Work it, Make it, Do it, Makes us...

DeLorean

Hey Guys. 'Nother Daft Punk team.

I made a new team and it's working well. Simple effective strategy. :heart:
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**Long Version** (It's quite long, but better)
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Ok, so I'll start from the top. I'm no fan of large setups. That being said, I'm no fan of purely special teams. If you can setup and go, it's awwwwight.

So, I decided I'd setup for a sweep that's hueg like xbox WITHOUT having to resort to a shaky baton pass chain.

Naturally, I wanted something that could switch in and strike hard. This suggested a choice item, like specs or band. This would mean I can switch in and destroy with ease. The problem is naturally, safe switching. This is easier when your switched in from a slower thing (e.g, U-Turn), or just incapacitate my foe (e.g, Sleep). Next, I wanted something that, as well as unrivaled power, has unriveled speed. Naturally, this suggests a priority move.

So what runs a sky-high attack stat and a strong priority move? Of couse! Azumarill!

So, how can he come in with no counters? I take them out! I have 5 pokes for that, so it can't be too hard.

Counters are basically physical walls and things that resist water.

So, what resists water?

These buggers. (Top 50 from shoddy)

Garchomp
Gyarados
Salamence
Swampert
Starmie
Breloom
Celebi
Vaporeon
Suicune
Milotic
Tentacruel
Dragonite
Roserade

These are all the waters, grasses, and dragons in the top 50. If it's not there, I don't care. Now, if I can counter these, I'm scot free.

So, as the problem with this team is the same problem as the schlieffen plan. It's a tad too inflexable.

Looking at surgo's old togekiss RMT, I wanted to be able to pose a sweep even if azumarril dies, or gets burnt, ect, ect.
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**Short Version** You'll end up reading this.
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TL;DR: Azumarill team thats made to take down waters, grasses, dragons, and physical and sweep with aqua jet. If this fails, I want to pull of a decent sweep still. :-)
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**At A Glance**
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dpffb184.png

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**The Team**
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Faster (Azelf) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 36 HP/36 Atk/220 Spd/218 SAtk
Naive nature (+Spd, -SDef)
= Shadow Ball
= Fire Blast
= Thunderbolt
= U-turn

My super speedy lead, and my insurance against common physical walls.

While not really an antilead, it's for getting physical walls hard and for stopping some bulky waters.

I pulled out some physical walls, and how zelfie counters them;

Bronzong ; Fire Blast, Although rain dance variants are a problem. I can just U-Turn outta there.
Skarmory ; Fire Blast ftw.
Forretress ; Fire Blast is still ftw.
Gliscor ; I would try not to switch in to this; mamo can kill him.
Cresselia ; Shadow Ball
Celebi ; Shadow Ball, Fire Blast...
Hippowdon ; Stuck on him, but azumarril and mamoswine deal with him.
Dusknoir ; Shadow Ball is mainly to deal with this bitch. Shadow Sneak and Pursuit make him next to impossible to deal with. And Thunder Punch / Will 'o Wisp cripple azumarril until it's impossible to sweep.
Jirachi ; Fire Blast
Suicune ; Thunder Bolt
Scizor ; Fire Blast
Spiritomb ; Again, a crippling azelf counter, because of pursuit. But shadow ball and U-Turn are a huge help.
Weezing ; Another thing that sucks ass, because of will 'o wisp and thunder bolt.
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Harder (Hariyama) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 76 HP/180 Atk/252 Def
Impish nature (+Def, -SAtk)
= Force Palm
= Stone Edge
= Rest
= Sleep Talk

This is insurance, but unreplaceable. This is my insurance against those bastards, gyara, weavile, and tyranitar.

Also my sleep absorber, so roserade can't get me, which, again, I shall explain soon.
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Better (Tangrowth) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 HP/228 Def/30 Spd
Impish nature (+Def, -SAtk)
= Power Whip
= Sleep Powder
= Knock Off
= Leech Seed

My Swampert Counter, and the third unnecessary line of defence against gyarados.

Also my physical wall. A good one at that.
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Work it (Mamoswine) (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Oblivious
EVs: 64 HP/252 Atk/192 Spd
Lonely nature (+Atk, -Def)
= Ice Shard
= Earthquake
= Stone Edge
= Icicle Spear

So useful it hurts.

While all of you question the use of icicle spear, it's actually very, very helpful.

It's mainly there for 3 fairly good reasons.

-Sub Punching Dragonite
Cripples it and stops the punch

-Sub Dance Garchomp
BOOM.

-Lead Roserade
Negates Focus Sash and kills it; roserade can stop azumarril in his tracks.
I'll explain my anti-rade plan in a little while.
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Do it (Blissey) (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 148 HP/252 Def/10 Spd/100 SAtk
Calm nature (+SDef, -Atk)
= Hidden Power [Ground]
= Thunderbolt
= Softboiled
= Toxic

I am such a cunt.

Blissey is the definition of standard, but the standard EV spread? Come on, man.

At least the spread is OK. :D

HP ground for raikou, sub jirachi, and lucario.

Thunderbolt is for bulky waters again, namely starmie.
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Stronger (Azumarill) (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 212 HP/252 Atk/44 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
= Aqua Jet
= Waterfall
= Double-edge
= Focus Punch

IMMA CHARGIN' MAH LAZER

The star of the show, and my total owner. :D

No explanation.
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**Azumarill's gone... now what?**
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Now what? We sweep with hariyama, azelf, and mamoswine.

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**Highly Specific Threat List**
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-Revised, ty carrot-

Garchomp: Garchomp can't take a boosted ice shard from mamo, revenge kill, y'see. A total counter is hard, but mamo is a good revenge killer.
Gyarados: Hariyama is the best thing for this. Restank, while whittling him down with stone edge. I also have azelf and tangrowth, who are great counters.
Salamence: Again, mamo can revenge kill. Blissey can also take pure special variants, most all-physical ones are walled and stalled by a combonation of tangrowth and hariyama. One sleeps / knocks off, while the other stone edges him to oblivion.
Swampert: Tangrowth.
Starmie: Blissey is the best thing for starmie.
Breloom: Another great reason for icicle spear. I'll absorb sleep with hariyama and mamo can icicle spear him and negate focus punch. Great synergy.
Celebi: Mamoswine and azelf have ice shard and fire blast, depending on celebi's EV's.
Vaporeon: Azelf has tbolt to get him. Same with blissey.
Suicune: Azelf has thunderbolt, Tangrowth has power whip, and Blissey has thunderbolt...
Milotic: Azelf has thunderbolt, Tangrowth has power whip, and Blissey has thunderbolt...
Tentacruel: Azelf has thunderbolt, Tangrowth has power whip, and Blissey has thunderbolt...
Dragonite: Mamoswine has ice shard.
Roserade: As explained.

Now, lets review. The lead roserade set has

-Grass STAB
-Sleep Move
-Fire Move
-Entry Hazard
@ Sash

So, how do I stop these?

Grass STAB is stopped by Tangrowth.
Sleep Move is stopped by Hariyama
Fire Move is stopped by Hariyama
Entry Hazard is gay and I don't care.
And Sash is stopped by icicle spear.

And any other set is stopped by Ice Shard.

I went out of my way to negate everything. Call me thorough.
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**POSSIBLE CH-CH-CHANGES** I need halp with this!
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-Rash Azelf; Timid Scarfgars, or firepower?
-Serene Grace > Natural Cure; Status Reciving or giving?
-Starmie > Tangrowth; Swampert counter or Rapid Spinner?



Now rate! Rejoice! And if I overlooked a single EV, don't hesitate to flame the fuck out of me.

Sorry about the TL;DR.

RMT! :heart:
 
Oh but see, the downfall here is that you will fall, with no doubt, to any stall team. Skarmory comes in on what, half of your Pokemons, and proceeds to lay down Spikes. That's going to be 25% off your life, and with the 80 million things that have access to Stealth Rocks, there goes that too.

With the way the metagame is nowadays, you can almost expect Sandstorm to be out there, which will not help any of your Pokemons at all, as you actually could get swept by a Skarmory.

Another issue you would have is the ever so common Lucario nowadays, whether the Swords Dancer, or the Specs version, it's probably going to pick off something one by one.

Now there's no way to cover up all your holes, but a Starmie could be appreciated here, if not just for the Rapid Spinning alone, but is also able to handle most other waters, for the most part.

The logical choice to be removed of course would be Tangrowth, as it's just a sitting duck and will probably die to a Weavile's Ice Beam, if given the chance.
 
Why are you running Naive > Rash on Azelf? I think you'd have much more success with that extra power boost. With 216 Speed EVs you outspeed all Modest ScarfGars, and you still outpace Yanmega after a speed boost. You didn't specify why you aren't running a +SpAtk nature.
 
Easily the longest post I've seen you make.

Aeroblacktyl said:
Oh but see, the downfall here is that you will fall, with no doubt, to any stall team. Skarmory comes in on what, half of your Pokemons, and proceeds to lay down Spikes. That's going to be 25% off your life, and with the 80 million things that have access to Stealth Rocks, there goes that too.

As omnipresent as skarmory may be, azelf comes on to him and wrecks untold havoc on many, many skarmories. He gets 2 layers up. So what? Most of the teams I've faced don't have any of these threats, and skarm is brought down with careful prediction and a CB mamo stone edge.

With the way the metagame is nowadays, you can almost expect Sandstorm to be out there, which will not help any of your Pokemons at all, as you actually could get swept by a Skarmory.

Fuck me.

Another issue you would have is the ever so common Lucario nowadays, whether the Swords Dancer, or the Specs version, it's probably going to pick off something one by one.

Y HALO THAR AZUMARRIL.

Now there's no way to cover up all your holes, but a Starmie could be appreciated here, if not just for the Rapid Spinning alone, but is also able to handle most other waters, for the most part.

Because of what I said, starmie seems unessicary. But It has been considered, and I may change my mind.

The logical choice to be removed of course would be Tangrowth, as it's just a sitting duck and will probably die to a Weavile's Ice Beam, if given the chance.

I don't intend to be coy, but weaviles ice beam intruiges me.
Click to expand...

Pulse said:
Why are you running Naive > Rash on Azelf? I think you'd have much more success with that extra power boost. With 216 Speed EVs you outspeed all Modest ScarfGars, and you still outpace Yanmega after a speed boost. You didn't specify why you aren't running a +SpAtk nature.
Click to expand...

Mainly because I don't need that extra power to get all those threats. You give me some calcs, I'll make the change.

EDIT:
The Problem is that Azelf cant outspeed Common leads such as Scarf Gars with a SP Att Nature , it need the speed.
Click to expand...

That too.
 
Was that reference about Azumarill in response to Lucario suppose to mean that Azumarill was a counter? I would assume so because for most of your threats list, you have Pokemon with super effective attacks against the opposing Pokemon listed as a counter.

These Pokemon are not counters. Sure, they can possibly OHKO the opposing Pokemon, but they cannont switch in. Do you really think that Mamoswine wants to take a Draco Meteor or Brick Break from Salamence? What about a Grass Knot from Celebi or a Draco Meteor from Dragonite? Focus Punch from Breloom? Azelf doesn't want to get smacked with a bulkygyara Waterfall and definately not a Choice Band Gyarados Waterfall. The list goes on.
 
SpecsLuke said:
The Problem is that Azelf cant outspeed Common leads such as Scarf Gars with a Sp Att Nature , it need the speed.
Click to expand...

Unless people are running Timid ScarfGars now, Azelf can outrun them even with a neutral Speed Nature. 115 Base Speed vs. 110... Also, I don't think you need any calculations, it is just pretty damn obvious that you'll hit a lot harder with a Rash Nature. If you need something to compare it to, it would be like using a Jolly ScarfCross as opposed to an Adamant one.
 
Dark Void said:
Was that reference about Azumarill in response to Lucario suppose to mean that Azumarill was a counter? I would assume so because for most of your threats list, you have Pokemon with super effective attacks against the opposing Pokemon listed as a counter.

I probably could have phrased that well, as opposed to being a douchebag. It was late.

All though there's a large lucario threat, and I can only sort-of counter physical ones (hariyama can paralyze and rest off the damage), I do have 2 perfectly good revenge killers.

While I lack the ability to switch in and destroy lucario, I can switch in after he gets a kill and destroy him.

One of the main things I think you guys are missing is the fact that most teams only have a physical wall. Which I can take down. As far as revenge kills go, I'm prepared to make a few sacrifices in order to win.

These Pokemon are not counters. Sure, they can possibly OHKO the opposing Pokemon, but they cannont switch in. Do you really think that
Mamoswine wants to take a

Draco Meteor or Brick Break from Salamence?

Tangrowth Knocks off Item, reveals set. Appropriate counter somes out. Blissey, Hariyama, or I can just send out Mamoswine to take on that =4 draco meteor.

What about a Grass Knot from Celebi or a

Blissey.

Draco Meteor from Dragonite?

Blissey.

Focus Punch from Breloom?

Tangrowth.

Azelf doesn't want to get smacked with a bulkygyara Waterfall and definately not a Choice Band Gyarados Waterfall.

Tangrowth sure does.

The list goes on.
Click to expand...

I know pokes can't take on threats specifically, but I can still bring them down through walls. A lot of the game is revenge killing.

Pulse said:
Unless people are running Timid ScarfGars now, Azelf can outrun them even with a neutral Speed Nature. 115 Base Speed vs. 110... Also, I don't think you need any calculations, it is just pretty damn obvious that you'll hit a lot harder with a Rash Nature. If you need something to compare it to, it would be like using a Jolly ScarfCross as opposed to an Adamant one.

They ARE running timid scarfgars now, and I don't need the extra power.

I am considering rash, and I am doing calcs.
Click to expand...

Sorry if I seem like a dick. I'm really enjoying all the in depth responses. Keep 'em coming!
 
Umm... Well if you really encounter a lot of Timid ScarfGars, then go ahead and run Naive. But about your other reply, you say Tangrowth will knock off Salamence's Item.. If your opponent has a brain, they will switch out if they are running a Physical version and Fire Blast if it is Mixed/Special. If they do the latter, you'll have lost a VERY key component in taking out Azumarril's counters.
 
Xaio, nice team. I like some of the lesser-used, but still powerful, Pokémon, like Tangrowth, Hariyama, and Azumarill.

I'll take a closer look later today when I have more time, but I wanted to mention that Icicle Spear doesn't negate Focus Sash. All the hits of a multi-hit attack like that count as one attack for Focus Sash, so it still kicks in. I still think Icicle Spear's a cool idea, but I didn't want you to be surprised if this came up in actual play.

Oh, and I have no idea how it works on Shoddy. Maybe it's different there.
 
on blissey, you may want serene grace, just to increase the amount of paralysis, which would help compensate for azumarril's total lack of speed.
 
TheMaskedNitpicker said:
Xaio, nice team. I like some of the lesser-used, but still powerful, Pokémon, like Tangrowth, Hariyama, and Azumarill.

Thanks. That means alot coming from someone as thorough as you. =)

I'll take a closer look later today when I have more time, but I wanted to mention that Icicle Spear doesn't negate Focus Sash. All the hits of a multi-hit attack like that count as one attack for Focus Sash, so it still kicks in. I still think Icicle Spear's a cool idea, but I didn't want you to be surprised if this came up in actual play.

Another thing I could have explained WAY better.

The idea is that the would-be OHKO from icicle spear kicks in focus sash, thus destroying focus sash and leaving roserade at 1 hit point.

HOWEVER.

Icicle spear strikes 2-5 times, the next time killing roserade. That's what I mean by "negate".

Oh, and I have no idea how it works on Shoddy. Maybe it's different there.
Click to expand...

Stathakis said:
on blissey, you may want serene grace, just to increase the amount of paralysis, which would help compensate for azumarril's total lack of speed.
Click to expand...

This goes into the consideration pile, but I want something to absorb will 'o wisps.

Pulse said:
Umm... Well if you really encounter a lot of Timid ScarfGars, then go ahead and run Naive. But about your other reply, you say Tangrowth will knock off Salamence's Item.. If your opponent has a brain, they will switch out if they are running a Physical version and Fire Blast if it is Mixed/Special. If they do the latter, you'll have lost a VERY key component in taking out Azumarril's counters.
Click to expand...

What, my swampert counter? Azelf can still shadow ball the hell out of him.

Thanks guys! I'm making a possible changes section now..
 
So, you want a Azumarill sweep. That's nice, but how do you actually go about bringing down the counters? All I see is a list of how you counter Azumarill's counters, not a list of how you are fainting them.
 
Karrot said:
So, you want a Azumarill sweep. That's nice, but how do you actually go about bringing down the counters? All I see is a list of how you counter Azumarill's counters, not a list of how you are fainting them.
Click to expand...

I'll add this to the original post, but here we go?

Garchomp: Garchomp can't take a boosted ice shard from mamo, revenge kill, y'see. A total counter is hard, but mamo is a good revenge killer.
Gyarados: Hariyama is the best thing for this. Restank, while whittling him down with stone edge. I also have azelf and tangrowth, who are great counters.
Salamence: Again, mamo can revenge kill. Blissey can also take pure special variants, most all-physical ones are walled and stalled by a combonation of tangrowth and hariyama. One sleeps / knocks off, while the other stone edges him to oblivion.
Swampert: Tangrowth.
Starmie: Blissey is the best thing for starmie.
Breloom: Another great reason for icicle spear. I'll absorb sleep with hariyama and mamo can icicle spear him and negate focus punch. Great synergy.
Celebi: Mamoswine and azelf have ice shard and fire blast, depending on celebi's EV's.
Vaporeon: Azelf has tbolt to get him. Same with blissey.
Suicune: Azelf has thunderbolt, Tangrowth has power whip, and Blissey has thunderbolt...
Milotic: Azelf has thunderbolt, Tangrowth has power whip, and Blissey has thunderbolt...
Tentacruel: Azelf has thunderbolt, Tangrowth has power whip, and Blissey has thunderbolt...
Dragonite: Mamoswine has ice shard.
Roserade: As explained.
 
Xaio said:
What, my swampert counter? Azelf can still shadow ball the hell out of him.
Click to expand...

You bring up a good point. Maybe try testing something like Celebi in Tangrowth's spot. It seems like the main thing Tangrowth is doing is stopping Swampert. Celebi can step in and do the same thing, but have reliable recovery and can probably contribute more to the team. But of course, it's up to you. I would really suggest testing Celebi though.

Final words.. Props for using Hariyama. I don't use that set, but Hariyama is so beastly in general. Good luck with the team man.
 
Pulse said:
You bring up a good point. Maybe try testing something like Celebi in Tangrowth's spot. It seems like the main thing Tangrowth is doing is stopping Swampert. Celebi can step in and do the same thing, but have reliable recovery and can probably contribute more to the team. But of course, it's up to you. I would really suggest testing Celebi though.

Final words.. Props for using Hariyama. I don't use that set, but Hariyama is so beastly in general. Good luck with the team man.
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I can finally force a comment out of you. ;)

Thanks for all the help pulse, but I was wondering if you knew a good celebi set to use. I've been testing it; I don't like all those weaknesses, (the weavile weak void is widening!), but he's actually being OK with this team.

I suggest if you have a weavile / tyranitar / gyarados problem, there is no better counter. ever.

Thanks pulse, you've been sooo helpful. =D
 
Xaio said:
I can finally force a comment out of you. ;)

Thanks for all the help pulse, but I was wondering if you knew a good celebi set to use. I've been testing it; I don't like all those weaknesses, (the weavile weak void is widening!), but he's actually being OK with this team.

I suggest if you have a weavile / tyranitar / gyarados problem, there is no better counter. ever.

Thanks pulse, you've been sooo helpful. =D
Click to expand...

When worst comes to worst, I like to run the Leech Seed set. It works great to give some healing to the team (Hariyama flat out loves it) while you still have Recover at your disposal. Since it's filling Tangrowth's role, make it Bold and focus on the Defense and HP. For the moves, Leech Seed + Recover + HP Ice + Grass Knot always works for me. HP Ice is just filler, but it gives you something reliable vs. Garchomp.

Also, I STILL think you should run Rash on Azelf, but if I can't change your mind ah well.
 
Pulse said:
When worst comes to worst, I like to run the Leech Seed set. It works great to give some healing to the team (Hariyama flat out loves it) while you still have Recover at your disposal. Since it's filling Tangrowth's role, make it Bold and focus on the Defense and HP. For the moves, Leech Seed + Recover + HP Ice + Grass Knot always works for me. HP Ice is just filler, but it gives you something reliable vs. Garchomp.

Also, I STILL think you should run Rash on Azelf, but if I can't change your mind ah well.
Click to expand...

Sounds like a good set; although tan already has it, it could also be helpful for azumaril support.

YOU CAN CONVINCE ME. I'll explain with a courtroom analogy...

Lawyer A; ...and so, without a shadow of a doubt, we can prove that billy everyteen is responsible for the untimely murder and rape of John Doe.

Judge; damn. that shit is fine evidence. Your closing remarks, lawyer B?

Lawyer B; iono. he didn't doit.

Judge; WELL I JUST CAN'T MAKE UP MY MIND. Lets go with lawyer B.

See? Bring me calcs, I'll change my mind.

Testing that celebi.
 
Xaio said:
I'll add this to the original post, but here we go?

Garchomp: Garchomp can't take a boosted ice shard from mamo, revenge kill, y'see. A total counter is hard, but mamo is a good revenge killer.
Gyarados: Hariyama is the best thing for this. Restank, while whittling him down with stone edge. I also have azelf and tangrowth, who are great counters.
Salamence: Again, mamo can revenge kill. Blissey can also take pure special variants, most all-physical ones are walled and stalled by a combonation of tangrowth and hariyama. One sleeps / knocks off, while the other stone edges him to oblivion.
Swampert: Tangrowth.
Starmie: Blissey is the best thing for starmie.
Breloom: Another great reason for icicle spear. I'll absorb sleep with hariyama and mamo can icicle spear him and negate focus punch. Great synergy.
Celebi: Mamoswine and azelf have ice shard and fire blast, depending on celebi's EV's.
Vaporeon: Azelf has tbolt to get him. Same with blissey.
Suicune: Azelf has thunderbolt, Tangrowth has power whip, and Blissey has thunderbolt...
Milotic: Azelf has thunderbolt, Tangrowth has power whip, and Blissey has thunderbolt...
Tentacruel: Azelf has thunderbolt, Tangrowth has power whip, and Blissey has thunderbolt...
Dragonite: Mamoswine has ice shard.
Roserade: As explained.
Click to expand...
you still havent explained how you make them faint

you just listed how you countered/revenge killed them them
 
Why is Mamoswine Lonely? Icicle Spear is a physical move, so I see absolutely no need to drop its defense down. And don't you think Hail Teams are more often seen than Attract? I would run Snow Cloak.


^^Beaten... >_>
 
Excuse me, sir, I think you are missing the whole point. That's just the problem. Mamoswine can Ice Shard Dragonite, but that doesn't mean Dragonite is going to stay in and die. Your entire team revolves around the idea that your opponent will leave in Celebi to take a Mamoswine Ice Shard, or let it "revenge kill" Salamence, or let Milotic stay in to die to repeated Thunderbolts. Unless your opponent is in the slightest incompetent, then your team's "strategy" falls apart.

If you really wanted to get rid of something, the Pokemon to get rid of assumed problem Pokemon has to be one the problem Pokemon will switch in to. For example, a Steelix will almost always attract Grass or Water Pokemon to switch in, and that's where you explode and take them down so that your (Pokemon that benefits from the lack of Water/Grass type Pokemon) is able to sweep. That is how you eliminate counters.
 
Just by looking at your 6 pokemon, I can see that Heracross walks all over your team. Consider Gliscor somewhere, preferably over Tangrowth.
 
Fishin said:
Just by looking at your 6 pokemon, I can see that Heracross walks all over your team. Consider Gliscor somewhere, preferably over Tangrowth.
Click to expand...

Well, it's true that the team doesn't have a Heracross counter. A single Choice-Item Heracross can't sweep the whole team in one go, though. There is a Hariyama with a high physical defense to take Megahorns and Stone Edges. It would be nice to have a Fighting resist that wasn't as frail as Azelf, but there are options other than Gliscor if the player can predict well.
 
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