dengo is a pretty strong Check in a tier heavily lacking answers to it sticking around

 

[Bold School]

Since Tera is going to be on the survey, I will hit on it again. Now I have believed Tera was problematic since the start. But it's easy enough for folks to ignore someone like me. So allow me to bring up the opinion of a very strong player: Pinkacross.

Now during one of my own past discussions on here, a very important point that was brought up was how defensive Tera is actually helpful to teambuilding because it allows you to check more of the threats in the tier. I still would say that Tera constrains teambuilding more than it helps it. I would also point out that defensive Tera can allow many of the insane threats the one turn grace they need to sweep the tier, further boosting the strain even defensive Tera puts on the metagame. So if defensive Tera is good for both offense and defense, but offensive Tera is only good for offense, that suggests Tera as a whole balances out more towards offense.

Another problem with relying on defensive Tera too much to check threats is you only get one per game. So you check one thing with it and you cannot check something else you many need Tera for in the same game. And then you also cannot use it offensively because you were forced to use it defensively.

Anyways, I'm obviously voting against Tera on the survey for being unhealthy to the tier. I still suspect that most of you won't and that's fine. I just hope people take this into account when voting, regardless of whatever decision you make.

 

[RaikouLover]

Now during one of my own past discussions on here, a very important point that was brought up was how defensive Tera is actually helpful to teambuilding because it allows you to check more of the threats in the tier. I still would say that Tera constrains teambuilding more than it helps it. I would also point out that defensive Tera can allow many of the insane threats the one turn grace they need to sweep the tier,

And I will add more context- defensive Tera allows more Pokémon to be tolerated in the tier that ought to be banned. If the best way to check a threatening Pokémon is through Tera, that mon is likely too strong to begin with.

Tera has made a top tier list of offensive threats that are so much better than other Pokémon, that it has made more diverse and creative choices completely unviable competitively.

 

[Magcargo]

And I will add more context- defensive Tera allows more Pokémon to be tolerated in the tier that ought to be banned. If the best way to check a threatening Pokémon is through Tera, that mon is likely too strong to begin with.

Tera has made a top tier list of offensive threats that are so much better than other Pokémon, that it has made more diverse and creative choices completely unviable competitively.

I agree creative choices do feel less viable right now. However, that feels moreso due to infinite hazard spam forcing most of these teams with creative mons to run either Great Tusk + Hatterene or Great Tusk + Corv for hazard control. This inherently leads to samey structures or teams with massive defensive holes, as it is very difficult to deal with hazard spam on top of other shit like Raging Bolt, Gouging Fire, etc. IMO this is especially constricting towards bulkier structures.

I am hoping this is addressed in someway, ideally by just banning Spikes since from my (limited) knowledge, they are a massive problem across all Gen 9 tiers due to hazard control being so piss poor.

 

[RaikouLover]

I agree creative choices do feel less viable right now. However, that feels moreso due to infinite hazard spam forcing most of these teams with creative mons to run either Great Tusk + Hatterene or Great Tusk + Corv for hazard control. This inherently leads to samey structures or teams with massive defensive holes, as it is very difficult to deal with hazard spam on top of other shit like Raging Bolt, Gouging Fire, etc. IMO this is especially constricting towards bulkier structures.

I am hoping this is addressed in someway, ideally by just banning Spikes since from my (limited) knowledge, they are a massive problem across all Gen 9 tiers due to hazard control being so piss poor.

Yes hazards are another stain on this metagame. However, they are such a core part of competitive mons I don’t think banning spikes is the answer. For one it’s highly preferential to ban one hazard and not all (why spikes instead of stealth rocks, toxic spikes, ceaseless edge, stone axe, glimmora, etc?). For two, a huge problem with hazards is Gholdengo. Corviknight and Mandibuzz can Defog freely on Spikers if string cheese gets the axe. Healthy Defog counterplay used to be Contrary and Defiant, not flat out blocking it!

 

[ianlazerbeem]

likely gonna be 8 pkmn + tera on the survey btw

Obviously Gouging Fire, Raging Bolt, Ogerpon-Wellspring, probably Gholdengo, then the balanced stuff, Volcarona, Roaring Moon, and Kingambit... I wonder who #8 is. Kyurem probably wouldn't be there again so soon, certainly we should be done putting Midoxys-Speed on the surveys... honestly I think the next most broken in the tier after those 7 and excluding Kyurem would probably be Dragonite, which I've heard almost no buzz about. Rillacheap is tamer now thanks to several Pokémon that will probably be on the survey, and Polteageist alone certainly wouldn't get a suspect. I guess it could be Enamorus or Serp ig? Or maybe the fraud Iron Boulder? Hmmm

 

[Avira]

I believe Kyurem is far more likely to be on the survey than Dragonite is. I have not thought Dragonite to be radar-worthy at any point in the generation.

 

[awyp]

Obviously Gouging Fire, Raging Bolt, Ogerpon-Wellspring, probably Gholdengo, then the balanced stuff, Volcarona, Roaring Moon, and Kingambit... I wonder who #8 is. Kyurem probably wouldn't be there again so soon, certainly we should be done putting Midoxys-Speed on the surveys... honestly I think the next most broken in the tier after those 7 and excluding Kyurem would probably be Dragonite, which I've heard almost no buzz about. Rillacheap is tamer now thanks to several Pokémon that will probably be on the survey, and Polteageist alone certainly wouldn't get a suspect. I guess it could be Enamorus or Serp ig? Or maybe the fraud Iron Boulder? Hmmm

1. Gouging Fire
2. Raging Bolt
3. Roaring Moon
4. Kingambit
5. Volcarona
6. Gliscor
7. Gholdengo
8. Ogerpon-Wellspring

is my guess

edit: kyurem SHOULD be 9

 

[Finchinator]

I lied it’s 9 Pokemon; I just can’t count

 

[Avira]

Since I don't think Gliscor will be on the survey, I predict that Walking Wake is the last mon on the survey. I remember talk about Walking Wake being a strong but lesser priority like Ogerpon-Wellspring, so it would make sense if it is on the survey.

 

[Finchinator]

no glisc, no wake, no kyu (this time)

 

[Anchor9]

Hopefully Zamazenta is getting looked at. I can’t stand how fast something that bulky is. And not because I think it’s broken, I just feel the council just will put Deoxys-S there just because.