I wonder when the next community survey and the next suspect test are going to be.
aside from kingambit I don't see any other pokemon worth banning.
aside from kingambit I don't see any other pokemon worth banning.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
Waterpon is probs next, though kyurem is also a contender. While gambit is contentious, it probs wouldn't be banned.
really?waterpon is still a problem?
where is the problem with waterpon?
it is true that kyurem got a higher "pro-ban" percentage than kingambit, but due to the lower ammount of qualified users kingambit actually came closer to be banned than kyurem.
Waterpon is still seen as a problem by a lot of people, it's just that at the start of DLC2 it went under the radar a bit. The main issue is that its fast, powerful and has almost unresisted coverage between stabs and play rough, with the mons that resist all moves being few and not exactly viable.
Idk about the kyurem stuff, but in the last survey it did get 12 mentions and after volcs ban there have been fears it would be mega broken (though volc didn't check it tbh since draco stung it and kyurem could tech rock slide if needed).
Technically gliscor got 12 mentions as well but that mon is just fine, people are overeacting on it.
Disclaimer: I'm venting (cope)
Now that I have my top tiering contributor badge I'm going to be playing much more less SV OU (I'll explain more below):
Outside trying to qualify for OU circuit this year I don't have much of a motive to play this meta because I think it's quite awful. Every game I play is usually determined on preview (outside luck) majority of the time. There's a huge threat oversaturation, there's too many things to account for so it's hard to build a consistent team. The goal usually is how to out-broken your opponent, how much broken threats you can pack onto a team and see how consistent it wins.
I build some fun teams here and there which uses some lower viability mons (and these teams can be consistent) but it's usually better to grab 6 mons in the top 20 (usage) and go to town. So building for the most part is boring because as I said in the previous paragraph there's such an abundance of threats you need to account for, like if you're building a balance team you need to pack Slowking-Galar because of the weather threats as well as SpA boosters + carry status like (Toxic or Thunder Wave) to hinder the insane threats in the meta. There's so much unwritten rules that are already pre-determined when building like how when in doubt just stick Kingambit on the 6th slot and you'll probably end up fine lel. Like when team building you can't really throw a mon and say yeah I think it works, it has to be multi-faceted most the time. For example, Kingambit sometimes has to be a wall, it has to be your only sweeper, it has to be your Ghost resist, it has to be one of your mons that has priority, it has to have Tera Ghost for Zamazenta, etc.
I've officially been off the tera ban bandwagon, tera is here to stay and it's something that has defined this generation (I personally don't think its bad). That being said I think Tera Blast will always be something to keep an eye on, yeah great the biggest abuser of it is banned but there's still other abusers in the tier and I think that will constantly evolve on the meta.
I think this meta is still salvageable, I can't say what should be next because the meta is like a domino effect, once one mon gets banned another mon starts showing how broken it is. Which will get onto the inspiration of my post, Gholdengo is a shit mon. I'd be the happiest camper if we didn't ban anything this generation except for Gholdengo. I think because of the issue of threat oversaturation we never bring up this dogshit mon. Yeah it doesn't seem broken on paper but Gholdengo is the reason we just have Boots spam as a reliable style of team builds. People will say oh Gholdengo isn't the issue with entry hazard but then I would play devils advocate and ask to show me one fucking webs team that doesn't use Gholdengo. I'll wait. Oh Tusk is your only form of entry hazard removal (since it goes back to my original point how a mon HAS to be multi-faceted)? Let me tera Fairy / Water / Flying on the Headlong Rush and kill you with a Make it Rain, tyvm (extremely skilled lel).
I'll be maining Gen 6 and 8 OU [maybe even Natdex] (excellent metas btw) from here on out until Gen 9 OU gets palatable. Thanks
Now that I have my top tiering contributor badge I'm going to be playing much more less SV OU (I'll explain more below):
Outside trying to qualify for OU circuit this year I don't have much of a motive to play this meta because I think it's quite awful. Every game I play is usually determined on preview (outside luck) majority of the time. There's a huge threat oversaturation, there's too many things to account for so it's hard to build a consistent team. The goal usually is how to out-broken your opponent, how much broken threats you can pack onto a team and see how consistent it wins.
I build some fun teams here and there which uses some lower viability mons (and these teams can be consistent) but it's usually better to grab 6 mons in the top 20 (usage) and go to town. So building for the most part is boring because as I said in the previous paragraph there's such an abundance of threats you need to account for, like if you're building a balance team you need to pack Slowking-Galar because of the weather threats as well as SpA boosters + carry status like (Toxic or Thunder Wave) to hinder the insane threats in the meta. There's so much unwritten rules that are already pre-determined when building like how when in doubt just stick Kingambit on the 6th slot and you'll probably end up fine lel. Like when team building you can't really throw a mon and say yeah I think it works, it has to be multi-faceted most the time. For example, Kingambit sometimes has to be a wall, it has to be your only sweeper, it has to be your Ghost resist, it has to be one of your mons that has priority, it has to have Tera Ghost for Zamazenta, etc.
I've officially been off the tera ban bandwagon, tera is here to stay and it's something that has defined this generation (I personally don't think its bad). That being said I think Tera Blast will always be something to keep an eye on, yeah great the biggest abuser of it is banned but there's still other abusers in the tier and I think that will constantly evolve on the meta.
I think this meta is still salvageable, I can't say what should be next because the meta is like a domino effect, once one mon gets banned another mon starts showing how broken it is. Which will get onto the inspiration of my post, Gholdengo is a shit mon. I'd be the happiest camper if we didn't ban anything this generation except for Gholdengo. I think because of the issue of threat oversaturation we never bring up this dogshit mon. Yeah it doesn't seem broken on paper but Gholdengo is the reason we just have Boots spam as a reliable style of team builds. People will say oh Gholdengo isn't the issue with entry hazard but then I would play devils advocate and ask to show me one fucking webs team that doesn't use Gholdengo. I'll wait. Oh Tusk is your only form of entry hazard removal (since it goes back to my original point how a mon HAS to be multi-faceted)? Let me tera Fairy / Water / Flying on the Headlong Rush and kill you with a Make it Rain, tyvm (extremely skilled lel).
I'll be maining Gen 6 and 8 OU [maybe even Natdex] (excellent metas btw) from here on out until Gen 9 OU gets palatable. Thanks
Last edited:
it's as simple as ogerpon being very strong and hard to wall. it's also got deceptively solid bulk (especially w/ tera) and a decent speed tier so it's not always gonna be easy to revenge kill either
i'll always look back fondly on those first few hours of dlc1 where the masks didn't give a 1.2x boost to every fucking move. why couldn't they have just given a 1.2x boost to whatever stat the tera form boosts so the only truly bullshit one would be firepon?
Last edited:
awyp you are HIM. Gholdengo is far and away the worst mon this gen…if you could reliably defog hazards and therefore run items other than HDB and be terrified of getting them knocked off, a lot of the other threats in the meta can be manageable. Like even Kyurem/gambit. If all of a sudden you can afford to run lefties or custap or AV or the type weakening berries like shucca on styles other than just HO/Offense the tier would be sooooooo much more fun to build in. Gratz on the badge btw!
Last edited:
I personally think tera is responsible for a lot of issues, but hey I guess it will take numerous bans to get to that point for a lot of people if stuff like Weavile goes.
And while I do know tera is likely to stay, we can't not acknowledge that it is still arguably problematic and if enough pokemon have tera as a ban factor (Which I think could happen) I think people could re evaluate the mechanic being here. I still think a temporary no tera ladder should happen to at least allow the people who want tera gone to see what the meta would be like, and to at least allow people who want tera to stay tomsee how it would be, as I think a lot of people who are pro tera just don't really know what it would be like from what I have noticed. I'm not off the bandwagon yet because I know how quickly things can change with this meta, and I really think something like a temporary no tera ladder would be eye opening potentially for a lot of people who just don't know what a no tera meta would be like, as this meta is what people are used to.
Also yeah Ghold is a problem and if something like Waterpon goes I think we should look at it maybe. While it is not the best Mon it creates too many unhealthy dynamics kinda like tera does in my opinion.
I personally think the tier would be more fun if we got rid of both tera and Ghold, and I think it would singlehandedly stop a lot of threat saturation and matchup fishing because we would have more options as a lot of banned pokemon would be reasonable potentially and could be balanced. With tera allowed it really feels like we are holding the meta back from what it could be without tera. I think a temporary no tera ladder sounds like the most reasonable thing to do at this time as it is still controversial even if its not controversial enough. I still think it is important to keep discourse going about it to share perspectives, and that ladder could help pro tera players understand the stances of ones that don't want it here.
For now we should let some bans play out until we know if a tera meta can ever be balanced or not before discussing action on it again
Also gen 8 is a super underrated meta go play SS ou
Last edited:
Ogerpon-Wellspring (F) @ Wellspring Mask
Ability: Water Absorb
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 248 HP / 124 SpD / 136 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Ivy Cudgel
- Horn Leech
- Encore/Synthesis/Play Rough/Knock Off
The unholy Bulky Ogerpon. In a nutshell it makes you even harder to rkill. Since you’re still an Ogerpon, +2 Cudgel still does a shitton of damage even without investment.
+2 0 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Ivy Cudgel vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 211-249 (52.7 - 62.2%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 0 Atk Wellspring Mask Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 282-332 (70.5 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
This Oger can 1v1 Kyurem without Play Rough since Tera Water Ivy 2HKOs and you live even a Specs Freeze Dry easily.
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Freeze-Dry vs. +1 248 HP / 124 SpD Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera: 210-248 (57.8 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
So yes, you can set up on fucking Kyurem.
Wogre can also run Synthesis to keep itself healthy as Spikes continue to batter it down. Or you can just run Encore to keep doing Wogre things.
Wogre is a polarizing force that demands Dragapult, Zama, Dnite, a bulky Grass type, or Tera Dragon/Grass on your Balance builds, but honestly, the meta might be better with it around than without it. The utility with Encore prevents alot of cheese strats and punishes overly passive builds. It also stops Mola from brainlessly clicking Flip Turn. Very few things can one-shot a healthy Mola, so it can keep spamming Flip Turn or Wish to heal up its breakers/walls. Kinda annoying, but imagine not having Wogre to punish it.
Grats on the badge. It’s unfortunate seeing you lose interest in the tier cuz you’re awesome.
Imo the threat saturation issue is overblown and Volc was the main issue cause of the teambuilding resources it demands (Even then it finds a way to bullshit around you). SV OU allows for Balance, BO, and HO to thrive, which is a sign that the tier is settling down.
Players mostly picking from the Top 20 is nothing new. Any meta will have players gravitate towards the top threats. Even ADV, the most balanced and creative OU meta, has most people running Ttar/Skarm/Bliss/Pert/Rachi/Meta/Mence/Zap/Gar/Clay.
I never felt Glowking was mandatory for Balance. Obviously its THE Balance mon, but there are successful Balances that don’t have it. The threats its meant to handle like CM Val, Prima, R-Bolt, and Wake have other forms of counterplay. Sun is a non-issue and also decreased in usage, because Sun has other demons to handle like Primarina, priority, Wogre, Tera Water Gliscor, etc.
I still disagree with the take on Ghold. Boots Tusk is common and you risk losing webs if Tusk clicks Knock on the switch. The few hazard control options we have are fine. Yes even Corv is fine as long as you pair it with a wallbrraker that punishes Ghold like Samu, Hoopa, or Darkrai. Even Offense, the archetype Webs is built to cteam, runs options like Glimmora, Pult (Boots or Clear Body CB), Treads, Cinder, Hatt, etc. Hatt in particular ruins Webs since most Ribombees run Psychic over Skill Swap these days to not get 6-0d by Iron Moth.
Imo more players should experiment with Tusk’s EV spreads. With 140 SpD EVs, Tusk can eat a MiR from offensive Ghold after a layer of spikes.
252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 0 HP / 140 SpD Great Tusk: 265-313 (71.4 - 84.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery
Plus it improves its matchup with Raging Bolt.
I’m interested in hearing what you consider to be the main problem mons in the tier that lead to threat saturation.
Roaring Moon. As a returning player it seems almost obvious that this Pokemon is a problem. It get's to run max speed while still getting an attack boost off Booster Energy an item that perfectly synergizes with Acrobatics. You know Acrobatics, the perfect coverage move against two of OU's top dogs that naturally resist Dark Stab. That Stab being Knock Off btw. It also gets EQ and Brick Break to cook Gambit, DD to facilitate easy sweeps, and is naturally bulky.
I could just be bad very plausible, but how are we not talking about this Bullshit mon right now?
Gholdengo, Gambit, Zamazenta and Garg are in my opinion four big problems that have near to zero positive traits in the metagame. The first of them makes web / HO teams even more silly and the ability to negate Defog and Spin alongside all the threats in the tier is just too much. It was too much pre-DLC, DLC1 and it is right now. In my opinion.
Like, I don't see the point of keeping the mon on the tier, it forces a HDB - Knock Off spam meta that's everything but healthy.
Gambit is just dumb, straight up. I agree with making the tier as making the tier the most "fair" and competitive it can be. But then the best, most used Pokémon forces a heads or tails 50% of the end games. Unless you're running stall Gambit is the best 6th member for every team. It hits just too much even before SD, can make comebacks out of nowhere and without seeing opposing tera can also turn the game on tusk or whatever you're trying to use aganist it. You always need 2-3 mons in late to stop it. Imo this mon was a much bigger priority than Volc.
Garg in a meta where you either are Gliscor chip healing mindlessly / Clef guard or you need to run boots in order to prevail in the long run is just really good. Water/Fairy teras can just 6-0 some teams due of the sheer power of Salt Cure. Covert Cloak in this meta is not an item, if you're running gl aganist bulky hazard stack I guess.
Finally Zamazenta alongside all the threats you have to count on the builder is just too much from my point of view. Tera Fire sweeping sets loses to: T-Wave pult (which can be dealt with by a lot of mons + has to avoid getting chipped and Crunched entering in), Raging Bolt tera Fairy (this is one I think is the most viable and can deal with Zama at the same time), Clodsire (extremely passive) and i guess Skeledirge in the long run (really easy to take advantage off). If you get rid of those mons / they don't have them you'll most likely win on the spot most of the games.
Waterpon is also reaaally dumb but I appreciate what it brings to the tier
Raging Bolt’s best matchup is against balance. Offense can minimize its setup opportunities to force it to trade 1 for 1 (see Valiant Encore and Glimmora Hazards which you mentioned), while Stall can afford to stack Clod and Blissey to wall it.
Against non-Ting Lu balance, Bolt with a surprise Tera can often get a 2-for-1 or more if the opponent isn’t careful.
I no longer run Ting Lu or Clod on my balances which is why the matchup is annoying for me.
Usually I can play around Bolt okay (I wouldn’t have made 1850 if I couldn’t); but it just happens to be one of the mons that’s stronger against my teams so it requires more careful gameplay.
To be honest the mon I hate playing against the most is Garg. The matchup often feels like a death by a thousand cuts :)
I appreciate your reply and am happy to talk more team building in DMs if you’re interested.
Last edited:
Why not use Ting-lu? it't typing is much appreciated on balance checking Darkai, bolt, and Gholdengo and it's not passive with whirlwind and pretty strong eq (also i agree that garg is the bane on my existsence)
The Squad I use to break Top 200 usually involves Offensive Tusk (for spin and knock) and Spdef Gliscor (for spikes, ground immunity, knock/status absorb). Can't stack additional grounds without exacerbating weaknesses to Kyurem and Waterpon.
GEN 6 AND 8 MAIN??!?!?!? LETS FUCKING GOOO
The best OU tiers rn are 3, 6 and 8, easily. They are so much fun. If you have been SV maining for a while, play especially Gen 6 where you can literally like... teambuild... and it can be fun... You can intuitively put together team compositions with good types and some roles that are used in basically every tier, and you will find it fun and able to be used. Gen 8 is a bit more strict due to the nature of its EVs and some compositions imo, but overall its still really fun! Gen 3 is as good as always!
Oldgen goated!!!!
Date: 05/05/2024 Time: 10PM
Status Report: I got recognized today by someone from the forums. It was just any other day where I wanted to screw around before doing my homework for college with the stormy rain in the distance. The sun was hiding away in as the meadow went to sleep and with my stall team that I def didn't steal, someone recognized my named and we had a delightful chat about how we started playing pokemon and how I want to beat Pinkacross one day (it will one day trust) . It is official now; I'm now a mini smogon celebrity (ik it's small let me be TwT). One of my dreams of joining the community has happened of being recognized. Thank you TheSkyAboveUs for giving this joy.
Have this Rowlet as my thanks,
Status Report: I got recognized today by someone from the forums. It was just any other day where I wanted to screw around before doing my homework for college with the stormy rain in the distance. The sun was hiding away in as the meadow went to sleep and with my stall team that I def didn't steal, someone recognized my named and we had a delightful chat about how we started playing pokemon and how I want to beat Pinkacross one day (it will one day trust) . It is official now; I'm now a mini smogon celebrity (ik it's small let me be TwT). One of my dreams of joining the community has happened of being recognized. Thank you TheSkyAboveUs for giving this joy.
Have this Rowlet as my thanks,
game freak tends to be really awful at balancing its DLC so i'm not surprised. the 1.2x damage multiplier on all of ogerpon's moves is just as unnecessary as urshifu's unseen fist
Last edited:
someone next to me on the bus home last night was watching the knex vs quacc set and i so desperately wanted to tell him who i was but i'm not gonna hand out info like that for freeDate: 05/05/2024 Time: 10PM
Status Report: I got recognized today by someone from the forums. It was just any other day where I wanted to screw around before doing my homework for college with the stormy rain in the distance. The sun was hiding away in as the meadow went to sleep and with my stall team that I def didn't steal, someone recognized my named and we had a delightful chat about how we started playing pokemon and how I want to beat Pinkacross one day (it will one day trust) . It is official now; I'm now a mini smogon celebrity (ik it's small let me be TwT). One of my dreams of joining the community has happened of being recognized. Thank you TheSkyAboveUs for giving this joy.
Have this Rowlet as my thanks,
then he can narrow my identity down to one of the, like, 50 or so people on that bus (it was insanely crowded). that's still quite a bit of detective work he'd have to do to track me down
Ok, got washed by an Ogrepon on a Sticky Webs team.
BAN!
JK! Honestly, I’m all for a mon that can eat up Alomomola for breakfast. Sticky Webs aside, I feel that generally 110 just isn’t fast enough. A lot of Top Tier threats out speed her, and threaten her without her Tera’ing. On top of being worn down by hazards, idk, I think she is fine. Probably.
BAN!
JK! Honestly, I’m all for a mon that can eat up Alomomola for breakfast. Sticky Webs aside, I feel that generally 110 just isn’t fast enough. A lot of Top Tier threats out speed her, and threaten her without her Tera’ing. On top of being worn down by hazards, idk, I think she is fine. Probably.
Reminds me of Kyurem in a weird way where both have breaking capabilities with virtually none to few defensive answers in OU but can still easily be outsped with all the fast threats.