Metagame 1v1 Old Gens

[Mishlef]

With the conclusion of OGPL II the SS Council is releasing the post OGPL II as promised. We encourage as many people to submit. This is the time for your voice to be heard!

https://forms.gle/5uoL6rEqYeuB1RWe9

 

[stravench]

With the conclusion of OGPL comes the development of the DPP metagame.

We've seen certain mons being prominently used and I'd like to address my issues in regarding some of them.

Clefable has gotten a lot better compared to the previous iteration of OGPL because of the ban of Jirachi. It commonly runs a specially defensive stall set or a physically defensive counter set with the occasional use of the offensive life orb variant because of it's magic guard ability making it immune to life orb recoil which would be detrimental in when in low hp forcing a tie. I fear that keeping Clefable in the tier would not be healthy for the tier. As someone who built for the tier, Clefable is a pain to build against. I found myself needing specific sets just to have a shot at it because it's so versatile that even choice banded fighting types lost to the Chople counter set. The specially defensive set was no slouch either as it could viably beat mons that it normally would not with the help of paralysis and stalling turns with soft boiled. The life orb offensive variant, though niche, still was usable in certain scenarios. All these sets and the fact that Clefable cannot be fully paralyzed this generation makes it rather an unhealthy mon in the meta.

Cresselia is a bulky psychic type cut and dry. It beats what you expect it beats and loses to some mons. Cress was not much of a standout this tour but it was mostly because of Clefable and Tyranitar being everywhere though we'll get to Tyranitar later. It was not showcased enough but Cress could beat most mons of the tier though it comes with the opportunity cost of not being able to do everything which makes it susceptible to being set guessed. It often ran a specs set, or a calm mind set. Both have their pros and cons but both can do their part.

Since Jirachi's ban, Tyranitar's prominence has been shown but not because of it being broken but rather because it was a versatile glue on the team. Tyranitar beating Cress, Raikou, and Zapdos, 3 prominent mons, makes it that good but at the same time it does not feel broken. There are multiple ways around it that I feel are still in the healthy range of the metagame.

I asked around and some have mentioned that mail might be a problem and I can see why. Mail in DPP, unlike in the succeeding generations, is not revealed on preview. This limits counterplay and has rendered trick strategies to be unviable. Is it overbearing? I feel like with certain mons it is but in general no.

Thoughts on what should be done
In my opinion, Clefable needs to be considered for a ban. I feel like it has a negative impact on the metagame with the it's incredibly versatile sets. It has rendered some strategies useless. This is one of the rare instances that a stall pokemon is too strong for the metagame. If Clefable banned, do I think Cress becomes too strong? The answer is likely no. A clef ban would lead the way for certain tactics like subseed to be better. Other stall mons might have a chance since there is no mon that just destroys every single one of them with encore. As for Tyranitar, I just felt like giving it a shout out but in reality I feel like it is a health part of the metagame. If for some reason Clefable is not at all banned, I feel like another option is to take a look at mail but that is in a very unlikely scenario.

 

[Euphonos]

cc: Inkreativ, 187 Fan, Jabiru

Clefable has gotten a lot better compared to the previous iteration of OGPL because of the ban of Jirachi. It commonly runs a specially defensive stall set or a physically defensive counter set with the occasional use of the offensive life orb variant because of it's magic guard ability making it immune to life orb recoil which would be detrimental in when in low hp forcing a tie. I fear that keeping Clefable in the tier would not be healthy for the tier. As someone who built for the tier, Clefable is a pain to build against. I found myself needing specific sets just to have a shot at it because it's so versatile that even choice banded fighting types lost to the Chople counter set. The specially defensive set was no slouch either as it could viably beat mons that it normally would not with the help of paralysis and stalling turns with soft boiled. The life orb offensive variant, though niche, still was usable in certain scenarios. All these sets and the fact that Clefable cannot be fully paralyzed this generation makes it rather an unhealthy mon in the meta.

As the leader of the DPP 1v1 metagame, I can definitely attest how Clefable looks more unhealthy the longer it stays in the metagame, especially with Magic Guard preventing any form of passive damage and even full paralysis (latter only applies to Gen 4), which means SubSeed strategies, getting Toxic'd, and getting any shred of full paralysis doesn't matter. While Fighting-types and Taunt shenanigans are the most notable strategies in dealing with Clefable, the former isn't really a safe pick due to the presence of Chople Counter sets that have been gaining traction since the inception of Multigen in 1v1PL VI. There are other Pokemon who are capable of dealing with Clefable that aren't Fighting-types, notably Slaking and Ursaring, but the latter being prone to Encore on turn 1 makes it an uphill battle to climb.

As one of the proponents to at least suspect Cresselia over the past two years, I'm also being dead set into suspecting Cresselia alongside Clefable, but stravench's post still made my reservations to it (which contradicts what Lumii has mentioned to me since the beginning of OGPL); Lumii told me that it takes great heights to deal with Cresselia such as using some niche mons like Jolteon, only to find out it takes greater heights to deal with Clefable than with Cresselia. I think just the presence of Cresselia would be more than enough for the metagame to adapt to it than adding Clefable to the mix, which would be more painful to build in this era.

Before we proceed with whatever metagame updates I'd be doing for DPP, I would like to thank the other following people not mentioned here that helped shape the DPP 1v1 metagame in OGPL II which provided us a lot more insights upon seeing you guys battle: dreepy, Rei, Nuxl, and Slip (with autumn and SuperMemeBroz to some extent as well). Looking forward to seeing you guys participate in DPP 1v1-related projects that we could potentially cook in the near future, so stay tuned!

 

[Euphonos]

BREAKING NEWS: DPP 1v1 METAGAME UPDATES!

As the second 1v1 Old Gens Premier League draws to a close, I am now bringing updates to the state of the DPP 1v1 metagame. (apologies for the double post btw)


I. THE COUNCIL SHAKE-UP

I would like to thank Jabiru, Inkreativ, and 187 Fan for their past contributions to the metagame; however, due to their general inactivity, this pains me to put them in the inactive council list, which removes them the ability to partake in future suspect voting processes, including the upcoming suspect test that will be mentioned later in this post. On the flipside, I am happy to inform everyone that Elo Bandit, Nuxl, and former council member Jamez are now officially appointed as new metagame council members!



II. MOONLIGHT SONATA: A CLEFABLE SUSPECT TEST NOW LIVE

The Clefable suspect test is now live! The three aforementioned, most recent DPP 1v1 posts by Nuxl, stravench, and myself have now attested how hard Clefable is to build against given their set variety having a different set of counters. This has caught the attention of some of our DPP 1v1 playerbase, especially those who played in the second 1v1 Old Gens Premier League this year, and I believe this is the right time to take urgent tiering action against this Pokemon.

Here's the list of qualified voters for this suspect test:

Current Council
Euphonos
stravench
Elo Bandit
Nuxl
Jamez

OGPL II Representatives (played at least two DPP 1v1 matches)
Slip
Lumii
dreepy
Rei

1v1 Classic Playoffs - played at least two DPP 1v1 series games
DEG

DPP 1v1 Cup - reached Semifinals
fake tom numbers
Close
Potatochan
LittEleven

Voting will end on Sunday, the 14th of April, 10:00 PM GMT -4, and voting will take place through a Smogon Forums Conversation with these qualified voters which will be posted real shortly.


III. A NEW HUB

DPP 1v1 now has a Discord Server! Given this is a Smogon-sanctioned server, all rules apply. That said, feel free to help us contribute to the development of the DPP 1v1 metagame! See you all there!

 

[Elo Bandit]

II. MOONLIGHT SONATA: A CLEFABLE SUSPECT TEST NOW LIVE

The Clefable suspect test is now live! ....Voting will end on Sunday, the 14th of April, 10:00 PM GMT -4.

My thoughts on the DPP 1v1 Clefable Suspect Test

Clefable Sets

Clefable @ Chople Berry Apicot Berry Mail Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder Wave
- Encore
- Soft-Boiled
- Seismic Toss

Max Special Defense vs Thunderbolt and Aura Sphere users. Chople is optimal if your opponent has a Fighting-type move. Apicot Berry is best against specs tbolt/thunder spam. Mail blocks Trick, while Leftovers is always a good option for general bulk. Min speed optional.


Clefable @ Chople Berry
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 160 Def / 96 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Counter
- Soft-Boiled
- Seismic Toss
- Encore / Thunder Wave

Defense for Choice Band Heracross.


Clefable @ Chople Berry
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 248 HP / 164 Def / 96 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Charm
- Soft-Boiled
- Seismic Toss
- Encore / Thunder Wave

Speed and physical bulk for Rhyperior.

There are other viable sets for Clefable, but I'm choosing to focus primarily on the Seismic Toss stall sets.

Is Clefable broken in the sense that it’s too overpowered?

VR Matchups S through B-

Cresselia - Win (encore)
Tyranitar - Lose (taunt)
Zapdos - Win* (apicot vs metal sound)
Infernape - Lose (focus blast encore)
Raikou - Win* (apicot vs rest)
Celebi - Win* (encore)
Dragonite - Win* (twave encore vs superpower)
Metagross - Win* (counter vs substitute)
Aerodactyl - Lose* (taunt)
Hariyama - Lose* (chople counter vs guts cc)
Heatran - Lose* (taunt)
Kingdra - Win* (twave encore vs critfish)
Rhyperior - Lose* (fast charm vs ada band)
Suicune - Lose* (pressure rest)
Arcanine - Win (twave encore)
Bronzong - Win (twave encore)
Empoleon - Win (twave encore)
Gyarados - Lose* (taunt)
Heracross - Lose* (physdef chople counter vs cc)
Registeel - Win* (twave encore stoss vs rest protect)
Rotom-Appliance- Lose (ghost)
Scizor - Lose* (chople counter vs superpower)
Slaking - Lose* (chople counter vs rest)
Swampert - Win* (encore toss soft vs critfish)
Venusaur - Win* (twave encore toss vs overgrow)
Azelf - Win* (apicot twave toss vs nonspecs taunt)
Gallade - Lose* (chople counter vs cc)
Hippowdon - Lose* (counter toss encore vs rock tomb rest)
Sceptile - Win* (encore toss vs overgrow)
Staraptor - Win* (chople counter vs cc)
Tangrowth - Win (twave encore toss)
Weavile - Lose (taunt)
Alakazam - Lose (synchronize, taunt, recovery)
Ambipom - Lose (taunt, sub)
Armaldo - Lose* (twave toss vs rock blast)
Breloom - Lose* (chople counter vs superpower)
Entei - Lose (pressure rest)
Gastrodon - Win* (toss soft encore vs critfish)
Medicham - Lose* (chople counter vs hjk)
Moltres - Win* (apicot twave encore vs pressure rest)
Umbreon - Lose (taunt)

*Lots of these matchups are set-dependent, but still biased in one Pokemon’s favor. If you want to discuss a matchup, please send me a message on Discord and I’ll update the post rather than cluttering the thread, thank you!
Clefable reliable wins: 4/41
Clefable set-dependant wins: 14/41
Clefable set-dependant losses: 14/41
Clefable reliable losses: 9/41
Total Winrate: 18/41

On paper, Clefable does not threaten a majority of the VR, especially when counterplay from both sides is considered.
Looking at just the top 14 Pokemon (A- and above)

Top VR Stats

Clefable reliable wins: 1/14
Clefable set-dependant wins: 6/14
Clefable set-dependant losses: 5/14
Clefable reliable losses: 2/14
Total Winrate: 7/14

Clefable does not overwhelm the majority of the top VR, though it scores higher targeting the top rated Pokemon than the more generalized metagame. Clefable’s only reliable win in the top ranks is Cresselia, every other winning matchup is set-dependent. Clefable does not meet the standard of a broken (overpowered) Pokemon by these metrics. Let’s take a look at how it performed in OGPLII.

DPP 1v1 Stats

Clefable is being suspect tested largely because it’s popular (#1 is usage) and wins games when picked (61.54%). This is indicative of both the metagame and the players at this point in time (OGPLII). There was a large Clefable usage wave and players struggled to defeat it in battle over the course of the tour.
It’s worth noting that Clefable’s winrate (not just when picked) landed at 48.78%, below that critical 50% average breakpoint. It’s hard to justify a Pokemon as being overpowered in the metagame when its overall winrate is negative.

Is Clefable uncompetitive in the sense that it reduces the impact of player decisions, through RNG or other means?

Clefable has three aspects that introduce a sometimes uncomfortable level of RNG to the game.
First, Thunder Wave quarters an opponent’s speed stat and prevents it from moving 25% of the time. Primarily, Clefable cares about the speed drop aspect to secure a safe Encore turn 2, but the 25% full para chance is infuriating in some matchups.
Then, Encore lasts 4-8 turns. Players just have to hope for the min or max. This is not satisfying gameplay, because the bulk of player choices stop mattering after Encore lands and both players just start praying. It’s worth noting that builders lack a significant element of counterplay here, because Mental Herb only blocks Attract in gen 4.
Finally, using stall tactics in a high-crit gen is asking for rolls and crits. Clefable is used as a Stall Pokemon here with its only real offensive options being Seismic Toss or occasionally bolt/beam. This Pokemon fundamentally has to rely on spamming the move Soft-Boiled and not getting crit over the course of a match. Opponents with crit rate boosts achieve an uncomfortable, but slightly winning matchup against Clefable. Once again, skill expression is tossed to the wayside in favor of odds, this time critical hits.
Overall, Clefable introduces some RNG into the system, but nothing to the level of Serene Grace flinches or sleep. It’s actually fairly reflective of the generation’s crit-based matchup odds. With its normal sets, Clefable does not quite meet the standard of an uncompetitive Pokemon.

Is Clefable unhealthy in the sense that it makes matchups unclear?

Stats

4/18 of Clefable’s winning VR matchups are clear.
14/18 of Clefable’s winning VR matchups are unclear.
9/23 of Clefable’s losing VR matchups are clear.
14/23 of Clefable’s losing VR matchups are unclear.
Clear matchups: 13/41 (31.71%)
Unclear matchups: 28/41 (68.29%)

More than two thirds of Clefable’s VR matchups are unclear. It’s mostly going to come down to the moveset brought (anti-clefable vr-mon vs anti-vr-mon clefable) and the moves clicked in the first turns of battle. From a purely clicking standpoint, this might be manageable. Set reading and picking the right moves is part of the game. The nightmare comes when building teams. You can expect to run into Clefable (it’s no. 1 in usage) so are you going to plan to defeat it with one of a handful of good options OR force a set guess by combining Clefable checks on your team? The inverse of this problem occurs when building with Clefable. You’re only going to be able to beat certain sets of nearly every relevant Pokemon, forcing set guessing depending on chosen teammates.
This one is really close to the subjective line of “unhealthy.” Clefable can often switch up its turn 1 move choice to throw off potential checks. Building with the knowledge that you’re probably stuck having to outclick or get lucky vs Clefable if you don’t bring Taunt, PP stall, or Thunder Wave-immune Fighting-types just feels bad.

Clefable Counters - https://pokepast.es/8488bc724331c8eb

If Clefable is banned as a result of this suspect test, I hope that it’s made clear why. This Pokemon, while not overly powerful or choice-nullifying, has unhealthy aspects that require moveset and turn 1 move prediction, outside a handful of direct counters. Clefable muddies the waters of the majority of its matchups, forcing both player choice based 50-50s and RNG-based, near-coin flip odds instead of consistent wins in the metagame.

Bonus: Trying to make the whole VR beat Clefable - https://pokepast.es/a638893a2d2465ed

 

[Nuxl]

It’s ok that teams such as feraligatr ampharos azelf or infernape celebi yanmega or bronzong venusaur zapdos arent a viable three in dpp1v1

It’s good that you can lose because you failed to set read the clefable properly (and it’s imo very easy to do so by looking at its partners, it’s very projected what holes clefable needs to cover in a team so the “variability” does not seem to ring true in my head)

It’s not ok to assume clefable wins most of its matchups via hax, really clefable is generally going to be the one screwed over by things it should beat such as t1 paralysis from the top electrics. I cannot think of a poor on paper clefable matchup that goes down to a coinflip or has hax that spins a clefable loss into a win, since twave has its own errors. Even against physical fightings for twave spdef clef to win it needs to para you turn 1, and has to seismic toss you 3-4 times which means you should one/two shot by that point. If you got parad twice well ok gg I can think of another number that is (1/4)^2 hint hint the crit rate of dpp

If your checks to clefable require them doing something you expect (as opposed to another viable t1 move) it’s not a check to clefable, and you should try a bit harder in builder.

List of dubious checks that people assume are clef checks that you shouldn’t pretend are clef checks:

- Thunder on electrics (51/49 chances to hit after para! Lol)
- Sub/SD turn 1 with a physical pokemon (btw the spdef clefables out in the matchup is literally to encore you as if you are band it doesn’t matter)
- Trick (if you get encored t1 I think you lose)

Here are some actual checks that don’t int your team so go play around in builder with them:

The move Revenge is also a thing btw that I haven’t seen discussed shout-out Potatochan for this invention? which VR Pokémon such as hariyama/heracross/infernape/weavile/staraptor all learn and that 100%s clefable btw because you don’t kill urself on counter and if they ever seismic toss you they die and also p.s it means you should turbo own counter tar as well, which is another super annoying pokemon who if you fail to set read [and is even harder to do so] can turn a matchup loss into a win

Taunt is a very viable move because it also shuts down cm cress/registeel/literally every substaller ever [which are good mons!] alongside most clefable. Lots of good Pokémon learn it especially ones that don’t really need a fourth move

Other encore users also outplay if u know how the mechanics work standard clef which haven’t been explored in Azumarill, Poliwrath, and Gallade which have other niches such as sending tyranitar to the moon and having favorable type matchups.

My team vetoed Mismagius but it has a similar ability to nullify the clefable matchup like Rotom except it’s base 105 so it can actually do other shit like punish base 100s. There’s a Honchkrow set that should 100% all clefable and cress while also packing other useful moves to cover some A- ranks, maybe I’ll show you in TTT. If rotom is this high up on the VR because of its matchup into the top mons these mons basically do the same thing while having actual niches elsewhere. Various Porygon2 and Gengar should blast clefable to the moon. I have hitmontop as B+ on my pvr for a reason.

Etc etc these things I haven’t seen a ton of or much at all, like literally the only example I can point out is slip’s taunt tran w3 but I fear everyone else just wants to run bad pokemon like dragonite or choice band aerodactyl or entei or something lol and that’s why I’m the only one omega giga positive in this tier last tour!

I keep reading that clef 2-1s most teams but I feel like there’s more people can do in builder to make it less like that? Double taunt teams or more than 1 slot dedicated to be anti clef are very viable. Despite it being giga annoying its not actually terrible to punish. And its partners project what its set is gonna be lol.

Don’t get me wrong clefable isn’t a bad ban. Definitely makes the tier less boring as it giga simplifies the tier.

But I fear people are just kinda like hoping their 1 clef check is enough without actually thinking about roundabout ways to deal with the pokemon lol and we will prob run into the same issue with cress when it eventually goes up. I would encourage you to look in builder and do ur best for any such ban!

 

[Euphonos]

DPP 1v1 BREAKING NEWS: CLEFABLE IS NOW OFFICIALLY BANNED! ​

Well, that was quick. 13 out of the 14 qualified voters have already casted their votes; regardless of what the last voter would decide, we have reached the conclusion that Clefable is banned in DPP 1v1 moving forward.

Clefable
Eligible Voters: 14
Votes (before deadline): 13

Ban: 9​

No Ban: 4​

Abstain: 0​

(about to vote - abstain by default if not voting by the deadline): 1​

Ban %: 69.23% (64.29% if the last vote is no ban)
Threshold: 60%
Result: BAN

Tagging dhelmise for the implementation of this tiering change; thank you in advance!

 

[SuperMemeBroz]

Ain’t no fucking way people actually said “Do Not Ban”

 

[Mishlef]

We’ll be closing the SS survey on Friday so be sure to submit a response if you want to contribute to the tier! All responses welcome!

 

[luser]

I would like to share my thoughts on the current SS meta, its shortcomings, and how to improve.

First, I think it is important to note that I only have real experience in SS. I do not have a good standard to compare the meta to. Instead, I will look at it in a vacuum.

Second, here is roughly my personal tier list:

Hide

Some underrated mons are Heatran, Volcarona, Kyurem, Ninetales-Kanto, Suicune, Chansey, and Aegislash. Some overrated mons are Togekiss, Zeraora, and Zarude.

SS struggles in its extreme lack of centralization. While an overcentralizing presence is generally considered a good thing, years of aggressive bans during one of 1v1s most active times definitely contributed to a tier which personally feels extremely unsatisfying to build and play.

Very few matchups between top tiers are set. For example, take Cresselia vs Primarina. Generally, CM Stored Power Cresselia should win bar crits. However, Icy Wind + Encore Prim is an option to tech for Cresselia. Then, Lefties CM Cresselia arises to tech for that Prim. Even now, it is very much possible to beat Lefties CM Cresselia with Prim - ie Toxic + Icy Wind + Encore (stupid but very much fittable).

This issue is not limited to this matchup only. Looking at Prim, it has access to sets like Wacan (beats a decent chunk of Zeraora, and Regieleki), AV (removes 50/50s from matchups like Porygon-Z, helps vs Spectrier), and Kebia (for Protect LO Naganadel, the tech for Prim), as well as normal sets like Sitrus, Custap, and Specs.

This is not a post claiming Primarina is broken. Almost every good mon has this issue. Scroll through the setcomp and see 6-7 vastly different sets for most of the top mons (the Cresselia sets are outdated and there should also be Helmet and Leftovers). Each has vastly different matchups between the top tiers.

This problem will continue to grow. Over the past year or so, there have been countless innovations, especially to Cresselia, which I think are pushing the tier over the edge. Each mon is growing in unpredictability and uncounterability as people continue to push the meta forward.

I would like to argue that the most effective way to "fix" SS 1v1 is to FREE ZYGARDE-COMPLETE. I don't think banning Zygarde-50% is necessary - just free Power Construct entirely.

This may seem counterintuitive. Zygarde-Complete, to some extent, has many of the same issues as other top pokemon. It too has matchups which vary heavily based on set. It difficult to setguess on preview. Instead, I'd argue that by freeing Zygarde-Complete, the meta will shift towards rewarding consistent Zygarde-Complete answers. Unlike current top pokemon, Zygarde has a pretty diverse set of consistent answers. Obviously ice-types match up well, but so does ID Fini, Spectrier, Haxorus, ID Urshifu-R, Ferrothorn etc. Unlike other mons banned during the tail-end of SS, fitting a consistent Zygarde-Complete answer or two soft checks is not a big demand. Compare to Genesect (needed a fire), Necrozma (needed a dark), Jirachi (needed gmolt / shifu), etc. Zygarde-Complete can pretty comfortably be answered by otherwise good pokemon.

By freeing Power Construct, other top pokemon like Tapu Fini, Porygon-Z, and Spectrier now have a "mon to target" in Zygarde-C, and they have much less room for obnoxious cheese.

I believe that freeing Zygarde-Complete would benefit the long-term health of the metagame, and would like to see a tournament or a suspect slot next PL to investigate it further, and would like to open discussion for other SS players' takes on Zygarde.

I love SS, and would hate to see it die to stagnation.

 

[Blanched]

I'm going to preface this post by saying that everything here is directed at the argument presented and not the character of the poster. As somebody who played through the entirety of zygarde meta the idea of freeing zygarde-complete is a hilariously underbaked solution to a subjective problem that arguably does not exist. Let's go through this point by point.

SS struggles in its extreme lack of centralization. While an overcentralizing presence is generally considered a good thing, years of aggressive bans during one of 1v1s most active times definitely contributed to a tier which personally feels extremely unsatisfying to build and play.

An overcentralizing presence is considered a good thing to who? This is absolutely an issue of person to person perception of what constitutes a healthy metagame. SS 1v1 went through many, many eras of overcentralization surrounding different mons, from genesect to lax to zygarde to necrozma. The general consensus of every one of those metas was that building was extremely linear and and clicking was uninteractive. You start building with the broken mon, add one of the broken mon's 2-3 hard counters, and then do whatever you want in the 3rd slot, usually a counter to the broken mon's counter. The 3rd slot was usually the easiest to fill because of how far down the vr you were forced to search to find something that consistently beat every one of the 5-9 sets of the current broken. Heatran, sawk, and a-tales are mid at best, molt-g and urshifu are ok->good but not always consistent, krook was awful. Even if you weren't running the broken of the month you were forced to run one of these or accept that you could outright lose on preview. The linearity of building then leads to boring clicking. Do I click the broken guy or the one that beats the broken guy? You could try and fit a lure on your team but you have to accept the chance that you accidentally lured the wrong set (remember payapa nihilego vs eq necrozma?). Mons that can do this are not presences that make a tier enjoyable.

Very few matchups between top tiers are set. For example, take Cresselia vs Primarina. Generally, CM Stored Power Cresselia should win bar crits. However, Icy Wind + Encore Prim is an option to tech for Cresselia. Then, Lefties CM Cresselia arises to tech for that Prim. Even now, it is very much possible to beat Lefties CM Cresselia with Prim - ie Toxic + Icy Wind + Encore (stupid but very much fittable).

Are you actually dropping a stab move on prim to beat cress instead of just running a dark type? Nobody is going to accept a team that loses prim v. heatran or prim v. haxorus because you decided you didn't need moonblast or hydro.

This problem will continue to grow. Over the past year or so, there have been countless innovations, especially to Cresselia, which I think are pushing the tier over the edge. Each mon is growing in unpredictability and uncounterability as people continue to push the meta forward.

Then it can just be suspected. That's how tiering works. We didn't free victini when genesect was too much, we didn't free genesect when zygarde was too much, and we didn't free zygarde when necrozma was too much.

I would like to argue that the most effective way to "fix" SS 1v1 is to FREE ZYGARDE-COMPLETE. I don't think banning Zygarde-50% is necessary - just free Power Construct entirely.

This may seem counterintuitive. Zygarde-Complete, to some extent, has many of the same issues as other top pokemon. It too has matchups which vary heavily based on set. It difficult to setguess on preview. Instead, I'd argue that by freeing Zygarde-Complete, the meta will shift towards rewarding consistent Zygarde-Complete answers. Unlike current top pokemon, Zygarde has a pretty diverse set of consistent answers. Obviously ice-types match up well, but so does ID Fini, Spectrier, Haxorus, ID Urshifu-R, Ferrothorn etc. Unlike other mons banned during the tail-end of SS, fitting a consistent Zygarde-Complete answer or two soft checks is not a big demand. Compare to Genesect (needed a fire), Necrozma (needed a dark), Jirachi (needed gmolt / shifu), etc. Zygarde-Complete can pretty comfortably be answered by otherwise good pokemon.

Does it? ID fini is 50/50s from turn 1 vs subtox, and specs loses 90% of the time to spdef wp (yes it's technically rolls but wildly in zygarde's favor). Wisp spectrier is more turn 1 50/50s vs lum dd, unless it's disable>taunt, then it just loses. Ferro loses to coil rest zygarde (body press+leech aren't close to enough to break through complete form, ferro struggles first). Haxorus and Darm-g are about the only hard counters to zygarde (I am not counting scarf or custap reversal as real sets). And as for ID ursh-rapid, it wins until subtox zygarde starts running mental herb, which will win until ursh-rapid starts running lum over sitrus, sacrificing mus where it needs the healing until we end up at

Zygarde-complete is not going to help the issue of top tier tech wars. It's going to exacerbate the problem immensely. When you give a mon an ability that both doubles its already impressive bulk AND heals it for 50% mid-battle alongside a movepool with two boosting moves, debuffs, as much coverage as it needs on top of near-perfect neutral coverage in only two moves, you give it the ability to infinitely tech until its hard counters don't resemble viable sets at all (like icy wind encore toxic prim). This is not healthy for a tier and is the issue you perceive to already exist, but an order of magnitude more oppressive. Zyg is cresselia but 10 times worse in terms of set ambiguity, versatility, and broad stroke general winning matchups.

I believe that freeing Zygarde-Complete would benefit the long-term health of the metagame, and would like to see a tournament or a suspect slot next PL to investigate it further, and would like to open discussion for other SS players' takes on Zygarde.

As someone who plans on playing SS in the upcoming PL, please no. Zygarde had its tournament to shine where it warped every team into bringing multiple checks, hoping to stumble into a correct setread because it's nearly impossible to cover in one slot unless you want to run 1 of 3 counters. This is not an acceptable strain to place on teambuilding nor does it make for interesting or competitive in-game play. SS is good where it is, there is no need to reintroduce something that the community has already decided has no place in the tier.

 

[LittEleven]

https://forms.gle/NvC6XRFBMad4EaDz6

Seasonal ORAS review ft. Blaziken + Darkrai's potential return to the tier! Make sure to mention anything you'd like the council to know, if you'd like to aid in decision making.

Make sure to fill this form out by 11:59 PM, 28th April 2024 EST; after which responses will be closed to the public!

 

[Euphonos]

Good day, everyone! Here are some updates for DPP 1v1:

First of all, I just made a banner! Not exactly as perfect as I hoped, but still gets the job done hehe

Part 2 is that the Viability Rankings are now up! Here are the following:

Viability Rankings as finalized last 15 April)

S
Cresselia
Tyranitar

S-
Zapdos

A+
Celebi (from A)
Infernape
Metagross (from A)
Raikou

A
Aerodactyl (from A-)
Dragonite
Rhyperior (from A-)
Suicune (from A-)

A-
Heatran
Heracross (from B+)
Kingdra

B+
Azelf (from B)
Bronzong
Empoleon
Gyarados
Hariyama (from A-)
Moltres (from B-)
Registeel
Rotom-Appliance
Slaking
Swampert
Venusaur
Weavile (from B)

B
Alakazam (from B-)
Armaldo (from B-)
Entei (from B-)
Gallade
Gastrodon (from B-)
Hippowdon
Sceptile
Scizor (from B+)

B-
Ambipom
Arcanine (from B+)
Azumarill (from C+)
Blissey (from C+)
Breloom
Mamoswine (from C)
Medicham
Staraptor (from B)
Tangrowth (from B)
Umbreon

C+
Flygon (from C)
Gengar (from C)
Jolteon (from C)
Magmortar (from C)
Poliwrath (from C)
Porygon2 (from C-)
Slowbro (from C)
Ursaring (from C)

C
Cradily (from C-)
Feraligatr
Regice (from C-)
Roserade (from C+)

C-
Abomasnow
Ampharos (from C)
Camerupt
Dusknoir
Lanturn
Regirock
Skarmory (new entry)
Spiritomb
Walrein
Yanmega

D
Articuno (from C-)
Blaziken
Electivire (from C+)
Houndoom
Lucario
Torterra (from C-)

UR
Gliscor (from D)
Magnezone (from D)

Once again, I would like to announce that the DPP 1v1 now has a Discord Server! As mentioned earlier, given this is a Smogon-sanctioned server, all rules apply. There will be a new project coming from this Discord server soon, so come by there and join us as we're working on improving on our existing resources!

 

[crucify]

List of Differences (if i forgot a mon same rank)

Rises

A+ -> S-
A+ -> S-
A+ -> S-
A- -> S-

B -> A+ - should probably be A but IDC

A- -> A

B+ -> A-
B+ -> A-
B -> A-
B -> A-
B -> A-
B- -> A-

B -> B+
B- -> B+
C+ -> B+
C -> B+

B- -> B
B- -> B
B- -> B
B- -> B
C+ -> B
C+ -> B
C+ -> B
C -> B
C- -> B
C- -> B
C- -> B

C+ -> B-
C+ -> B-
C+ -> B-
C+ -> B-
C+ -> B-
C -> B-
C -> B-
C- -> B-
C- -> B-
C- -> B-
C- -> B-

C -> C+
C -> C+
C -> C+
C -> C+
C- -> C+
C- -> C+

C- -> C
C- -> C
C- -> C
C- -> C
D -> C
D -> C
UR -> C
UR -> C
UR -> C
UR -> C

D -> C-
D -> C-
D -> C-
UR -> C-
UR -> C-
UR -> C-
UR -> C-
UR -> C-
UR -> C-

UR -> D
UR -> D
UR -> D
UR -> D
UR -> D
UR -> D
UR -> D
UR -> D
UR -> D
UR -> D

Drops

S- -> A+
S- -> A+

A+ -> A

A -> A-

B+ -> B
B+ -> B
B+ -> B

B -> C+
B- -> C+
B- -> C+
B- -> C+
B- -> C+
B- -> C+
B- -> C+
B- -> C+

B- -> C
B- -> C
C+ -> C
C+ -> C
C+ -> C

B- -> C-
C+ -> C-
C -> C-
C -> C-
C -> C-

 

[Mishlef]

Thank you to DEG and Close for all the contributions they have given to SS as they leave the council. Additionally, we would like to welcome crow crumbs luser and crucify to the council. Results of the survey will be coming shortly so stay tuned.

 

[LittEleven]

https://forms.gle/NvC6XRFBMad4EaDz6

Seasonal ORAS review ft. Blaziken + Darkrai's potential return to the tier! Make sure to mention anything you'd like the council to know, if you'd like to aid in decision making.

Make sure to fill this form out by 11:59 PM, 28th April 2024 EST; after which responses will be closed to the public!

Hi! Thanks for your responses. Compared to these results are those from previous surveys: here and here; if you need to catch up; but regardless, this seems to be a more positive survey overall.

Survey responses:

1. How fun was ORAS to watch in OGPL2?

The response was an average of 3.61, which is above average; but slightly diminished from last time's results. With the introduction of Blaziken and Darkrai, the tier was expected to be more fun to watch, hopefully PL brings more innovative sets and more interesting matches to the table.

2. How competitive was ORAS in OGPL2?

The response was an average of 3.92. This, compared with previous votes, implies the tier has become more competitive post-inclusion of Blaziken/Darkrai than it was over the last year. With the regular updates to resources to help build teams in the tier, we hope this increases more over time.

3. How balanced do you think the tier, with the addition of Darkrai and Blaziken, was?

With an average score of 4.15, the consensus is that the tier feels more balanced with their inclusion (compared to the previous surveys, a lot higher). This might be due to a variety of different factors, but the uptick in positive feedback during this survey likely reflects a healthier view on the tier by the players and builders.

4. Blaziken/Darkrai

With the supermajority of opinions in the survey implying that both Blaziken and Darkrai deserved to be reintroduced to the tier, the ORAS council decided to hold a vote to see if the tier was ready to quick unban both of these Pokemon instead of holding a drawn out suspect.

The council has unanimously decided to unban both Blaziken and Darkrai from the [Gen 6] 1v1 tier, effective immediately. We will continue to monitor these two in future tours, along with other suggestions the community has.

Tagging dhelmise to implement the same, thanks in advance.

5. Which other thoughts about the metagame as a whole, would you like the council to address in the future?
- Unban lax
- unban soul dew and then mega salamence and then maybe arceus-bug

Future changes to the tier will be handled on discretion, but at least after PL to address how things are turning out. We're open to most ideas on improving play in the tier, so opinions with popular community support (including but not limited to posts here + discord) will be addressed more seriously.

- Long term: Ev explanations and analysis and stuff
Short term: Updates to set comp
- We should probably update the sets comp with some darkrai/blaziken sets if these do get freed, I’m sure there’s other new sets that have popped up too.

Set compendium will be updated with Blaziken/Darkrai for sure, expect an update soon.
EV explanations seem more time consuming to do for the breadth of the tier, hopefully set names are helpful to indicate what most sets do; similarly with analyses where there's just a lack of motivated people who would be happy writing them (if you're someone who thinks they can help, let me know!).

Off the record

On a personal end, feel free to message me (litteleven on discord, smogon is fine too) if you want to ask about EVs etc, free to talk about them. My understanding of the tier at a point where there were a lack of updated resources was developed through playing test games and talking a lot with people who built teams for the tier, learning's in a better spot but I highly recommend the approach if you want to build teams for the tier in general!

Thanks for another nice survey, wish you all the best ^^ ; see you in PL!

 

[Mishlef]

1. Playerbase

Thank you to the 24 responses to the SS Survey, this was a healthy mix of answers from competitive players, pilots, builders, and casual players alike and we are very happy to hear people's opinions on the metagames.

2. Enjoyability

The average enjoyability of SS of the entire survey is 3.29 with the average for competitive players (consisting of all players who built and/or piloted teams several times in WC/PL/OGPL) being a 3.47. This notes that competitive players see the metagame as very slightly more enjoyable. There is room to improve enjoyability however the vast majority of players seem to tolerate the metagame at the very least.

3. Competitivity

The average competitivity of SS of the entire survey is 3.42 with the average for competitive players being a 3.32. This notes that the competitive players see the metagame as very slightly less competitive than the general player base. Similarly there is room for improvement however again the vast majority seem to view the metagame at tolerably competitive.

4. Regidrago/Custap:

Firstly with regards to Regidrago there is an almost perfect 50/50 split on No action vs Action with Regidrago with competitive players being similar having a 52.6% no action vote. Clearly a highly controversial topic with no clear majority the decision was made to use council voting as the tiebreaker. Similarly with Custap Berry there was a perfect 50/50 split (something something Custap 50/50s). However, competitive players did seem to be overall more tolerable of Custap Berry with 63.2% being in favor of no action. Again with no clear majority council voting will again be used at the tiebreaker.

	Mishlef​	bo_bobson​	bored_glitch​	RTM​	Waylaid​	Nick​	crow crumbs​	luser​	crucify​
Regidrago	No Action​	No Action​	No Action​	No Action​	Quickban​	No Action​	No Action​	No Action​	No Action​
Custap	No Action​	No Action​	No Action​	No Action​	No Action​	No Action​	No Action​	No Action​	No Action​

At this time No Action will be taken with regards to Custap Berry or Regidrago however we will keep this in mind for the future as the metagame develops and look into this again if necessary.

5. Other suggestions for bans/unbans

Zygarde-C: A handful of people (4) mentioned unbanning Zygarde-C and Power Construct. We will potentially look into this in the future however any testing of this metagame will be performed in a standalone suspect tour.

Mimikyu: The council will almost certainly not be freeing Mimikyu in the near future.

6. Resources

Samples: Thank you to everyone who has posted their samples we will be reviewing them and potentially editing them to fit the necessary quality we require of them and the samples will be updated in the near future.

Smogdex Strategies: We will be opening analysis to be written and if anyone would like to help write and/or QC these please feel free to reach out and we can discuss further details there.

Set Compendium updates: We will be updating the set compendium, if there are any changes that an individual would like to make feel free to reach out to me on Discord and we can discuss that further.

Overall, thank you to everyone who answered the survey we are overjoyed by the response and we would like to continue to maintain a healthy dialogue between council and playerbase. Expect changes to the VR and Sample Teams in the near future!

 

[Mishlef]

VR Shifts​

We implemented a new policy similar to SV where if there are more than half of the council members voted for S or UR then +.5 and -.5 will be adding respectively. This is to fix a slight oversight in the way we vote on mons as it makes S tier and UR tier harder to achieve compared to other tiers. Now to the shifts!

Rises:
Cresselia: S- > S
Azumarill: A- > A
Entei: A- > A
Chansey: B > B+
Heatran: B > B+
Rhyperior: B > B+
Ninetales: B- > B
Gyarados: D > C-
Salamence: D > C-
Golduck: UR > D

Drops:
Zeraora: S- > A+
Togekiss: A+ > A
Aromatisse: A > A-
Sylveon: A > A-
Rillaboom: A- > B+
Urshifu-Rapid-Strike: A- > B+
Volcanion: A- > B+
Dracovish: B+ > B
Dracozolt: B+ > B
Landorus: B+ > B
Magnezone: B+ > B
Tyranitar: B+ > B
Arcanine: B > B-
Gastrodon: B- > C+
Glastrier: B- > C+
Pheromosa: B- > C+
Swampert: B- > C+
Avalugg: C+ > C
Carracosta: C+ > C
Hydreigon: C+ > C
Kommo-o: C+ > C
Raikou: C+ > C
Buzzwole: C > C-
Roserade: C > C-
Thundurus: C > C-
Blastoise: C- > D
Conkeldurr: C- > D
Diggersby: C- > D
Gengar: C- > D
Krookodile: C- > D
Slowking-Galar: C- > D
Golisopod: D > UR
Latias: D > UR
Latios: D > UR
Raboot: D > UR
Reuniclus: D > UR
Slowbro-Galar: D > UR

 

[Kanha Greninja]

1v1 PL is coming up so im gonna put my personal SS 1v1 mon rankings i expect the player to use unusual pokemon and find developments in the meta so i will do a ranking after 1v1 PL too

 

[stravench]

View attachment 641212
1v1 PL is coming up so im gonna put my personal SS 1v1 mon rankings i expect the player to use unusual pokemon and find developments in the meta so i will do a ranking after 1v1 PL too

No way you ranked Venusaur, and Bulu that low while having Roserade, and Tyrantrum higher LOL

 

[Kanha Greninja]

No way you ranked Venusaur, and Bulu that low while having Roserade, and Tyrantrum higher LOL

i went wih my gut

 

[RADU]

Gonna knock them down one by one

BW
I think Thundurus is the one most banworthy Pokemon currently in the tier, if there is one. I really like the state of BW and the fact that people can't agree on one broken threat is the proof of it. There's definitely a case to be made for the tier to just have no bans for a while given that it's in a pretty stable state but I hate thundurus and I genuinely think the tier is better off without it.

The Sets

Thundurus (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 168 Def / 88 SpD
Careful Nature
- Toxic
- Substitute
- Protect
- Thunderbolt

Thundurus (M) @ Custap Berry
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 168 Def / 88 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Toxic
- Substitute
- Protect
- Fly

the two toxic subtect sets have quite wildly different MUs. The first one just needs to take less than 75% damage and it insta wins, the second can take that much damage but it wins if fly does a decent amount of damage.
The biggest problem is that both of these sets are just a double tect = win machine, and protect + sub generate all sort of problems for stuff like outrage confusion, 90% accurate moves, and make the reliability of a win pretty much impossible.

Thundurus (M) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 12 HP / 252 Def / 12 SpA / 232 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 30 HP / 2 Atk / 30 Def / 30 SpA / 30 SpD
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Flying]
- Grass Knot
- Focus Blast

specs is still just randomly really good cause people don't expect it so you get some neat MUs with it, this spread is prolly not even that needed its just nice to defeat gross and conk with your thund.

Thundurus (M) @ Electric Gem
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 76 SpA / 124 SpD / 52 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 30 HP / 2 Atk / 30 Def / 30 SpA / 30 SpD
- Thunderbolt
- Charge
- Taunt
- Hidden Power [Flying]
Entirely Anti-Genesect except for timid specs which can be EVd its just annoying. Also tanks Keldeo, defeats seeders with taunt flying, 5050s scarf ice beam cress but beats all others. Genuinely just a really good set and bulk is good on it + speed is nearly useless.
You can still make it the specs spread and defeat conk and gross the same and change your MUs.

The problem is yeah the fact that you can just randomly change every single one of your MUs without batting an eye. The few hard counters that beat all sets are Immunity Lax, Chople Taunt Tyranitar but you have to setguess specs or dodge two and also hit your stone edges, Crustle, Rhyperior but you have to be Custap and setguess Specs, Ferrothorn if you are good at dodging focus blasts, gem garchomp and literally that's it, 6 mons, three of which are actually completely reliable.

Maybe I missed something else or there's some random tech out there that beats thund and nothing else, but this mon is just uncheckable and bad for the tier. Banning it also nerfs lax and genesect, who are two other guys that people are calling out as broken. On that note:

This is the other guy that MAYBE i want gone after Thundurus, but potentially not. It has a bunch of good counters and most of its weird sets come with a lot of downsides. Scarf Giga Impact/Fly is still quite funny for volcarona which can run endure but you have to guess which turn to endure on or get the double. Specs and Scarf is good, Occa funkily makes it so that random fire coverage doesn't actually win. The anti crustle set is good and also doesn't have to run occa berry, I actually ran sitrus berry for conkeldurr. It's still likely pretty broken and banworthy but less so than thund.

this guy is overrated as fuuuuck. Choice Band is the only real set and I haven't actually seen anything else be brought to PL except maybe one or two exceptions. Belly Drum is cool and thats the reason half the lax counters arent actually lax counters but in reality that set sucks and you have to win every 5050 ever and you sacrifice most MUs and also need 8 moves. Stall is ok but like run a Registeel. And that's it that's three sets. It also has to 5050 the ability cause you need immunity for thund but without thick fat you can just randomly lose to volcarona or chandelure. You also hardly customize EVs because hp/spdef bulk is so inefficient and you can't really give up on attack or phys invest. Genuinely a nothingburger of a mon and if anything I'll be proven wrong in the future maybe, but if thund and gene go then this becomes even worse because it's one of the few hard counters to both of those and also after the bans there's more waters to worry about and less fires that you generally are good into.

Nothing else strikes me as actually banworthy so let's get into the good and the bad.

Good mons rise them in the VR:
insane WR and kinda forgotten but its a versatile beast
really useful into the meta but gets teched and abused a lot
super broken with both normal gem and specs
people need to experiment more with non-psychic gem sets cause this mon's biggest flaw is that it's predictable
old reliable and still hard to beat, less things tech for it rn
this pokemon is broken as fuck with the max defense dragon gem set, also so customizable and cb and scarf are still really good.
pretty demonic it always 3-0s my teams by accident
gene never fits flash cannon so you beat it, you also beat thund and you're generally a cool guy into a lot of mid tier threats.
the speed tier is good and i like the last move customization on top of it just rounding up certain mons rly well
HOW IS THIS B TIER this mon farmed as FUCK early on in the tour. Really neat and has more potential with gem sets.
chandy :3
I made a nice anti gross set that works well into the meta, beats lax, beats conk, beats gene etc.

Bad mons lower them in the VR:
maybe a hot take but I did not see a lot of this mon and it mostly cheesed MUs cause people did not guess specs
super stretched out with every set. Charti berry does not actually defeat guys like sawk with rock slide, insane.
seriously this guy was a B tier this whole tour
just really hard to build with, you are forced into a specific cb set for gene and you lose to a lot
normal gem is cool to ko lax but they can just bulk for it + its really hard to build with cause its not good into the meta
unreliable into lax and gene is so bad, and you just lose to a lot of top tiers like mana cress thund conk gross etc etc
hard to fit over conkeldurr, cress is not that insane and you are a dark type that loses to meloetta

I like current BW hopefully it stays like this for a while and hopefully gets better with thund ban + maybe gene ban.

ORAS/SM/SS coming eventually tm

 

[RADU]

eventually = rn

ORAS
There's some discussion to do about
The TR set just exploded out of nowhere and it is super demonic and hard to defeat. It requires niche inconsistent counterplay on your part. You have to run like specs magnezone and ohko it, and that still just loses to max speed protect encore disable which is another set that is funny. Specs volcanion also just loses to non-quiet hyper voice into disable into hyper voice, while scarf loses to tr -> disable. ZardX is kinda forced into adamant flame charge sd also because of mew and manaphy, specs gren with gunk was a set I liked to beat garde but it just loses to this with the right bulk, you need attack invest on gren which is ass. Can you also believe that for volcarona to win you like necessarily need to run max modest insect plate??? On top of that you can run an rng garde set and your opponent will have a stroke when you are not TR.

Gardevoir-Mega @ Gardevoirite
Ability: Trace
EVs: 144 HP / 112 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Hyper Voice
- Hyper Beam
- Encore

This is a set that I liked because it just beats random guys like venusaur with so much ease, and good MUs vs guys like mew that wanna timid taunt tr garde. It's still just a gardevoir that gets to hyper beam everything really quickly so yeah.

I'm not sure what the course of action is here, can the meta really adapt? I lowkey doubt it, there's only so much Metagross, Mawile and CB gren you can run until you just get tired. But is garde banworthy still? I genuinely don't know and some other expert has to pick up this convo.

idk this guy is the same as ever he's fine.

this pokemon is annoying as all hell to check in builder just because who the fuck knows what it runs, random item + random moves + random evs and surely you beat at least half the meta.

Mew @ Maranga Berry
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Barrier
- Taunt
- Soft-Boiled
- Seismic Toss

It never got clicked but I think this set had good potential, at least in my eyes.

Manaphy also strong for similar reasons but different type and less moves, but I liked offensive.

Manaphy @ Life Orb
Ability: Hydration
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 104 SpA / 148 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tail Glow
- Surf
- Energy Ball
- Acid Armor

good into non-timid zardx and idk i just schizod this out after building some bw so yeah.

Other sets

Dragonite @ Choice Band
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Outrage
- Iron Head
- Superpower
- Fire Punch
bulky is good you dont need speed and like you beat non-ice punch non-max defense metagross come on synon how could u

Medicham-Mega @ Medichamite
Ability: Pure Power
EVs: 36 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 216 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- High Jump Kick
- Zen Headbutt
- Low Sweep
adamant low sweep is really reliable into gyara unless they click non-mega waterfall t1 which like what

Alakazam-Mega @ Alakazite
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 248 HP / 24 Def / 236 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Protect
- Encore
- Disable
- Psychic
this mon unironically REALLY nice it gets a lot of good MUs. magic guard is so clutch for stuff like leech seeders or toxic chansey etc, you outspeed also a lot of scarf guys and guys after dd.

I learned the hard way that innovation is not rewarded in this tier and I was doing better when I was spamming zard gross gene garde slowbro every game early on. ORAS just sucks man. Surely we can fix this tier somehow.

I don't have that many thoughts on VR but I'll drop some
Mons to rise:
just consistently hard to build into and were good picks, idk if I think they're S- but I like them same/more than victini and maybe metagross rn
just really consistent and has some nice options if you are not demon bro
this mon was hella spammed the whole tour for good reason, nice MUs into top tiers generally
imposter in B+ even though I don't like it I kept losing to it fsr

Mons to drop:
this pokemon is super mega giga bad actual B- tier saw no usage and beats nothing besides zardx except it literally didnt
can only run scarf and its like decent into some guys but hard to build with
this pokemon is not good bruh, you can't actually run stall properly because mono sludge bomb loses to garde. It's kinda cool that you beat zardx reliably with charm leech seed but you still lose to sub or bdrum so yeah
lots of other random guys in the B tiers that I just didn't see all PL.

This tier is literally 10 mons, I tried to innovate and keep changing my usage and somehow my teams still all look the same.
There's some ideas about drastic metagame action to make the tier more washed down, I'm just genuinely curious what the tier would look like if we made a ban wave of zard garde gross and maybe some mew victini gren after, it looks quite fun tbh. The chokehold that these top mons have had on the tier since forever is insane, I don't know how people are still fine with not having any reliable zard answer ever and just losing to random brick break because they spam too much heatran. The guys in charge of oras have always been so super afraid of change the only thing they managed to do is ban zardy after years because the tier was too completely horrible but they still didnt wanna go through with removing the tier's identity. Someone discuss with me on this point cause I'm really curious what other people's viewpoint is

sm/ss eventuallytm but actually

 

[torterraxx]

Here are my thoughts on ORAS after playing and building it in PL:

Charizard

This guy has always been banworthy and I've had very mixed feelings about it over my time playing this tier. Early on in this tour, I thought TR Garde auto won vs it but I realized about halfway through the tour blitz+ flame charge can beat tr garde with a bit of hp investment. You want HP anyway for stuff like Lop. I found that 160 HP/ 252 Attack/96 speed was a good set for this but you can go lower hp and win I think vs garde. Darkrai is a nice addition to the tier that mostly shuts down Zard, but tomb can lose to counter (kinda not a real set anymore) and specs can lose to sp.d zard 50/50s. I think these two sets help with Charizard certainly, but neither are counters, which is a massive problem with Charizard as a whole. There are a decent amount of checks but not enough counters. I found myself using band gren a lot just because of this guy and stuff like helmet mana, which can lose to ada dd and jolly sd (not real idt) zard. Many of the top tiers in ORAS can finesse matchups but zard feels like it's in his its own league, I would support tiering action on it because of this.

Gardevoir

I dont think Gardevoir is ban worthy personally, but its close and easily the 2nd best (maybe even 1st) pokemon in the tier. It can feel restricting when looking for a counter that isnt a steel type. The two sets I liked the most this tour were TR and nascar garde, but there's a lot of different sets it can run. TR helps turn some matchups in your favor like Zard-X while still beating the core pokemon you want it to beat. I found it pretty annoying that band kyub and diance can beat TR but the set is still pretty insane imo. Like RADU said above, you do have to use certain volcarona, charizard, and greninja sets to beat Garde and you have to sequence differently with the first two then you usually would against garde, potentially losing to a different garde set. Garde can certainly finesse a lot of matchups but because of how good steels and victini are alongside some other solid checks like gren, gengar, volcarona, chansey are I hesitantly think it's fine right now.

Other Pokemon

I feel like Victini is not far off of Zard in this tier, it beating Garde reliably is so huge as a fire. WP is extremely good right now and you have to be weary of custap and even band sometimes when youre trying to beat it. Honestly, without Zard-X I feel like this pokemon could become banworthy, not that I think this means we shouldnt look at Zard-X. There just aren't a lot of solid answers to it outside of Zard-X right now and it can finesse so many matchups.

I really liked kyub and lop this tour, encore ada lop is kind of a demon that can even beat stall mew. Ada lop gets a lot of favorable rolls or kills over jolly lop like Garde but dropping the gren mu is cursed on some teams. Imprison Kyub and Band feel very strong and it's hard to counter this guy without bringing a steel type.

Chansey seems very underrated to me after I started looking at it. It can beat TR Garde with toxic and has its usual counter 50/50s, but I feel like it's solid into enough pokemon to justify a much higher ranking than where we have it (B).

I really liked building and playing with this pokemon, but it can be very frustrating sometimes. It can't ever beat everything you want and I found myself using the same partners because of it's unique hitlist. You need to be specs to beat victini reliably and you need to be modest or helmet to beat meta, both of which lose to gren. Between helmet, specs, scarf, and even AV this guy is pretty versatile and is very much appreciated as a new zard "answer". I think it's around the A- to A range.

I never felt inclined to use this tbh, it just feels like worse manaphy or gren. It does not match up well into top tiers consistently and has worse fire matchups (zard,vic) than the other waters in the tier. Gardevoir being this dominant in the tier doesn't help either, I think this guy definently needs to drop some.

This guy is kind of insane dude once I started looking at it. I noticed it 3-0d a lot of my teams and 50/50d my 1-2 in some other teams. It's very good into the steels of the tier and into gardevoir because garde doesnt usually run psychic (protect + disable can beat that anyway). Protect disable can beat choiced pokemon that would normally beat you like specs darkrai and taunt+counter makes the Charizard mu shaky. It also deals with a lot of annoying pokemon in the tier like mew, chansey, slowbro. I think this pokemon is A to A- range.

I started to respect volcarona a lot near the end of the tour. QD Insect plate can beat stall mana and garde, while also beating darkrai and slowbro, two pokemon victini and zard struggle to get past. It's also more consistent into venusaur then zard and some victinis. Unfortunately, you need to run Insect Plate (or Life orb I guess) if you want to beat TR garde, which is a necessity in my opinion. I think I would move it to A- in the VR.

I have not used or looked at Blaziken enough to give any verdict, but I'm curious what others think about it. It feels very outclassed by zard/vic and lop on the fighting side from the little I've messed with it.

 

[glitched]

okay. hi.
thoughts on ss post pl8.
this might be a bit long- sorry!

i feel like everything is explored already and yes although it is not a centralised metagame everything feels stale and bad to play for me personally, but that is a subjective criteria and there is objectively no reason to unban or ban anything rn, so what i will do is comment and report on the state of the meta, with occasional highlighting of certain mons i feel are undervalued, as well as giving thoughts on the state of the top tiers in ss. It also acts as a helpful tool for anyone who is willing / wants to learn the tier (dm me for questions or anything) (side note, ss samples are updated post pl so hf w/ that)

Data:
ss games raw replays (305 total games waow)
ss winrates
ss cores

overall the winrates of all the mons are very average, with nothing really outstanding, representative of a decentralised meta with no brokens.


Cresselia
| 17 | Cresselia | 55 | 5.69% | 41.82% | pl6
| 5 | Cresselia | 53 | 8.47% | 52.83% | pl7
| 7 | Cresselia | 51 | 8.36% | 64.71% | pl8

in pl6 cress was overshadowed by the centralising necrozma and the swarm (see what i did there) of bugs and darks that rose to counter it, and the meta as a whole was different back then. but with less togekiss, less shifus, and less volcaronas cress saw an increased usage. for anyone living under a rock or are newer to the tier, lefties cress beats fini and does standard stall cress stuff (also beats zera), helmet cress lets u gain the matchup of av power up punch gross, as well as beating zera, kee cress is for stuff like gdarm and other physical attackers, scarf is kinda bad but in theory is better into stuff like chansey and sometimes ohkoing shifu dark with moonblast.

okay not a single pokemon techs this guy wtf like actually nothing does like i was talking to Mishlef and RADU about this late this pl what even techs this guy man like fury cutter rhyp??? that loses to kee because of its non techability it is relatively easier to click on preview than for example zeraora setguessing wacan prim. its sets though hard to build with - no, actually what does this run anymore like scarf is a bad set (source: go try to build with it you will see), less people are running kee and helmet, so technically only like lefties is being run right? anyway lefties is also SO HARD TO BUILD WITH LIKE okay like go on try it for urself heres the 1 mon hitlist for the set below:

1 mon hitlist (source: Mishlef)

Cress
Scarf Kiss
Steela
Pult
Metagross
PZ
Spectrier
Scarf Fini
DarmG
Sylv
Koko
Urshifu
Aroma
Stall Entei
Band Hax
Moltres-G
Rilla
Volcarona
Zapdos
Corv
Crustle
Gardevoir
Goodra
Custap Zone
Registeel
TTar
chansey
eleki

here i have compiled a list of cress previews that to my knowledge are lefties cress:







which actually implies that people are still willing to build with lefties cress even though it is really hard to build with, just goes to show how nice of a mon lefties cress is. also here we see 4/6 teams have a water fairy, touching on that later

anyway i feel like on paper cress is a rly good mon since you will often find urself struggling against it in builder, but it is not banworthy because it just kinda sucks to build with, as well as the lack of use regarding its non-lefties sets. imo id lower cress on the vr to maybe like A+, i dont feel like it deserves the spotlight of s tier over the others.

oh there is no lefties cress in the setcomp so ill just post this right here for anyone new-

lefties cress

Cresselia (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 232 HP / 208 Def / 68 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Moonlight
- Icy Wind
- Stored Power

Icy wind is very good. Beats zera (except for lo bulk up taunt knock specifically), grounds, gdarm, prim, stall fini, koko. Bulks 2 modest scarf volcanion steam eruptions.

Cresselia (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 232 HP / 116 SpD / 160 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stored Power
- Calm Mind
- Moonlight
- Skill Swap

Bulks non-pixilate sylv hyper beam when you're at -4. Only beats sylv if they don't fake tears t1. Lefties for icy wind encore prim.

Metagross
| 5 | Metagross | 84 | 8.70% | 57.14% | pl6
| 7 | Metagross | 49 | 7.83% | 53.06% | pl7
| 4 | Metagross | 57 | 9.34% | 49.12% | pl8

i feel like scarf isnt even really that good of a set anymore like yeah you beat either one of scarf and band gdarm depending on ur evs as well as landoi and most landot with ice punch, but i feel like most of scarf gross'es (gross'? gross's?) wanted potential is all about beating chomp and stallers like chansey, which, like, it just doesnt do. And even though nothing meta wise has changed for this shift to happen, i think the rise of chomp (and also the fact that delemon and Mishlef figured out that chansey always wins vs gross last pl) just kinda lower the value of scarf gross, since before u could get away with rolling chomp with ice punch, now that is going to be more common, and you are going to lose that game because you relied on an ice punch roll to beat chomp.

av is still a nice / decent set, beating most if not all faries is always nice, and with it being able to fit power up punch for non helmet cress and stall koko makes it a really solid mon, i especially liked it last pl, though not so much now as i built more with it and realised that it isnt the end all be all fairy beater glue mon that i thought it was.

no one is using wp now like what. what happened man its still rly nice, even with the rice of prim the past 2 years creating a demand for av gross, nothing changed and i think ppl should use it more. it still beats gdarm and it still beats random stuff, although as i look deeper into what mus it gains it really just gains like haxorus, gdarm, and band pult over av's fairy filled mu spread and scarf's landos (scarf also beats a gdarm of ur choice and is better into stuff like pz). I think a lot of the panic and hype from when ss was still cg about gross being broken because technically everything 5050s it except for a few mons (eg. shifu dark clicking bulk up on wp cuz u dont ko vs scarf gross clicking trick on bulk up) died off because while yes in theory gross is broken, but so is seemingly every other mon in current day ss. in practice i havent seen a lot of ambiguous gross mus and gross sequencing, which may be contributed to the potential ease of being able to setguess it on preview (unsupported claim), or it just having less innovation rn and im interested in seeing what ppl come up with for this mon in the future if this is the case.

balloon is i think very niche in use case and is fun as a ground lure, just kinda iffy to build with from the limited times i have built with it

i think this guy is deserving of being in S-, decent not too hard to build with, pretty neat mon!


Primarina
| 7 | Primarina | 77 | 7.97% | 54.55% | pl6
| 1 | Primarina | 67 | 10.70% | 53.73% | pl7
| 1 | Primarina | 80 | 13.11% | 43.75% | pl8

the number one used mon. for two pls in a row. prim saw surges in usage during last few pls (around 3% usage increase every pl zamn) and it remains in a high spot to this day. I think especially after necro ban when the meta started to decentralise did prim really step forward and be the encore water fairy that it is today. i feel like the only problems i have with this mon (and faries in general as we will see later) is the lack of reliability against chomp, especially when the only winning sets are custap (on paper a 5050 but meh) and specs (bad, dont @me)

The ease of building with prim (and actually any of the faries, though most notably the water faries) can, to a certain extent, be seen in the stats both in its usage stats, and the stats for common cores:

+ ---- + ---------------------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Combos of 2                        | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ---------------------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Tapu Fini / Entei                  |   14 |   2.30% |  64.29% |
| 1    | Volcarona / Azumarill              |   14 |   2.30% |  50.00% |
| 1    | Primarina / Metagross              |   14 |   2.30% |  35.71% |
| 4    | Ferrothorn / Tapu Fini             |   11 |   1.80% |  63.64% |
| 5    | Zeraora / Primarina                |   10 |   1.64% |  40.00% |
| 5    | Primarina / Kyurem                 |   10 |   1.64% |  30.00% |
| 9    | Garchomp / Primarina               |    9 |   1.48% |  44.44% |
| 12   | Metagross / Azumarill              |    8 |   1.31% |  75.00% |
| 12   | Landorus-Therian / Azumarill       |    8 |   1.31% |  75.00% |
| 12   | Primarina / Cresselia              |    8 |   1.31% |  50.00% |
| 12   | Landorus-Therian / Primarina       |    8 |   1.31% |  12.50% |
| 23   | Volcarona / Tapu Fini              |    7 |   1.15% |  71.43% |
| 23   | Volcarona / Primarina              |    7 |   1.15% |  42.86% |
| 23   | Primarina / Celesteela             |    7 |   1.15% |   0.00% |

fourteen (14) out of the top 30 2 mon cores include a water fairy type, while 19 / 30 cores include a fairy type, a stat that we will look at again later when we talk about drago. I can confidently say, with my personal experience building ss this tour and even previous tours that cores like
waterfairy / fire / electric, waterfairy / fire / garchomp, and waterfairy / steel / third have no reason to be this easy to build with, and i think most if not some of the credit is due to prim just being prim, having good matchups vs spect, dragons, non av zera with wacan, gdarm and 5050ing things with custap, and theres probably more innovation like weakness policy or mentalherb in the future, id personally like to see more than 2 ev spreads on this guy to push it further. tldr, good mon, deserves to be S- or potentially even S tier, id like to see more innovation personally, more spreads etc, sucks that only some of its sets reliably beat chomp, but easy to build with and good mus across the vr.


Celesteela
| 12 | Celesteela | 59 | 6.11% | 54.24% | pl6
| 3 | Celesteela | 60 | 9.58% | 61.67% | pl7
| 9 | Celesteela | 49 | 8.03% | 42.86% | pl8

yeah so not much thoughts here tbh, but this guy kinda fell off a bit lol. it was definitely nice vs all the chomp shifu gross usage last pl, i personally built a bunch of steela then. this pl trying to build with steela was kinda meh, i didnt rly like building with it, teams were iffy at best. steel that beats chansey non id fini, haxorus, band pult, chomp, non stall azu, gdarm with occa, non smackdown lando, kiss + shifus / prim is really nice, and i do think it does deserve its place in low to mid A+ or high A.


Dragapult
| 22 | Dragapult | 47 | 4.87% | 53.19% | pl6
| 13 | Dragapult | 40 | 6.39% | 52.50% | pl7
| 16 | Dragapult | 40 | 6.56% | 42.50% | pl8

i think late into pl luser said that pult can beat like everything in the tier if u want to with all its sets. others have told me the set versitality is op as shit, i personally havent touched it much myself. if its as what they say yeah keep it in a+. no other thoughts for now


Garchomp
| 32 | Garchomp | 38 | 3.93% | 50.00% | pl6
| 4 | Garchomp | 57 | 9.11% | 50.88% | pl7
| 18 | Garchomp | 35 | 5.74% | 48.57% | pl8

this guy's fairy matchup is really fucking good for a dragon type that is supposed to auto lose to the slightest fairy hit like just look at this
and there are probably others too. being one of four ground types is really good for chomp, with good matchups into and the ever annoying , especially with its good speed tier and dragon typing that lets it take on things a ground type would normally struggle against like . my only pick against it is the ambiguity of the matchup though. seriously like when people build with either mon, they just assume that their own mon wins like what? the matchup has a lot of rng with scale hits and rolls, wisp hitting, etc idk its just annoying but otherwise its a really good mon. randomly beating water faries with life orb sd pjab is fun ig but it is not in any way reliable, so keep in A+ ty


Regidrago
| 25 | Regidrago | 45 | 4.66% | 60.00% | pl6
| 19 | Regidrago | 33 | 5.27% | 48.48% | pl7
| 20 | Regidrago | 33 | 5.41% | 42.42% | pl8

I find it quite hard to see drago as the sole defining driving force that has incentivised this high of a fairy usage when the tapus and water faries exist + sylveon + aroma are all good mons independent of regidrago's role in the tier. i think this guy is just more of a slight annoyance in the builder and banning it wont rly change anything.


Togekiss
| 2 | Togekiss | 91 | 9.42% | 49.45% | pl6
| 25 | Togekiss | 29 | 4.63% | 51.72% | pl7
| 31 | Togekiss | 26 | 4.26% | 57.69% | pl8

togekiss is mid, lower to A- or below imo. its sets have insane opportunity costs with unreliable matchups, + it is hard to build with.


Aromatisse
| 28 | Aromatisse | 43 | 4.45% | 46.51% | pl6
| 24 | Aromatisse | 31 | 4.95% | 64.52% | pl7
| 24 | Aromatisse | 30 | 4.92% | 30.00% | pl8

heres an unfinished encoredisable guide by luser


Volcarona
| 25 | Volcarona | 45 | 4.66% | 60.00% | pl6
| 27 | Volcarona | 28 | 4.47% | 35.71% | pl7
| 10 | Volcarona | 47 | 7.70% | 51.06% | pl8

ive been saying this for like a year and a half, volcarona is the best fire in the tier, beating cress spect pz gdarm non av zera is really good for one set and u have other options like wp beam for volcanion, specs for shifus, herb for koko, aroma, and spect reliability and this is just a really good mon in general. fast sub can beat haxorus if u setguess correctly, roost does roost things and maybe something like passho for prim can be looked into.


Heatran
| 20 | Heatran | 48 | 4.97% | 50.00% | pl6
| 12 | Heatran | 41 | 6.55% | 63.41% | pl7
| 22 | Heatran | 32 | 5.25% | 50.00% | pl8

i'd like to see more heatran innovation as zo has made me realise this guy is kinda nice, we made anti-zera specs heatran but never used it
:(

Heatran @ Choice Specs
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 168 HP / 88 Def / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
- Earth Power
- Overheat

custap zone x2 tbolts (idk u can prob find something better), band zera cc. spa for zera reliability. overheat for wp zera

but yeah stuff like chople bulky scarf maybe idk hf playing around with this guy i think heatran has great potential and has slipped under peoples radar for a while


Moltres-G
| 38 | Moltres-Galar | 29 | 3.00% | 37.93% | pl6
| 39 | Moltres-Galar | 20 | 3.19% | 50.00% | pl7
| 28 | Moltres-Galar | 27 | 4.43% | 51.85% | pl8

it's no suprise that i like this guy a lot, beating cress gross pult etc is rly nice and its options like helmet for ferro and chansey is amazing, not mentioning the now rarely used av and custap that just do av and custap stuff like this guy is amazing i love it

Venusaur
| 25 | Venusaur | 45 | 4.66% | 48.89% | pl6
| 29 | Venusaur | 26 | 4.15% | 50.00% | pl7
| 31 | Venusaur | 26 | 4.26% | 65.38% | pl8

my stance on sleep is a ban, adds too much uncompetitiveness for a tradeoff of little to no competitive value in what having yawn or sleep in a mon's moveset does in terms of adding to the viability of a mon (eg: ) i'd like to see further action on sleep just to make this tier's matchups a little less randomised.


general thoughts:
i think ss now is very decentralised, and although there are some really good mons in terms of balance nothing stands out entirely rn, and i believe taking any unneccesary actions will just end up hurting the tier, but i would like to see some discussion on this topic. the phrase id like to describe the tier rn is 'balanced but stale', and i think this will just be the nature of ss for the forseeable future, fortunately and unfortunately. i love this tier <3

glitched out