Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

[viivian]

out of curiosity has anyone ever used latias outside of stored power + CM sets on HO? it sounds fun as a scarfer at least w/ healing wish to facilitate kingambit, not to mention it can outspeed stuff like +1 walking wake unlike other scarfers like enamorus

 

[Finchinator]

out of curiosity has anyone ever used latias outside of stored power + CM sets on HO? it sounds fun as a scarfer at least w/ healing wish to facilitate kingambit, not to mention it can outspeed stuff like +1 walking wake unlike other scarfers like enamorus

There were a few ladder HOs that tried it, but locking into any actual attack ever always led to free setup opportunities for too many things sadly due to weaknesses and common resistances. In addition, it still is slower than Moon, Valiant, Boulder, etc.

Enamorus works — and even then: you want it with more speed or priority — because Moonblast is more spammable with Volc, Ghold, and Glim (frequently a lead) as the main resists on offense. Ghold isn’t threatening to sweep HO and balloon being broken isn’t bad, Glim is usually chipped or dead, and Volc you can at least scout HP investment and react accordingly against.

 

[NotDaProGamer]

I'm having a hard time testing gimmicks lately with actually good players on Showdown! so wondering if anybody has found some 'sleeper mons' that are good, but in a lower tier?

 

[Anchor9]

I'm having a hard time testing gimmicks lately with actually good players on Showdown! so wondering if anybody has found some 'sleeper mons' that are good, but in a lower tier?

Ampharos.

 

[Divine Retribution]

I'm having a hard time testing gimmicks lately with actually good players on Showdown! so wondering if anybody has found some 'sleeper mons' that are good, but in a lower tier?

Hisuian Goodra has been putting in loads of work for me recently, mostly Specs and Counter + Shuca. Fits in great on bulky offense, eats loads of hits and is surprisingly hard to switch into.

 

[Heatranator]

I'm having a hard time testing gimmicks lately with actually good players on Showdown! so wondering if anybody has found some 'sleeper mons' that are good, but in a lower tier?

I've used Araquanid (choice band, no sticky web shenanigans), the legendary beasts, Noivern, Avalugg, Ludicolo, Dachsbun, Hitmonchan, Hitmontop, Garticuno, Registeel, Magnezone and Quick attack Terrakion this gen, and most of them have been good due to tera.
And these are just the ones I remember using, though for some I do think I am coping.

 

[Vaporwavvve]

Does anyone have any tips for getting reqs? I have been top 250 on the ladder for a while now but no matter what I do I can’t get them. I always lose early ladder. FWIW I struggle against HO and very gimmicky teams (which Tera was only made worse).

 

[MegaScizor32]

Does anyone have any tips for getting reqs? I have been top 250 on the ladder for a while now but no matter what I do I can’t get them. I always lose early ladder. FWIW I struggle against HO and very gimmicky teams (which Tera was only made worse).

no bs SRN made a really great post on how to get reqs. Following his guide helped me get reqs.

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...archaludon-is-now-banned.3732644/post-9959782

Also another tip that some other user whose name I forgot gave some really good advice. If you lose make sure to take some time (5-10 mins) to reflect and make sure you dont tilt. Playing on tilt will deeply worsen your performance.

 

[RaikouLover]

A Teraless suspect ladder would be a mess and a waste of time.

While I agree a teraless ladder chances of happening are between infinitesimal and nil, what about the idea is a mess and waste of time?

If I had a dollar for every time someone on this thread discussed tera, I would have enough money to be able to create my own website and battle simulator for Pokemon battles and would be able to ban talk about tera on there.

Tera is a highly controversial mechanic that has polarized the Gen. It is still showing up on surveys because about half the player base has some sort of issue with it. Why the need to suppress discussion?

Why is it people want to suspect gholdengo, in regards to hazards, instead of some of the setters themselves? Like you can say they're not good, but that's blatantly false as their job is to set hazards, not necessarily win games. Since gliscor has been banned for its effectiveness I don't see why other mons aren't looked at more. Samu-H, Deoxys-S, Gliscor(got some of the highest mentions from the survey), Ting-lu(I remember there was some discussion on it being too good earlier in the gen,). We've got a lot of good setters, and while they don't dominate games, they have a noticeable impact on the metagame. This isn't a call to action, it's more for discussion and seeing some thoughts about why they're considered less impactful than gholdengo, who loses more from failing a block, when they can often just reset spikes.

I think Gholdengo stonewalling both Rapid Spin and Defog is unhealthy. Defiant and Competitive are more healthy because they are deterrence instead of blocking. We don’t have a hazard problem outside of Gholdengo. Corviknight and Mandbuzz easily Defog the Spikers. Corviknight in particular just sits on Gliscor all game.

 

[FayaWizard]

While I agree a teraless ladder chances of happening are between infinitesimal and nil, what about the idea is a mess and waste of time?

If you bothered to actually read my post instead of the first line and nothing else, you would’ve seen it, but since you can’t be bothered here you go.

A Teraless suspect ladder would require weeks to stabilize to a degree where Tera’s influence can be measured, and in which time OU cannot take any other tiering action. Furthermore, there is a likely chance that some mons will emerge as broken in the new Teraless ladder, and thus require bans: except you can’t, because those mons are not in question for the suspect, just Tera. So do you let this clearly unbalanced metagame continue? Can you really get an accurate gauge of Tera in such a meta?

As for a Teraless OM, that’s not what an OM is for. You can’t just make a new tier because you’re upset that a suspect didn’t go your way, just for a tier that’ll still look pretty similar to OU. Great Tusk will still be top of the usage charts whether or not it can turn into a Water type.

 

[RaikouLover]

As for a Teraless OM, that’s not what an OM is for. You can’t just make a new tier because you’re upset that a suspect didn’t go your way, just for a tier that’ll still look pretty similar to OU. Great Tusk will still be top of the usage charts whether or not it can turn into a Water type.

I’m always willing to re-iterate and relitigate that the 59% majority lost to a 41% minority. And we’ve been battling in an unbalanced tier ever since. The suggestion as I understand it is analogous to the late OU blitz ladder; it would be unofficial and follow the ban list of regular OU ladder. This alternate gameplay speculation rather than meta tiering.

Yes, Tera does affect which mons were broken and are currently suspect worthy. I think almost all of the banned mons are indeed broken regardless of Tera. However, things like Kingambit, Raging Bolt, and Volcarona are almost assuredly not broken without their cheese button.

 

[Avira]

Yes, Tera does affect which mons were broken and are currently suspect worthy. I think almost all of the banned mons are indeed broken regardless of Tera. However, things like Kingambit, Raging Bolt, and Volcarona are almost assuredly not broken without their cheese button.

Don't forget Espathra and Regieleki as well. And the main reason Ursaluna-Bloodmoon was close to uncheckable was 'cause of Tera. Without Tera, it has a very abusable defensive typing as well as special bulk that is only okay when unboosted, so there are a lot of interactions that are not easily known with theorycrafting with Tera banned even if Ursaluna-Bloodmoon would still be broken. And personally, I don't find Volcarona broken even with Tera legal, so without Tera, it would absolutely be balanced beyond a shadow of a doubt. I'm still undecided on Raging Bolt though, which I am slightly leaning towards not broken even with Tera.

 

[Heatranator]

Don't forget Espathra and Regieleki as well. And the main reason Ursaluna-Bloodmoon was close to uncheckable was 'cause of Tera. Without Tera, it has a very abusable defensive typing as well as special bulk that is only okay when unboosted. And personally, I don't find Volcarona broken even with Tera legal. I'm still undecided on Raging Bolt though.

Ah yes, the mon that has an ability that is better scrappy, which means its stab combo is only resisted by a few mons, with reliable recovery and a way to boost its special bulk meaning that even on that side it can be difficult to ko once it gets one boost up.
And also a normal stab move that is 140bp and the only drawback is that you can't spam it twice in a row, which is perfectly reasonable.
Definetely will be balanced and tera wasn't just a shit cherry on the shit sandwich that was Ursaluna Bloodmoon.

 

[RaikouLover]

Don't forget Espathra and Regieleki as well. And the main reason Ursaluna-Bloodmoon was close to uncheckable was 'cause of Tera. Without Tera, it has a very abusable defensive typing as well as special bulk that is only okay when unboosted, so there are a lot of interactions that are not easily known with theorycrafting with Tera banned even if Ursaluna-Bloodmoon would still be broken. And personally, I don't find Volcarona broken even with Tera legal, so without Tera, it would absolutely be balanced beyond a shadow of a doubt. I'm still undecided on Raging Bolt though, which I am slightly leaning towards not broken even with Tera.

Fair. Gen 9 and Tera I believe has changed the way I look at tiering. In the past, banworthy pokemon were “broken.” Limited or onerous counterplay existed. They just beat you down. Huge unfair advantages.

Re: Raging Bolt, Volcarona, and Kingambit I don’t think any of these mons are “broken” by previous standards. However, the cheese button introduces the game state to where counterplay to Dragonrona, Fairyrona, Grassrona, Groundrona, and Waterona can all be different. Thus, losses to Volcarona are not necessarily because of player skill or Volcarona’s invincibility. They are because you drew the wrong matchup straw. Not “broken” but in my opinion unhealthy and negative for gameplay.

 

[FayaWizard]

I’m always willing to re-iterate and relitigate that the 59% majority lost to a 41% minority. And we’ve been battling in an unbalanced tier ever since. The suggestion as I understand it is analogous to the late OU blitz ladder; it would be unofficial and follow the ban list of regular OU ladder. This alternate gameplay speculation rather than meta tiering.

Yes, Tera does affect which mons were broken and are currently suspect worthy. I think almost all of the banned mons are indeed broken regardless of Tera. However, things like Kingambit, Raging Bolt, and Volcarona are almost assuredly not broken without their cheese button.

Well unfortunately for you that 59% majority also consisted of the majority of said majority wanting ACTION on Tera, not a ban. And of those actions, a Tera ban was certainly not breaking 50%, so your "majority" really isn't a majority after all.

And using a suspect test over a year old seems pretty outdated, no? Why not use a much more reliable source, like say our recent survey, to gauge the thoughts of the current playerbase? I wonder what they have to say?

Hm. Strangely, I think that 28% is not, in fact, a majority.

Once again, you can't make a new tier just because you're upset on how a suspect vote went. The playerbase decided we wanted to keep Tera, and so we shall, for better or worse, and shape tiering decisions accordingly.

 

[RaikouLover]

Well unfortunately for you that 59% majority also consisted of the majority of said majority wanting ACTION on Tera, not a ban. And of those actions, a Tera ban was certainly not breaking 50%, so your "majority" really isn't a majority after all.

And using a suspect test over a year old seems pretty outdated, no? Why not use a much more reliable source, like say our recent survey, to gauge the thoughts of the current playerbase? I wonder what they have to say?

View attachment 614691
Hm. Strangely, I think that 28% is not, in fact, a majority.

It’s not outright ban correct however it is also not inaction / no action which is what we’ve had in the year since and is the preference of only a minority of voters.

Once again, you can't make a new tier just because you're upset on how a suspect vote went. The playerbase decided we wanted to keep Tera, and so we shall, for better or worse, and shape tiering decisions accordingly.

I believe I said in my last response that the suggestion as understood is not a new tier. As an idea it is analogous to OU Blitz. Which was a heat implementation btw. Super fun to play when it existed.

 

[FayaWizard]

It’s not outright ban correct however it is also not inaction / no action which is what we’ve had in the year since and is the preference of only a minority of voters.

Hm, but what you're suggesting is a teraless ladder. Which is, in fact, a ban. Which is also, in fact, a preference of only a minority of voters a year ago, and is now an even smaller minority today.

 

[RaikouLover]

Hm, but what you're suggesting is a teraless ladder. Which is, in fact, a ban. Which is also, in fact, a preference of only a minority of voters a year ago, and is now an even smaller minority today.

No, it would just be an unofficial metagame. We have plenty of them. The real question is why the mere suggestion of such illicits such hostility. I played OU Blitz in both Gen 7 and Gen 8. It followed OU tiering and had an unofficial ladder. It was not the format for any official tournaments. What is the big deal about alternative option?

 

[FayaWizard]

No, it would just be an unofficial metagame. We have plenty of them. The real question is why the mere suggestion of such illicits such hostility. I played OU Blitz in both Gen 7 and Gen 8. It followed OU tiering and had an unofficial ladder. It was not the format for any official tournaments. What is the big deal about alternative option?

Because it has no reason to exist and goes directly against a suspect vote, as well as the wishes of the general playerbase. People don't want a ban on Tera, so I see no reason to implement a tier with one. I'm not a fan of Tera, but the push for a Teraless ladder is really frustrating to see when people are using it as a way to still get the results they wanted even though a suspect test didn't go their way. We didn't create an unofficial metagame for a OU without Kyurem, we didn't create an unofficial metagame for an OU with Chien Pao, and both of those would've had more support that a Teraless ladder. Want change? Push for a second Tera suspect and convince the people to vote ban.

 

[Bold School]

Because it has no reason to exist and goes directly against a suspect vote, as well as the wishes of the general playerbase. People don't want a ban on Tera, so I see no reason to implement a tier with one. I'm not a fan of Tera, but the push for a Teraless ladder is really frustrating to see when people are using it as a way to still get the results they wanted even though a suspect test didn't go their way.

Isn't it a bit disingenuous to say that this is only about pushback from last survey? You keep trying to paint this as a position of sore losers rather than acknowledge the fact that this isn't entirely new. Let's not pretend like a Tera-less ladder in some form hasn't been a suggestion or request for a long time now. There is a type of data you could collect that hasn't been available so far for the entire gen, not just since last survey.

The reasons why we didn't split OU into two separate ladders were absolutely valid. But an OM is different. Why should any OM exist by your criteria? But they do.

Furthermore, it has already been brought up that said data wouldn't wouldn't necesarrily even be anti-Tera. So the claim that it is just so anti-Tera people could get their way doesn't really add up. I don't think there are many, if any, folks actually thinking this way. But if they were, it would be incredibly misguided and not at all thought through. The whole narrative of it just being sore losers who are trying to manipulate the system feels like a massive group character assassination attempt. How would you take it if I said the resistance was just pro-Tera people who were afraid of what we might find?

We didn't create an unofficial metagame for a OU without Kyurem, we didn't create an unofficial metagame for an OU with Chien Pao, and both of those would've had more support that a Teraless ladder.

This has been covered on here before, but Tera is the generational mechanic. Not a pokemon. There are obvious differences.

And you keep talking about support. But maybe survey support would have been higher if this had been earlier in the gen when there was more engagement on the subject? The current meta is not even all that well liked, according the the most recent survey you keep citing. But what is the root cause or the optimal solution? There is some disagreement.

It seems most folks would prefer to ban what is seen as problem pokemon. Then Kyurem avoided a ban. And I'm personally fine with that, but it is still a massive threat. Now Gouging Fire may be picking up anti-ban momentum. So then how do you fix the meta nobody likes if you can't ban most of what is seen as problematic? I realize that is a big if, and I may be getting too ahead of myself here, but we could be heading that way. In that case, we would either need to find a new solution or just live with a meta most people didn't seem to like much. Popularity sure can be ironic.

 

[Magcargo]

I don't quite agree w/ all this. I find Gholdengo still incredibly easy to fit onto any teamstyle or archetype I can imagine. It has amazing set diversity. Other than lay hazards, it can do whatever you want it to.

I agree that having combo spin + defog blogger is less of a perk than it used to be, but I dont think that's a hit againt gholdengo in particular; it's more a reflection of fat boots stuff popping up. It's still a stellar complement for dragon and fairy types. I will say that it can be annoying doubling up on ground/dark/fire weakness when you use gholdengo, because you also want to use the other great pokemon on a team like kingambit, dragapult, or raging bolt. Thankfully, those things can tera too. The only thing I find it truly struggles with it fat gouging fire.

Here's a big pile of Gholdengo sets https://pokepast.es/2f359914a23b976b

I am finding the most success with defensive sets that can beat zama+moon+gambit w/ tera fairy. Dedicated stall breaking sets are good too. I want to try something like tera water + thunder, 4 attacks on rain. sounds spicy. NP tera blast + shadowball is secret OP, with any tera type!

I'm glad to see another player bring up Tera Blast + Shadow Ball! Really enjoyed using this set in DLC 1 to beat Heatran and Cinderace which were spammed quite a bit back then. I think Heatran usage has really fallen down, but its still a nice set for that mon + good into some other tough match-ups like Volcarona + Ting-Lu.

I think you make some good points. Covert Cloak Boldengo is likely good with all the ID Zama + Garg being spammed, espicially based on the few replays I've seen of it in action. With Arch gone, that Tera Blast Water + Thunder set also sounds quite appealing, esp since it provides rain with a crucial Dragon resistance.

 

[YubelVT]

out of curiosity has anyone ever used latias outside of stored power + CM sets on HO? it sounds fun as a scarfer at least w/ healing wish to facilitate kingambit, not to mention it can outspeed stuff like +1 walking wake unlike other scarfers like enamorus

I actually use latias as a specs mon sometimes and it's not the worst thing ever. Mist Ball + BoltBeam 2: VoicePulse (Alluring Voice + Dragon Pulse) make it legitimately threatening, chunking even resists for good damage. This in addition to healing wish means it's not actually that bad. It's definitely not the best thing but it's consistent in what it does

I'm glad to see another player bring up Tera Blast + Shadow Ball! Really enjoyed using this set in DLC 1 to beat Heatran and Cinderace which were spammed quite a bit back then. I think Heatran usage has really fallen down, but its still a nice set for that mon + good into some other tough match-ups like Volcarona + Ting-Lu.

I think you make some good points. Covert Cloak Boldengo is likely good with all the ID Zama + Garg being spammed, espicially based on the few replays I've seen of it in action. With Arch gone, that Tera Blast Water + Thunder set also sounds quite appealing, esp since it provides rain with a crucial Dragon resistance.

Heatran will rise again he is still one of the best glue pokemon of all time

 

[Alternator]

No, it would just be an unofficial metagame. We have plenty of them. The real question is why the mere suggestion of such illicits such hostility. I played OU Blitz in both Gen 7 and Gen 8. It followed OU tiering and had an unofficial ladder. It was not the format for any official tournaments. What is the big deal about alternative option?

Then be the change you want to see and start one on Discord. It'll start out challenge-only, and if it gets popular it'll become supported on Showdown.

The only reason such a group doesn't exist is that none of the ban-tera advocates care enough to invest the time and effort to make it happen.

 

[Carl The Turtle]

Then be the change you want to see and start one on Discord. It'll start out challenge-only, and if it gets popular it'll become supported on Showdown.

The only reason such a group doesn't exist is that none of the ban-tera advocates care enough to invest the time and effort to make it happen.

Seconding this - isn't this how UUbers was made anyway? If you start a format and it gets big enough, you can probably find a way to get a playable ladder version of it.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Seconding this - isn't this how UUbers was made anyway? If you start a format and it gets big enough, you can probably find a way to get a playable ladder version of it.

i've been advocating for them to do this for a while. hell, i'd start it myself but a lot of people don't like me right now so i don't think it's a good idea for me to try spearheading something like that at the moment