skeledirge and heatran counter the breaking swipe sets and if you're running EP then landorus-T soft checks it as well
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
skeledirge and heatran counter the breaking swipe sets and if you're running EP then landorus-T soft checks it as well
Against the Breaking Swipe set specifically, Garganacl does well unless it is Covert Cloak. Toxic mon + Skeledirge also makes it very difficult to make any progress.
Enamorus @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Cute Charm
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Iron Defense
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Earth Power
Idk man, just use id enamorus.
72 Atk Gouging Fire Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Enamorus: 208-246 (59 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
72 Atk Gouging Fire Flare Blitz vs. +2 252 HP / 0 Def Enamorus: 105-124 (29.8 - 35.2%) -- 21% chance to 3HKO
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a good way, and the method i use, to catch up on the meta is to check out replays from recent or active tournaments.
try looking at the ost threads for replays, along with the spl replay thread.
oh okay then, my bad.
I guess it is going to be archaludon diet-edition.
that thing was nearly unkillable.
Why wouldn’t you just use Enamorus-Therian in this case? You know, its dedicated Tank form?
Primarina @ Leftovers
Ability: Liquid Voice
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 244 Def / 8 SpD / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic Noise
- Draining Kiss
- Haze
- Calm Mind
Okay, but for real this time, this set counters bulky gouging HARD. At +2, it does 44% max, while you haze off the boosts. Then you precede to calm mind up and psychic noise to stop recovery, while getting your own with draining kiss. Primarina is great in this meta and can fit on multiple team structures.
/sarcasm
Well... the entire crux of this set is trick. Sets like these work Because they aren't meta. I won a few games last night in the mid 1600s with it. Ill post a replay next time i use it.
I haven't been playing much, so take it with a grain of salt, but my first instinct is: Unaware+Toxic is a death sentence. Let's use my man Quag as reference:
72 Atk Gouging Fire Breaking Swipe vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 63-75 (15.9 - 19%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery
72 Atk Gouging Fire Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire in Sun: 93-111 (23.6 - 28.1%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
72 Atk Gouging Fire Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire in Sun: 93-111 (23.6 - 28.1%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
The issue being sun-banded sets are really strong and they may just break through anyway if you end up in that match-up. Fuckin crazy stuff
This seems to work until they tera poison and pp stall you. Which is the point of the whole set actually.
It's a parody of the eviolite Duraludon copypasta.
The set is using Trick to give the opponent the Black Sludge.
Tatsugiri Enjoyer (Dondozo) (F) @ Rocky Helmet
Gouging Fire actually has to touch you at some point. If you use Helmet instead of Boots, he will have to get passive damage, unless it has Leftovers (which you can previously knock, since bulky Gouging Fire is not that immediately threatening), you win 100% of the time.
Against breaking swipe/flare blitz gouging fire, heatran cooks it with earth power even if they tera poison. Against breaking swipe/earthquake it can't touch enamorus. Neither of these pokemon do well into offensive variants though.
Dondozo beats 100% of gouging fire sets if you run curse, water move, body press, rest. It's so fat I've never felt like it needed sleep talk.
Dondozo is definitely its best check but it needs to run physical defense specifically to beat attack Protosynthesis Banded sets with sun support:
252 Atk Choice Band Protosynthesis Gouging Fire Raging Fury vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Dondozo in Sun: 233-274 (46.2 - 54.3%) -- 57.4% chance to 2HKO
(This is Jolly; Adamant is a guaranteed 2HKO without chip).
there are a few caveats here. First of all this calc is common knowledge, so if sun is up and gouging gets an attack boost, i know its not in my best interest to hard switch. secondly, why would i rely on spdef dozo to counter it? i always run max Def. if i need a spdef unaware pokemon im using clodsire. max defense dozo is a fantastic win condition once special attackers are removed, maybe my brain is too small to understand why people would use it specially defensive
It’s gonna be hard to do “We didn’t start the fire“, as NDM already did that for their gouging fire suspect. But Through the fire and the Flames suspect music gon be fire
252 SpA Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Dondozo: 153-180 (30.3 - 35.7%) -- 34% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Dondozo: 138-163 (27.3 - 32.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Dondozo in Grassy Terrain: 306-360 (60.7 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Dondozo: 356-420 (70.6 - 83.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Dondozo: 316-373 (62.6 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Dondozo can be bulky on the special side if you invest in it, while still being great at taking physical hits. It means you have a mon that can cover both sides of the spectrum decently well. Plus, you can boost your defense with curse, so that side can be uninvested.
I don't think you should use specially defensive dondozo, especially on stall teams, but I see the idea behind it to try and cover as much of the metagame as you can.
Chat, what are your thoughts on Synthesis Waterpon? I find it helps to alleviate the pressure that hazards put on it, and dropping SD isn't so bad considering your natural offensive power. Waterpon can force a switch, threatening Ivy Cudgel or whatever, and Synthesis, healing up for free. I had been running Superpower to hit Arch and guaranteed OHKO Moon, but after Arch's ban I do think Play Rough is better.
Ogerpon-Wellspring (F) @ Wellspring Mask
Ability: Water Absorb
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Ivy Cudgel
- Play Rough
- Power Whip
- Synthesis
Ogerpon-Wellspring (F) @ Wellspring Mask
Ability: Water Absorb
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Ivy Cudgel
- Play Rough
- Power Whip
- Synthesis
Cool set, though you will need to have hazards to chip down the opposing team + knock support to remove HDB. Could be better into bulkier teams.Chat, what are your thoughts on Synthesis Waterpon? I find it helps to alleviate the pressure that hazards put on it, and dropping SD isn't so bad considering your natural offensive power. Waterpon can force a switch, threatening Ivy Cudgel or whatever, and Synthesis, healing up for free. I had been running Superpower to hit Arch and guaranteed OHKO Moon, but after Arch's ban I do think Play Rough is better.
Ogerpon-Wellspring (F) @ Wellspring Mask
Ability: Water Absorb
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Ivy Cudgel
- Play Rough
- Power Whip
- Synthesis
I've been running grassy glide waterpon on a grassy terrain team, and it screws over opposing waterpon's who think they can try to speed tie, while also making faster mons much worse against it.
On a gimmick set I've used a sunny day + solar blade + synthesis set. Very cool idea, but it wasn't the best. Very funny though.
I feel like if you're dead set on incorporating recovery into Woger's moveset, you may as well just sacrifice Power Whip for Horn Leech, a less powerful but more accurate move of the same type. Woger feels like it can want Knock Off, SD, Encore, Play Rough, Superpower But Not As Much Anymore, Zen Headbutt similarly, etc
Those calcs sort of undermine your own point though. Dozo can never take on wake because it ignores draco drops. Valiant makes it a sitting duck with encore. You aren't dealing much damage to kyurem with uninvested body press while it still cleanly 2hkos you. That rillaboom calc means that you're 2hkod even if you're full and curse on it. Meanwhile if you are max defense you at least have a chance.
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo in Grassy Terrain: 248-294 (49.2 - 58.3%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
You are better into Gholdengo but you don't do any damage back to it and if it has recover or trick you're screwed.
And finally this:
0+ Def Dondozo Body Press vs. 100 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 248-292 (67.7 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Dondozo: 229-270 (45.4 - 53.5%) -- 38.7% chance to 2HKO
Even the slightest bit of chip damage means you're losing to gambit without tera dark in the endgame which is a depressing reality
We have all seen this meme calc. Dozo needs to run physdef to perform well in OU for a lot reasons, SpDef Dozo is barely real, and they all run curse now to deal with several of the potent breakers in the tier. Gouging is a pretty fucked up mon for a lot of reasons but honestly this set specifically is not very well optimized for non-Dondozo matchups and is also at the end of the day pretty comparable to tusk and roaring moon running similar sets
overall this calc has been seen by literally everyone and is not particularly relevant to metagame discussion
I know, it was moreso just what people might be thinking. I forgor that you ignore the special drops because of unaware, which is cool counterplay. I'm guessing its moreso just so you don't instantly die to every special hit. Again, don't recommend it, but there is a reason for it being created. It's worse than every other dozo set, as curse is needed in this meta to combat physical attackers. I would absolutely stick to the physical defense sets, especially if you are using stall as like, just use blissey. Even though blissey doesn't have unaware, you tank every special move bar hoopa-U specs focus blast, and that is such as specific set that isn't even too good.
Chat, what are your thoughts on Synthesis Waterpon? I find it helps to alleviate the pressure that hazards put on it, and dropping SD isn't so bad considering your natural offensive power. Waterpon can force a switch, threatening Ivy Cudgel or whatever, and Synthesis, healing up for free. I had been running Superpower to hit Arch and guaranteed OHKO Moon, but after Arch's ban I do think Play Rough is better.
Ogerpon-Wellspring (F) @ Wellspring Mask
Ability: Water Absorb
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Ivy Cudgel
- Play Rough
- Power Whip
- Synthesis
I have considered this type of set before, but not these moves in specific. I was thinking more of an Ivy Cudgel + Knock + Synthesis as your standard moves, and then anything ranging from taunt to spikes to encore to another attacking move like play rough or horn leech (I hate power whip). Taunt is what I wanted to test because it could be really annoying against defensive teams, especially with knock off. I think it's very underexplored though, and maybe could be really strong or broken, even. Sort of reminds me of utility Kartana with synthesis defog or something alone those lines.
I would say that yeah, physically defensive Dondozo is best, but spdef Dozo is actually really underrated at the moment. It beats non-giga drain Volcarona, psyshock Gholdengo if you can avoid some spdef drops (this is the big reason why I have been using spdef Dozo lately), and some Iron Valiant sets lacking thunderbolt, although it does get sketchy and I only do it in a pinch. Aside from that, it's still pretty good at beating some physicals, such as Dragonite lacking encore, select Gouging Fire sets, bulk up Tusk, Iron "Fraud" Boulder, Weavile if you can eat the knock off, and Zamazenta. It can also 1v1 Kingambit if you can get the sequencing right, but you'd need a backup answer.
Personally, I think an underrated path, especially for stall, is to use Dondozo with spdef and use a flame body wisp mon like Talonflame, Moltres, or Volcarona. Even if Kingambit teras into a fire type, it becomes weak to hazards and you can toxic it with Gliscor, as well as the fact that Dondozo can 1v1 in a pinch. Basically, this approach tries to compress as much as possible to try and justify dropping Clodsire, so you get one whole slot to do whatever patching you want. You can add another knock absorber, a copium answer to Waterpon, or even a really funny progress forcer like knock synthesis Serperior. I like trying to justify this approach by slotting in Amoonguss and using it as the main regenerator for the team, then supporting the Roaring Moon matchup with sticky barb Clefable.
Not as popular, yes, but I still think it's quite underrated and has some really cool options going this path in terms of compression that it offers.
But yeah I agree, the Gouging Fire vs Dondozo in sun calc is sorta a meme at this point, it doesn't happen that much and it still has counterplay to it on stall even if it trucks Dondozo (it literally kills itself to hazards and recoil if it clicks flare blitz, gets stalled by wish tect Mola a little, 1v1'd by phys def curse Dondozo, you will lose to sun anyways as stall if you don't make the right plays to actually force progress and opt to play as a passive sitting duck instead). Not to say that I think it's balanced, rather that the problematic set isn't the band set in my opinion, but the dragon dance ones.